Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
61
Competition Central / Re: Shortcut and Non-shortcut Divisions for various sonic games (SC/Non-SC)
« on: March 27, 2009, 11:04:14 pm »
0:06 involves its own special category of shortcut; it's tantamount to finding something in Mario Kart that lets you start on lap 3. There's still the matter of getting a good third lap, but just being able to start there goes a long way.
All this adds up to a completely unobjectionable run that breaks 2:30: no going through walls, no permanent time stops. Allowing those two things enables that time to be cut in half, and of course you've seen what can happen when the first four parts don't count toward the time because the game's level succession function can be manipulated.[/list]
- Tails can get about 10 seconds and doesn't need anything "SC-worthy" to do that. Time switches are in the level, they can be used, and they are the central mechanic. That much can't be changed.
- Eggman, likewise, gets about 32 seconds. There's one point where you prepare a doorway in advance by shooting some enemies through a wall, but nothing big.
- Rouge can get to the time switch in 10 seconds and introduces the first arguable trick of the level: you can dive down from the switch to the floor so fast that you can play the rest of the section without time counting up at all. So if you allow that, it's an easy 10. Otherwise, I don't have a definitive run with a "good" time. Looking at my other videos, I have one with a 49-second Rouge section without hitting any time switches, and a 39-second one without scoring any points. The mid cutscene runs 8 seconds, and the end cutscene is 12...overall I think that with timestops but not a permanent one, this section goes to about 26.
- In my most recent route for Knuckles, I can get to the end in under 13 seconds, but you'd almost certainly find that objectionable: it's possible to go through the walls of the starting room, then glide through orange space directly to the ending room with the switch. That, however, would only get about 19: to go to 13 you need to take the further step of sidetracking to one of the time switches and hit it from the wrong side of the wall, so that you stop time and can continue to make that glide to the end. Another, more well-known breakout goes to Rouge's room, then up through the acid ceiling and again glides to the finish. This is good for about 22, or 18 with underwater glides. I haven't tried this part without going through walls in a long time, but from what I remember of the "standard route" topology, 35 seconds here sounds about right. And no, Knuckles doesn't swim any faster or slower than Rouge, with the obvious exception that Knuckles has the potential to go faster in a theoretical body of water that takes more than 30 seconds to cross (too bad that doesn't exist).
- Sonic gets a time switch right after you first gain control in that section, just over 5 seconds in. There's another permanent stop that works here to allow that first time switch to dictate the finishing time for the whole level. Again, if you don't like that, the first time switch still gets hit at 5, the second one at...let's say 13, the third one is skipped because it ruins your momentum, and then I think it's about a second faster to tag switch 4 than to just play up the running slide. If time is running at the top of the slide, it's another 25 seconds from there to the goal ring; it won't be, so I'm seeing 38-40.
All this adds up to a completely unobjectionable run that breaks 2:30: no going through walls, no permanent time stops. Allowing those two things enables that time to be cut in half, and of course you've seen what can happen when the first four parts don't count toward the time because the game's level succession function can be manipulated.[/list]
62
Competition Central / Re: Shortcut and Non-shortcut Divisions for various sonic games (SC/Non-SC)
« on: March 24, 2009, 11:40:46 pm »
We already have the coding in place, and could put these new charts into place almost at will. In fact, for Sonic R this is almost a done deal, and of course S3 2P zones already have this treatment. There are, of course, a few problems:
-How do we get around the issue of charts counting twice? If breaking a level gives you the incentive that its chart now counts twice (one SC and non-SC), then there's still reason to look for new breaks. Unlike Mario Kart, which keeps its SC and non-SC rankings completely separate, in TSC all charts eventually converge in the sitewide rankings, and having more submissions (perhaps by virtue of getting more charts created in the game) results in a higher rank. The more broken a game gets, the more it counts in the sitewide? Seems like a rather unintended consequence. You could fix this by assigning one set a weight of 0, so that they're "just for fun" and don't count for anything, but then you either: make the SC charts authoritative, in which case the charts that count are "SC for the levels that have them plus non-SC for the rest" and some non-SC charts that count and some that don't will just confuse everyone; or make non-SC the only thing that counts, at which point we have a TG-like "Once your methods become too good, you can't use them anymore except in a token competition that doesn't really count" fiat and lose much of the splendor of excelling at Sonic.
