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61
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: i call suspicion on llcooldave
« on: September 17, 2009, 09:42:52 pm »
I just played Gnarly myself, and I agree that a time of 257 or better should be doable. I got 260 on the GBA version (which isn't allowed for competition, but should only have fairly small differences).
Anyway, I think all suspicions are cleared here for now, so no proof will be needed.
Anyway, I think all suspicions are cleared here for now, so no proof will be needed.
62
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: i call suspicion on llcooldave
« on: September 13, 2009, 12:37:31 am »
I know LLCoolDave visits Speed Demos Archive often, so if I see him in the SDA chat then I'll ask him about this. At one point he registered to the Mario Center and dropped off his SMW stats that he achieved a long time ago. It's possible that a time was entered incorrectly by accident, or something. I do think he was well aware of the start-without-powerups rule, though.
63
Competition Central / Re: Super Mario Brothers DX
« on: September 01, 2009, 02:28:45 pm »
Nice job, some of your records look really good. I'm mostly playing other games right now, but I could give you some occasional competition here. I remember I had good strategies on most of the You vs. Boo levels before, but didn't get around to perfecting them or writing down my times.
64
Competition Central / Re: Super Mario Brothers DX
« on: August 29, 2009, 03:29:11 pm »
Yeah, I'm aware that koopa shell abuse leads to higher scores, but I really wasn't sure what to do about it. It's possible to accidentally kick a shell twice, and ideally we don't want to prevent things that you'd just do by accident while playing normally. I think this is the reason why TSC has usually allowed "point-scalping" tricks just like these. Personally though, I don't like the idea of the (main) competition getting really repetitive. I love playing the game normally as much as you do, and so all of my scores so far were obtained without shell abuse.
By the way, I'm fairly sure that many of the N64HS scores were done with basic repetitive shell kicking, but there's an additional trick that leads to even higher scores in some levels. If you check out David Wonn's site, you can find an explanation of the trick: http://davidwonn.kontek.net/gameboy.html#S
By the way, I'm fairly sure that many of the N64HS scores were done with basic repetitive shell kicking, but there's an additional trick that leads to even higher scores in some levels. If you check out David Wonn's site, you can find an explanation of the trick: http://davidwonn.kontek.net/gameboy.html#S
65
General Discussion / Re: Speedrun of completing a game.
« on: July 23, 2009, 12:50:36 am »
I haven't completed any Mario speedruns myself, but I'm considering doing a 61-star speedrun of Mario Galaxy.
Do you know of a site called Speed Demos Archive? They have a lot of very good speedruns there.
Do you know of a site called Speed Demos Archive? They have a lot of very good speedruns there.
66
Introductions / Re: Good Mornin'
« on: July 17, 2009, 09:41:37 pm »
Hey there. The Mario Center has never been very active, but it's been slightly better than normal lately. Though, either way, the charts are always up for competition. What games were you thinking of competing in?
67
Mario News / About Super Mario Land 3: Wario Land
« on: July 16, 2009, 12:48:30 pm »
Charts for Wario Land are up. However, please don't bother submitting Coin stats yet. Just after adding the coin charts, I've remembered one point that may hamper competition: the randomness of getting coins from breakable blocks. Sorry for the unprofessionalism, but even though I went and added them, we must decide whether the coin charts should be kept or not.
Also, certain courses are not up for Times because we need a ruling on courses that change as the game progresses. At certain points, courses 1, 3, and 31 get water level changes, and course 10 becomes a different course, course 13. To compete in the before-change version of the course, you would have to start a new file (separate from the completed file you would usually use) just for that course.
So here are my questions to all of you:
(1) What should we do about the coin charts? (a) keep them and count them toward the overall ranking, (b) keep them and don't count them toward the overall ranking, or (c) delete them?
(2) What should we do about changing courses? (a) have one chart per changing course, just for the after-change version, (b) have one chart per changing course, allowing both versions of the course, or (c) have two charts per changing course, one for the before-version and one for the after-version?
[EDIT] Please see Reply #2 in this topic for current decisions, which should take effect fairly soon.
Also, certain courses are not up for Times because we need a ruling on courses that change as the game progresses. At certain points, courses 1, 3, and 31 get water level changes, and course 10 becomes a different course, course 13. To compete in the before-change version of the course, you would have to start a new file (separate from the completed file you would usually use) just for that course.
So here are my questions to all of you:
(1) What should we do about the coin charts? (a) keep them and count them toward the overall ranking, (b) keep them and don't count them toward the overall ranking, or (c) delete them?
(2) What should we do about changing courses? (a) have one chart per changing course, just for the after-change version, (b) have one chart per changing course, allowing both versions of the course, or (c) have two charts per changing course, one for the before-version and one for the after-version?
[EDIT] Please see Reply #2 in this topic for current decisions, which should take effect fairly soon.
68
General Discussion / Re: Coin charts
« on: July 15, 2009, 03:34:15 pm »
Coins for the Super Mario Bros. series (and NSMB):
Your coin count carries over to the next level, so you would have to keep track of how many coins you have when the level starts. Then at the end of the level you'd do subtraction. It's not rocket science, but a few people have agreed that it's too prone to making mistakes when submitting.
Also, this is just my personal opinion, but: many of the levels, particularly in SMB1 and SMB2J, would be pretty easy to max out for coins except for the multi-coin blocks, which may or may not require perfect jump timing to max out. To me, it doesn't sound all that fun in theory, though to be fair I haven't tried it in practice.
Coins for the 3D Mario games (64, Sunshine, 64DS, Galaxy):
SM64 I'm not too sure about, because SM64 competition is covered well by sm64.com, and we want to focus on making charts which are not very well covered by other sites. SM64DS seems okay to add though. Sunshine and Galaxy are good, we just have to make a couple of decisions. For Sunshine, we should decide whether to allow/disallow infinite coin tricks. For Galaxy, we should decide whether to add charts per galaxy or per star.
Your coin count carries over to the next level, so you would have to keep track of how many coins you have when the level starts. Then at the end of the level you'd do subtraction. It's not rocket science, but a few people have agreed that it's too prone to making mistakes when submitting.
Also, this is just my personal opinion, but: many of the levels, particularly in SMB1 and SMB2J, would be pretty easy to max out for coins except for the multi-coin blocks, which may or may not require perfect jump timing to max out. To me, it doesn't sound all that fun in theory, though to be fair I haven't tried it in practice.
Coins for the 3D Mario games (64, Sunshine, 64DS, Galaxy):
SM64 I'm not too sure about, because SM64 competition is covered well by sm64.com, and we want to focus on making charts which are not very well covered by other sites. SM64DS seems okay to add though. Sunshine and Galaxy are good, we just have to make a couple of decisions. For Sunshine, we should decide whether to allow/disallow infinite coin tricks. For Galaxy, we should decide whether to add charts per galaxy or per star.
69
Introductions / Re: Hi
« on: July 15, 2009, 02:36:28 pm »
Welcome, hope you enjoy competing here. Let us know if you have any questions.
70
Mario News / Re: Super Mario World rule change; new game additions
« on: July 08, 2009, 03:43:18 pm »
This is a message to everyone in the Mario Center. It's a news post.
71
Mario News / Super Mario World rule change; new game additions
« on: July 08, 2009, 12:08:55 am »
First of all, rankings for Super Mario World PAL have been added, so Europeans and Australians don't have to play on emulator to compete. Sorry for not adding this ranking earlier.
Second, Super Mario Advance 2, the Game Boy Advance version of Super Mario World, is no longer allowed for SMW times. The reason is that the GBA version has some notable differences from the SNES versions, and we don't know of the full extent that the differences affect competition. Once we have more collective experience with Super Mario World, we may or may not choose to re-allow the GBA version or create separate rankings for it. But for now, disallowing the GBA version seems to be the safest plan. The same reasoning goes for the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 and the GBC version of Super Mario Bros. (although these versions were already disallowed for a while).
What if you already submitted SMW stats that you got with the GBA version? If possible, please replace your GBA-played submissions with your best SNES times. Though, the most important thing is that everyone uses SNES from here on. Also, if we think you submitted GBA times and gained an advantage from it, we'll let you know.
So, summary of allowed versions for SMW: in the NTSC rankings, play on the US/Japan SNES versions only. In the PAL rankings, play on the Europe/Australia SNES versions only. Wii Virtual Console releases of these versions are allowed too.
To learn about the other rules for SMW (or rules for other games), read the rules here.
