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General Sonic / Re: What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 18, 2006, 10:32:51 pm »

Thanks y'all for the replies. Much appreciated.

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General Sonic / Re: What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 08, 2006, 12:00:40 am »

As for Silver, I wouldnt call that a glitch, moreso a boss mechanic that the gam abuses. Think about what'd happen if other bosses, like say, Egg Wyvern, just blew up all the platforms instead of attacking you or something

So it's bad by design rather than by accident? :[

We abuse games all the time, its time for them to fight back! >_>

There's nothing wrong with exploiting unintentional aspects of the game's design to gain an edge. I completely agree. Some of the best games made are so because some exploit or glitch elevated them to greatness. In the original Street Fighter 2, the concept of combos and crossups was a complete accident. They existed by the virtue of how the engine was built, Capcom saw this, and used combos as the foundation for every one of their fighters. To this day, fighting games are about combos, and combos even exist in non-fighters. Prior Sonic games also have such "happy accidents." Spin-dash-jumping, a fun and useful tactic since Sonic 2 on the Genesis (arguably more useful in the 3D games), is a great way to clear a huge gap with little room to move.

... I had somewhere I was going with this, but I forgot.

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General Sonic / Re: What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 07, 2006, 01:04:56 pm »

You got a D first time round in WO?

Sheesh, I got a B on my first go c:

My pride would take a bigger hit if that D was the result of carelessness. ;)  But inexplicable deaths have a way of killing a score, let me tell ya.

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General Sonic / Re: What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 07, 2006, 12:46:25 pm »

I have absolutely no problems manipulating the camera to do what I want it to, and I have had no control issues since I got the game.

As glitches, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Knux/Rouge wall glitch, which can be easily avoided in any case.

Right. But you're a long-time Sonic gamer, I assume. I, too, came into this game from Heroes and Shadow, so really, camera trouble is more of a nuisance than anything else, and it is more prevalent in boss fights, where there should've at least been an option to keep it focused on a boss.

That said, I mention that camera because it's another nail in the coffin to me. If the camera was the only problem, I'd be joining fans in telling people to learn how to play, rather than taking the stance that Sonic games are growing steadily worse. The camera may be something you can live with... but, by now, it should've been much better, or at least have several options with how it handles.

Glitches are something I encountered abundantly in my time with Sonic 360, before I gave up on the game and put it away indefinitely. Wandering around Soleanna, wondering why Sonic was so mind-numbingly SLOW, I tried many actions, including spin-dash-jumping (which was inexplicably REMOVED in this game, for anyone who didn't know), and I tried breaking through the invisible walls that some (not all) of the water-side areas have. It didn't take me too long to slip in between a nearby building and a ledge to go careening into the water. Now, that was a glitch I was looking for, and were the game more than what it is, I may have considered this funny... but lo and behold, I've been hit with glitches almost my entire time with the game, including, but not limited to:

Wave Ocean: falling through the water while sliding on it. I didn't hit any button or rock.

Same level's Mach Speed area: getting stuck in walls, eventually losing all my rings and dying.

The snow level: reaching areas on my snowboard where it will just stop moving, unless I align the camera just right, and even then, a couple of times this sent me to my death.

Same level, same section: why, again, can't you jump by just tapping A? You have to hold and release it to jump, for some unknown reason. But even if I do it on a ramp, before reaching that "point of no return" where I fall off of it, it sometimes doesn't trigger. At first I thought it was my timing, but I was doing it the same for every ramp, sometimes triggering the jump, other times dying.

Same level, same section: Rails. It's another hit or miss thing. Sometimes, you'll catch the rail. Other times, you'll bounce off of it or nudge it.

Crisis City, boarding part: same deal, thought its rails seem easier to grasp.

