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Offline F-Man

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2009, 03:05:14 am »
Lastly, my third reason for disliking glitches is a bit personal. I get no sense of accomplishment from it. When using stuff like the Canon's core time freeze glitch, Ice Cap time freeze glitch, and the TBG (during my TBG rampage which caused it to FINALLY get banned) I didn't feel any joy as a result of the new improved time. I felt that my new record was unclean. The sense of challenge and the thrill of self improvement were missing, replaced with a soul less new time. (When I was more active in competition, I thought of making faster times as like a piece of art and a challenge to push my skills to their limits.)
I felt the same way when stuff like the Ice Cap and Casinopolis glitches were found. And when I finally discovered a way to get to that secret capsule in Final Egg, I hated myself. Because I knew that while the stages had become soulless like you said, it just had to be. For instance, I called the Casinopolis (Sonic) shortcut a glitch, but is it really? You use a spindash jump to get to the second floor, as Alondite said, that's a trick, not a glitch. Then you pass through a wall to get to the capsule. But you don't glitch through it. It's not even a wall in programming terms! As the developers didn't expect you to get there as Sonic, they didn't program collision.

The reason it feels soulless is because you get to the end right at the beginning, ignoring the standard path and procedure. But let's take a much smaller shortcut, like in EC2, when you spindash up that vertical road, you'll often end up going to the right and falling to the island more to the right (even when not time attacking), hence skipping a portion of the level. I consider it possible that the developers did not realize this as a possible shortcut. So, what puts it on different grounds than glitches that you think should be disallowed? Most will say that it's not a glitch, because you don't go through a wall or anything, but as far as what's technically possible to do in the game, it's the same thing. The real difference is the sense of scale, that you're only saving a few seconds rather than minutes. But there's no way this should be considered a real way to decide what goes and doesn't, because you would constantly need to draw a line somewhere, on a case per case basis (there are already lots of case-per-case basis if you read the rules, often related to scores and rings, otherwise the competition would just be broken. For times however, even with glitches/shortcuts/techniques/tricks/whatever, competition is not broken).

Ultimately, the line that can be drawn absolutely every time without second-thoughts is: is it technically possible? If yes, and competition still works, then it goes.

Offline yse

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2009, 08:17:43 am »

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Offline Zeupar

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2009, 09:42:22 am »
I'd say glitchs are one of the main reasons I do compete here: they just add so much depth to competition and allow the unimaginable to become possible.

I wholeheartedly agree, Rush Ring.

choosing not to use glitches would be the best way to honor the wishes and competitive definitions of the developers.

We are talking about Sonic Team, dude. Fuck their wishes and competitive definitions. They suck at competition (see Sonic CD). If they want people not to break their games, they should hire competent testers.

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2009, 10:10:18 am »
I'd say that I agree with Alondite on this. My opinion is based on the "would this be legal in a real life race?", "developer's definitions", and "sense of self-improvement" way of thinking. Note that this ONLY applies to obvious glitches.

But see that's the thing, it's not a real life race. I'm sure if you ran real fast and jumped and skipped some corners or something in a marathon that'd be cheating, so does this make running fast and jumping cheating in Sonic? No.

Maybe this is a bad example but basically I did not agree with your logic there >_>
Did you not think I had a mind?

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2009, 11:10:39 am »
I find it kind of insane that you consider disagreement to be a hamper to free speech; if it wasn't for your personal bashing of the current tsc model (I'm using bashing only because you used it, don't get upset over my word choice, it's just for parallel), your opinion wouldn't be out there. As such, it's hardly unfortunate for someone to rebut your argument; that is effectively what you are doing to the main TSC staff. This healthy disagreement is just that (healthy), and I think you should encourage thoughtful responses to your arguments.

You think that the leaderboards should be topped by those with skill; that's an understandable opinion. I agree with you entirely. Where we seem to disagree is the definition of skill. Where you think skill is an ability to play the predefined route at its best optimization, I think it is equally skillfull to play a different route (that happens to be faster) as optimizedly as possible. An important point that needs to be made is there is -always- going to be someone who has a new, better trick than someone else. Tricks shouldn't be banned. I'm sure you agree with this, Alondite. But the flat, honest truth is that people are going to spend time discovering new tricks. People get that -slightly- faster time because they spent the time searching for something different to do than the previous top strategy. It is the way competition works. It takes more than just perfect finger tapping; it takes innovation. What about shortcuts? The person who spends the time looking extensively for a single lucky spindash jump to find a shortcut -only- gets their record because they discovered something a different player didn't know about. This person might -technically- be a less skillful player than the people he or she beats with the shortcut, but that doesn't mean we should ban shortcuts. The essence of TSC is its use of innovation, combined with perfect corner cuts and jumps, to achieve unbelievable sonic play.

There is a difference between a trick and a glitch.  Loops jump, spindash jump, Knux's super-bounce glide...those are tricks and should obviously be allowed.

" Why bother competing if you're going to have to settle for 40th (random placement) at best because you don't know, and don't have the time to find the glitches required to be competitive.  "

This point has two distinct parts that I will tackle separately. First, the low place on a leaderboard as a result of ignorance.

Though I see your basic point, that logic can also be applied to many other parts of competition. Many people have to settle for fourtieth because they don't know an optimal route through a level; should optimal routes be banned? Many people settle for -way worse- than fourtieth in green hill act 1 because they don't know that jumping from the top of a hill and rolling, for some unintuitive reason, increases speed.

But that is a simple game mechanic, not a glitch.  Things that use momentum and slope to increase your speed or jump distance is physics, intended, programmed into the game, they even exist in reality.  Not knowing them is not mastery of the game mechanics.

Take the example of a player who plays a hypothetical (but not unrealistic) 2d sonic game. This player practices this level over and over. The level progresses as a fairly straight path, until it reaches a spring next to a wall. Once taking the spring, the player is shot up to a complicated top path that is extremely hard to optimize. After the top path, the level reverts to the same fairly easy pattern until it reaches the end. One, however, if in the know of its existence, can opt to go through a breakable wall rather than take a spring. This would make the player save tons of time. Our hypothetical player, however, does not know about this breakable wall. The player spends days and days perfecting the top route of the level, getting it down to nearly tas-standard of play. The player is definitely extremely skillful. However, he does not get one of the top times on the chart. Several, more unskilled players have beaten him because they knew of the breakable wall. Do we ban the use of the breakable wall, just because a skilled player may not be knowledgable of it? Do you see the problem in using the ignorant as our basis for legality?

The problem with that, is that hidden routes are NEVER as obscure as glitches, and are never random.  That's like a track runner never moving to the inside lane in a 3200m.  Maybe he can run a 9:00 3200 in the outside lane, but should he just because he can? The inside lane is allowed, so he should run on the inside lane because it's the fastest.  Maybe he has a unique stride or breathing pattern that nobody else knows which give him an edge.  That would be the equivalent of a jump or a roll or some other trick in a Sonic game.  Glitching would be the equivalent of cutting through the midfield.  Sure, you can let everyone cut through the midfield, but if you let them cut, how much? Just half? Or do they keep cutting until they are running circles around the finish line, which bridges the endurance (skill) gap.  If you're running 10m circles that someone who can only run a 15:00 is going to be able to run with someone who could run a 9:00, eliminating all the work put in by that 9:00 runner.  Knowledge is a part of competition, but finding a breakable wall is nowhere near as hard as finding a glitch.  Credit can be given to those that find glitches...congrats on screwing around and breaking the game, but those glitches are going to remain undiscovered by most players who just play through the level as fast as possible.

