Idea for version differences


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Offline EngiNerd

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Idea for version differences
« on: May 11, 2008, 04:52:01 pm »
OK, I think I sent this to GS a couple of weeks ago, but he hasn't responded, so I'm not sure.  I thought I would put this in public then as an idea.  It concerns version differences; the same game (or very similar) on different consoles.  I.E., MS or GG, or SA/SADX, or SA2/SA2B.  NOT PAL or NTSC; while it may be arguably slightly easier to play, you won't see a difference between the top ranks.  It works like this:

Find the stats where the current record can not be performed on every system.  Big example: Final Egg from SA.  I doubt this one needs explaining.

Send a notification to every player in the chart by PM.  I have a feeling that this could be automated pretty simply, though I could be wrong.  Let them know all of the following information, and advise them to save their stat somewhere else.

About a week later, purge the chart.  Hopefully, everyone who really wants to keep their stat can, because they paid attention to the PM and wrote their stat down.  Reopen the chart to submissions.

When a competitor submits a new stat to the chart, include a checkbox on the submissions page for which system the competitor used.  They check the appropriate box and submit.

Now the stats can be simply sorted by which system/version used.

Rank the systems separately; when a user brings up the chart, show it all on one screen but separated as to which system.

Here's the important part: calculating points.

The player's point count is determined by ONLY the other submissions for that system.  If a player has submitted for both systems, the best of the two works.

Example: Say five people submit to the new Final Egg charts in the first day: mike89, SM, RPG, Thorn, and DsS.  Their times are as follows:

mike89 got 9 seconds on the DC version
SM got 2 minutes on the GC version
RPG got 2 minutes 10 seconds on the GC version
Thorn got 8 seconds on the DC version
DsS got 7 seconds on the DC version AND 2 minutes 5 seconds on the GC version

And all of these times were submitted.
The points are distributed as if:

DsS and SM are tied for 1st
Thorn is 3nd
mike89 and RPG are tied for 4th

Explanation: DsS and SM hold the records for their respective systems, so they each get 1st.  Second place for each system is Thorn and DsS, but DsS is already first for the DC version, and is already in 1st; Thorn is thus alone at 3rd.  mike89 and RPG hold third for each of their systems, and there are a grand total of three people ahead of them, so they are tied for 4th.

Why this is good: I think it would help competition and not give an unfair advantage to someone with a particular console.  I know I personally am that less likely to compete actively in Final Egg, because I only own the PC SADX version and therefore have no chance of coming close to the seven-something-second record for the original Dreamcast version.  I also know that there is a 99.9% chance that I will never own a Dreamcast, and that most people won't own the same game on multiple systems unless they were (no offense) clueless enough to buy SADX when they already own SA.  I feel that this could greatly help competition in a few areas; it might be a tad difficult to implement but I don't think it would be all that bad once people understand it.  As far as I am aware, this would help for the following:

Sonic 1 Game Gear/Master System (Bridge 2 rings comes immediately to mind; I think there are a couple other GG/MS titles that also have differences)
Sonic 3/Sonic & Knuckles/S3K (someone owning S3 but not SnK has a severe disadvantage on Launch Base 2 times)
SA/SADX (the large majority of the time-saving wall glitches only work in SA for Dreamcast; IIRC SM has a guide to such differences)
SA2/SA2B (the differences are pretty well spread for this; each system has its own advantages, though the big one is the extra ring in every SA2B stage)
SH (I vaguely recall something about boss times being slightly smaller in the PS2 version but I'm probably wrong)

I know, this is a lot, but any suggestions would be welcome too.  Thanks!
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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2008, 05:01:02 pm »
I totally support this for Sonic Chaos.

I don't think there are any differences in Sonic R though. Sonic CD has a few minor differences (lack to speed shoes/wall glitch and some blocked paths), so I dunno about that...
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Offline bertin

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2008, 05:07:00 pm »
Split the version differences into seperate charts?

Offline Azure

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2008, 05:15:44 pm »
Since I don't have a Dreamcast, Final Egg, Casinopolis and Twinkle Park in SA(DX) annoy the CRAP out of me trying to match the DC times.

Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 09:51:43 pm »
@ PPA: I didn't know Chaos had differences.  I was actually going to say Sonic R but forgot - I thought there was a timer issue there?  Didn't know SCD had issues either.
@ Jet: Even though there are quite a few differences between versions, there are mostly (I think in every case) far more similarities.  Also, put it this way: Say you had a Gamecube and Sonic Adventure 2 Battle.  And say SA2 and SA2B were charted separately.  How likely are you to compete in SA2?  Not likely, even if you owned a Dreamcast.  You are unlikely to (1) purchase or have a copy of both games, and (2) be willing to actively compete in both.  Now consider you also have Shadow the Hedgehog.  You'd be FAR more willing to compete in that, because it's not the SAME GAME OVER AGAIN.
@ 99189: Don't even bother trying to match the DC times, Final Egg and Casinopolis are impossible to do so on SADX.  Both involve one wall that was only made solid in DX.  Twinkle Park I'm not as sure about; the record for that (IIRC) involves using a light dash to skip the roller coaster - I think it may be possible in DX.  Ice Cap and Lost World involve walls though.
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Offline Stefan

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 11:42:07 pm »
I'm tired and in a terrible mood, so I won't fully acknowledge this post with a well written response.