Fighting Silver: an easy S Rank once you know what to do, but if you get cornered, it's over. He can grab you while you're flashing from taking a hit, so if you get hit just right, you get to watch as Silver repeatedly TK grabs you and flings you. I don't mind bosses that can off me in one hit, ala Sonic Rush (in fact I think more bosses should have fatal attacks). But if that's going to happen, just get it over with and don't make me watch 4-5 seconds of me being helpless to stop it.

Just a few that I've encountered. If you haven't, I'll call you lucky. But they are there, and they shouldn't be. Sega's been pulling this for a long time now, and while some glitches are beneficial and lead to some advanced tactics (spin-dashing up walls, etc.), they shouldn't be so abundant as to make clear that the game needed more than just a couple of weeks of testing.

Also, regardless of his posting habits or any agenda he may have, I unequivocally agree with Landis (aside from the fact that it's the worst game ever, since S Genesis is clearly worse).

You speak of the GBA port, correct? I haven't played it, nor do I plan to, as I have Sonic 1 on so many systems already that owning it for the GBA just doesn't seem warranted. I do hear that it's a terrible port, though, and that's a crying shame, for a port of a 15 year old game to cost full price and still not be ported properly. It speaks volumes of modern-day Sega, sadly.

Adapting to each new camera doesn't really bother me. Each game is a different experience and you have to take your time to get a feel for a game at it's fullest.

*snip; I read it but I want to save space*

To tell the truth, I don't really know. I never really think about the camera because it doesn't annoy me much.

Fair enough. Cameras are hard to get right, and while I still insist that having seven 3D Sonic games under their belt (that's more Sonic games than the Genesis had) should raise the bar of our expectations more than it does, I, too, have adapted to bad cameras to play games I wanted to play, the Sonic series included.
________

Okay, so that's the camera. What about gameplay itself? The most important part of any game is its gameplay, IMO, and the entire reason that I ignored all the faults of the Adventure titles, Heroes, and even some of Shadow's were because, underneath the haystack of bad, there was the golden needle of good. But not even that seems to be in Sonic 360.

Playing through the first area, Wave Ocean, a level that, being first, should introduce me to the concepts of the game and give me a taste of what I'm in for. I recall very few parts of that level where I'm actually in control. Not during the loops, where the Adventure method of holding UP the whole way through still gets you through a semi-automatic, visually appealing sequence. Not during the Mach Speed area, a level type where Sonic runs much faster than normal... automatically, giving you only right/left control (and even then, not while jumping, which is just odd). I think the only times I was really, honestly controlling Sonic was while fighting robots, using the "new and improved" delayed homing attack (yes I'm aware that I have to let go of the button to homing attack again sooner; it's still slow and unintuitive), over and over until the mobs were gone. I recall having to control an almost unforgiveably slow Tails, throwing fake rings that look exactly like real rings, with flight not nearly as fast and guideable as in Adventure 1.

And... that's about it. Only a scant few areas where I'm actually controlling Sonic. The first time I played it through, thanks to a bevy of bugs, I got an abyssmal D. The second time, thanks to me forgetting to manually save the game (no more auto-save, another questionable move), I got an S, but I didn't feel like I really earned that S, the same way I earned A ranks in Adventure 2.

The levels following aren't much better. Carrying Elise in a desert where the sand is a pit, for some bizarre reason (lava, in the Flame Core, isn't even a pit, but sand is? yeah, whatever) was dull. I sped through the level as fast as Sonic's new slower speed would take me, hit the end... and got an S Rank, on my first try. I didn't even really feel like I played a level, to tell you the truth. It was just "hold R when you get to the sand, release when you get off of hit, homing attack a few mobs, and... you're done."

As for the Egg Ceberus... it was kinda a cool fight. I was hoping it involved more than just ramming the statues, and I was bothered by the camera, but I didn't come out of it thinking too ill of it, other than the fact that is was an average boss at best.

The snow level... oy. I talked of my pains in the boarding portion above. The rest of the level, while the player is more in control of Sonic than he is during Wave Ocean, is simply unspectacular, not holding a candle to the level designs found in past 3D Sonic titles. It's all just fight, find a spring/fly to the next area, fight, rinse, repeat.