This problem extends beyond hidden routes. A skilled player may not know the location of a ring box, and thus get an inferior ring attack. A speedrunner might not know that 6 revs is the maximum spindash and thus waste time by over-spindashing. Competition -is- the combination of knowing more, and executing better. That is effectively a definition.

Again, skill is mastery of the game and it's mechanics. Location of a ring box falls into that. 6 revs is something that could could be learned just by trying to go faster.  Less time spindashing, but still get full speed.  It's common sense, considering that sitting there SDing isn't going to make you go faster.

What makes it worse to find a glitch than an equally difficult to find shortcut that doesn't glitch the level?

Shortcuts that don't pass through "impassable" walls don't classify as glitches.  The shortcut in CP1 (maybe CP2) I believe is such a shortcut.  It utilizes the momentum and angle from a jump to jump up to a later part of the stage.  Studying level maps or knowing level layouts can lead to the discovery of such shortcuts, and TSC provides those maps.

The second part of that argument, or the concept that the leaderboards should be dominated by the skilled, not those with time to find glitches:

High level competition -requires- time. It is a silly idea to suggest that the charts shouldn't be dominated by those who invest time. You even agree that is silly. As I quote directly from you,  " I for one, worked hard, and practiced for weeks to get that time. " You are proud to be atop the eh1 charts, and believe you deserve it because you invested weeks into that level. I am curious why you think investing weeks in the discovery of how to do a perfect jump is better than investing weeks in discovering how to bypass a certain area of the level. Your idea that a "skillfull" player deserves to be higher in a chart if he doesn't have the time to find a glitch is -bogus-. Not only did that skillfull player acquire his skill from time spent and time alone (if you disagree with me on this, I would like to see evidence of someone who is good with no practice), but he should have to invest time to get a record too. Even still, a skillfull player should have to learn the niches of a level, not just get a free pass to the top because he can spindash the fastest. There's a reason we have individual level competitions; we measure people on their mastery of individual levels, not sonic's controls as a whole.

I know it requires time, I'm not saying it shouldn't. I don't think though, that knowing a glitch counts a knowledge and skill of a game.  If you take someone who has a top time due to a glitch, and make them run the level on the fastest known non-glitch route.  There's a good chance they won't be able to compete at the top level, because they just aren't as good.  Route planning and speed tricks can be done by playing the game and studying maps, but glitches can only be found by chance in most cases.  If a first time player stumbles across a zip that zips you to the goal ring and suddenly has the WR does he deserve it? That's how the glitches are discovered, and that is why they should be banned, as well as the fact as a rule, glitches cut out parts of the stage, and are easier to do than quickly moving through the cut part of the stage, decreasing the skill necessary to completely the level through artificial, and frequently random ways.

You stated that it is ridiculous to say "one must skillfully get out of bounds and skillfully navigate", and argue that competitive value is destroyed when one glitches. I present to you the following evidence from sa2, showing that levels even take extreme skill and optimization when glitched:

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/aquatic_mine/mission_5 (glitch times range by 25 seconds)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cannons_core/mission_1 (with two glitches that permanently stop time, and an oob shortcut as knuckles, this level is glitched beyond belief. Times that are confirmed to use glitches range from 1:15 to 3:09, with likely glitch times well past that)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cosmic_wall/mission_1 (this one has an oob, long level skip. goes to 37 second range)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/dry_lagoon/mission_3 (the record is 12 seconds, and the glitch range is 6 seconds. That is a huge range for such a short level. Also, the record was hotly competed over (using fastest times to reach a wall, and best manipulation out of bounds) for a very long time)

There is -no way- that glitches destroyed the competition on those levels. The competitive value of some (see cc1 and dl3) skyrocketed with the glitches.

You also say, " It's just another route through a level that may initially require some practice, but in the end, it just cuts the level down and reduces the overall level of skill required to complete the level with a top time."

You say that finding a shorter route through a level reduces the level of skill required, and people shouldn't be given a record just because they took a faster route?

However glitches are discovered through mere chance, or by having programming knowledge and/or knowing how to abuse programming errors.  Shortcuts are found through studying stages and mastery of game mechanics.

By that logic, should someone who -intentionally- takes a slower, non-glitch route through a level beat someone who takes a shorter route, because the person who took the slower route had more to do and thus more skill was required? That's a ridiculous thing to do, and the same applies for new routes discovered through glitches.

Well, let's look at this from a different view.  Personally, I get absolutely no satisfaction from glitching for a good time, no sense of accomplishment.  Is the goal of competition simply to be the fastest (strongest etc...) by any means necessary, or is it to get satisfaction from your accomplishments?  Let's take a hypothetical level.  You practice this level for months, and then you can finally break than 1:00 barrier and take the record.  There is a lot of satisfaction for your hard work to be paid off, but then a week later a glitch is discovered that makes the level beatable in 20 seconds.  Now there is the moral decision.  You, the player to first break the barrier was the best at playing the level without glitching, and if you choose to glitch, you could have the record again because of your knowledge and mastery of the level and the game, because you are the best at said level, but what if you don't want to?  The potential best time for that level may not be achieved based simply on a moral decision.  And what if you do decide to glitch?  Say you do and you beat the level in 16 seconds, easily placing you at #1, do you think there's the same satisfaction as you gt from mastering all the intricacies of the level?  Speaking personally, no, it's not as satisfying.  In fact, I actually feel worse, ashamed even.

Even if one was to decide banning glitches was an acceptable way to deal with the problem, the trouble comes in defining a "glitch". What is a glitch? Is it an unintended consequence of an oversight in game mechanics? Would this make super-bounce glides by knuckles glitches? Should they be banned? The technique is harmless; bounce on an enemy, and glide, and you get super height for super shortcuts. But if someone doesn't know the technique (which is certainly a programming oversight), they are at a disadvantage. How about spindash jumps? I don't think the game producers of Sonic Adventure 2 intended that we take super shortcuts by spindashing, then jumping. In fact, I'm sure of it. Why else would they remove the spindash jump from later games?

Going back to GH1, how about the loopjumping mechanic. It clearly wasn't intended; if the programmers intended to reach super speed through jumping off the top of a loop, players wouldn't die at the bottom of gh1 after performing the tehcnique. Should this strategy be banned as well?

Loop-jumping is a trick.  It's a well-timed jump that takes advantage of how the game is intentionally programmed to use physics for an increase in speed.  If it were a glitch, it would have been removed from future games, but it still exists, the games were made to accommodate this element (like the removal of scroll deaths) because it just happened to be something that was possible through the games mechanics.  Using the momentum from a SD to jump farther is not a glitch, but idevelopers likely saw ways that this could break their levels in ways that would result in walking through walls and other ways, thus limiting the design.  Look at Metroid Prime 2.  In an attempt to do away with sequence-breaking, the entire design of the game was changed.  Items came from bosses, which required the previous boss's item to beat in a lot of cases, and the overall design of the game suffered.  The removal of the spindash jump was likely a precaution taken by ST to prevent such a case.  Having to build levels in such a way where they can't be broken by SD jumping limits the design potential, and it's more difficult that just removing SDjumping altogether.