So, in short:

no.

getting everyone to see a pm within a week is unpractical and unfair to all who can't get on, yet still have good stats.
changing the charts to support both systems creates even more of a disparity to those who don't own both; if you can submit to only 1, and a lot of other people submit to both, you are nicked for not having a submission at both, while someone else does.

your ranking system is arbitrary and follows no clear, cohesive logic. Why isn't thorn second? you said it was ranked by the best system they did... How would you rank the following?:

GC- 1. a, 2. b, 3. c, 4. d, 5. e, 6. f,
DC- 1. g, 2. d, 3. a, 4.h, 5.c, 6.b


is there a formula you'd derive the rankings from? or would it all take a subjective look at it.

concerning the same idea; in your example, shouldn't dss do better than sm? dss is 1st on one chart and second on another. That has to beat out just first, or else there's no point in submitting to both.

and in an irrelevant point, sm would never submit to gc only.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2008, 11:48:03 pm by Stefan »

Offline P.P.A.

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 04:28:15 am »
@ PPA: I didn't know Chaos had differences.  I was actually going to say Sonic R but forgot - I thought there was a timer issue there?  Didn't know SCD had issues either.
Sonic Chaos has a major PAL/NTSC conflict, right now everyone uses PAL. The Game Gear version never had a 50hz mode anywhere in the world, however the Master System version was only released in Brazil and Europe both of which have PAL (not 100% sure about Brazil though).

I don't know about any timer issues in Sonic R, I have the Japanese Saturn version, PC version and the Gems Collection, and so far could not make out any time attack-relevant differences between them (aside from the weather manipulation in PC/GC, but I don't think that's essential and jumping on Saturn does a just as good job). I don't know about the PAL Sonic R version though, but it seems nobody here has that anyway.

Sonic CD has a few differences. I don't know about the PC version because my comp can't run it, but there for sure are some gameplay-relevant issues in the Gems Collection port. For example, some paths (only sure about MM2's over the top of the stage shortcut)) have been blocked for no reason, iirc the Special Stages in Gems run faster than in the MCD version (or just the timer? I forgot), and the speed shoes glitch that accelerates you insanely fast if you have power sneakers on and  charge the peelout about a second longer than usual is "fixed". Which means that the CC1 strat doesn't work, and you can't run through walls in some levels (which is often relevant to RAing).
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 06:20:27 am »
I'm tired and in a terrible mood, so I won't fully acknowledge this post with a well written response.
<_<

Quote
So, in short:

no.

getting everyone to see a pm within a week is unpractical and unfair to all who can't get on, yet still have good stats.
I said from the top that it may be unpractical ... maybe actually send everyone their stats in the PM ... or their stat history.  This is the part that needs the most work.  Besides, everyone should have their stats written down somewhere, there are other things that could happen (I.E. The site goes in the toilet, and the most recent working version is from two months ago).

Quote
changing the charts to support both systems creates even more of a disparity to those who don't own both; if you can submit to only 1, and a lot of other people submit to both, you are nicked for not having a submission at both, while someone else does.
The primary reason I thought of this idea was to remove the disparity from owning one system to the other, or both systems.  Follow my logic for the rest of this message and see if you understand better.

Quote
your ranking system is arbitrary and follows no clear, cohesive logic. Why isn't thorn second? you said it was ranked by the best system they did... How would you rank the following?:

GC- 1. a, 2. b, 3. c, 4. d, 5. e, 6. f,
DC- 1. g, 2. d, 3. a, 4.h, 5.c, 6.b
a and g tied for 1st
b and d tied for 3rd
c 5th
h 6th
f 7th

The key here is, it would be b and d tied for 2nd, but with the current rankings system, if three people tie for 1st, the next person gets 4th.  So Thorn has two people immediately in front of him, he is 1st.

Quote
is there a formula you'd derive the rankings from? or would it all take a subjective look at it.
Well, the above.  I don't know, however, what the formula is for points in a chart.  It would probably be easier to describe this if I did know, can someone tell me what it is?

Quote
concerning the same idea; in your example, shouldn't dss do better than sm? dss is 1st on one chart and second on another. That has to beat out just first, or else there's no point in submitting to both.
The entire point of this is that DsS does NOT do better than SM because he owns a different system, or in this case both systems.  There really isn't much of a point in submitting to both (the only real use would be knocking back other people); however, there will be idiots who try, so a failsafe is in order.  In any case, submitting to both has ZERO influence on your score compared to just submitting your better result.