By the way, You vs. Boo time charts for Super Mario Bros. Deluxe were added several days ago. And in case you didn't notice, Yoshi's Story and Mario vs. Donkey Kong were added a little while ago. There are plenty of other games that can go up in the future, as well. Keep in mind that we're only focusing on Mario platformers, though (not Kart, Party, Golf, Tennis, etc.).
Second, Super Mario Advance 2, the Game Boy Advance version of Super Mario World, is no longer allowed for SMW times. The reason is that the GBA version has some notable differences from the SNES versions, and we don't know of the full extent that the differences affect competition. Once we have more collective experience with Super Mario World, we may or may not choose to re-allow the GBA version or create separate rankings for it. But for now, disallowing the GBA version seems to be the safest plan. The same reasoning goes for the GBA version of Super Mario Bros. 3 and the GBC version of Super Mario Bros. (although these versions were already disallowed for a while).
What if you already submitted SMW stats that you got with the GBA version? If possible, please replace your GBA-played submissions with your best SNES times. Though, the most important thing is that everyone uses SNES from here on. Also, if we think you submitted GBA times and gained an advantage from it, we'll let you know.
So, summary of allowed versions for SMW: in the NTSC rankings, play on the US/Japan SNES versions only. In the PAL rankings, play on the Europe/Australia SNES versions only. Wii Virtual Console releases of these versions are allowed too.
To learn about the other rules for SMW (or rules for other games), read the rules here.
By the way, You vs. Boo time charts for Super Mario Bros. Deluxe were added several days ago. And in case you didn't notice, Yoshi's Story and Mario vs. Donkey Kong were added a little while ago. There are plenty of other games that can go up in the future, as well. Keep in mind that we're only focusing on Mario platformers, though (not Kart, Party, Golf, Tennis, etc.).
72
Competition Central / Re: Version rules for the SMB series
« on: June 28, 2009, 11:34:27 pm »
Hmm, here's another idea. It may take a while to resolve this issue for certain, due to a current lack of Mario speedrunning experts, so we really need a halfway decent plan in the meantime. Perhaps we should ban all the mentioned GBC/GBA versions for now. It's the easiest plan to undo later: if we want separate charts later then we'll add them, and if we want to rank GB with the originals later then we'll change the rules to allow GB versions. No stat deletions required.
This plan immediately makes one rule change: ban using the GBA version of Super Mario World.
Now, even though we don't have lots of submissions yet, I'm sure we already have some SMW submissions that were achieved using the GBA version. It would be good if those players replace any GBA times with SNES times if they can. However, it's not a big deal, as I don't see anything on the charts so far that could be GBA-only.
If there are no objections, this rule change will be announced in a news post, too, so it'll appear on the front page of the Mario Center.
This plan immediately makes one rule change: ban using the GBA version of Super Mario World.
Now, even though we don't have lots of submissions yet, I'm sure we already have some SMW submissions that were achieved using the GBA version. It would be good if those players replace any GBA times with SNES times if they can. However, it's not a big deal, as I don't see anything on the charts so far that could be GBA-only.
If there are no objections, this rule change will be announced in a news post, too, so it'll appear on the front page of the Mario Center.
73
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: June 26, 2009, 12:14:39 am »
Thanks, I'm very happy with the FC5 time. I think mission 5 has almost as much potential as mission 1 overall, but some parts are trickier, so it definitely was great to beat my mission 1 time. As for the m5 run, the part between checks 1 and 2 can be improved, but I had a better ending this time. I went for the rocket skip because taking the rocket is much slower in mission 5.
Also, good luck with Crazy Gadget, looks like you're getting pretty close there.
Also, good luck with Crazy Gadget, looks like you're getting pretty close there.
74
Competition Central / Version rules for the SMB series
« on: June 22, 2009, 09:42:44 pm »
First of all, please refer to the Version Differences topic for (1) a list of versions for each game and (2) version differences. Ask if anything in the list is unclear.
Now, here's the current status on version rules for Times in SMB1, SMB2J, SMB3, and SMW:
Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 (JP):
1A - PAL and NTSC are ranked together.
1B - NES and SNES are ranked together.
1C - GB Color version is not allowed.
Super Mario Bros. 3:
2A - PAL and NTSC are ranked together.
2B - NES and SNES are ranked separately.
2C - GBA version is not allowed.
Super Mario World:
3A - NTSC US and NTSC JP are ranked together.
3B - PAL and NTSC are separate (but a PAL ranking still needs to be added).
3C - SNES and GBA versions are ranked together (GBA must use Mario, not Luigi).
----------
To make this simpler, I'd like to focus on rulings 1C, 2C, and 3C, which deal with the Game Boy versions. These are the rulings that seem the most subject to controversy. But if there's a real problem with any of the other rules, you can bring that up too.
For each of the three GB-version rules, we have three choices: (1) rank the GB version together with the other versions, (2) rank the GB version separately, or (3) disallow the GB version.
----------
Here are some examples of things we might consider:
- Consistency: it's best if all three GB version rulings are the same. If there are any ruling differences, we should be confident that the cases we are ruling on are different enough.
- Minimize duplication: whenever possible, we want to avoid splitting up the top players of a multi-versioned game among different rankings. Also, some players want to be on as many of the rankings as possible, and we don't want to make them play the same thing again and again.
- Accessibility: different players own different versions, and we want as many people as possible to be able to compete. Emulators are available for almost everyone, though some people might prefer not to play on emulators.
- Fairness: ideally, any allowed version would be nearly equal to the other versions it's ranked with. The original version(s) might take priority in fairness, or perhaps the version which is most convenient for everyone.
----------
Sorry for the long post, I wanted to lay out as much information as possible first. So, share your opinions: what are the best rules for the Game Boy versions?
Now, here's the current status on version rules for Times in SMB1, SMB2J, SMB3, and SMW:
Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Bros. 2 (JP):
1A - PAL and NTSC are ranked together.
1B - NES and SNES are ranked together.
1C - GB Color version is not allowed.
Super Mario Bros. 3:
2A - PAL and NTSC are ranked together.
2B - NES and SNES are ranked separately.
2C - GBA version is not allowed.
Super Mario World:
3A - NTSC US and NTSC JP are ranked together.
3B - PAL and NTSC are separate (but a PAL ranking still needs to be added).
3C - SNES and GBA versions are ranked together (GBA must use Mario, not Luigi).
----------
To make this simpler, I'd like to focus on rulings 1C, 2C, and 3C, which deal with the Game Boy versions. These are the rulings that seem the most subject to controversy. But if there's a real problem with any of the other rules, you can bring that up too.
For each of the three GB-version rules, we have three choices: (1) rank the GB version together with the other versions, (2) rank the GB version separately, or (3) disallow the GB version.
----------
Here are some examples of things we might consider:
- Consistency: it's best if all three GB version rulings are the same. If there are any ruling differences, we should be confident that the cases we are ruling on are different enough.
- Minimize duplication: whenever possible, we want to avoid splitting up the top players of a multi-versioned game among different rankings. Also, some players want to be on as many of the rankings as possible, and we don't want to make them play the same thing again and again.
- Accessibility: different players own different versions, and we want as many people as possible to be able to compete. Emulators are available for almost everyone, though some people might prefer not to play on emulators.
- Fairness: ideally, any allowed version would be nearly equal to the other versions it's ranked with. The original version(s) might take priority in fairness, or perhaps the version which is most convenient for everyone.
----------
Sorry for the long post, I wanted to lay out as much information as possible first. So, share your opinions: what are the best rules for the Game Boy versions?
75
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: June 20, 2009, 09:38:56 pm »
Yeah, my goal was to get a nice check-free run, and I think I'll stop here with 2:28. The video is up now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImZYpTBmQw8
I also passed the first check at high 0:39. The 1:14 second check could still be a bit better, but my second best effort there is 1:18, so I'm very satisfied with that. I think most of my time lost was at the end: the tube before the rocket was average, and I used the rocket to be safe. (Actually, I haven't gotten any rocket-skipping method to work decently... PoT, how often do you get your ending strategy to work?)
I also passed the first check at high 0:39. The 1:14 second check could still be a bit better, but my second best effort there is 1:18, so I'm very satisfied with that. I think most of my time lost was at the end: the tube before the rocket was average, and I used the rocket to be safe. (Actually, I haven't gotten any rocket-skipping method to work decently... PoT, how often do you get your ending strategy to work?)