Would glitches only be about out of bounds glitches? What about glitches that push you through a wall, but stay in bounds? Sonic 3 and Knuckles zips -certainly- require skill, there's a reason only the s3&k elite can pull them off. But since they are glitches most are unaware of, they are considered unfair by your standards.

Another point I'd like to bring up is people aren't -required- to stay uninformed on major walk through walls glitches. Your example of a player failing to compete well because of ignorance can be circumvented through videos. Almost every major glitch in the big games has been caught on video. As such, it is extremely easy to educate the new players (especially skilled ones) and give them the resources to perform the glitch themselves. They might still object on moral grounds; I acknowledge that's what you're doing. Your entire problem of players not doing well because of lack of knowledge ceases to exist, however. What we have left are those who refuse to glitch because they feel unnatural.

But maybe those people don't WANT to glitch, for personal reason.  Maybe they are the best at a level, and could easily take the record if they choose to glitch, but choose to not glitch.  In that way, the charts on not indicative of who is really the best.

That is acceptable! We don't require you use glitches, and we whole-heartedly accept the more "natural" submissions that use everything except programming errors to achieve their times (though the lack of a wall preventing a super shortcut could be seen as a programming oversight, but I digress). Feel free to submit your glitchless times, and feel free to be prideful in your ability to do well without the aid of glitches.

At TSC, however, we rank players on their ability to finish a level with the highest score, rings, or time. And if that takes a clever use of a glitch (that still boils down to skill, pretty much always), then we will accept the submission. Glitches -still- contain competitive value, and are hardly any more harmful than any other advantage a more informed player has over an uninformed one.

I don't plan to change your opinion on glitches. I intend to back up TSC's position on allowing glitches in times and answering questions you posed as to why they are allowed up. Hopefully you see my response as respectful and intelligent, but I guess I can't really help if you see it as persecution and bashing on your values. I don't want to ridicule you, just give a thoughtful response. Thanks for reading!

Well, I've read and responded to much of what you said.  Thanks for responding!







There have been several responses to this topic so far, and I just finished my response so I'm bumping it up so it doesn't get overlooked.

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2009, 12:39:42 pm »
Had my work cut out for me again. But just gopt my 6th Su360 record. Sorry DsS But i dont know how i managed most of my records off you. Lol

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline DsSaster

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2009, 12:49:57 pm »
Nah, it's cool.  Most of my records were pretty rushed, I wanted to get the championship before college started.

Anyway, back on topic.  I have to agree with Stefan on this one, his explanation was better than anything I could come up with.  Yeah, all I have to say is that even if you know what glitches can be used, it still takes skill to get the best time.  If you find a glitch to take a record down from 4 minutes to 1 minute, someone with more skill could bring that down from 1 minute to 50 seconds.  Few records I put a lot of time into, most of them I take it and leave it, but I have fun regardless.  Also, it takes skill to have mastery of the controls no doubt, but finding the best route takes skill as well.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 09:01:13 pm by DarkspinesSonic »
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2009, 12:55:13 pm »
I Asked knucklessonic8 on youtube about glitchs that help you get a good time. i asked were they allowed. He said no. But nhow else would you be able to get 36 secs or whatever it was on CE2D and RR2D. I cant even do them rofl. I Know that RR2D Is possible because i think somehow, you can climb the wall instead of starting lap2/3. Omfg i have no idea what im on about. And nice work on SS2D That was very hard and frustrating to beat. I havent submitted it yet but i got 26:25 =]

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline Stefan

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2009, 01:17:50 pm »
Ok, so there were two main disagreeing replies, I'll take them one at a time. For magnum's post:

Your parallel of a race track is interesting. Here is a model race track, for my hypothetical example purposes. (% is the start and finish, the > is a ramp, and the 8 is a place where a walk through walls glitch has been discovered.)

___________________________
(   _______________________    )
|__________________    8  |      |    |
 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||       |     |     |                 
 |    % _ _______ > _______ )__|      |
( ___________________________  )

Your objection to strategies on the racetrack are based on those that were intended to be used. The ramp in this race track was intended only for the aesthetics of flying high. However, a keen player notices that if you hit the ramp from a right angle, you can skip a series of sharp turns and land roughly on the other side of the "8". This is a shortcut, not a glitch. It uses intended game mechanics, intended physics, and intended controls to skip a huge amount of track, though it wasn't intended itself.  Taking the shortcut doesn't put you out of bounds, just over walls that are there to prevent you from skipping that area.

On the same track, a keen player discovers a "drive through walls" glitch where the 8 is located. It takes extensive game knowledge to figure it out, and is also an unintended result of intended game controls. It saves less time than the ramp trick does. It however, requires that someone breaks through a wall, rather than fly over it. The sense of being "natural" is lost. Though saving less time than the ramp trick, and just as unintended by the programmers, this wall glitch is highly denounced.

But why so? It's less significant than the shortcut is. It still requires extreme knowledge of the level. It still requires unintended use of intended physics.

Glitches are simply taboo, despite often being just as harmless (or harmful, if you look at it that way) as practices more widely considered legal.

You brought up a point about game developers disallowing glitches in online play. I believe this happens for two reasons. First, game developers often don't want people to be doing the best they possibly can. Unlike TSC, WOW is based off the idea that anyone can succeed. Where TSC's goal is to have ultimate sonic playing through innovation and technical skill, Blizzard's goal is to give everyone a fair shot and enjoyable game experience. They are selling WOW, and fewal er people are going to buy it if they automatically lose to players that glitch.  That vested interest is crucial in keeping glitches out of well known MMOs. Second, game developers dislike the use of glitches because it proves their game was imperfectly designed. If you welcome the use of glitches in online play, you are openly displaying the fact that your game was poorly programmed. Glitches look bad for game developers game-making abilities, so as long as they are in a power to prevent glitches from being used, they will.

It is understandable that you feel unclean when using glitches; I occasionally do, too. I often feel like it would be more fun to ta a level had a certain glitch not been discovered. But the ultimate goal of competition is to do the best. Alondite compared the use of glitches to the use of steroids; I find this an incorrect comparison. A more apt parallel to steroids in sonic would be super sonic, or "sss" (a sa2 trick that allows sonic to gain speed up to a degree of 7, I believe), increasing sonic's performance. Interestingly enough, both of those tricks are banned. What I feel, time and time again, is that a player doesn't have to use glitches. If they feel soul-less to you, don't use them. Or you can use them, and personally recognize your more natural time attacks. I often have more respect for a glitchless time that is outstanding than a glitch time that isn't. TSC, however, allows glitches. So when simply comparing the best times on levels, we go by the best times on levels. Period.

To alondite:

What -is- the difference between a trick and a glitch. I asked that during my post, and you didn't respond. You simply started your post by saying tricks and glitches are different.

So right now, what -is- a glitch? Until you define it, I am going to continue using my definition is "an unintended use of a programming error". The CP2 "gain tons of speed and jump, somehow pushing you through a wall" falls into this. Knuckles's superglide falls into this (at least until you can give me evidence that the sonic physics were intended to shoot you really high in the air when you glided when bouncing on an opponent). GH1's loop jump is certainly unintended, and the argument can definitely be made that it was a programming error (it's hardly intuitive).