Quote
and in an irrelevant point, sm would never submit to gc only.
Tru dat.
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Offline Azure

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2008, 08:22:00 am »
@ 99189: Don't even bother trying to match the DC times, Final Egg and Casinopolis are impossible to do so on SADX.  Both involve one wall that was only made solid in DX.  Twinkle Park I'm not as sure about; the record for that (IIRC) involves using a light dash to skip the roller coaster - I think it may be possible in DX.  Ice Cap and Lost World involve walls though.
Actually, the DC Twinkle Park time is set using death barrier hax, falling into a place on the Twinkle Circut track were you'd normally die in DX. This saves about 20 seconds.
Well, at least red stats are possible if done right.
And Emerald Coast: Gamma is frustrating as heck (one of my only orange stats).

Offline Azure

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2008, 04:23:34 pm »
LOL LIFE:
I just stumbled apon a Dreamcast by accident. Hopefully I can get SA for it and beat some of my GC times.

Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 08:06:24 am »
Zeupar told me to bump this, honest.
I was talking to him about it yesterday (as he's admin now) and he said to bump the old topic so we can all talk about it again.
So yeah, I'm still pro there being some designator between SA/SADX, SA2/SA2B, and GG/MS so people who, I dunno, don't have the resources to own a Dreamcast or a Master System aren't left in the dust like this.
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Offline magnum12

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 01:47:21 am »
I'd just go for split systems with seperate rankings rather than split systems with possible overall between both to be honest. Less confusing and each competition is contained. All of my entries are with the GC version for purposes of such a move.
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Offline Cream147

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 04:12:42 pm »
I've been thinking this isn't a very big problem, but I expect when you're competing with the best, then having your console restrict you from getting the best times must get frustrating. I like the concept. But would it be more work to implement than it's worth?

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2009, 03:42:44 am »
Slightly irrelevant but probably not worth its own thread: I'm not supporting that multi-platform games should have different scoreboards. I'm just curious as to what some of the times would look like if that were the case. Mainly on DC Sonic Emerald Coast, because I've never heard of anyone getting faster than 1:08:XX on that.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 06:46:16 am »
Quote
... it's not the SAME GAME OVER AGAIN...

If you're not willing to do it, or buy the game, then why should you deserve a record for it, when compared to people who do?

This is very similar to the "let's make glitches a separate chart hurr hurr durrrr"

No.  You let the game track it, and unless it's critically unfair or has NO basis in competition (i.e. Gamma and switches for time), then you let those times stand...

What makes you deserve a first place time in a game you don't have?

You can't get all the rings in Sonic 1 without playing the JPN version... should we track that separately too?

This is a competition, and the rules have been set...

Besides, people come and go... purging the charts would mean that there are less times, as I'm certain that not everyone who has played the games and submitted here is still floating around.

and my biggest beef is with this:

Quote
The entire point of this is that DsS does NOT do better than SM because he owns a different system, or in this case both systems.

So you're saying that my 2-minute run of a level is SUPERIOR to a 9-second run of the same level?

No.  We don't track skill, or availability.  We track TIMES, RINGS, SCORES, and the like.

Get off your "fair" horse, and get back to gaming.
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Offline ieatatsonic

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2009, 03:54:29 pm »
@ 99189: Don't even bother trying to match the DC times, Final Egg and Casinopolis are impossible to do so on SADX.  Both involve one wall that was only made solid in DX.  Twinkle Park I'm not as sure about; the record for that (IIRC) involves using a light dash to skip the roller coaster - I think it may be possible in DX.  Ice Cap and Lost World involve walls though.

My friend can do the Ice cap glitch (in section 3, if that's what you mean) and Casinoopolis has an alternate route that takes about twice as long as the WR (corner by the vault in DC, Pirate ship in GC). I've skipped the coaster many times, as well. Also, after seeing Jawzun's Lost world (or whatever it's called, haven't played in a while) I wonder if the gravity glitch is on GC.
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Offline Donna

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2009, 09:36:45 pm »
I agree the purging a chart is crap unless EVERYONE on that chart consents. Still, for small charts where people are still active, I don't think it should be ruled out.

If the charts are split, the system should be set up such that if you submit to one version, you are either b& from the other, or it wipes your old stat to do so. For example, say we're talking about a given level in Sonic Adventure. Say you have an orange time for it on DX. Say you get ahold of a Dreamcast and get a red time. Either you should have to request permission to have it changed, or submitting for the dreamcast makes it like your DX time never existed, basically a suspended stat?