-What about breaks that are the result of version differences? Eternal Engine immediately comes to mind here, and there may be stuff in the Game Gear/Master System games that also fits under this. Right now having all applicable versions of a game does benefit you in the case that there's a difference that only one version can exploit, but at least with the other version you can still submit and be some ways back depending on the level. Once you go SC, those without the SC-able version don't even have a claim to submit anything at all to the chart. On TSC that also excludes them from any applicable Total divisions the missing chart is a part of, so this could stretch the version differences to be even more impactful than they already are--something else to take into the point 1 considerations. (Sure Unleashed already has split-game charts that prevent each version from accessing an entire set of charts, but Sega pretty much forced our hand there, and besides that game is garbage.)
-And again there's that 800-pound gorilla (or is it a 600-pound cat?), subjectively determining what gets the SC treatment. Obviously if this goes through, let's say for Death Chamber 3, jumping up into the corner light and taking that out of bounds would land you in SC. But what about the out of bounds in the final room, where you bounce off the hourglass, up through the ceiling, and reemerge just half a second later? Would we be able to do that in a non-SC or not? Which of the big tricks in Cannon's Core would be allowed non-SC and which wouldn't? Is Security Hall 5 SC-worthy for the red emerald, the blue (version-exclusive), both, or neither? I don't know if you've seen it, but SDM's recent Launch Base 2 run with Tails is really wacky, involving lots of stuff that's not supposed to happen, including a glitch setup that's required to be carried over from the previous level, and some of the tricks it takes can be used in other levels to land them squarely in SC-land. Do we add SC charts for rings (as oxymoronic as that sounds, given that the level takes 10 minutes to do that way)? Does this SC free-for-all give us pretense to reinstate Launch Base 1 "run up as many points as you can for as long as you feel comfortable, then hurry to the end and beat the boss"?
All in all, another wishful call for action, the same problems as last time we went over this.
-How do we get around the issue of charts counting twice? If breaking a level gives you the incentive that its chart now counts twice (one SC and non-SC), then there's still reason to look for new breaks. Unlike Mario Kart, which keeps its SC and non-SC rankings completely separate, in TSC all charts eventually converge in the sitewide rankings, and having more submissions (perhaps by virtue of getting more charts created in the game) results in a higher rank. The more broken a game gets, the more it counts in the sitewide? Seems like a rather unintended consequence. You could fix this by assigning one set a weight of 0, so that they're "just for fun" and don't count for anything, but then you either: make the SC charts authoritative, in which case the charts that count are "SC for the levels that have them plus non-SC for the rest" and some non-SC charts that count and some that don't will just confuse everyone; or make non-SC the only thing that counts, at which point we have a TG-like "Once your methods become too good, you can't use them anymore except in a token competition that doesn't really count" fiat and lose much of the splendor of excelling at Sonic.
-What about breaks that are the result of version differences? Eternal Engine immediately comes to mind here, and there may be stuff in the Game Gear/Master System games that also fits under this. Right now having all applicable versions of a game does benefit you in the case that there's a difference that only one version can exploit, but at least with the other version you can still submit and be some ways back depending on the level. Once you go SC, those without the SC-able version don't even have a claim to submit anything at all to the chart. On TSC that also excludes them from any applicable Total divisions the missing chart is a part of, so this could stretch the version differences to be even more impactful than they already are--something else to take into the point 1 considerations. (Sure Unleashed already has split-game charts that prevent each version from accessing an entire set of charts, but Sega pretty much forced our hand there, and besides that game is garbage.)