You say that shortcuts that arise simply from use of intended physics are allowable. Here are several examples of shortcuts can arise from unintended use of intended physics. I will reference the direct physics in question, which were certainly intended, in defining these tricks as legal shortcuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRJlj1x1w5I&feature=channel_page At :39 in this video, sonic hits a shield monitor from underneath, triggering the intended fall of the monitor. (Monitors are programmed to do this, as one could find out playing other sonic 1 levels). The monitor then falls on top of sonic, pushing sonic out to the side. This is another intended game mechanic, otherwise sonic would be inside the monitor. Sonic then pushes left, which is a movement into a wall. The wall then pushes sonic in the opposite direction. This is a phenomenon that exists in the real world, known as the "normal force" in physics. To prevent sonic from being easily able to walk into a wall, the game naturally ejects sonic upon collision with a wall. The result: a legal game trick that was entirely the process of a smart player who knew sonic's physics very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be9-JA0-agw&feature=channel_page This video has several tricks/glitches in it, but I will focus entirely on the first one. In this trick (starting at :09), sonic builds up his momentum by charging a spindash. He releases the spindash, creating an extremely high rate of speed. While next to a small wall, sonic bounce attacks. The momentum preserved by the spindash gets preserved by the bounce attack, sending sonic extremely high in the air. This, so far, is a case of using intended physics and momentum. Sonic then, with an extremely high height, homing attacks over a wall. This, up to now, had remained inside the boundaries of the level. Sonic then directs himself to a lower part of the level, skipping a large portion of the level between the two points. Legal? The player is a skilled player, with an obvious mastery of sonic's controls, who uses perfect timing and a manipulation of momentum to make a huge shortcut. Though this method of completing the level was later found to be slower, due to tricks in the portions of the level that were skipped, it still will immediately raise that taboo feeling in people, despite being a crafty use of momentum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVTesjmAnI This level too utilizes the "superbounce" trick, which is just a conservation of momentum from a spindash into a bounce. In this video, sonic changes gravity, and then goes to a high wall on a purple block. Sonic uses the superbounce technique to get to an area that was intended to be unreachable. Gravity still being upside down, sonic spindash jumps to the bottom of the platform containing the goal ring. Keep in mind, the goal ring has a green "barrier" in front of it, so it should be impossible to reach the goal ring without first pressing a switch. Sonic, still upside down on the underside of the goal platform, a place that should not be reachable, walks behind the goal and into a death plane. Sonic then moves towards the goal ring, hitting it upside down from the back (An area that was never intended to be reached, but does not require any wall glitches). This whole sequence of events skips a minute long platforming section that requires to travel to multiple blocks, hit a switch, and reach the top of the goal ring platform. By using momentum and gravity, two very obviously intended physics features, the whole area can be bypassed. Legal?

Another thing you brought up was that glitches, even if they do take a time investment, shouldn't count because they are based on luck. That, in my opinion, might be the most fallacious logic that is screwing up your opinion on glitches. I'm going to state something right now, that might go against your fundamental beliefs on the issue. Glitches are -not- luck. They aren't random either. There is a reason players like DSS and SM consistently find glitches, while other players don't. SM and DSS have such an exceptional mastery of sonic's controls (they really do!) that they are consistently able to find ways to use sonic's intended controls to do unintended things. SM doesn't just have mother luck on his side all the time; he knows how to glitch things, and he knows how to use sonic to do it. Talking specifically about the newly found unleashed glitches, I am certain that DSS did not accidentally stumble upon them. By doing a certain combo, sonic, for a moment, pushes his body forward. Shielding in the game always stops a combo. By shielding at the exact, very difficult to time frame of a certain combo, you can stop sonic as he is pushed forward. DSS noticed this, and discovered that he could use this momentum to push sonic through walls. DSS is hardly a bad unleashed player; he was dominating rankings well before he discovered that you can push werehog through thin walls. He discovered these glitches SINGLE HANDEDLY by having a mastery of werehog's controls and a KNOWLEDGE of how to glitch things. Once breaking out of bounds, he needs to have a MASTERY of level design to get back in bounds at the best place possible. This is not a -chancy- cut. It takes planning and skill. Chance -was not- the reason he found it. Skill was.

I would like you to review another video (lol, so many of them!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P_U3TQ0tYM

If you believe that a random player could "chancily" stumble upon this glitch, or that a player without -pixel perfect- knowledge as to eternal engine's level design could pull this off, you have some very flawed assumptions. SM needed to figure out how to angle tails to jump into a floor panel, and push himself through the floor. That -alone- takes extreme level mastery. But that isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting out of bounds, and knowing the -exact route to take-, while OUT OF BOUNDS, to reach the end of the level and not hit any kill planes. That undeniably takes skill and an extensive knowledge of the level at question.



You compared sonic racing to running on a track. While I have a hard time comprehending your "running on the outside of a track" analogy, and still don't understand how it relates to the argument at hand, I do notice that you compared finding a glitch to cutting across the middle of the track. First, a racing track has specific rules that you are to run a predetermined distance in a specific amount of time. The reason they don't let a runner cut 200 meters off the 400 meter dash is specifically that; he is being measured on his speed at running 400 meters. In sonic games, this isn't the case. We don't measure your speed at completing a certain length of sonic level, we measure your speed at completing the sonic level, period. Whatever distance of running that requires is irrelevant; the goal is to finish.

Even if we -were- to argue that the point of competition is to complete a certain distance in the fastest time possible, glitches aren't the only thing that would be considered "running across the middle". Taking a huge shortcut (that you consider legal) is also skipping a portion of the level. If your objection is to people skipping parts of levels (which I assume it isn't, but which would be the only reasonable running track parallel), shortcuts are just as dishonest as glitching.

You again brought up the concept of ignorance as to glitches being a reasonable reason to ban glitches. I thought I handled this well in my first post, so you can check that again. I'll state a couple things here, though. Shortcuts can often be as difficult to notice for a novice player (I don't expect most people that are just speeding through the level to know about that crazy gadget shortcut I posted above). Shortcuts are equally as unfair to the ignorant as glitches.

Yes, there is a chance that a great glitcher may not be able to compete at a high level in the non glitch route. This is true. There is also a chance that they are, however. And as seen by yoshifan and DSS, who are exceptional 3d sonic players with both glitches and no glitches, skill at both tends to correlate.

"Route planning and speed tricks can be done by playing the game and studying maps, but glitches can only be found by chance in most cases."

Many glitches take knowledge as to where the optimal place to break out and in bounds. Taking DSS's newly discovered werehog trick (here comes ANOTHER video lol), he knows exactly which walls to break out of bounds from. He then knows, from out of bounds, where the rest of the level happens to lie, and breaks back into bounds in the optimal spot. That is unarguably extensive level knowledge, that I would equate equal to the study of maps to find shortcuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8Pd1lp2Q0

And once again, since you keep bringing up the role of chance in finding glitches, I have to state a fact:

VERY FEW GLITCHES ARE DISCOVERED ACCIDENTALLY. ALMOST ALL OF THE GLITCHES, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE MOST EXTREME, WERE DISCOVERED THROUGH EXTENSIVE PLANNING AND KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO MANIPULATE PHYSICS.

There is -no- other reason that players such as SM and DSS would be able to stumble onto glitches so consistently.