I understand that'd be completely ridiculous to work out, but that's my suggestion. Still, I strongly recommend you not purge any charts without the consent of every single player in said chart.
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Offline fastnaturedude

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 09:37:11 pm »
Don't even think about it.

Just because you can't go out and buy a DC/GC/whatever doesn't mean that others can't prevail over you. Stop whining. <_<

But seriously, I don't have a DC and I'm not complaining. When/if I get one I will stun you all with hitherto unexpected skills.

Offline Donna

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 10:03:32 pm »
Don't even think about it.

Just because you can't go out and buy a DC/GC/whatever doesn't mean that others can't prevail over you. Stop whining. <_<

But seriously, I don't have a DC and I'm not complaining. When/if I get one I will stun you all with hitherto unexpected skills.

For the 2D games, I can understand resistance to chart splitting due to the relative ease of emulation. For the 3D games? Do you know how hard it is to find a working Dreamcast these days? I thought one of the things about TSC is a focus on letting everyone compete? I don't have a really strong opinion on this because I'll never chart high enough for this crapt o matter and I see how trying to level the field is a hot mess, but I do find your particular argument annoying. Somewhat classist, even. What if there's a version difference between the PS3 and 360 versions of a game? Do you know what a financial burden that is to a serious competitor? If the version differences vary that's one thing, but what if they're all onesided, toward one system? What if it's the system that happens to be more expensive or rarer?

The point of the rules of submission is to allow relatively equal competition. This is why a number of glitches are banned, as I understand it, because they destroy competition. Version differences divide competition into two tiers--those who have both the choice system and the skills, and everyone else. And yet, these two tiers are not indiccated in the charts. That seems a little silly to me and I can accept that it's too much of a mess to try and fix, but I cannot accept that people who have concerns are "just whining."
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Offline Stefan

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 12:20:33 am »
Several glitches -are- banned that destroy competition.

Let's look over that again.

Every banned glitch destroys competition.

What does this mean? If the banned glitch were allowed, competition would cease to exist. In other words, any glitch that leaves -nothing- down to the skill of the competitor will be banned. Glitches that allow for infinite score or rings, or level times that are extremely small regardless of how well the level was played (for example, pausing and restarting upon hitting the goal ring in a SA2 level to get a very low time) are bannable glitches.

Version differences do -not- do this. Version differences keep competition alive, but make the owners of one particular console version advantaged. This doesn't mean a DC owner will beat a GC owner in a level where the DC has the advantage, either. Competition is not destroyed, it still exists. You can still race for the fastest time to execute a version only shortcut, and you can still compete, and often well, if you don't own the better version. For example, yoshifan and I, two SA2 players, own exclusively gamecube systems. This makes several strategies entirely unaccessable to us. Despite this, yoshifan has managed to gain a TREMENDOUS lead over the second place player in SA2, and I've managed a respectable 4th overall in the game. I think this is pretty good evidence that version differences don't destroy competition.

"What if there's a version difference between the PS3 and 360 versions of a game? Do you know what a financial burden that is to a serious competitor?"

If financial burdens are honestly your issue, you should stop competing at tsc. Even playing just a single version of sonic unleashed can ring you up 250 dollars. Newly released games cost 50-60 dollars each. Even the old games I own weighed a pretty penny on my pocket. The fact is that the video game industry is not cheap. If you DON'T want to spend the money to purchase a game on an expensive system, you don't have to. What TSC provides is an outlet for competition for those who do own the game. Splitting charts because they might be out of the budget for some is a ridiculous notion, especially considering people have different levels of affordability. Would you have the same issue if a game got released exclusively for the ps3 and we put up charts for it? Would you complain that the charts shouldn't be recognized on sitewide the same as other games because it's out of the price range of some prospective buyers?

One other thing: I have a big problem to arbitrating version difference suggestions to ONLY 3d sonic. One of the things we've been trying to accomplish at TSC over the last year or so is making a rules set that is consistent across all games. That is, if something is ok in one game, an equal strat should be ok in a different game. Letting version differences pass in games that are emulatable but not in dreamcast/gamecube games is very heavily going against the standard we're trying to set. What if acceptable dreamcast and gamecube emulators  come out (and it's not that unlikely; dolphin is able to emulate sa2:b quite well now)? Would you re-adjust the charts to go back to their old way? Would you let everyone resubmit their old stats? Or would you still maintain your new version difference algorithm?

This post isn't even addressing how unfeasible it would be to
a.) determine the console all submissions were submitted on
b.) get the consent of all submitters to purge a chart

chart splitting just isn't a logical idea, in my eyes.

That's my two cents, at least. (though with the amount of replies to anti-glitchers or chart splitters over the past year, I've got to have donated at least 30 dollars by now.)


Offline F-Man

Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 01:57:00 am »
Thread over.

Offline Aitamen

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Re: Idea for version differences
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 03:15:47 am »
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