76
Rules Revisions / Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
« on: June 18, 2009, 06:14:54 pm »
Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC... if we're not in a rush to get the SU360 issue resolved, can we try to develop some consistent policies for scalping issues in general? Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.
77
News and Updates / Re: The future of TSC
« on: June 17, 2009, 02:43:15 am »
Well, I can't think of anything useful or inspirational to add to the discussion, so I'll just reply to the topic.
- I'm currently halfway through a computer science major, so I know some programming. Not impressive, but I am willing to offer some light help here if that's desirable. I agree that while Gerbil is doing a great job with the code and maintenance, it's inconsiderate to leave him with the entire burden here - coding is time consuming, no matter how you look at it.
- As a fairly experienced TSC member and semi-power user, I will try to help out with site functions more often. Things like reading and replying to rules discussions, helping with leaderboard dispute cases, and so on. I am also interested in making the site more friendly to newcomers, so if I can think of anything along those lines then I will try to contribute. That's the extent of what I think I can do; I'm not a leader of any sort.
- I still plan to do what I can with the Mario Center, but I guess this isn't the best place to go in detail about that.
- I'm currently halfway through a computer science major, so I know some programming. Not impressive, but I am willing to offer some light help here if that's desirable. I agree that while Gerbil is doing a great job with the code and maintenance, it's inconsiderate to leave him with the entire burden here - coding is time consuming, no matter how you look at it.
- As a fairly experienced TSC member and semi-power user, I will try to help out with site functions more often. Things like reading and replying to rules discussions, helping with leaderboard dispute cases, and so on. I am also interested in making the site more friendly to newcomers, so if I can think of anything along those lines then I will try to contribute. That's the extent of what I think I can do; I'm not a leader of any sort.
- I still plan to do what I can with the Mario Center, but I guess this isn't the best place to go in detail about that.
78
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: June 10, 2009, 03:37:59 pm »
Unfortunately, no - I'm having problems with my DVD recorder, as I can't get it to display on my TV anymore. Might have to get a new recorder, but I hope not. But yeah, once this is resolved, I want to record a CW3 run at least.
79
Competition Central / Re: How much time do you lose when you respawn from a checkpoint in SA2:B?
« on: June 09, 2009, 08:05:02 pm »
Amazing records, Brian! I totally didn't expect that Radical Highway would go so low. Really liked your strategy after the last checkpoint. You're showing so much skill and creativity lately, especially in the Sonic/Shadow levels.
I agree with Jawzun; there's a great chance that you're the best at this game lately. And since you're a good guy, I wouldn't mind seeing you at the top of the rankings - you would definitely deserve it. I'll keep playing, though, and keep it competitive for as long as I can.
I agree with Jawzun; there's a great chance that you're the best at this game lately. And since you're a good guy, I wouldn't mind seeing you at the top of the rankings - you would definitely deserve it. I'll keep playing, though, and keep it competitive for as long as I can.
80
Information Kiosk / Re: Translating TSC
« on: May 06, 2009, 09:00:01 pm »
Are your Japanese translations so far done from your knowledge or a dictionary (or both)?
I'm studying Japanese, but only at the first or second year level right now. If I have any possibility of helping, then I would like to.
I'm studying Japanese, but only at the first or second year level right now. If I have any possibility of helping, then I would like to.
81
Gaming and Grazing / Re: TSC League!~
« on: January 30, 2009, 08:48:46 pm »
I might as well join if there's still time. I plan to balance my free time with other things though, so don't expect anything intense.
82
Introductions / Re: Warning, challenger approaching!
« on: January 18, 2009, 09:14:23 pm »
Welcome! New players are much appreciated, especially with the charts as sparse as they are right now.
By the way, if you're playing SMW, note that the rules say you must start each time-attack run as Small Mario. This keeps the TA strategies creative, especially since it tends to rule out the "fly from start to finish" option.
By the way, if you're playing SMW, note that the rules say you must start each time-attack run as Small Mario. This keeps the TA strategies creative, especially since it tends to rule out the "fly from start to finish" option.
83
Gaming and Grazing / Re: COMING SOON! To Channel TSC!
« on: January 10, 2009, 10:18:22 pm »
Looks like I managed 4th; I did quite well in Sonic 1 and 2 by my standards, and fairly well in 3. I need work on S&K though.
I hope we can hold another marathon, especially for those who didn't get to participate in this one.
I hope we can hold another marathon, especially for those who didn't get to participate in this one.
84
Competition Central / Re: I goofed
« on: January 02, 2009, 05:40:42 pm »
When you click "Submissions", there's a link to the rules page below the boxes where you choose your game and divisions. I actually miss it all the time, maybe because I'm familiar with submitting or that it's not that obvious - but I'm pretty sure it's both. >_>
85
Competition Central / Re: I goofed
« on: January 01, 2009, 05:38:19 pm »
Well, that's no big deal. But for your 363 on Yoshi's Island 2, which of the following did you do?
1) Started as Caped Mario
2) Played on the European SNES version
If 1), there's a rule for Super Mario World saying that you must start the level as small Mario. The main reason for the rule is that flying from start to finish makes most time attacks boring.
If 2), that reminds me that we need separate charts for the European version. The timer runs differently, so it's not comparable to the US/JP version at all.
1) Started as Caped Mario
2) Played on the European SNES version
If 1), there's a rule for Super Mario World saying that you must start the level as small Mario. The main reason for the rule is that flying from start to finish makes most time attacks boring.
If 2), that reminds me that we need separate charts for the European version. The timer runs differently, so it's not comparable to the US/JP version at all.
86
Competition Central / Re: World 2-3
« on: January 01, 2009, 12:35:34 am »
So it's been... 6 months since the last post here, but here's why Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (GBC) can get 242 in 2-3, while the NES-NTSC version can only get 240. (There are a couple of things I just found in the past few days.)
1. In SMB Deluxe, Mario travels 3.5 fewer blocks of horizontal distance in 2-3. This seems to save 22 frames; 1 second on the game's timer equals 24 frames.
- The third platform is 2 blocks shorter in length than in NES/SNES, 10 blocks long instead of 12 blocks. (2 block advantage)
- The end staircase is missing one step, so that it's not too tall for the small screen. Thus, the staircase is also 1 block shorter in length. The flagpole is not shorter, but the jump feels the same because the jump to the flagpole is 1 block shorter in length. (2 block advantage)
- Mario starts out 0.5 blocks behind his NES/SNES starting position. (0.5 block disadvantage)
2. In SMB Deluxe, Mario's acceleration on the ground is faster than in NES-NTSC, saving 6 frames at the beginning.
These two things mean Deluxe saves 28 frames (1 game second plus 4 frames), but it actually saves only 25-27 frames relative to the game timer, due to timer technicalities. Still, it means slightly more than a game second is saved. Since NES-NTSC can get extremely close to 241 (maybe even 1 frame away), this means Deluxe can go all the way to 242.
Also, I think NES-PAL can get 241. It has the faster ground acceleration (point 2 above), but the level is the same as NES-NTSC.
1. In SMB Deluxe, Mario travels 3.5 fewer blocks of horizontal distance in 2-3. This seems to save 22 frames; 1 second on the game's timer equals 24 frames.
- The third platform is 2 blocks shorter in length than in NES/SNES, 10 blocks long instead of 12 blocks. (2 block advantage)
- The end staircase is missing one step, so that it's not too tall for the small screen. Thus, the staircase is also 1 block shorter in length. The flagpole is not shorter, but the jump feels the same because the jump to the flagpole is 1 block shorter in length. (2 block advantage)
- Mario starts out 0.5 blocks behind his NES/SNES starting position. (0.5 block disadvantage)
2. In SMB Deluxe, Mario's acceleration on the ground is faster than in NES-NTSC, saving 6 frames at the beginning.
These two things mean Deluxe saves 28 frames (1 game second plus 4 frames), but it actually saves only 25-27 frames relative to the game timer, due to timer technicalities. Still, it means slightly more than a game second is saved. Since NES-NTSC can get extremely close to 241 (maybe even 1 frame away), this means Deluxe can go all the way to 242.
Also, I think NES-PAL can get 241. It has the faster ground acceleration (point 2 above), but the level is the same as NES-NTSC.