Another quote from you: "If a first time player stumbles across a zip that zips you to the goal ring and suddenly has the WR does he deserve it? That's how the glitches are discovered, and that is why they should be banned, as well as the fact as a rule, glitches cut out parts of the stage, and are easier to do than quickly moving through the cut part of the stage, decreasing the skill necessary to completely the level through artificial, and frequently random ways."

This has a few questions. Yes, I believe that if a first time player randomly stumbles onto a wall zip that skips the whole level, he deserves the record. He has the fastest time. He will also, due to prompting from TSC Staff (probably accusing him of lying), reveal his glitch and allow the better players to beat his times. He will have accidentally discovered an important glitch, and should get credit for it (despite how unlikely this situation could ever even happen is). That's -not- how glitches are discovered, and I've stated that multiple times by now.

Second, you again made the point that it is unfair for a player to take an easier route, because it requires less skill. I would like to redirect you to my hypothetical sonic level in my first post. Do we ban the rollable wall because it is an easier, less skillful route, and make everyone take the top route because it has no skill? No, because this destroys the idea of getting the fastest time. Arbitrarily forcing people to take the tougher of two options is not enforcing competition, it's enforcing imposing limits on people that don't need to be there.

And glitching through a level might take less skill, some times. I debate that this is always the case, however. Marble 3 ( http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_1/times/marble_3 ) has an extremely difficult to execute glitch, that requires 3 consecutive frames of pressing alternating directions at the -exact- time. This glitch takes -huge- amounts of skill to perform correctly, and is hardly an "Easy way out" to an uneasy level path. Those who can pull off the marble 3 glitch with such perfection as maggot and sonic62 should be heralded for their skillful playing, not chided because they skipped the normal level route.

Your concern about the morals and personal satisfaction from glitching is a real concern, and I see no reason why you should personally feel differently. That is the question of an opinion of personal achievement, and everyone has a different feeling on what achievement really is. If you feel that glitching through a level is cheating yourself, and you feel more accomplished from skillfully playing the level the normal way, I have no intention of stopping you. I have respect for your ability to stand up for your personal beliefs. However, I also feel respect for those who have the incredible ability of finding ridiculous level routes through glitches, and I don't feel that we should force our personal opinions of achievement on them, either. This website is for the fastest sonic times, and glitches give faster times.  Competition is still evident in glitches, and they do not take away from the essence of beating a level as quickly as possible. As such, TSC, and objective community, will recognize the faster times as being faster. It has no morals on personal achievement. If SM doesn't feel like he's cheating himself when he glitches a level, he shouldn't have to restrain from submitting because someone else feels cheated for him.

Man, this post came out much longer than I expected. Thanks for reading, again. I still want your definition of a glitch, which is a very important thing to know in a debate centering entirely around the legality of glitches. I attempted to rebut each of your points thoroughly, and I used evidence to back myself up. That's my two cents on the matter (and the TSC administrative two cents as well, as far as I know). Thanks, again.


Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2009, 01:25:19 pm »
According to some of you, nothing is really a glitch because it comes from the developer's programming. If a developer didn't put a real wall somewhere because they didn't think you'd ever get there, it's not a glitch. If a trick with the controls gave you some sort of "ghost" frames to walk through walls, it's not a glitch because the developers made it that way.

Point is, if the devs never IMAGINED it could happen (there are some things you can do, like boost-jumping past a platform, that they may not expect but still allow for), it's a glitch.

Offline Firstkirbyever

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2009, 01:25:43 pm »
Yeah, all I have to say is that even if you know what glitches can be used, it still takes skill to get the best time.  If you find a glitch to take a record down from 4 minutes to 1 minute, someone with more skill could bring that down from 1 minute to 50 seconds.

is it me or does that sound like Shamar "arid Sands" night 1 >_>
"Don't like sea-food? Well there is GROUND beef!"

Offline flying fox

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2009, 02:31:32 pm »
Yeah, all I have to say is that even if you know what glitches can be used, it still takes skill to get the best time.  If you find a glitch to take a record down from 4 minutes to 1 minute, someone with more skill could bring that down from 1 minute to 50 seconds.

is it me or does that sound like Shamar "arid Sands" night 1 >_>

It is I brought the record down to 4 mins then not very long later DsS broke the werehog and got it down to 1 min :D

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2009, 03:24:36 pm »
Ok, so there were two main disagreeing replies, I'll take them one at a time. For magnum's post:

Your parallel of a race track is interesting. Here is a model race track, for my hypothetical example purposes. (% is the start and finish, the > is a ramp, and the 8 is a place where a walk through walls glitch has been discovered.)

___________________________
(   _______________________    )
|__________________    8  |      |    |
 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||       |     |     |                 
 |    % _ _______ > _______ )__|      |
( ___________________________  )

Your objection to strategies on the racetrack are based on those that were intended to be used. The ramp in this race track was intended only for the aesthetics of flying high. However, a keen player notices that if you hit the ramp from a right angle, you can skip a series of sharp turns and land roughly on the other side of the "8". This is a shortcut, not a glitch. It uses intended game mechanics, intended physics, and intended controls to skip a huge amount of track, though it wasn't intended itself.  Taking the shortcut doesn't put you out of bounds, just over walls that are there to prevent you from skipping that area.

On the same track, a keen player discovers a "drive through walls" glitch where the 8 is located. It takes extensive game knowledge to figure it out, and is also an unintended result of intended game controls. It saves less time than the ramp trick does. It however, requires that someone breaks through a wall, rather than fly over it. The sense of being "natural" is lost. Though saving less time than the ramp trick, and just as unintended by the programmers, this wall glitch is highly denounced.

But why so? It's less significant than the shortcut is. It still requires extreme knowledge of the level. It still requires unintended use of intended physics.

Glitches are simply taboo, despite often being just as harmless (or harmful, if you look at it that way) as practices more widely considered legal.

You brought up a point about game developers disallowing glitches in online play. I believe this happens for two reasons. First, game developers often don't want people to be doing the best they possibly can. Unlike TSC, WOW is based off the idea that anyone can succeed. Where TSC's goal is to have ultimate sonic playing through innovation and technical skill, Blizzard's goal is to give everyone a fair shot and enjoyable game experience. They are selling WOW, and fewal er people are going to buy it if they automatically lose to players that glitch Like how Sonic competitors who value pure play are going to lose out because they don't want to glitch, and thus will not compete.  Why compete if you can't achieve high ranks? .  That vested interest is crucial in keeping glitches out of well known MMOs. Second, game developers dislike the use of glitches because it proves their game was imperfectly designed. If you welcome the use of glitches in online play, you are openly displaying the fact that your game was poorly programmed. Glitches look bad for game developers game-making abilities, so as long as they are in a power to prevent glitches from being used, they will.

It is understandable that you feel unclean when using glitches; I occasionally do, too. I often feel like it would be more fun to ta a level had a certain glitch not been discovered. But the ultimate goal of competition is to do the best. Alondite compared the use of glitches to the use of steroids; I find this an incorrect comparison. A more apt parallel to steroids in sonic would be super sonicExcept super sonic is programmed into the game, and is intended by the developers as an added bonus.  Steriods were not made by athletic associations to boost player performance, or "sss" (a sa2 trick that allows sonic to gain speed up to a degree of 7, I believe), increasing sonic's performance. Interestingly enough, both of those tricks are banned. What I feel, time and time again, is that a player doesn't have to use glitches. If they feel soul-less to you, don't use themWhich begs the question then...why compete at all?. Or you can use them, and personally recognize your more natural time attacksYeah, recognize that they are nowhere near glitched stats that may even be EASIER to do well.. I often have more respect for a glitchless time that is outstanding than a glitch time that isn't. TSC, however, allows glitches. So when simply comparing the best times on levels, we go by the best times on levels. Period.