Crisis City is where I finally had enough. I was trying really hard to enjoy the game, as I had been looking forward to it for a LONG time, but after another aggravating boarding segment, I shut off the game, disgusted. I couldn't take anymore.

So that's how I took it. Gameplay. What do you think of it? Everything you hoped for? Nothing? Could be better? Could be worse?

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General Sonic / Re: What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 06, 2006, 11:23:35 pm »

Oh it's that moron from GameFAQs.

So you're actually registering at various sites related to a series you don't like anymore to collect people's thoughts on the game? I guess polluting GameFAQs with this crap wasn't enough eh. What are you hoping for, seriously, tons of bad feedback about the game that you'll post back at GameFAQs with a bold "In your face!" to people who like the game?

That's just pathetic. I suggest you get on with your life, and stay clear of what you don't like. If you can't adapt to difference, then that's just too bad for you. Let people who have skills and know how to avoid glitches and get every bit of fun from a new product alone. We don't need any of this dumb negativity.

Howdy. As I mentioned, I'm gathering opinions. I don't carry baggage over from one forum to another. I came with an honest set of questions, expecting an honest set of answers.

If you're familiar with how I post at GameFAQs, hey, great. But I'll ask, politely, that you refrain from making judgments until you see how I conduct myself HERE, not ELSEWHERE. Of course, that is your call to make.

I guess, though, that there's no point in keeping my thoughts on the game secret, so here goes:

I don't like it. In fact, I think it is hands down the worst Sonic game ever made. Ever. I'm including every Sonic title I can think of, including the GBA fighting game and the Game Gear games. And as someone who loves Sonic games, that's a claim I don't make lightly, nor is it one I really WANT to make.

I'm also having a difficult time understanding how this game, which is very obviously unfinished, with areas, controls, and gameplay that seem like they're in an Alpha state, can earn anything but disgust from a fanbase that has been extremely loyal in the face of a developer (Sonic Team) that just never seems to try to fix glaring problems that have existed with the 3D Sonic titles since Sonic Adventure 1.

That's where I stand. Oh, and I also have a bit of an ego problem. I don't think that anyone really likes this game, but instead plays it believing that this is as good as Sonic can possibly get, perhaps because, really, there's no other place to play games like Sonic. Really, there's no other "fast platformer" game that compares. Adapting to poor controls, a poor camera, and poor gameplay is becoming a tagline of Sonic fans, one that I, at least, am growing sick of. There's a big difference between a learning curve... and a game with shoddy controls and crappy gameplay. It seems that every 3D game, we have to "adapt to the controls," "learn the glitches," "work with the camera," and do ourselves what should have been done in development, rather than focusing on enjoying the game in whatever way we choose, whether simply playing it for fun or for score/time.

Although I haven't played the game myself, and probably won't get the chance to (*insert frown here*), people just can't recognize that it's pretty fucking hard to make a game. Hell, you come to me with a 3D game, and I'll probably complain about everything compared to what flaws we see in present-day Sonic games. You have to recognize that making a 3D Sonic, even at an extremely basic level, would be hard.

Howdy. Understandably, making games is a difficult process, no doubt. That said, this isn't Sonic Team's first attempt at a 3D Sonic game. Or second. This isn't even their *sixth* attempt. It's the seventh (I'm including the GC remakes of the Adventure titles, btw). I would imagine, as hard as it is to get Sonic right in three dimensions, that there's something to be said of the fact that this is attempt #7. Other series, especially Nintendo series like Mario, Zelda, and Metroid, made a pretty successful transition to 3D on their first attempt. No one says Sonic Team had to do it right the first time... but that was 6 tries ago. Is it just not possible to make a decent 3D Sonic? I have a difficult time believing that.

