? Boxes


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New Ruling -- Approve or Disapprove?

Approve
9 (37.5%)
Disapprove
12 (50%)
Undecided
3 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 24

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Offline SpinDashMaster

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? Boxes
« on: January 02, 2012, 09:34:20 pm »
This is a poll where we are debating the potential banning of ? rings in -some- games. I'll leave the opinions for replies to this thread. Here is the proposed ruling, Sonic Advance 3 used as a sample to block the ? boxes, more rulings for other games to come later--

Sonic Advance 3
Rings Divisions
You must use time attack mode in order for your stat to count.

Feel free to state your approval or disapproval, be it publicly or anonymously. You may change your vote in this poll at anytime (due to the fact that many people have changed opinions rapidly on this issue)

Also, it should be noted that should we include this ruling, any old charts affected by them will be passed to a freestyle division, and all players will be required to submit brand new stats for all levels into the new Rings categories.


« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 09:55:07 pm by SpinDashMaster »

Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 09:39:55 pm »
I'm for banning ? boxes in all the handheld games. My knowledge of 3D Sonic games is limited so I don't have an opinion about those yet.
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Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 10:09:17 pm »
ban/move I don't give a fuck.
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Offline werster

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 10:37:56 pm »
No. Now I know y'all hate ? boxes, but no, this idea is pretty bad. You're asking to just take down charts just because suddenly we don't like ? boxes. Newsflash, everyone always hated them. If we were going to make this ruling we should've down it at first.

Second of all, we're bringing consistencies to the site. It's pretty stupid to allow ring boxes in some games, but disallow them in others.

Third of, you're now asking for people to put in stats based on a new rule. How much competition does a game like Sadv3 have? Friggen none. And just about the only hope it has to get new competition are new players going through the game and submitting their stats. And then you're banning the normal mode of the game making their stats invalid? Not only is that stupid, but unless they break a record you wouldn't even know!

Obviously the idea is that it would create more competition. Allow me to end by saying this idea is misguided. I have more reasons why this is stupid, but I can't remember them and whatever. All in all, we all hate ? boxes, but if you're committed enough to do a ring stat, you're going to put up with the bullshit regardless.

Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 10:54:35 pm »
If we were going to make this ruling we should've down it at first.

I don't think that trying to fix errors from the past is a bad idea.

It's pretty stupid to allow ring boxes in some games, but disallow them in others.

Avoiding certain ? boxes is impossible in some games. I like keeping this site as consistent as possible. However, I don't mind trading some consistency for competition, and I'm not the only one who feels this way.


Not only is that stupid, but unless they break a record you wouldn't even know!

Well, that's the case for many of our rules, and that didn't prevent us from setting them to improve competition. This would be simply another example of the same.

Obviously the idea is that it would create more competition. Allow me to end by saying this idea is misguided.

Do you have any arguments to back up that claim? I, for one, never competed seriously in the ring charts of the handheld Sonic games because of the ? boxes and, if we end up banning them, will ring attack those games quite a lot.
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Offline bertin

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 12:28:55 am »
Regarding games that isn't Sonic Advance 3. What would you do about the Scores? Since some games scores are affected by how many rings you have and they happen to have ? boxes in there as well. Other than that I say go ahead and destroy them.

Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 12:45:00 am »
Regarding games that isn't Sonic Advance 3. What would you do about the Scores? Since some games scores are affected by how many rings you have and they happen to have ? boxes in there as well. Other than that I say go ahead and destroy them.

We would do exactly the same than with ring charts; move them to a freestyle category and create new charts for scores achieved without breaking ? boxes.
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Offline werster

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 02:16:56 am »
Zeupar I think you've kinda missed my overlying point. This is creating less competition in two ways. For one, the charts have less stats, and the games (I'm just refering to the Advance series at this point) have little to no competition as is, the new charts would be filled with 2 or so stats, probably yours. You might get the max in those charts, but that's far from competition. Moreover, I could also argue that without ? boxes the charts themselves have less competition value in them as maxes would be much easier to get, with the ? boxes the more time you put in, the better stat you get out, and a record can change hands many times, which in essence is what competition is. But I'll leave that for now...

I don't think that trying to fix errors from the past is a bad idea.

This is not my point at all, my point is if this decision was to be made it -had- to be back then. Now you're just creating more problems than you're solving, and moreover being completely unfair to those who have previously submitted stats.

All in all, just deal with randomness like everyone else, if you're such a fusspot about it there are plenty of other charts out there to compete in.