87
Competition Central / Re: Version differences
« on: August 18, 2008, 09:52:48 pm »
SUPER MARIO WORLD - version differences
--- Versions
Systems: Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Advance
SNES - Super Mario World (J/U/E)
GBA - Super Mario Advance 2 (J/U/E)
--- JP SNES / US SNES
The last Special World level, Funky, has 3 green berries in the Japanese version, but 9 green berries in the US version. When Yoshi eats a green berry, 20 ticks are added to the timer, so more green berries can drastically change the potential best time in that level.
--- NTSC SNES / PAL SNES
PAL has a speed advantage over NTSC, relative to the timer, in potentially all levels.
PAL runs at 50 frames per second and NTSC runs at 60 frames per second, but the game designers wanted to make both versions run at about the same speed in real time. So in the PAL version, Mario and the timer would have to cover the same amount of ground in fewer frames.
In NTSC the timer moves at 1 tick per 41 frames, and in PAL it moves at 1 tick per 35 frames, for a conversion ratio of about 1.17. But a simple speedrun of Yoshi's Island 2 (holding right and the run button the whole way) takes 1642 frames in NTSC and 1322 frames in PAL, measuring from the timer's start to the goal tape breaking. This suggests a conversion ratio of roughly 1.24 for horizontal movement.
These non-matching conversion ratios mean that Mario was sped up more than the timer in the NTSC to PAL conversion, giving PAL faster times. In a simple speedrun of Yoshi's Island 2, that advantage is slightly more than 2 ticks. PAL finishes at 363, several frames earlier than 362; NTSC finishes at 360, just two frames later than 361.
Mario is able to make slightly longer jumps in PAL than in NTSC. This is probably due to non-matching conversion ratios of vertical and horizontal movement. A full standing jump takes 53 frames in NTSC and 46 frames in PAL, suggesting a conversion ratio of about 1.15 for vertical movement. And as seen above, the ratio for horizontal movement is in the neighborhood of 1.24.
--- SNES / GBA
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is smaller in GBA than in SNES. SNES displays 16 blocks in width and 14 blocks in height. GBA displays 15 blocks (1 less) in width and 10 blocks (4 less) in height. GBA sometimes reduces the height disadvantage to 3.5 blocks by displaying a half-block less of the ground. Still, the display height difference led to many small level design changes in GBA.
In SNES, when Fiery Mario is hit, he becomes Small; in GBA, he becomes Super. To be more thorough: in SNES, when Mario gets hit when Fiery or Caped, he goes all the way to Small Mario, and the item in the reserve box is dropped. In GBA, he only reverts to Super Mario, and the reserve item is not dropped.
In SNES, Yoshi blocks always contain Green Yoshis. In GBA, after a certain point in the game, you can get any Yoshi color from a Yoshi block. Small Mario gets a random color, Super Mario gets Yellow, Fiery Mario gets Red, and Caped Mario gets Blue. The different-colored Yoshis offer convenient access to abilities (spitting fire, making earthquakes, flying) that can affect time attack runs.
Yoshi can harmlessly stomp on Cheep-Cheeps in the GBA version, but can't stomp them in the SNES version.
Mario can climb vines more quickly when you're holding the run button in the GBA version, but not in the SNES version.
In converting SMW to the smaller screen of the GBA, many small level design changes were made. Here's a not-too-thorough list of differences found in the first 3 worlds of the game. Some differences shouldn't affect competition at all, some differences probably will - this list tries to be somewhat comparable to The Mushroom Kingdom's list of SNES/GBA changes for SMB3.
Yoshi's Island 1
- The clouds and 1-up block both were lowered by 1 block to fit on the screen.
Yoshi's Island 3
- While the SNES version has 4 platforms going up at the beginning, GBA has 6 platforms that are placed closer together, making the climb easier.
Yoshi's Island 4
- The high P-Switch has been lowered by 1 block, and the brown blocks just to the right of it have been lowered by 2 blocks.
Donut Plains 1
- The GBA version has one more yellow coin block before the first pipe, for a total of 3 instead of 2.
- The GBA version adds more coins in the Cape-Mario coin area, to make a total of 600. GBA also adds a coin counter indicating how many coins are left in the area.
- At the keyhole area, the GBA version adds two 4-block-high pipes, one to the left of the key and one to the right of the keyhole. So if you're approaching the key area via the vertical line of green blocks, you have to jump over the left pipe to reach the key and keyhole.
Donut Plains 2
- At the part with all the pipes on the ceiling: in GBA the pipes and ceiling have been lowered, and the moving yellow floors have a much shorter movement range: the high points have been moved down, and the low points have been moved up. Nevertheless, the blocks go through one movement cycle in the same amount of time in both the SNES and GBA versions.
- In GBA the ceiling's lower at the end of the auto-scrolling part.
Donut Secret 1
- There's a newly added midway gate under the narrow tunnel with the two purple blocks. (The midway gate's Super-Mushroom effect may or may not be helpful for speedruns.)
Donut Secret House
- In SNES a Boo circle's orientation when you first see it is random. In GBA it's not random; it's the same every time.
- In the room with the blue P-switch-activated doors, some out-of-the-way structures are added to accommodate 2 new dragon coins.
Donut Secret 2
- The GBA version adds a message block at the beginning to explain how the controllable-coin block works.
- In the SNES version, all surfaces in the level are slippery, including pipes and blocks. In the GBA version, only ice surfaces are slippery.
- The GBA version adds a power-up block next to the upside-down green pipe, as well as a multi-coin block above the second small high platform just after that.
#2 Morton's Castle
- The GBA version has a newly added midway gate at the beginning of the moving-block area. (It's still impossible to get a Fire Flower within the level, though, or a Cape except right before the boss door.)
- Surprisingly, the GBA version suffers no practical width differences in the moving block room. The SNES version had a decent amount of "padding" on either side of the room, so the GBA version just cut off some of the padding.
Vanilla Dome 1
- GBA has one less stair at the beginning, and the "runway" at the start is one block longer, making it easier to get a running jump at the start.
- In the lava area, the starting platform and the ceiling have been lowered by 3 blocks in the GBA version. Also, the sinking yellow platform has been lowered by 4 blocks, but still takes about the same time to fully sink.
- A few minor GBA changes in the tunnels after the midway gate. There are a couple of small changes in the entrance to the narrow upper route, and the upper route has been lowered a bit relative to the passage before it. The upper route's ceiling was lowered by 1 block where the dragon coin is. The whole lower route now dips by 1 block in the Spike Top area, and then comes back up afterward. (In that lower route, the gaps between the ground, ceiling, and blocks with the Spike Tops are still the same.)
- A bit later on, the steep upward slope is 2 blocks shorter in the GBA version.
- After that, there are 3 parallel horizontal tunnels. The dividers between the bottom and middle ones are 1 block tall in the GBA version, instead of 2 blocks tall.
Vanilla Dome 2
- In the GBA version, the ceiling at the end is 2 blocks lower.
Vanilla Ghost House
- Once again, Boo circles' initial orientations are random in SNES, but not in GBA.
- The GBA version has a newly added midway gate, just past the second Big Boo.
Vanilla Secret 1
- The sloping ground just before the secret exit is shaped slightly differently in the GBA version, but the length of the walk to the goal is the same.
Vanilla Fortress
- The Reznors' platforms are closer together in GBA. In SNES, when one platform is directly over the other, they're 4 blocks apart; in GBA, they're 3 blocks apart.
#3 Lemmy's Castle
- The row of yellow blocks that you start on is 1 block lower in GBA.
- There are several changes in the moving block room. First, the moving block with an upper alcove is slightly differently shaped in GBA: the alcove is shaped differently, and there's a 1-block-wide lava gap near the end of the block (there's a newly placed dragon coin above it).
- Following that, there's a down-step in the stationary blocks in GBA, so the next part can fit on the screen.
- The following moving block is completely different in SNES and GBA. The GBA version of the block is impassable for a longer time period, so SNES is more likely to have an advantage.
- After that there's an up-step in the stationary blocks in GBA, complementing the previous down-step.
- The following moving block is slightly different on the left side in GBA, for no apparent reason.
- Under that same moving block, there's a plain-sight power-up which is a Mushroom in SNES, but a Feather in GBA.
- The topmost step leading down to the boss door is one block shorter in GBA, though it turns out that its height relative to the last moving block is the same in both versions. Also, the last few moving blocks have the same movement range and movement period (in fact, all the blocks have the same movement period of about 16 ticks).
Front Door
- In the SNES version, the timer starts at 400 ticks, and doesn't show up during the boss fight. In the GBA version, the timer starts at 800 ticks, and continues to count during the boss fight.