I think the camera is something to get used to. Hell, I've mastered the Shadow camera to the point where I'm pretty damn good at it. Sure, nothing is perfect, but Shadow's camera was a MAJOR improvement over the camera introduced in SA2B (go backwards with ease, camera doesn't default to certain positions afterward, etc.). Some people just don't like things, while others can enjoy something for what it is. Life's just that way.

I, too, adapted to the Adventure, Heroes, and Shadow camera. As I mentioned above, how do you feel about always having to adapt to the camera? 3D cameras are hard to get right; even long-ongoing 3D series that aren't first person in some way have camera trouble. But there's still all those attempts Sonic Team had to get it right before, and that has to count for something.

Not this guy again.
-Personal opinion: I think the base gameplay in Sonic 360 is good. It has its problems, bit IMO, most of them could probably be fixed by a well made patch. I'd place my preference for the 3D games as follows. SA>ShtH>Sonic 360>Heroes>>>>>>>SA2.
-Sonic: The worst gameplay of the bunch. This is because most of the game's problems show up in Sonic's stages. The homing attack is still a lot better than other Sonic games though. Sonic's stages have a lot of good ideas (like gems and mach speed sections), but certains issues weigh them down.
-Shadow: Arguably the best of the game, provided you get off the vehicles. I've always been a battle maniac (grew up with Mega Man, Contra, and Castlevania), so I like heavy combat in my games. Rouge segments stink, but Omega's fine.
-Silver: I was legitimately surprised with Silver's gameplay. Beating the stuffing out of magma demons by throwing trucks and the broken bodies of their fallen comrades never gets old. Blaze plays well to.
-The enemy and boss designs are the best I've seen in years (much better than the lame stuff slapped into SH).
-Yet again, Egg Man is not the final enemy. Since he's never the final enemy these days, I'm just going to call him Mid Boss from now on.

Hello. I agree that a patch, at this point, would be a godsend, and would improve moral against a sect of the fanbase (one that I belong to) that is losing faith in a series they have loved for a long time. That said, a patch would be a bad precedent. Not so much for fixing the game (a good thing), but moreso for the fact that it tells alot about a company that releases a bad game now just to patch it later. PC Gamers have had to contend with such a developer mindset for some time, but the best developers know the turmoil it causes and seek to release finished games with as few bugs as possible, despite the convenience of the internet.

That said, thanks for your reply. Thanks to everyone that replied thus far. Again, I'm here to collect opinions, and yes, I will be debating my side. How I act elsewhere is not how I act here. I want to keep this as civil as you do.

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General Sonic / What do you think of Sonic 360?

« on: December 06, 2006, 04:53:36 pm »

I'm collecting opinions about the new Sonic game on XB360. To that effect, to prevent bias, I'll be saving my opinion until I hear some of yours. Rest assured I have thoughts about Sonic 360, and as a long time Sonic fan, since BEFORE Sonic 1 came out and I saw preview pics of it in a game mag, those thoughts are quite strong, but I don't want to rub anyone the wrong way. Yet.

What do you think of Sonic 360 overall? Do you love it, despise it, or think it is just "okay"?
Are you happy with how it plays, or could it be better? If so, how much better?
Are you happy with how it controls, or could it be better? If so, how much better?
Are you happy with the camera, or could it be better? If so, how much better?
What do you think of the long loading times?

If you really like the game, what do you think of the criticisms people point out (i.e. bad controls, camera, slow characters, it's the 7th 3D Sonic game why isn't it perfect, etc.)?
If you really hate the game, what do you think of the arguments people use to defend it (i.e. feels like an upgrade to the Adventure titles, good story and cinematics, etc.)?

I'm looking for discussion. I've posted similar threads in other forums, but this time I don't want to start with what I think of the game. I want to here what this particular Sonic community thinks before I say what I want to say.

Oh, and I'm no regular, and after I've said what I wanted to say here, I probably won't post again. So, really, I'm nobody in the online Sonic scene. Just a fan who wants to know what others think of this latest chapter.