NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference


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Author Topic: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference  (Read 30667 times)

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Offline PimpUigi

It is actually the most fair to have separate lists of NTSC/PAL.
It also doubles the things you can achieve for those games where there is a speed difference.

Sonic CD has a huge difference, not only in Sonic's movement speed, and the timer, but also in the position of UFO's in the special stages.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 03:34:25 am by PimpUigi »

Offline bertin

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2010, 02:39:37 am »
or you could do like the rest of us and just grab you a ROM and change it to PAL/NTSC. /thread

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2010, 02:42:55 am »
^ Plus, NTSC/America Sucks. PAL/Europe is the way to go.
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Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2010, 02:55:28 am »
Er, no.
I'm the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player.
It runs faster, takes way more skill to get good times in, and is the way the game was intended to be played.

My true feelings are that PAL play should be banned in cases of difference, but obviously that's extreme.

I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I think Europe is just as good as America, that's a poultry dilemma, neither here nor there.
But running 1/6th slower is a completely different game, and it's not fair to list both without clarifying.

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2010, 02:58:04 am »
Well that's nice to people like me and all the europeans: ban the console versions for us.

Also maggot plays in NTSC doesn't he?
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Offline bertin

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2010, 02:59:41 am »
Er, no.
I'm the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player.
It runs faster, takes way more skill to get good times in, and is the way the game was intended to be played.

My true feelings are that PAL play should be banned in cases of difference, but obviously that's extreme.

I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I think Europe is just as good as America, that's a poultry dilemma, neither here nor there.
But running 1/6th slower is a completely different game, and it's not fair to list both without clarifying.

>Faster NTSC player
>Not pjmaster

Are you trolling?

Offline bertin

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2010, 03:01:41 am »
Well that's nice to people like me and all the europeans: ban the console versions for us.

Also maggot plays in NTSC doesn't he?

naw unless he hops on a emulator for Special stages. You can't get those kind of times on NTSC. PAL's timer gets massive slow down so you rape times in Special stages in PAL. so they automatically get a huge ass advantage.

Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2010, 03:32:04 am »
I have an emulator, it's not a big deal, I did the Sonic CD special stages on it no problem. It's still not fair to list both times on one chart.

And my point is not to ban PAL times, my point is to list both NTSC and PAL times separately.
I love Europe, screw you for implying I might not.

I am the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player, not PJM.

Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2010, 03:50:21 am »
How about we call it 50hz vs. 60hz instead?? That explains the speed/timing difference.

I'm the fastest 60hz Sonic CD player.
I believe there should be two separate time record lists; 50hz and 60hz

This is the fair way to list records.
This also lets players do BOTH 60hz and 50hz records, rather than just doing 50hz and then being considered faster than 60hz players (which they're not, the videos of 50hz take longer to complete than 60hz)

This is fair since then both sets of players can list records, there can still be a global overall list, and no one gets a short end of any stick.

Offline bertin

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Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2010, 04:10:40 am »
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/total/acts
lol I can play that game too.
I think I would pass him in % if I were to tweak my QQ1 time, or any of the times where he's faster.
I haven't much tried to tweak my times either, so I know I can improve a lot.

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2010, 04:12:40 am »
You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.
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Offline bertin

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2010, 04:12:53 am »
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/total/acts
lol I can play that game too.
I think I would pass him in % if I were to tweak my QQ1 time.

Then do it instead of trying to fight something that will not be changed.

Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2010, 04:15:15 am »
You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.

...you do realize that's why I changed my wording to state 60hz and 50hz...right?
People get an emulator, and play the pal version of the rom, and the game actually runs slower.
Effectively giving them a HUGE timing advantage.

Bertin, I don't care about tweaking my times, when my total is over a minute ahead of PJM's total. I'm not just faster than him, I'm much faster than him.

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2010, 04:16:36 am »
Which is like playing a PAL cart or disc on an NTSC console. It can be done in real life, so nothing is stopping it being tracked here. /thread.
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Offline Ring Rush

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2010, 04:19:30 am »
You want a timing advantage? Rapidly pause. People will hate you for it, and you probably won't get much satisfaction from time attacking, but it will make things easier.