--- Versions
Systems: Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Advance
SNES - Super Mario World (J/U/E)
GBA - Super Mario Advance 2 (J/U/E)
--- JP SNES / US SNES
The last Special World level, Funky, has 3 green berries in the Japanese version, but 9 green berries in the US version. When Yoshi eats a green berry, 20 ticks are added to the timer, so more green berries can drastically change the potential best time in that level.
--- NTSC SNES / PAL SNES
PAL has a speed advantage over NTSC, relative to the timer, in potentially all levels.
PAL runs at 50 frames per second and NTSC runs at 60 frames per second, but the game designers wanted to make both versions run at about the same speed in real time. So in the PAL version, Mario and the timer would have to cover the same amount of ground in fewer frames.
In NTSC the timer moves at 1 tick per 41 frames, and in PAL it moves at 1 tick per 35 frames, for a conversion ratio of about 1.17. But a simple speedrun of Yoshi's Island 2 (holding right and the run button the whole way) takes 1642 frames in NTSC and 1322 frames in PAL, measuring from the timer's start to the goal tape breaking. This suggests a conversion ratio of roughly 1.24 for horizontal movement.
These non-matching conversion ratios mean that Mario was sped up more than the timer in the NTSC to PAL conversion, giving PAL faster times. In a simple speedrun of Yoshi's Island 2, that advantage is slightly more than 2 ticks. PAL finishes at 363, several frames earlier than 362; NTSC finishes at 360, just two frames later than 361.
Mario is able to make slightly longer jumps in PAL than in NTSC. This is probably due to non-matching conversion ratios of vertical and horizontal movement. A full standing jump takes 53 frames in NTSC and 46 frames in PAL, suggesting a conversion ratio of about 1.15 for vertical movement. And as seen above, the ratio for horizontal movement is in the neighborhood of 1.24.
--- SNES / GBA
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is smaller in GBA than in SNES. SNES displays 16 blocks in width and 14 blocks in height. GBA displays 15 blocks (1 less) in width and 10 blocks (4 less) in height. GBA sometimes reduces the height disadvantage to 3.5 blocks by displaying a half-block less of the ground. Still, the display height difference led to many small level design changes in GBA.
In SNES, when Fiery Mario is hit, he becomes Small; in GBA, he becomes Super. To be more thorough: in SNES, when Mario gets hit when Fiery or Caped, he goes all the way to Small Mario, and the item in the reserve box is dropped. In GBA, he only reverts to Super Mario, and the reserve item is not dropped.
In SNES, Yoshi blocks always contain Green Yoshis. In GBA, after a certain point in the game, you can get any Yoshi color from a Yoshi block. Small Mario gets a random color, Super Mario gets Yellow, Fiery Mario gets Red, and Caped Mario gets Blue. The different-colored Yoshis offer convenient access to abilities (spitting fire, making earthquakes, flying) that can affect time attack runs.
Yoshi can harmlessly stomp on Cheep-Cheeps in the GBA version, but can't stomp them in the SNES version.
Mario can climb vines more quickly when you're holding the run button in the GBA version, but not in the SNES version.
In converting SMW to the smaller screen of the GBA, many small level design changes were made. Here's a not-too-thorough list of differences found in the first 3 worlds of the game. Some differences shouldn't affect competition at all, some differences probably will - this list tries to be somewhat comparable to The Mushroom Kingdom's list of SNES/GBA changes for SMB3.
Yoshi's Island 1
- The clouds and 1-up block both were lowered by 1 block to fit on the screen.
Yoshi's Island 3
- While the SNES version has 4 platforms going up at the beginning, GBA has 6 platforms that are placed closer together, making the climb easier.
Yoshi's Island 4
- The high P-Switch has been lowered by 1 block, and the brown blocks just to the right of it have been lowered by 2 blocks.
Donut Plains 1
- The GBA version has one more yellow coin block before the first pipe, for a total of 3 instead of 2.
- The GBA version adds more coins in the Cape-Mario coin area, to make a total of 600. GBA also adds a coin counter indicating how many coins are left in the area.
- At the keyhole area, the GBA version adds two 4-block-high pipes, one to the left of the key and one to the right of the keyhole. So if you're approaching the key area via the vertical line of green blocks, you have to jump over the left pipe to reach the key and keyhole.
Donut Plains 2
- At the part with all the pipes on the ceiling: in GBA the pipes and ceiling have been lowered, and the moving yellow floors have a much shorter movement range: the high points have been moved down, and the low points have been moved up. Nevertheless, the blocks go through one movement cycle in the same amount of time in both the SNES and GBA versions.
- In GBA the ceiling's lower at the end of the auto-scrolling part.
Donut Secret 1
- There's a newly added midway gate under the narrow tunnel with the two purple blocks. (The midway gate's Super-Mushroom effect may or may not be helpful for speedruns.)
Donut Secret House
- In SNES a Boo circle's orientation when you first see it is random. In GBA it's not random; it's the same every time.
- In the room with the blue P-switch-activated doors, some out-of-the-way structures are added to accommodate 2 new dragon coins.
Donut Secret 2
- The GBA version adds a message block at the beginning to explain how the controllable-coin block works.
- In the SNES version, all surfaces in the level are slippery, including pipes and blocks. In the GBA version, only ice surfaces are slippery.
- The GBA version adds a power-up block next to the upside-down green pipe, as well as a multi-coin block above the second small high platform just after that.
#2 Morton's Castle
- The GBA version has a newly added midway gate at the beginning of the moving-block area. (It's still impossible to get a Fire Flower within the level, though, or a Cape except right before the boss door.)
- Surprisingly, the GBA version suffers no practical width differences in the moving block room. The SNES version had a decent amount of "padding" on either side of the room, so the GBA version just cut off some of the padding.
Vanilla Dome 1
- GBA has one less stair at the beginning, and the "runway" at the start is one block longer, making it easier to get a running jump at the start.
- In the lava area, the starting platform and the ceiling have been lowered by 3 blocks in the GBA version. Also, the sinking yellow platform has been lowered by 4 blocks, but still takes about the same time to fully sink.
- A few minor GBA changes in the tunnels after the midway gate. There are a couple of small changes in the entrance to the narrow upper route, and the upper route has been lowered a bit relative to the passage before it. The upper route's ceiling was lowered by 1 block where the dragon coin is. The whole lower route now dips by 1 block in the Spike Top area, and then comes back up afterward. (In that lower route, the gaps between the ground, ceiling, and blocks with the Spike Tops are still the same.)
- A bit later on, the steep upward slope is 2 blocks shorter in the GBA version.
- After that, there are 3 parallel horizontal tunnels. The dividers between the bottom and middle ones are 1 block tall in the GBA version, instead of 2 blocks tall.
Vanilla Dome 2
- In the GBA version, the ceiling at the end is 2 blocks lower.
Vanilla Ghost House
- Once again, Boo circles' initial orientations are random in SNES, but not in GBA.
- The GBA version has a newly added midway gate, just past the second Big Boo.
Vanilla Secret 1
- The sloping ground just before the secret exit is shaped slightly differently in the GBA version, but the length of the walk to the goal is the same.
Vanilla Fortress
- The Reznors' platforms are closer together in GBA. In SNES, when one platform is directly over the other, they're 4 blocks apart; in GBA, they're 3 blocks apart.
#3 Lemmy's Castle
- The row of yellow blocks that you start on is 1 block lower in GBA.
- There are several changes in the moving block room. First, the moving block with an upper alcove is slightly differently shaped in GBA: the alcove is shaped differently, and there's a 1-block-wide lava gap near the end of the block (there's a newly placed dragon coin above it).
- Following that, there's a down-step in the stationary blocks in GBA, so the next part can fit on the screen.
- The following moving block is completely different in SNES and GBA. The GBA version of the block is impassable for a longer time period, so SNES is more likely to have an advantage.
- After that there's an up-step in the stationary blocks in GBA, complementing the previous down-step.
- The following moving block is slightly different on the left side in GBA, for no apparent reason.
- Under that same moving block, there's a plain-sight power-up which is a Mushroom in SNES, but a Feather in GBA.
- The topmost step leading down to the boss door is one block shorter in GBA, though it turns out that its height relative to the last moving block is the same in both versions. Also, the last few moving blocks have the same movement range and movement period (in fact, all the blocks have the same movement period of about 16 ticks).