Offline Magnezone

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 02:32:56 am »
Quote
and moreover being completely unfair to those who have previously submitted stats.
As someone who has suffered through a good portion of these ring attacks in rush/rush adventure, I for one am completely willing to sacrifice the hours upon hours of lost time in my life trying to achieve all 50's in a particular stage to have random ring boxes removed from competition for the rest of time, and I'm sure others would feel the same way if it means that these charts end up being substantially more fun to compete in.

Offline Aitamen

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 03:24:02 am »
Our charts are about the mastery of the game, the maximums possible therein.  Banning things because people feel they're based on luck instead of skill, or for similar reasons of discontent, is contrary to the previously stated purposes of our charts, and inane, so far as I can tell.
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Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 03:50:47 am »
the new charts would be filled with 2 or so stats, probably yours.

I think that in the long term more players would try ring attacking Sonic Advance series if we finally ban ? boxes. Why? Well, compare the number of players here and here.

I don't think that trying to fix errors from the past is a bad idea.
Now you're just creating more problems than you're solving, and moreover being completely unfair to those who have previously submitted stats.

It would be unfair if players couldn't influence in the decision, and that's the reason this poll was created.

Our charts are about the mastery of the game, the maximums possible therein.  Banning things because people feel they're based on luck instead of skill, or for similar reasons of discontent, is contrary to the previously stated purposes of our charts, and inane, so far as I can tell.

That's incorrect. Check our rules and you will realize that you are completely wrong. For example, we have this rule for Sonic Adventure 2 (B): *You may not obtain two speed shoe items within 14 seconds of each other. Edited: Also, we deleted Sonic Heroes' score charts not too long ago when Shadow Jacky discovered they were luck-dependant.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 04:21:35 am by Zeupar »
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Offline bertin

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 04:51:54 am »
Actually, the scores weren't luck dependant its how you hit multiple robots with thundershoot and you end up getting points without damaging the robots which can result in a maximum score with enough time spent into it.

Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 04:59:10 am »
The possibility of putting a time limit to avoid that problem was suggested, but people said it was still random, and that was the sole reason that ultimately lead to the removal of those charts.
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Offline bertin

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 06:27:13 am »
A random amount of points in the bonus...not random as its random if you get any points or not.

Offline Combo

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 06:46:10 am »
Wait, would this mean I would have to go back to SAdv2 and spam R trick again? OH GOD NO PLEASE!@#!!!!!!!!
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Offline Luxray

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 07:58:15 am »
Okay, so this works in Advance 3, but how will this work for games that don't auto-10 ring the ? boxes in TA mode? That's currently the main issue i'm seeing in this.

Quote
and moreover being completely unfair to those who have previously submitted stats.
As someone who has suffered through a good portion of these ring attacks in rush/rush adventure, I for one am completely willing to sacrifice the hours upon hours of lost time in my life trying to achieve all 50's in a particular stage to have random ring boxes removed from competition for the rest of time, and I'm sure others would feel the same way if it means that these charts end up being substantially more fun to compete in.

However, I'm not going to support this. ? boxes make things different in competition, in the fact that you have to commit to doing it over and over again if you want to take the game's championship, rather than finding the record, tying the record, and never touching that chart ever again.

Quote from: Zeupar
I don't think that trying to fix errors from the past is a bad idea.
Now you're just creating more problems than you're solving, and moreover being completely unfair to those who have previously submitted stats.

It would be unfair if players couldn't influence in the decision, and that's the reason this poll was created.

And that's why I'm disagreeing with it. It is unfair to me and other players to have wasted our efforts in proving we have the absolute best, luck manipulated stat, just because we don't like luck manipulations. Before you know it, we'll be banning bosses that use luck to determine attack patterns.

All ring attacks are, are obtaining the most amount of rings possible. If it means having to restart to get that 40 or 50 from a ? box, then that is what it will take. Banning something crucial to the concept of an RA kinda destroys the whole point of ring attacks.
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Offline Zeupar

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 08:56:28 am »
Before you know it, we'll be banning bosses that use luck to determine attack patterns.

I disagree. Remember that we pursue creating more competition with this because many people don't bother with ring attacks because of ? boxes. I don't think this applies to time charts, because they get a lot of attention even when luck is involved.
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Offline Ajavalo

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 02:46:14 pm »
Personally, I find entertaining to try a Ring attack with random boxes, mainly because I don't mind getting the world record, just my personal record, and I can then replay the levels to attempt a higher Ring count. It only gets frustrating when I try for a dozen times to get all the Rings again, and I end up with 5 or 10 less than my top. I can't say if it's better or worse, just... with greater variety of results.