-And again there's that 800-pound gorilla (or is it a 600-pound cat?), subjectively determining what gets the SC treatment. Obviously if this goes through, let's say for Death Chamber 3, jumping up into the corner light and taking that out of bounds would land you in SC. But what about the out of bounds in the final room, where you bounce off the hourglass, up through the ceiling, and reemerge just half a second later? Would we be able to do that in a non-SC or not? Which of the big tricks in Cannon's Core would be allowed non-SC and which wouldn't? Is Security Hall 5 SC-worthy for the red emerald, the blue (version-exclusive), both, or neither? I don't know if you've seen it, but SDM's recent Launch Base 2 run with Tails is really wacky, involving lots of stuff that's not supposed to happen, including a glitch setup that's required to be carried over from the previous level, and some of the tricks it takes can be used in other levels to land them squarely in SC-land. Do we add SC charts for rings (as oxymoronic as that sounds, given that the level takes 10 minutes to do that way)? Does this SC free-for-all give us pretense to reinstate Launch Base 1 "run up as many points as you can for as long as you feel comfortable, then hurry to the end and beat the boss"?
All in all, another wishful call for action, the same problems as last time we went over this.
63
Leaderboard Disputes / son1cgu1tar - Biolizard
« on: February 12, 2009, 01:33:25 pm »
You present 1:03.19 on the prototype, and link it to this. Sure that video shows a 1:03.19...
...to me, it also shows autofire.
First off, I just ran a test of the homing attack in SA2. It turns out that after a jump, if you press A again within four frames, that A press is completely ignored. Homing attack A presses need to be at least 5 frames apart.
That said, after looking through the frames of that video, the homing attacks are consistent with 5...5...5...5 every time. Notably, this includes the one at the beginning for the acceleration boost, and there are no other jumps during "dead time" segments between hits. The only jumps/bounces that aren't followed 5 frames later by homing attacks are the ones into the lizard, and those don't appear to be particularly high jumps--as though it was a tap of A, released within 4 frames.
Of course, even the predators who walked into Chris Hansen's house got a chance to defend themselves, so if you have anything to say, now's your chance.
...to me, it also shows autofire.
First off, I just ran a test of the homing attack in SA2. It turns out that after a jump, if you press A again within four frames, that A press is completely ignored. Homing attack A presses need to be at least 5 frames apart.
That said, after looking through the frames of that video, the homing attacks are consistent with 5...5...5...5 every time. Notably, this includes the one at the beginning for the acceleration boost, and there are no other jumps during "dead time" segments between hits. The only jumps/bounces that aren't followed 5 frames later by homing attacks are the ones into the lizard, and those don't appear to be particularly high jumps--as though it was a tap of A, released within 4 frames.
Of course, even the predators who walked into Chris Hansen's house got a chance to defend themselves, so if you have anything to say, now's your chance.
64
Wikkity! / Re: Pro Bowl 2009
« on: February 03, 2009, 12:48:55 pm »
Right, it's not the NFL third-place game. The teams aren't "Eagles-Ravens".
65
Wikkity! / Re: Pro Bowl 2009
« on: February 03, 2009, 11:48:20 am »
Do you even know what the Pro Bowl is?
66
Wikkity! / Re: Super Bowl 43
« on: February 02, 2009, 01:42:28 pm »A 26 to 27 is better than a 23 to 27 you know.
No, it isn't. They'd still lose the game, and a field goal would be a completely moronic decision that leaves them no chance to win where a deep ball to the end zone might. You don't get remembered for "getting within one point of the other team at the Super Bowl", you get remembered for winning the damn game.
I ran a simulation on Troy Aikman NFL Football (Genesis, 1994) and the Steelers wound up winning 80-3 despite getting no first downs and being dominated on time of possession (10 offensive plays total). That game was silly like that.