Front Door
- In the SNES version, the timer starts at 400 ticks, and doesn't show up during the boss fight. In the GBA version, the timer starts at 800 ticks, and continues to count during the boss fight.
88
Competition Central / Re: Version differences
« on: August 18, 2008, 09:39:44 pm »
SUPER MARIO BROS. 3 - version differences
--- Versions
Systems: Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Advance
NES - Super Mario Bros. 3 (J/U/E)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E) or Super Mario Collection (J)
GBA - Super Mario Advance 4 (J/U/E)
--- JP NES / US,EU NES
In JP, when Fiery Mario is hit, he becomes Small; in US/EU, he becomes Super. To be more thorough: in JP, when Mario takes a hit as Fiery, Raccoon, Frog, Tanooki, or Hammer Mario, he goes all the way down to Small Mario. In US/EU, he only goes down one level to Super Mario.
In 1-Fortress's spiked-ceiling room, the door to BOOM-BOOM is one block closer to the left in JP, compared to US/EU. JP also has two more blocks of low spiked ceiling at the right side of that room. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_j-e.shtml#w1-fortress
In 5-1, JP has a pipe leading to the end of the level. In US/EU, there's no pipe, and the end of the level is just beyond where the pipe used to be. There is probably more ground to cover in the Japanese version. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_j-e.shtml#w5-1
--- NTSC NES,SNES / PAL NES,SNES
PAL Mario jumps up and falls down faster than NTSC Mario. As a result, PAL Mario can make small jumps more rapidly, but NTSC Mario can make longer jumps. In jumping up, falling down, and total time of the jump, the vertical speed ratio is fairly close to 6:5, which is the NTSC/PAL speed ratio of displaying frames.
--- NES / SNES
The timer speed slows down when the screen scrolls horizontally. The faster the horizontal scrolling is, the more the timer slows down. The timer slowdown from scrolling is less in SNES than in NES. When Mario is walking the SNES to NES timer speed ratio is only about 8:7, but at full P-meter speed the ratio is slightly greater than 2:1.
In 1-Fortress, the SNES version of the spiked-ceiling room is different from either of the two NES versions of the room. The SNES room has two extra blocks of horizontal space (and spiked ceiling) added on the left and right sides of the room, compared to the NES-US/EU room. But the door to BOOM-BOOM is at the rightmost part of the room, under a slightly higher spiked ceiling, like in the NES-US/EU room.
In World 4-4, the water surface's height is different in NES and SNES. The NES water level starts out high, and later becomes lower. The SNES water level stays constant at a level between the NES water level's high and low points. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_nes2smas.shtml#w4-4
In World 7-5, a formation of ice blocks between two pipes has been moved one block to the right in the SNES version. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_nes2smas.shtml#w7-5
--- SNES / GBA
The GBA has a smaller screen resolution than the SNES, so in a level GBA displays 1 block less in width and 2 blocks less in height. This led to many small level design changes in GBA. (Actually, the GBA screen itself loses 4 blocks' worth of height to the SNES screen, but GBA no longer has the 2-block-high status bar at the bottom.) Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_w1.shtml
In GBA, Mario gains the ability to swim while holding a shell. Like in Super Mario World, this lets him swim faster horizontally.
In GBA, all Lakitus have been lowered by 1 block to better fit on the screen. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_p2.shtml#enemies
In converting SMB3 to the smaller screen of the GBA, many small level design changes were made. The Mushroom Kingdom has a very thorough list of differences, complete with lots of screenshots, which can be found starting from http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_w1.shtml - the link to the World 1 differences. Near the top of the page there are links to the level differences for Worlds 2 through 8. Also, the list specifically compares the US-SNES and US-GBA versions, but most of the comparisons are valid between any of the NES or SNES versions on one side, and any of the GBA versions on the other side.
--- Versions
Systems: Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Advance
NES - Super Mario Bros. 3 (J/U/E)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E) or Super Mario Collection (J)
GBA - Super Mario Advance 4 (J/U/E)
--- JP NES / US,EU NES
In JP, when Fiery Mario is hit, he becomes Small; in US/EU, he becomes Super. To be more thorough: in JP, when Mario takes a hit as Fiery, Raccoon, Frog, Tanooki, or Hammer Mario, he goes all the way down to Small Mario. In US/EU, he only goes down one level to Super Mario.
In 1-Fortress's spiked-ceiling room, the door to BOOM-BOOM is one block closer to the left in JP, compared to US/EU. JP also has two more blocks of low spiked ceiling at the right side of that room. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_j-e.shtml#w1-fortress
In 5-1, JP has a pipe leading to the end of the level. In US/EU, there's no pipe, and the end of the level is just beyond where the pipe used to be. There is probably more ground to cover in the Japanese version. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_j-e.shtml#w5-1
--- NTSC NES,SNES / PAL NES,SNES
PAL Mario jumps up and falls down faster than NTSC Mario. As a result, PAL Mario can make small jumps more rapidly, but NTSC Mario can make longer jumps. In jumping up, falling down, and total time of the jump, the vertical speed ratio is fairly close to 6:5, which is the NTSC/PAL speed ratio of displaying frames.
--- NES / SNES
The timer speed slows down when the screen scrolls horizontally. The faster the horizontal scrolling is, the more the timer slows down. The timer slowdown from scrolling is less in SNES than in NES. When Mario is walking the SNES to NES timer speed ratio is only about 8:7, but at full P-meter speed the ratio is slightly greater than 2:1.
In 1-Fortress, the SNES version of the spiked-ceiling room is different from either of the two NES versions of the room. The SNES room has two extra blocks of horizontal space (and spiked ceiling) added on the left and right sides of the room, compared to the NES-US/EU room. But the door to BOOM-BOOM is at the rightmost part of the room, under a slightly higher spiked ceiling, like in the NES-US/EU room.
In World 4-4, the water surface's height is different in NES and SNES. The NES water level starts out high, and later becomes lower. The SNES water level stays constant at a level between the NES water level's high and low points. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_nes2smas.shtml#w4-4
In World 7-5, a formation of ice blocks between two pipes has been moved one block to the right in the SNES version. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_nes2smas.shtml#w7-5
--- SNES / GBA
The GBA has a smaller screen resolution than the SNES, so in a level GBA displays 1 block less in width and 2 blocks less in height. This led to many small level design changes in GBA. (Actually, the GBA screen itself loses 4 blocks' worth of height to the SNES screen, but GBA no longer has the 2-block-high status bar at the bottom.) Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_w1.shtml
In GBA, Mario gains the ability to swim while holding a shell. Like in Super Mario World, this lets him swim faster horizontally.
In GBA, all Lakitus have been lowered by 1 block to better fit on the screen. Screenshots: http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_p2.shtml#enemies
In converting SMB3 to the smaller screen of the GBA, many small level design changes were made. The Mushroom Kingdom has a very thorough list of differences, complete with lots of screenshots, which can be found starting from http://themushroomkingdom.net/smb3_snes2sma_w1.shtml - the link to the World 1 differences. Near the top of the page there are links to the level differences for Worlds 2 through 8. Also, the list specifically compares the US-SNES and US-GBA versions, but most of the comparisons are valid between any of the NES or SNES versions on one side, and any of the GBA versions on the other side.
89
Competition Central / Re: Version differences
« on: August 18, 2008, 09:22:28 pm »
SUPER MARIO BROS. 2 (J) - version differences
--- Versions
Systems: Famicom Disk System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Color
FDS - Super Mario Bros. 2 (J)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E), as "The Lost Levels"; or Super Mario Collection (J), as "Super Mario Bros. 2"
GBC - Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (UE/J), as "Super Mario Bros. for Super Players"
--- NTSC FDS,SNES / PAL SNES
PAL has a 0.25-tick advantage over NTSC in accelerating on the ground from a stop to full speed. Also in SMB1.
Jumping Cheep-Cheeps tend to pose more of a threat in PAL than in NTSC. Also in SMB1.
--- FDS / SNES
Sometimes the FDS timer lags behind by 1 to 3 frames, in which case FDS may gain an advantage over SNES, with respect to the timer. Also in SMB1.
SNES has a mysterious 1-frame advantage over FDS at the beginning of some levels. Also in SMB1.
Piranha plants' hitboxes are larger in SNES than in FDS. Also in SMB1.
FDS may have a higher tendency to have enemies disappear by scrolling. Also in SMB1.
World 3-2 is missing two coral structures in SNES. It's at one part with a row of 9 coins and a koopa troopa. In SNES, there's only 1 coral plant in that area. In FDS (and GBC), there are 3 coral plants, making it slightly harder to get through that part at full speed.