To alondite:

What -is- the difference between a trick and a glitch. I asked that during my post, and you didn't respond. You simply started your post by saying tricks and glitches are different.

A glitch is any abuse of ERRORS.  Obviously, you are never supposed to pass through a wall that the developers programmed to be impassable. That is a glitch.  jumping in a loop is use of game physics in an unexpected way, but it is not an error.  Sonic is SUPPOSED to go faster when going downhill, but a loop jump gives you an angle that gives sonic a substancial boost in speed.  Unintended, but not an error. As I've said before, later games actually accommodated this element.

So right now, what -is- a glitch? Until you define it, I am going to continue using my definition is "an unintended use of a programming error". The CP2 "gain tons of speed and jump, somehow pushing you through a wall" falls into this. Knuckles's superglide this is something that could be argued as being a glitch, or an unintended result of the game's physics.  The game wasn't programmed to PREVENT this from happening like it is programmed to prevent you from moving through solid walls, so it's not a clearly one or the other.  This is the type of "glitch" that I might consider legal, because it's not clearly a glitch.falls into this (at least until you can give me evidence that the sonic physics were intended to shoot you really high in the air when you glided when bouncing on an opponent). GH1's loop jump is certainly unintended, and the argument can definitely be made that it was a programming error gaining speed when going downhill was intended.  Using momentum and angle from a jump to enhance this speed boost is unintended.  loop jumping is well known,and is still present even in the new games.  It's hard for me to believe that it's a glitch when it hasn't been removed after this long. (it's hardly intuitive).

You say that shortcuts that arise simply from use of intended physics are allowable. Here are several examples of shortcuts can arise from unintended use of intended physics. I will reference the direct physics in question, which were certainly intended, in defining these tricks as legal shortcuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRJlj1x1w5I&feature=channel_page At :39 in this video, sonic hits a shield monitor from underneath, triggering the intended fall of the monitor. (Monitors are programmed to do this, as one could find out playing other sonic 1 levels). The monitor then falls on top of sonic, pushing sonic out to the side. This is another intended game mechanic, otherwise sonic would be inside the monitor. Sonic then pushes left, which is a movement into a wall. And here is the glitch.  No matter what the circumstances, sonic is never intended to move into a wall.  Walls are there for a reason. The wall then pushes sonic in the opposite direction. This is a phenomenon that exists in the real world, known as the "normal force" in physics. To prevent sonic from being easily able to walk into a wall, the game naturally ejects sonic upon collision with a wall. The result: a legal game trick that was entirely the process of a smart player who knew sonic's physics very well. Knowledge of the game, or the game's programming?  Programming knowledge is NOT common knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be9-JA0-agw&feature=channel_page This video has several tricks/glitches in it, but I will focus entirely on the first one. In this trick (starting at :09), sonic builds up his momentum by charging a spindash. He releases the spindash, creating an extremely high rate of speed. While next to a small wall, sonic bounce attacks. The momentum preserved by the spindash gets preserved by the bounce attack, sending sonic extremely high in the air. This, so far, is a case of using intended physics and momentum. Sonic then, with an extremely high height, homing attacks over a wall. This, up to now, had remained inside the boundaries of the level.At which point it becomes a glitch.  Also, even if the wall bypassed is an "invisible wall" it could be considered a glitch, because invisible walls are meant to prevent such things from happening without cluttering up the game world. Sonic then directs himself to a lower part of the level, skipping a large portion of the level between the two points. Legal? The player is a skilled player, with an obvious mastery of sonic's controls, who uses perfect timing and a manipulation of momentum to make a huge shortcut. Though this method of completing the level was later found to be slower, due to tricks in the portions of the level that were skipped, it still will immediately raise that taboo feeling in people, despite being a crafty use of momentum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVTesjmAnI This level too utilizes the "superbounce" trick, which is just a conservation of momentum from a spindash into a bounce. Is it as simple as that, or is there more to what is happening?  Was this removed from future games?In this video, sonic changes gravity, and then goes to a high wall on a purple block. Sonic uses the superbounce technique to get to an area that was intended to be unreachable. Gravity still being upside down, sonic spindash jumps to the bottom of the platform containing the goal ring. Keep in mind, the goal ring has a green "barrier" in front of it, so it should be impossible to reach the goal ring without first pressing a switch. Sonic, still upside down on the underside of the goal platform, a place that should not be reachableAnd therein lies the glitch, walks behind the goal and into a death planeAt which point he should die, and if he doesn't then this is a glitch. Sonic then moves towards the goal ring, hitting it upside down from the back (An area that was never intended to be reached, but does not require any wall glitches). This whole sequence of events skips a minute long platforming section that requires to travel to multiple blocks, hit a switch, and reach the top of the goal ring platform. By using momentum and gravity, two very obviously intended physics features, the whole area can be bypassed. Legal?

Another thing you brought up was that glitches, even if they do take a time investment, shouldn't count because they are based on luck.not that glitches are luck, but that many glitches are obscure and found by chance, or at least the method to using the glitch in effective ways discovered by chance, not skill. That, in my opinion, might be the most fallacious logic that is screwing up your opinion on glitches. I'm going to state something right now, that might go against your fundamental beliefs on the issue. Glitches are -not- luck. They aren't random either. There is a reason players like DSS and SM consistently find glitches, while other players don't. SM and DSS have such an exceptional mastery of sonic's controls (they really do!) that they are consistently able to find ways to use sonic's intended controls to do unintended things. SM doesn't just have mother luck on his side all the time; he knows how to glitch things due to his knowledge of the game's PROGRAMMING above all else.  That is not common knowledge.  Most NFL players can't draw up successful plays, but they can still perform at a high level, and he knows how to use sonic to do it. Talking specifically about the newly found unleashed glitches, I am certain that DSS did not accidentally stumble upon them. By doing a certain combo, sonic, for a moment, pushes his body forward. Shielding in the game always stops a combo. By shielding at the exact, very difficult to time frame of a certain combo, you can stop sonic as he is pushed forward. DSS noticed this, and discovered that he could use this momentum to push sonic through wallsRegardless of the method used, walls are meant to stop you and never meant to be passed through, making this an obvious glitch.  Also is it that since you can also fall through floors with this that he didn't accidentally use the exact timing for this combo during the game and fall through the floor?  That would be considered an accident.. DSS is hardly a bad unleashed player; he was dominating rankings well before he discovered that you can push werehog through thin walls. He discovered these glitches SINGLE HANDEDLY by having a mastery of werehog's controls and a KNOWLEDGE of how to glitch things.Knowledge of how steroids affect the body doesn't mean that they should be allowed.  Knowing how to glitch is not knowledge of game mechanics.  I would argue that it's more knowledge about game programming than mechanics.  Most people don't know how to glitch, yet still have tremendous skill and knowledge of the game mechanics and level design. Once breaking out of bounds, he needs to have a MASTERY of level design to get back in bounds at the best place possible. This is not a -chancy- cut. It takes planning and skill. Chance -was not- the reason he found it. Skill was.Skill is more knowing how to use it.  However, if there are fewer obstacles to the goal, it takes less skill to get there quickly.  All it takes is knowing the glitch and watching a video for one to be able to perform said glitch and get a comparably good time, even if they don't have the skill.  Credit to where credit is due, DsS discovered the glitch and how to use it due to skill and knowledge, but others can replicate it without either

I would like you to review another video (lol, so many of them!).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P_U3TQ0tYM

If you believe that a random player could "chancily" stumble upon this glitch, or that a player without -pixel perfect- knowledge as to eternal engine's level design could pull this off, you have some very flawed assumptions. SM needed to figure out how to angle tails to jump into a floor panel, and push himself through the floor. That -alone- takes extreme level mastery. But that isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting out of bounds, and knowing the -exact route to take-, while OUT OF BOUNDSBut how is that knowledge of the mechanics and level design if it's not even part of the level?, to reach the end of the level and not hit any kill planes. That undeniably takes skill and an extensive knowledge of the level at question.