67
Competition Central / Re: 2-for-1 Ring
« on: January 13, 2009, 11:44:22 am »
Doesn't everyone remember Emerald Hill 1, with the triangles on top of the last loop?
68
Wikkity! / Re: I want to apologize
« on: January 10, 2009, 11:30:13 pm »I don't cheat. If I have to, i do
"I can contradict myself in five words!"
"ShadowFan2, contradict that statement."
69
General Sonic / Re: stupid SADX glitch
« on: January 01, 2009, 04:20:32 pm »
You wouldn't be playing with Metal Sonic, would you?
70
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: December 01, 2008, 03:06:02 pm »
Bear in mind that heading too far right, too early, meets another one of those side kill planes, and time spent moving right is time not spent moving up. There's little chance of being able to make the walkway with two 10s and a spring, never mind anything higher.
"Bouncing through the hole" doesn't really take any sort of precision; it's more like a big void from all the way up there. You do at least have to be sure to strafe around the side of the tower; scraping the wall itself is a big letdown there.
As far as applying the trick to other stages, it seems Final Rush is just looser in that regard. None of the other stages let you sustain anything like that, except maybe Crazy Gadget which I haven't tried for the simple reason that its layout just doesn't have anything to use it on.
"Bouncing through the hole" doesn't really take any sort of precision; it's more like a big void from all the way up there. You do at least have to be sure to strafe around the side of the tower; scraping the wall itself is a big letdown there.
As far as applying the trick to other stages, it seems Final Rush is just looser in that regard. None of the other stages let you sustain anything like that, except maybe Crazy Gadget which I haven't tried for the simple reason that its layout just doesn't have anything to use it on.
71
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: December 01, 2008, 10:14:40 am »
I just don't see any way the FR trick can work out, so that level is safe for now.
I went ahead and used the technique for something by putting it into a lowscore at hard mode, but even that variation probably won't turn out useful, as I'm sure you can get there by other means in less than 43 seconds. What I really wanted to do was go around the right side of the tower, but hitting the edge of that pink section--regardless of height--led to a fall out every time, so thank Sonic Team for being security-minded at least in one place.
I haven't yet checked to see what other ramifications might be had from variations of the trick, but for all I know every Sonic stage could be up for grabs.
I went ahead and used the technique for something by putting it into a lowscore at hard mode, but even that variation probably won't turn out useful, as I'm sure you can get there by other means in less than 43 seconds. What I really wanted to do was go around the right side of the tower, but hitting the edge of that pink section--regardless of height--led to a fall out every time, so thank Sonic Team for being security-minded at least in one place.
I haven't yet checked to see what other ramifications might be had from variations of the trick, but for all I know every Sonic stage could be up for grabs.
72
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: November 30, 2008, 03:59:44 pm »
Actually it's more like this:
You start in the upper left yellow square. The ending should be obvious.
You start in the upper left yellow square. The ending should be obvious.
73
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: November 29, 2008, 11:30:02 pm »
I just came here to say this:
Don't be surprised if Final Rush gets another time saver, this one in the range of...oh, probably about a minute.
No I haven't worked out the details yet, but right now I'm one obstacle away from making it happen.
Don't be surprised if Final Rush gets another time saver, this one in the range of...oh, probably about a minute.
No I haven't worked out the details yet, but right now I'm one obstacle away from making it happen.
74
News and Updates / Re: And now for some good news!
« on: November 19, 2008, 11:38:36 pm »
Just for reference, I don't think that explanation of supergliding is right. It's because the act of entering glide triggers an immediate 2-pixel drop, resulting in quite a large negative acceleration for the frame in question. Normally after that frame is over, you go back to standard glide drop rates and the 2 pixels aren't taken into account thereafter, but if the drop puts you into an enemy hitbox, it does see those 2 pixels as part of your downward velocity, and therefore as part of the upward velocity you get after the bounce (in effect, getting a long-term effect out of something that usually only lasts for a single frame).