--- FDS,SNES / GBC
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is much smaller in GBC than in FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
FDS/SNES gives Mario a slightly higher boost from bouncing off of an enemy compared to GBC. The vertical boost is about 2 blocks high in FDS/SNES, but about 1 block high in GBC.
When Mario walks off a platform, his initial falling speed is faster in GBC than it is in FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
Paratroopas and bullet bills move slower horizontally in GBC compared to FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
FDS/SNES levels that require higher enemy bounces were modified slightly for GBC, to make them possible with GBC's lower enemy bounce. Two examples of such levels are 4-3 and 5-3.
The GBC version doesn't have any wind. Levels that have wind in FDS/SNES include 5-1, 6-1, and 7-3.
Many level endings are missing two blocks in width in GBC. Also in SMB1.
Enemies, firebars, moving platforms, and other moving elements are often in different positions initially in GBC compared to FDS/SNES. This and the above fact that some enemies are slower lead to some very different situations when running at full speed:
- 1-1: the second paratroopa lands only on the top step of the four-step staircase in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it lands on the third step from the top.
- 1-2: the first paratroopa is nearer to the first gap when you get to him in GBC, compared to FDS/SNES.
- 1-3: the first side-to-side moving platform is moving left in FDS/SNES, but right in GBC.
- 1-4: the fourth firebar points left as you pass it in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it points right.
- 1-4: the seventh firebar is an obstacle in GBC when you jump over the koopa troopa. In FDS/SNES, it doesn't get in the way.
- 1-4: the eighth firebar points left as you pass it in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it points right.
--- Versions
Systems: Famicom Disk System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Color
FDS - Super Mario Bros. 2 (J)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E), as "The Lost Levels"; or Super Mario Collection (J), as "Super Mario Bros. 2"
GBC - Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (UE/J), as "Super Mario Bros. for Super Players"
--- NTSC FDS,SNES / PAL SNES
PAL has a 0.25-tick advantage over NTSC in accelerating on the ground from a stop to full speed. Also in SMB1.
Jumping Cheep-Cheeps tend to pose more of a threat in PAL than in NTSC. Also in SMB1.
--- FDS / SNES
Sometimes the FDS timer lags behind by 1 to 3 frames, in which case FDS may gain an advantage over SNES, with respect to the timer. Also in SMB1.
SNES has a mysterious 1-frame advantage over FDS at the beginning of some levels. Also in SMB1.
Piranha plants' hitboxes are larger in SNES than in FDS. Also in SMB1.
FDS may have a higher tendency to have enemies disappear by scrolling. Also in SMB1.
World 3-2 is missing two coral structures in SNES. It's at one part with a row of 9 coins and a koopa troopa. In SNES, there's only 1 coral plant in that area. In FDS (and GBC), there are 3 coral plants, making it slightly harder to get through that part at full speed.
--- FDS,SNES / GBC
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is much smaller in GBC than in FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
FDS/SNES gives Mario a slightly higher boost from bouncing off of an enemy compared to GBC. The vertical boost is about 2 blocks high in FDS/SNES, but about 1 block high in GBC.
When Mario walks off a platform, his initial falling speed is faster in GBC than it is in FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
Paratroopas and bullet bills move slower horizontally in GBC compared to FDS/SNES. Also in SMB1.
FDS/SNES levels that require higher enemy bounces were modified slightly for GBC, to make them possible with GBC's lower enemy bounce. Two examples of such levels are 4-3 and 5-3.
The GBC version doesn't have any wind. Levels that have wind in FDS/SNES include 5-1, 6-1, and 7-3.
Many level endings are missing two blocks in width in GBC. Also in SMB1.
Enemies, firebars, moving platforms, and other moving elements are often in different positions initially in GBC compared to FDS/SNES. This and the above fact that some enemies are slower lead to some very different situations when running at full speed:
- 1-1: the second paratroopa lands only on the top step of the four-step staircase in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it lands on the third step from the top.
- 1-2: the first paratroopa is nearer to the first gap when you get to him in GBC, compared to FDS/SNES.
- 1-3: the first side-to-side moving platform is moving left in FDS/SNES, but right in GBC.
- 1-4: the fourth firebar points left as you pass it in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it points right.
- 1-4: the seventh firebar is an obstacle in GBC when you jump over the koopa troopa. In FDS/SNES, it doesn't get in the way.
- 1-4: the eighth firebar points left as you pass it in FDS/SNES. In GBC, it points right.
90
Competition Central / Re: Version differences
« on: August 18, 2008, 09:05:05 pm »
SUPER MARIO BROS. - version differences
--- Versions
Systems: Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Color
NES - Super Mario Bros. (JU/E)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E) or Super Mario Collection (J)
GBC - Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (UE/J)
--- NTSC NES,SNES / PAL NES,SNES
PAL has a 0.25-tick advantage over NTSC in accelerating on the ground from a stop to full speed. 0.25 of a tick is 5 frames in PAL terms, and 6 frames in NTSC terms. It is not known what the advantage is when acceleration is not done entirely on the ground, such as in World 1-2 or 1-4.
Jumping Cheep-Cheeps tend to pose more of a threat in PAL than in NTSC. In NTSC, Mario will never get hit by the Cheep-Cheeps if he keeps running right and stays in the lower half of the screen. For some reason, in PAL the Cheep-Cheeps are able to jump farther to the right, so that Mario needs to jump to avoid some of the Cheep-Cheeps at full speed.
--- NES / SNES
Sometimes the NES timer lags behind by 1 to 3 frames, in which case NES may gain an advantage over SNES, with respect to the timer. In both NES-NTSC and SNES-NTSC versions, the timer runs at an average of 1 tick per 24 frames. In both NES-PAL and SNES-PAL versions, the timer runs at an average of 1 tick per 20 frames. However, the SNES timer consistently runs at the average rate, while the NES timer sometimes falls behind by 1 to 3 frames and then catches up in the next one or two ticks. This may make a difference if the NES timer happens to fall behind right at the end of a level.
SNES has a mysterious 1-frame advantage over NES at the beginning of some levels. This means SNES-NTSC has a 1-frame advantage over NES-NTSC, and SNES-PAL has a 1-frame advantage over NES-PAL. The advantage appears in short-distance and full-level running tests conducted in World 2-3, but not in a short-distance test in World 1-2. This advantage is with respect to the timer's starting point.
SNES gives Mario a slightly higher boost from bouncing off of an enemy compared to NES. The vertical boost is about 1 block high in NES, but closer to 1.5 blocks in SNES.
Piranha plants' hitboxes are larger in SNES than in NES. In particular, if Mario jumps and falls straight down onto a piranha plant, you'll notice that Mario's shoes end up lower in the piranha plant sprite in NES than in SNES. This means that Mario can safely pass through more parts of the piranha plant in NES than he could in SNES. This hitbox difference makes some levels harder for the SNES to match the NES, and makes 8-4 strictly slower for SNES.
NES may have a higher tendency to have enemies disappear by scrolling.
--- NES,SNES / GBC
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is much smaller in GBC than in NES/SNES. NES and SNES display 16 blocks in width and enough blocks of height to eliminate vertical scrolling. GBC displays 10 blocks in width and 8.5 blocks in height. As such, there is vertical scrolling everywhere in the levels in GBC, while there was none in NES/SNES.
When Mario walks off a platform, his initial falling speed is faster in GBC than it is in NES/SNES. This gives GBC an advantage at the start of 1-2.
Paratroopas and bullet bills move slower horizontally in GBC compared to NES/SNES. This change was probably made to give the player fair reaction time in the small screen.
GBC starts moving 1 frame slower than NES relative to the timer.
GBC has the higher ground acceleration of NES/SNES PAL.
Many level endings are missing two blocks in width in GBC. (It takes about 1/2 of a timer tick to run 2 blocks.) In levels with a staircase at the end, the GBC version has a shorter staircase than in NES/SNES - one less step, and thus one block shorter in both height and width. To keep the jump to the flagpole the same, the distance between the staircase and the flagpole is also one block shorter in the GBC version. This applies in levels such as 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, and 2-3.
GBC's starting points tend to be shifted slightly from NES. For example, GBC has a 0.5-block advantage in 1-1. It has a 1.5-block advantage in 2-2. It has a 0.5-block disadvantage in 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-1, and 2-3.
