Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition


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Offline Sm4sh

Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« on: February 12, 2019, 06:26:35 PM »
As many know, this emulator was banned for all competitions at the end of 2018. This is because it can present decisive differences in some games like Shadow The Hedgehog, however, this rule also applies to games in which emulation does not affect and this is the case of Riders 1.
I completely agree to the ban on most games, but I want it to be allowed on Riders 1 with special rules.

Most of the post-2013 Riders community play on PC, either the PC version or the GCN version in Dolphin. The reason for this division is that both versions (PC and consoles) have a minimum difference in gameplay that does not affect the times, but affects the player's comfort. This difference corresponds to the normal movement of the character (in consoles for example, when holding left, moves a little faster to the left than in PC), but again, it is simply comfort, nothing more.
There were no problems with this rule until new Riders players uploaded their times (which they had not been able to do before the ban, since the TSC register was disabled for a long time).

Riders 1 is a racing game that has a counter of 5 seconds before starting a run, therefore, it does not affect as it does brutally with Shadow The Hedgehog. In addition, the emulator is stable on decent PCs.

My request is to allow the dolphin emulator only for Riders 1 but with these conditions:
1) Stable fps.
2) All top 5 times (including ties) and Glitchless WRs must have a video of the whole run linked in the stat comment.
3) Dolphin is the only emulator allowed.

Why do this? Because a lot of the Riders community plays in Dolphin and the other has never declared to be against emulations. In Single Segments it is used without problems.

Personally, I play on PC, but I want this game to have more players and in the case of Riders, a run of a stable emulation is as legit as that of consoles / PC.
TSC Championship titles:
Sonic Riders (2017, 2018, 2019),
Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing DS (2018, 2019)
Sonic R (2019)

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 08:59:46 PM »
I support this post as the server holder of Sonic Riders Competitive, the biggest discord server for Sonic Riders. Honestly, I think it would be incredibly unprofessional to not allow emulators for Riders, and most Sonic games in general. A more renowned site like Speedrun.com allows them completely. So I think it would be foolish to not update your policy on emulators. Especially in the case of Sonic Riders where Dolphin emulator has for all intents and purposes, perfect emulation.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 09:47:10 PM by Masquerade »

Offline Fordden

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 06:11:50 PM »
As from what both Sm4sh and Masquerade have said, I second this notion!

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2019, 07:56:47 PM »
After discussing the request with Zeupar, the intention is to keep the ban on Dolphin emulator. The site has a history of instances where players would provide tool-assisted runs on emulator as proof which made it difficult for moderators to catch cheaters. As far as allowing emulators for Riders and Sonic games in general, the community in the past had been very split on whether or not to allow them for any game. Allowing them in the first place brought about many problems, which could be avoided for the newer games by banning them earlier. Looking at the charts for GCN games on Speedrun.com there is a variety of different rules regarding Dolphin and other emulators: allowing emulators, allow specific emulators (some included Dolphin), ban emulators when achieving a time better than some threshold, emulators tracked on a separate board, and banned. The reasons for those bans or separations appear to be related to accuracy of the emulators. I could not find accuracy issues with Riders on Dolphin at 60 fps reported on the TSC forums or anywhere offsite and nothing obvious in existing videos.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

Zero Point Championships held: Sonic 4: Episode Metal

Offline Sm4sh

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2019, 12:12:51 PM »
I understand your reasons, a part of me agrees with you (the advanced glitches of Riders are the most difficult among the Sonic racing games by far), but this leaves me with many doubts.

1) In Dolphin is there a sure way to know if manipulation is used? Show fps help on something?

2) This is for all competition. If Dolphin is banned, why not ban all GCN emulators? Because by the current rules, I could use another one (if it is stable).

3)  In the case that the GCN emulators are banned, in the current rules I could use a PS2 or Xbox emulators for Riders. Why would these be allowed (if they were stable, I've never tried them) and not Dolphin (more stable emulator for Riders)? This question may also be valid for other games. I would recommend thinking well the emulators that will allow. You could make an official list of emulators allowed per game, for example.

4) Because nobody has noticed inaccuracies in Riders (because the game runs stable on decent PCs), why not create special rules for Riders? To prevent TAS problems, emulators are not allowed for top5 or top10 times, or something like that. The idea is that, at least, normal players (not necessarily top) can use it.

5) Recently, there are players who submitted Dolphin stats, but the category (Babylon Guardian Single Lap) is one of the best to get a good position without too much effort due to optimizations in recent years. Babylon Guardian is the simplest track in this game. What would happen to them? I request to maintain those times (in total, 3 Babylon Guardian Single Lap Races), if possible.


If TSC keeps the idea of banning Dolphin for all games without special rules for Riders, okay, I'll accept it. It does not complicate me, but you will take away the possibility for new players to participate. But I must say that there are solutions to their fears (which are understandable and I would also have them in the case of happening), such as allowing submit times non-top5 or non-top10, things that would help our community. In Riders you can play in 3 ways: Glitched (only 3 players are capable), 350 Speed (High Booster) and 250 Speed. At least, 250 Speed (and some 350 Speed) times could be submitted without problems, in the case of a non-top10. Special rules like this one is much better than nothing.
TSC Championship titles:
Sonic Riders (2017, 2018, 2019),
Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing DS (2018, 2019)
Sonic R (2019)

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 08:45:25 PM »
In response to your post:

1 and 4) There are likely ways that a video using tools could be made without showing the prompts that give it away regardless of what requirements we implement for emulators. This would apply to any stat, first place or not.

2 and 3) The rules have been updated to ban any emulation of GCN, PS2, XBOX, and newer consoles. (February 23)

5) Stats submitted using Dolphin while Dolphin was banned should be removed. Dolphin was banned sometime near the end of 2018. There were 5 submissions to Babylon Guardian Single Lap Races since then: OddEyesVon has a submission with video that shows Dolphin being used and will be removed. Sm4sh and xXMegaManXx have video without indication of emulator use. Submissions from Fordden and Masquerade have screenshots without indication of emulator use, are these the stats you are referring to using Dolphin?
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

Zero Point Championships held: Sonic 4: Episode Metal

Offline Sm4sh

Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2019, 04:54:04 PM »
I have information that the Fordden and Masquerade runs were using Dolphin, but they must clarify it.
xXMegaManXx and I use the PC version. 100% confirmed, noticeable by the gameplay.



2 and 3) The rules have been updated to ban any emulation of GCN, PS2, XBOX, and newer consoles. (February 23)


This rule is radical, it is understandable in non-portable consoles, but what will happen with GBA and DS games?
There are no accessible capturers (only extravagant exceptions) for these consoles and many players prefer to use emulators due to the recording.
If this rule is not modified, I can only upload ASRDS videos with a shit quality.

Make portable console an exception to this rule, please. This rule ruins the gameplay, it is very different from recording a PS3. The GBA (not SP) does not even have lighting!
TSC Championship titles:
Sonic Riders (2017, 2018, 2019),
Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing DS (2018, 2019)
Sonic R (2019)

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Dolphin emulator for Riders 1 competition
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2019, 05:51:27 PM »
GBA emulators in particular are allowed. DS isn't because of its poor emulation.

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