75
Competition Central / Re: Idea for some challenges
« on: November 19, 2008, 11:26:42 pm »
There are already plans to have that up on TUSC.
76
Competition Central / Re: DarkerSuperSonic just PWNED the entire world at Death Egg (S2)
« on: November 18, 2008, 05:47:55 pm »
I don't know...why does the linked run use an SDA logo when SDA appears to have no record whatsoever of this run?
77
General Sonic / Re: lol hijacked topic (Interesting Sonic Adventure/2/DX/2B screenshots)
« on: November 13, 2008, 12:37:52 am »78
General Sonic / Re: lol hijacked topic (Interesting Sonic Adventure/2/DX/2B screenshots)
« on: November 12, 2008, 10:57:13 pm »
Omochao puts this one best: "Who am I? ...Where am I?"
And more:
(No, not 10, but 15 animals. Nice try.)
79
General Sonic / Re: Eggman is the evil one? A fic by Wetflame from the other point of view.
« on: November 01, 2008, 10:43:41 am »
That sounds a lot like it was actually written by Rolken...
80
Competition Central / Re: TSC Data Archiving Workbook
« on: October 24, 2008, 05:44:44 pm »
So use .ods! The Other ISO-Approved Standard(tm)!
82
Bugs / Re: Negative time online
« on: October 03, 2008, 08:06:38 am »
The servertime was off sync by 91 days (7862400 seconds), and adding that to Groudon's negative value would yield a result that's consistent with 51+ days, so it would make sense that they just needed to have 7862400 added.
83
Competition Central / Re: 50th Video Special
« on: October 02, 2008, 02:55:13 am »
Sonic 2, with a DDR pad as your controller.
Just because.
Just because.
84
Wikkity! / Re: Post your voice!
« on: September 18, 2008, 06:05:47 pm »
I won't bother with that passage, but between the six parts of the Announcer Chronicles series that's almost 5 hours total, and enough to to hear any sound the passage could try to stress, many times over.
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3f-4g4kLiM (at this point I was definitely trying to alter my voice for a self-perceived "announcer" role)
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDfiRDCcus4 (still some remnants of that forced accent, but after this part it pretty much vanishes)
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRoe6dYiv0
part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKBfpC3cfYM
part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifh-CprO9wI (here I invoke my quieter voice to represent a second character, though there have been complaints that it's too hard to hear against the background static and game soundtrack)
part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXAqYp4jE24 (Want a fun way to destroy your voice for a while? Talk nonstop for this long.)
part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3f-4g4kLiM (at this point I was definitely trying to alter my voice for a self-perceived "announcer" role)
part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDfiRDCcus4 (still some remnants of that forced accent, but after this part it pretty much vanishes)
part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KRoe6dYiv0
part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKBfpC3cfYM
part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifh-CprO9wI (here I invoke my quieter voice to represent a second character, though there have been complaints that it's too hard to hear against the background static and game soundtrack)
part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXAqYp4jE24 (Want a fun way to destroy your voice for a while? Talk nonstop for this long.)
85
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: I really hate doing this
« on: August 29, 2008, 06:26:59 pm »
In which case 2:03 is...what?
86
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: how can sadisticmystic do a level in 1 second?
« on: August 16, 2008, 08:43:19 pm »
Also portal guns.
87
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Attention Brian_pso
« on: August 06, 2008, 05:33:18 pm »
This confirms a trick I've been suspecting for a while.
Back when the SA2 BBS was still up, Japanese rankings had this level possessing a Dreamcast-only shortcut that reportedly yielded 1:22. The reported achiever never came to defend the time afterwards, or provide any details, but as I went through the pages of past discussions I read something that appeared to say that DC can land on an invisible floor somewhere among the glut of invisible walls surrounding the tree climb. Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine more details from that discussion alone, but picture 5 in that archive gave me just the missing piece.