You compared sonic racing to running on a track. While I have a hard time comprehending your "running on the outside of a track" analogy, and still don't understand how it relates to the argument at hand, I do notice that you compared finding a glitch to cutting across the middle of the track. First, a racing track has specific rules that you are to run a predetermined distance in a specific amount of time. The reason they don't let a runner cut 200 meters off the 400 meter dash is specifically that; he is being measured on his speed at running 400 meters. In sonic games, this isn't the case. We don't measure your speed at completing a certain length of sonic level, the distance is not what I was arguing.  The distance being run is parallel to a single sonic level.  TSC measures how quickly you can get through a level, but out of bounds is not part of the level, much like the infield, despite existing, is not part of the track. Now what if you have someone running say, 1600m downhill?  He's going to be going faster despite going the same distance.  He may not be able to run a flat 1600m as fast though, so does he deserve to be ranked better because he realizes that running downhill is easier? we measure your speed at completing the sonic level, period. Whatever distance of running that requires is irrelevant; the goal is to finish.

Even if we -were- to argue that the point of competition is to complete a certain distance in the fastest time possible, glitches aren't the only thing that would be considered "running across the middle". Taking a huge shortcut but shortcuts do not enter the level.  OOB is not the level, and I would argue that being inside a wall is not part of the level either, because developers did not add obstacles in walls for you to avoid, and platforming elements to navigate because inside the wall is not part of the level.(that you consider legal) is also skipping a portion of the level. If your objection is to people skipping parts of levels (which I assume it isn't, but which would be the only reasonable running track parallel), shortcuts are just as dishonest as glitching.

You again brought up the concept of ignorance as to glitches being a reasonable reason to ban glitches. I thought I handled this well in my first post, so you can check that again. I'll state a couple things here, though. Shortcuts can often be as difficult to notice for a novice player (I don't expect most people that are just speeding through the level to know about that crazy gadget shortcut I posted above). Shortcuts are equally as unfair to the ignorant as glitches.

Yes, there is a chance that a great glitcher may not be able to compete at a high level in the non glitch route. This is true. There is also a chance that they are, however. And as seen by yoshifan and DSS, who are exceptional 3d sonic players with both glitches and no glitches, skill at both tends to correlate.

"Route planning and speed tricks can be done by playing the game and studying maps, but glitches can only be found by chance in most cases."

Many glitches take knowledge as to where the optimal place to break out and in boundsbut knowing how to break out of bounds is not knowledge of game mechanics, because being able to break oob is not a game mechanic, or part of the stage design.  In fact, being oob is not even part of the stage.. Taking DSS's newly discovered werehog trick (here comes ANOTHER video lol), he knows exactly which walls to break out of bounds from. He then knows, from out of bounds, where the rest of the level happens to lie, and breaks back into bounds in the optimal spot. That is unarguably extensive level knowledge, that I would equate equal to the study of maps to find shortcuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8Pd1lp2Q0

And once again, since you keep bringing up the role of chance in finding glitches, I have to state a fact:

VERY FEW GLITCHES ARE DISCOVERED ACCIDENTALLY. ALMOST ALL OF THE GLITCHES, ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE MOST EXTREME, WERE DISCOVERED THROUGH EXTENSIVE PLANNING AND KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO MANIPULATE PHYSICS.

There is -no- other reason that players such as SM and DSS would be able to stumble onto glitches so consistently.  SM has extensive programming knowledge and knowledge of game programming in general, and as for DsS, it is more likely knowing the tendencies of what causes a glitch, niether of which is knowledge of game mechanics.

Another quote from you: "If a first time player stumbles across a zip that zips you to the goal ring and suddenly has the WR does he deserve it? That's how the glitches are discovered, and that is why they should be banned, as well as the fact as a rule, glitches cut out parts of the stage, and are easier to do than quickly moving through the cut part of the stage, decreasing the skill necessary to completely the level through artificial, and frequently random ways."

This has a few questions. Yes, I believe that if a first time player randomly stumbles onto a wall zip that skips the whole level, he deserves the record. He has the fastest timebut is he the best?. He will also, due to prompting from TSC Staff (probably accusing him of lying), reveal his glitch and allow the better players to beat his timesbut will the best player get the record?  Is there enough "game" in the glitch where skill can determine how quickly one can perform the glitch? It narrows the skill gap.. He will have accidentally discovered an important glitch, and should get credit for it (despite how unlikely this situation could ever even happen is). That's -not- how glitches are discovered, and I've stated that multiple times by now.

Second, you again made the point that it is unfair for a player to take an easier route, because it requires less skill. I would like to redirect you to my hypothetical sonic level in my first post. Do we ban the rollable wall because it is an easier, less skillful route no, because knowing the level means knowing the path.  The rollable wall is the inside lane on the track.  Just because it's shorter doesn't mean you should use it. It's there, and it's SUPPOSED to be there.  Even secrets are intended., and make everyone take the top route because it has no skill? No, because this destroys the idea of getting the fastest time. Arbitrarily forcing people to take the tougher of two options is not enforcing competition, it's enforcing imposing limits on people that don't need to be there.

And glitching through a level might take less skill, some times. I debate that this is always the case, however. Marble 3 ( http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_1/times/marble_3 ) has an extremely difficult to execute glitch, that requires 3 consecutive frames of pressing alternating directions at the -exact- time. This glitch takes -huge- amounts of skill to perform correctly, and is hardly an "Easy way out" to an uneasy level path. Those who can pull off the marble 3 glitch with such perfection as maggot and sonic62 should be heralded for their skillful playing, not chided because they skipped the normal level route.

Your concern about the morals and personal satisfaction from glitching is a real concern, and I see no reason why you should personally feel differently. That is the question of an opinion of personal achievement, and everyone has a different feeling on what achievement really is. If you feel that glitching through a level is cheating yourself, and you feel more accomplished from skillfully playing the level the normal way, I have no intention of stopping you. I have respect for your ability to stand up for your personal beliefs. However, I also feel respect for those who have the incredible ability of finding ridiculous level routes through glitches, and I don't feel that we should force our personal opinions of achievement on them, either. This website is for the fastest sonic times, and glitches give faster times.  Competition is still evident in glitches, and they do not take away from the essence of beating a level as quickly as possible. As such, TSC, and objective community, will recognize the faster times as being faster. It has no morals on personal achievement. If SM doesn't feel like he's cheating himself when he glitches a level, he shouldn't have to restrain from submitting because someone else feels cheated for him.