In all seriousness, this is an issue that has been discussed many times, and it has been decided to keep the charts as they are. TAing a few levels would be much more productive than trying to fight for this.
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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2010, 04:21:13 am »
what I want to know is WHY ARE YOU PLAYING SONIC CD
Sonic 1-3&K are the only real Sonic games

Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2010, 04:21:58 am »
It's not fair to players who play 60hz to have to compete against players who play 50hz

Yeah the 60hz players can go and do 50hz too, but that doesn't prove anything other than "players need to play 50hz to get good times."

I think you're missing a lot in the world of fairness here.
It's extremely simple to list if you did something on PAL/50hz or NTSC/60hz

TAing a few levels would be much more productive than trying to fight for this.
Eh, I did all my time attacks. This has very little to do with me, and this affects more games than just Sonic CD (the only game I have times in.)
This would help fairness between all players.

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2010, 04:23:09 am »
it's definitely a different concept entirely from version differences such as SA vs. SA:DX or S3 vs. S3&K levels.
pretty gay IMO

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2010, 04:24:13 am »
I think you're missing a lot in the world of fairness here.

world of fairness




Kid, the world isn't fair. Deal with it. Instead of trying to change something that most likely won't be changed, just go play and come back when you have better times.
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Offline Ring Rush

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2010, 04:27:00 am »
If everyone can go play 50 hz, then it is fair for everyone. If you choose to play 60 hz that is entirely your fault. Among the people who want to get the best times and use 50 hz, the faster people beat the slower people. There is competition, and the better people rank higher than the worse people.
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Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2010, 04:28:59 am »
it's definitely a different concept entirely from version differences such as SA vs. SA:DX or S3 vs. S3&K levels.
pretty gay IMO

My favorite post so far.

And I know the world isn't fair.
Like how Furry's are stereotyped as (well I don't know how vulgar my language can be)
Don't even consider some furry's have wives and are normal.
Perhaps you Lux, are a normal furry.

We can make our submission lists fair though through listing 50hz vs 60hz. We're not the world. We're lucky to have this advantage over the world, and I think we should take advantage of that advantage.

Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2010, 04:32:24 am »
Like how Furry's are stereotyped as (well I don't know how vulgar my language can be)
Don't even consider some furry's have wives and are normal.
Perhaps you Lux, are a normal furry.

..wat is this i dont even...
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Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2010, 04:35:36 am »
I stereotyped you based on your avatar, attitude, and sig. No worries.

Offline Parax

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2010, 04:36:27 am »
why did you start talking about furries O.o

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2010, 04:38:34 am »
I'm offended, PimpUigi. Is this because I'm black?

Offline bertin

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2010, 04:45:59 am »
I stereotyped you based on your avatar, attitude, and sig. No worries.


Offline Luxray

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2010, 04:53:05 am »
Plus you mean judged. Not stereotyped.
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Offline yse

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Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2010, 05:54:09 am »
You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.

*bzzt* Try again!

PAL games were actually so poorly programmed back in the day that they literally did run slower than their NTSC counterparts. This is a non-issue in today's games but everything before at least the N64 has this problem.

Why it doesn't make a difference for timing Sonic games is because the in-game timer is linked to the frame count, so 1 second = 60 frames, even if 60 frames does not equal 1 second. Of course special stages are different, I have no idea how that works. I guess they were aware of the issue and attempted to fix it... but screwed the timer in the other direction? (See also: PAL Sonic Chaos)

I actually think there is merit in tracking the charts that way (like how the Mario Kart site does it), but sadly TSC has done very little in the way of maintaining charts for quite some time now. :( The other thing is that of course, the difference only really matters at the very top end of skilled play, and there just aren't enough highly skilled players to justify the time investment.

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Offline PimpUigi

Re: NTSC and PAL times should be seperate when there is a speed difference
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2010, 06:14:31 am »
I actually think there is merit in tracking the charts that way (like how the Mario Kart site does it), but sadly TSC has done very little in the way of maintaining charts for quite some time now. :( The other thing is that of course, the difference only really matters at the very top end of skilled play, and there just aren't enough highly skilled players to justify the time investment.
Minor victory! Thank you Mike89.
This is an answer I can accept.
You're also so right, there are too few of us...

I hope when TSC starts maintaining their charts a little better that this will be something they fix.
I also hope they'll add past, bad future, and good future stages to the list of Sonic CD stages, but I think there's another topic for that.

Maybe it would help if I got on TSC IRC or something.

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