Here's what needs doing:
The climb starts normally, springing up 1, 2, 3 times. Don't continue on to the 4th spring, but instead jump onto the wooden rail and do a spindash (don't jump!) toward the screen. Actually the proper angle is somewhere between "straight into the screen" and "follow the direction of the rail". If it's done right (and remember, part of doing it right means having the Dreamcast) you land in what appears to be midair, and can then launch a spindash jump to cut out the rest of the climb and go straight to the bungee destination.
Given that the alleged 1:22 dates back at least as far as the best Japanese run on GC was in the 1:41s, is there something further that cuts off 6 more seconds, beyond just speed retention? Who knows.
Back when the SA2 BBS was still up, Japanese rankings had this level possessing a Dreamcast-only shortcut that reportedly yielded 1:22. The reported achiever never came to defend the time afterwards, or provide any details, but as I went through the pages of past discussions I read something that appeared to say that DC can land on an invisible floor somewhere among the glut of invisible walls surrounding the tree climb. Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine more details from that discussion alone, but picture 5 in that archive gave me just the missing piece.
Here's what needs doing:
The climb starts normally, springing up 1, 2, 3 times. Don't continue on to the 4th spring, but instead jump onto the wooden rail and do a spindash (don't jump!) toward the screen. Actually the proper angle is somewhere between "straight into the screen" and "follow the direction of the rail". If it's done right (and remember, part of doing it right means having the Dreamcast) you land in what appears to be midair, and can then launch a spindash jump to cut out the rest of the climb and go straight to the bungee destination.
Given that the alleged 1:22 dates back at least as far as the best Japanese run on GC was in the 1:41s, is there something further that cuts off 6 more seconds, beyond just speed retention? Who knows.
88
Rules Revisions / Re: SA(DX) Gamma Hot Shelter Freestyle
« on: August 02, 2008, 03:28:16 pm »
Not only that, but on DC the timer isn't limited to 99:59 (rather to 127:59). The display is really quirky for times of 100 minutes or more, to the point that you can never actually view the full time, and that led to the previous discussion on the matter.
89
Rules Revisions / Re: S3K glitch question
« on: July 08, 2008, 08:00:24 pm »5) Hit both of the bosses 7 times.
You mean 5 times, as act-1 bosses require only 6 hits.
In any case, yes, those both fall under illegal modification of the start position. Icecap 2 has a similar trick by flat-out skipping the act 1 boss and playing against the act 2 boss as though it were still act 1: capsule hit gives act 1 clear, and you start act 2 just a spindash away from advancement to Launch Base without even a clear screen.
90
Competition Central / Re: SA2(B) - Dry Lagoon M2 Strat?
« on: June 09, 2008, 08:03:34 pm »
Basically it comes down to this:
-Kick out of the starting circle, getting 1 ring along the way--you're not interested in maximizing rings from that, just one will do
-Now head to the turtle guards and run into one, getting hit. You lose your ring (irrelevant), and the back ring now appears at start
-Go to the back and climb the pillar, jumping off once you can hit the midair 20 box
-From the 20, glide to one side to get a 10 box, then get another 20 that's on the ledge above start
-Drop down and head over to the back ring, making all rings reappear while you keep the 50 you have
-Now get the same 50 but in reverse order: first climb up, then go to the side, then finish off by the pillar (the second go-round will take about 10 seconds)
-Kick out of the starting circle, getting 1 ring along the way--you're not interested in maximizing rings from that, just one will do
-Now head to the turtle guards and run into one, getting hit. You lose your ring (irrelevant), and the back ring now appears at start
-Go to the back and climb the pillar, jumping off once you can hit the midair 20 box
-From the 20, glide to one side to get a 10 box, then get another 20 that's on the ledge above start
-Drop down and head over to the back ring, making all rings reappear while you keep the 50 you have
-Now get the same 50 but in reverse order: first climb up, then go to the side, then finish off by the pillar (the second go-round will take about 10 seconds)
The Sonic Center v3.9
Copyright 2003-2011 by The Sonic Center Team.