Man, this post came out much longer than I expected. Thanks for reading, again. I still want your definition of a glitch, which is a very important thing to know in a debate centering entirely around the legality of glitches. I attempted to rebut each of your points thoroughly, and I used evidence to back myself up. That's my two cents on the matter (and the TSC administrative two cents as well, as far as I know). Thanks, again.



Offline Groudon

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2009, 03:36:30 pm »
SM needed to figure out how to angle tails to jump into a floor panel, and push himself through the floor. That -alone- takes extreme level mastery. But that isn't the hard part. The hard part is getting out of bounds, and knowing the -exact route to take-, while OUT OF BOUNDSBut how is that knowledge of the mechanics and level design if it's not even part of the level?

Since you're hovering blind when out of bounds, you need to know the level design so you don't get lost looking for the proper entry point.  Even if someone else could find something like this, they wouldn't know what to do if they didn't know everything about the level inside and out.

Offline Parax

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2009, 04:03:14 pm »
I agree with Stef 100%. Thing is, almost EVERY SINGLE GLITCH THERE IS uses intended gameplay mechanics in unintended ways, and in that way they're no different than tricks. Taking a few su360 examples, how about snaking? When you drift, you start moving faster. Odds are this is intended. If you keep drifting back and forth down a straight path, you can keep that speed down the entire length of the path. I doubt the developers intended you to drift down paths rather than run, yet you don't do anything that's normally outside the boundaries of the game. Is this a glitch, then? If not, how does it differ from your definition of one?

Another example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdojPXW6uXM&feature=channel_page

At 2:14, I use a homing attack on an enemy to kill my speed. This is entirely intended. After that, I backtrack and jump over a speed pad - jumping, also intended - then jump around a 2D trigger to another rooftop, hop back into the 2D section, and jump past a section of the level. You may argue that this is a glitch because I go around a 2D trigger - but in the end I'm just using the intended feature of jumping in an unintended location, and the trick is the result. I don't use any mechanics that weren't completely intentionally implemented in the game, simply using them in ways unintended - which is how more or less any trick ever is performed. Likewise with supergliding, you're using the intended feature of gliding in an unintended location, and the result is the extreme height you get from it.

Also is it just me or are you replying to Stef's points with points you've already made that have already been addressed >_>

words

Stefan for admin. NOW.

QFT

Seconded (or fourthed, I guess >_>).

Offline Bilan

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2009, 04:40:49 pm »
A glitch is any abuse of ERRORS.  Obviously, you are never supposed to pass through a wall that the developers programmed to be impassable. That is a glitch.  jumping in a loop is use of game physics in an unexpected way, but it is not an error.  Sonic is SUPPOSED to go faster when going downhill, but a loop jump gives you an angle that gives sonic a substancial boost in speed.  Unintended, but not an error. As I've said before, later games actually accommodated this element.

Not wishing to join the fray as it were, but how exactly have later games accomodated loop jumping? It was a loop before, its still a loop now, no difference, unless you meant accomodated in some other way Im not seeing
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Offline Mo

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2009, 04:50:19 pm »
I don't think glitching is  that bad.Look at games like Mario Kart Wii and Sonic and the Secret Rings. The WR on Mario Kart Wii Grumble Volcano is using a glitch that lets you go on the mountain at the beginning of the stage and  manipulating the mountain to complete three laps,but it's still allowed on sites that have this game for competgition . Look at Pirate mission 7 in Secret Rings and Sand Oasis Misson 1 and 2. The world record on that stage uses the crest of wind and sub hyper speed up to clip through two gates and manipulates speedbreak to fly off a platform and ditch a section of the stage that you have to use the springs to get to. Sand Oasis Mission 1 involves a sliding glitch near the end of the stage that lets you fly over most of the platforms that you normally have to charge jump and jump dash to get past. Finally, look at Sand Oasis mission 2 this mission uses a glitch that is done by speedbreraking a certain part of a wall near the end of the stage to ditch a really steep hill. No game in the world can avoid glitches and you will eventually have to cope with people using the glitches to get a fast time.  
Shortcuts I have discovered: SSR Skeleton Dome Mission 12 Gate ditch, SA2 Battle: spring dodge.

Offline magnum12

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2009, 05:53:10 pm »
Thought for the day: DsS and SM should seriously consider careers as game testers. Knowledge of programing is best used when hunting for programing problems.
Ever know what its like to get pwned by a book? Sonic certainly does.

Offline Aitamen

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2009, 07:32:59 pm »
Stefan, wise beyond his years, wins the topic.  I hereby withdraw all previous negative statements of you, if there were any withstanding...
Year 33 — The Malkavians claim that their greatest practical joke happened during this year, when they perform a bit of graverobbing  in Jerusalem.
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2009, 09:44:12 pm »
Thought for the day: DsS and SM should seriously consider careers as game testers. Knowledge of programing is best used when hunting for programing problems.

Thought about it many times before, that's my backup plan.
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

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Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2009, 10:16:21 pm »
Stefan, wise beyond his years, wins the topic.  I hereby withdraw all previous negative statements of you, if there were any withstanding...

This coming from the same person who thinks that steroids should be allowed in professional athletic competition. 

Also RPG, accommodating in the fact that the stage won't kill you because you're going too fast (like GH1, how many games since have the scroll death issue?)

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2009, 10:56:21 pm »
my name has nothing to do with Shadow The Hedgehog

Completed Runs:
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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2009, 11:19:41 pm »
I think my last post pretty much summed up the issue.

This topic has really gone too far...

Offline Aitamen

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2009, 11:23:26 pm »
Alondite: What's it to me if a few jocks die for their dreams?
Year 33 — The Malkavians claim that their greatest practical joke happened during this year, when they perform a bit of graverobbing  in Jerusalem.
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Offline F-Man

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2009, 05:44:35 am »
Ok guys, here's a line of code that can break quotes, in order to make more than one and have your response outside of the box rather than in it:

Code: [Select]
[/quote]
Thereafter, you can open up a quote box again by copying the original quote opening code from the beginning of the text box you use to write your post.

Thank you.

Offline Bilan

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2009, 06:20:26 am »
Alondite I am not so sure that they stopped using fixed camera levels purely because in 1992 someone jumped in the GH1 loop and went flying down the S tube but that could just be me
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Offline MK

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2009, 11:26:41 am »
"Dr. Robotnik has created many diabolical traps which take advantage of Sonic's ultra-fast speed. Watch out for traps that Sonic cannot escape. If you fall into the wrong trap, you might have to reset the game (by pressing the RESET button) and start again at the beginning of the Zone you were last in. When Sonic is flashing (after being hit) don't let him travel too quickly."
--Sonic 3 manual, page 27

Going thru walls was totally intended.
Emeralds:

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2009, 01:57:55 pm »
Alondite: What's it to me if a few jocks die for their dreams?

I don't know, because it destroys the integrity of competition?  Why do those players deserve fame and wealth if they are just hopped up on steroids as opposed to being truly skilled? 

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2009, 05:28:47 pm »
PoT you know you got the jj1d record, if the guy never took the record i would have :D i got 4:23 because of a glitch i found at the beginning. :D its awsome.

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

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