Enemies, firebars, moving platforms, and other moving elements are often in different positions initially in GBC compared to NES/SNES. This and the above fact that some enemies are slower lead to some very different situations when running at full speed:
- 1-1: the first goomba seems to start out closer to you in GBC (as you end up passing it earlier).
- 1-2: the green koopa troopa after the 1-block-high ceiling is a slight distance away from the low ceiling in NES/SNES, but in GBC it's close enough that you need a perfect jump just after the low ceiling to not crash into it.
- 1-2: shortly after the above point, in NES/SNES, the second falling goomba hits you if you're just running on the ground at full speed. In GBC, it's the first falling goomba that gets you. (This all assumes that you don't kick a koopa shell into the area to throw off the enemy timing.)
- 1-3: after the first question block, the red paratroopa is slightly trickier to get past in GBC. In GBC, you need to jump from the left edge of the previous platform to just make it over the paratroopa (and you end up stomping it while jumping up). In NES/SNES, you can jump over the paratroopa fairly easily.
- 1-3: when any of the side-to-side moving platforms appear onscreen, they're initially moving left in NES/SNES, and they're initially moving right in GBC. Since riding platforms right saves a little bit of time, this gives GBC an advantage - you can get a time of 261 in GBC, but just 260 in NES/SNES.
- 1-4: in NES/SNES, the second and fourth firebars end up closely chasing you; in GBC, they're rotating away from you as you run through the corridor.
- 1-4: in NES/SNES, after jumping over the fifth firebar, there's a danger of running into the sixth. In GBC there's no such danger, but jumping between the sixth and seventh firebars is a bit of a tight squeeze.
Miscellaneous level differences:
- 1-2: Mario's initial fall in GBC is 2 blocks less than NES. Adding in the faster initial falling speed and subtracting for the 0.5-block horizontal position disadvantage, GBC has about an 11-frame advantage (about 1/2 of a timer tick) at the start.
- 2-3: the second platform is 2 blocks shorter in GBC than in NES/SNES. Adding in the 2-block end staircase advantage and subtracting for the 0.5-block start position disadvantage, 2-3 is 3.5 blocks shorter in GBC. GBC can finish 2-3 with 242 ticks left, while NES/SNES can only manage 240 (NTSC) or 241 (PAL).
--- Versions
Systems: Nintendo Entertainment System, Super Nintendo Entertainment System, Game Boy Color
NES - Super Mario Bros. (JU/E)
SNES - Super Mario All-Stars (U/E) or Super Mario Collection (J)
GBC - Super Mario Bros. Deluxe (UE/J)
--- NTSC NES,SNES / PAL NES,SNES
PAL has a 0.25-tick advantage over NTSC in accelerating on the ground from a stop to full speed. 0.25 of a tick is 5 frames in PAL terms, and 6 frames in NTSC terms. It is not known what the advantage is when acceleration is not done entirely on the ground, such as in World 1-2 or 1-4.
Jumping Cheep-Cheeps tend to pose more of a threat in PAL than in NTSC. In NTSC, Mario will never get hit by the Cheep-Cheeps if he keeps running right and stays in the lower half of the screen. For some reason, in PAL the Cheep-Cheeps are able to jump farther to the right, so that Mario needs to jump to avoid some of the Cheep-Cheeps at full speed.
--- NES / SNES
Sometimes the NES timer lags behind by 1 to 3 frames, in which case NES may gain an advantage over SNES, with respect to the timer. In both NES-NTSC and SNES-NTSC versions, the timer runs at an average of 1 tick per 24 frames. In both NES-PAL and SNES-PAL versions, the timer runs at an average of 1 tick per 20 frames. However, the SNES timer consistently runs at the average rate, while the NES timer sometimes falls behind by 1 to 3 frames and then catches up in the next one or two ticks. This may make a difference if the NES timer happens to fall behind right at the end of a level.
SNES has a mysterious 1-frame advantage over NES at the beginning of some levels. This means SNES-NTSC has a 1-frame advantage over NES-NTSC, and SNES-PAL has a 1-frame advantage over NES-PAL. The advantage appears in short-distance and full-level running tests conducted in World 2-3, but not in a short-distance test in World 1-2. This advantage is with respect to the timer's starting point.
SNES gives Mario a slightly higher boost from bouncing off of an enemy compared to NES. The vertical boost is about 1 block high in NES, but closer to 1.5 blocks in SNES.
Piranha plants' hitboxes are larger in SNES than in NES. In particular, if Mario jumps and falls straight down onto a piranha plant, you'll notice that Mario's shoes end up lower in the piranha plant sprite in NES than in SNES. This means that Mario can safely pass through more parts of the piranha plant in NES than he could in SNES. This hitbox difference makes some levels harder for the SNES to match the NES, and makes 8-4 strictly slower for SNES.
NES may have a higher tendency to have enemies disappear by scrolling.
--- NES,SNES / GBC
The screen's horizontal and vertical span, in blocks, is much smaller in GBC than in NES/SNES. NES and SNES display 16 blocks in width and enough blocks of height to eliminate vertical scrolling. GBC displays 10 blocks in width and 8.5 blocks in height. As such, there is vertical scrolling everywhere in the levels in GBC, while there was none in NES/SNES.
When Mario walks off a platform, his initial falling speed is faster in GBC than it is in NES/SNES. This gives GBC an advantage at the start of 1-2.
Paratroopas and bullet bills move slower horizontally in GBC compared to NES/SNES. This change was probably made to give the player fair reaction time in the small screen.
GBC starts moving 1 frame slower than NES relative to the timer.
GBC has the higher ground acceleration of NES/SNES PAL.
Many level endings are missing two blocks in width in GBC. (It takes about 1/2 of a timer tick to run 2 blocks.) In levels with a staircase at the end, the GBC version has a shorter staircase than in NES/SNES - one less step, and thus one block shorter in both height and width. To keep the jump to the flagpole the same, the distance between the staircase and the flagpole is also one block shorter in the GBC version. This applies in levels such as 1-1, 1-2, 2-2, and 2-3.
GBC's starting points tend to be shifted slightly from NES. For example, GBC has a 0.5-block advantage in 1-1. It has a 1.5-block advantage in 2-2. It has a 0.5-block disadvantage in 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-1, and 2-3.
Enemies, firebars, moving platforms, and other moving elements are often in different positions initially in GBC compared to NES/SNES. This and the above fact that some enemies are slower lead to some very different situations when running at full speed:
- 1-1: the first goomba seems to start out closer to you in GBC (as you end up passing it earlier).
- 1-2: the green koopa troopa after the 1-block-high ceiling is a slight distance away from the low ceiling in NES/SNES, but in GBC it's close enough that you need a perfect jump just after the low ceiling to not crash into it.
- 1-2: shortly after the above point, in NES/SNES, the second falling goomba hits you if you're just running on the ground at full speed. In GBC, it's the first falling goomba that gets you. (This all assumes that you don't kick a koopa shell into the area to throw off the enemy timing.)
- 1-3: after the first question block, the red paratroopa is slightly trickier to get past in GBC. In GBC, you need to jump from the left edge of the previous platform to just make it over the paratroopa (and you end up stomping it while jumping up). In NES/SNES, you can jump over the paratroopa fairly easily.
- 1-3: when any of the side-to-side moving platforms appear onscreen, they're initially moving left in NES/SNES, and they're initially moving right in GBC. Since riding platforms right saves a little bit of time, this gives GBC an advantage - you can get a time of 261 in GBC, but just 260 in NES/SNES.
- 1-4: in NES/SNES, the second and fourth firebars end up closely chasing you; in GBC, they're rotating away from you as you run through the corridor.
- 1-4: in NES/SNES, after jumping over the fifth firebar, there's a danger of running into the sixth. In GBC there's no such danger, but jumping between the sixth and seventh firebars is a bit of a tight squeeze.
Miscellaneous level differences:
- 1-2: Mario's initial fall in GBC is 2 blocks less than NES. Adding in the faster initial falling speed and subtracting for the 0.5-block horizontal position disadvantage, GBC has about an 11-frame advantage (about 1/2 of a timer tick) at the start.
- 2-3: the second platform is 2 blocks shorter in GBC than in NES/SNES. Adding in the 2-block end staircase advantage and subtracting for the 0.5-block start position disadvantage, 2-3 is 3.5 blocks shorter in GBC. GBC can finish 2-3 with 242 ticks left, while NES/SNES can only manage 240 (NTSC) or 241 (PAL).
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