Now, what you should REALLY look into is Team Chaotix's Ring charts in Sonic Heroes. Whenever Team Blast is in effect, you essentially get one random box per defeated enemy. I find that very awkward, and it greatly differs from the general idea of Ring attacking: some levels offer an easy 999 just from spamming Team Blast, and the amount of randomness is so ridiculous that it reaches nonsense and it's not at all entertaining. Changing this would definitely raise competition there, as well as make Chaotix Rings consistent with other teams'. And the only rule we need is "As Team Chaotix, you can't defeat enemies while under the effects of the Team Blast" for the Rings division, and maybe negating that rule for the Freestyle division.
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Offline werster

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 07:32:56 pm »
Those Heroes charts have an average of like 70 people on them, putting their efforts into a freestyle chart would be ass. Especially considering chaotix rings have levels like seaside hill with that long ass infinite fly, just suddenly turning around and saying, welp too bad we don't like luck, is just compete and utter ass.

Another thing is that surely this is not a priority in fixing up the charts. Whatever happened to those future and past charts for Sonic CD? What happened to Nonaggression and Doomsday ring charts? And how about the classic Sky Chase getting a score chart, but not Scrap Brain 3, Wing Fortress, Lava Reef 2 Knux and Death Egg 2.

And why oh why for bosses, do we track rings but not scores for S3DB, scores but not rings for the Rushes, both rings and scores for Sonic 4 and Sonic 06, and then neither rings or score for Advance 1/2.

Instead of just bringing up more and more issues we should be actually going through every issue with the charts one by one and not stopping until something is actually done about it.


Offline Luxray

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 07:45:58 pm »
and then neither rings or score for Advance 1/2?
Advance 1: Rings and Scores are tracked for bosses, as they are in act 2.
Advance 2: Infinite Rings Under a time limit.
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Offline Parax

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 07:51:31 pm »
I'm just gonna voice my agreement with werster, as much as I hate ? boxes it would do more harm than good to get rid of them now.

Offline werster

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2012, 09:21:55 pm »
Advance 1: Rings and Scores are tracked for bosses, as they are in act 2.
Advance 2: Infinite Rings Under a time limit.

I'm refering to X-Zone and Moon Zone for Advance 1, and check your facts because Advance 2 bosses do not have infinite rings, I checked them myself (much like heroes)

Offline Luxray

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 11:42:22 pm »
I'm refering to X-Zone and Moon Zone for Advance 1, and check your facts because Advance 2 bosses do not have infinite rings, I checked them myself (much like heroes)

Well yeah, X-Zone and Moon Zone could use their own charts. And i could've sworn the Adv2 Bosses had respawning rings, i guess i was mistaken then.
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Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 07:11:35 pm »
I really hate ? boxes, but in Sonic Advance 3, They are still hard as hell to get a good amount of rings. I do use Time Attack mode because I'm to lazy to go though the level map. The ? Boxes are part of the rings boxes in the levels. So I don't think this should be banned, but thats just me.
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Offline DATBOI | War Anvil

Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 08:04:11 pm »
Those Heroes charts have an average of like 70 people on them, putting their efforts into a freestyle chart would be ass. Especially considering chaotix rings have levels like seaside hill with that long ass infinite fly, just suddenly turning around and saying, welp too bad we don't like luck, is just compete and utter ass.

Another thing is that surely this is not a priority in fixing up the charts. Whatever happened to those future and past charts for Sonic CD? What happened to Nonaggression and Doomsday ring charts? And how about the classic Sky Chase getting a score chart, but not Scrap Brain 3, Wing Fortress, Lava Reef 2 Knux and Death Egg 2.

And why oh why for bosses, do we track rings but not scores for S3DB, scores but not rings for the Rushes, both rings and scores for Sonic 4 and Sonic 06, and then neither rings or score for Advance 1/2.

Instead of just bringing up more and more issues we should be actually going through every issue with the charts one by one and not stopping until something is actually done about it.


I agree completely with you, werster.  Nobody knows when the chart additions you mentioned are coming because logic battles are usually being waged on a daily basis in Rules Revisions.
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Offline Aitamen

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Re: ? Boxes
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 09:16:03 pm »
iirc, yeah, the heroes thing wasn't because it was random, but rather that it was maxable in every level and the control of it was random, so there was no "just don't do it", because it wasn't intentional in the first place, it just sort of happened.  So the reason was that it wasn't feasible to "just not do it", as opposed to most infinite-tricks (like birds in S3&K before they were un-banned).  That they were random is the reason that *that* was scrapped instead of being amended, and that's fine, but it's unrelated to this.

This requires luck to get a good stat, and if you wanted to ban something for that, I have a list of luck-based-bullshit (or mostly-luck-based-bullshit, for a second list, like the single-frame-botnik'-dash in AR2) I can post and we can start banning arbitrary things all day long.

Also, if "because people don't like it" ever becomes a reason to ban anything, I'd like to ban S06 twice, for good measure.
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