About Sonic Unleashed...


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Offline Shado

About Sonic Unleashed...
« on: January 15, 2009, 09:55:36 am »
Yeah, all these "walk through walls" things and whatnot are kinda neat, but doesn't it really hamper competition? I thought speed runs were about skillfully going through the levels, not who can walk through the walls the best.

So, should rules be made to prevent glitching through areas? Or at the very least (or maybe not >_>) a separate chart for "legit runs"? Sorry if this has already been discussed before, as you can see here I'm new. Actually, I signed up just to post this. Lol.

Offline Groudon

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2009, 10:02:48 am »
Let's do the same about zipping in the early Sonic games and everything that involves glitching.

I thought speed runs were about skillfully going through the levels, not who can walk through the walls the best.

You're skillfully maneuvering out of bounds and skillfully going through the walls.

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2009, 10:11:04 am »
Let's do the same about zipping in the early Sonic games and everything that involves glitching.

I thought speed runs were about skillfully going through the levels, not who can walk through the walls the best.

You're skillfully maneuvering out of bounds and skillfully going through the walls.

So in other words, you guys decide what kind of glitching/tricks/etc. is ok and what isn't.

Offline Groudon

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2009, 10:23:57 am »
That's exactly how it's done.

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2009, 10:29:09 am »
K.

So, is there any point in competing here if you know that there's no way you'll ever devote enough of your life to Sonic to get the top records in everything?

Offline Zeupar

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 10:36:57 am »
Yes.
Fail collection: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
:o - :O - X) - :D
https://youtu.be/qpT5Md4TPJg?t=221

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 10:49:26 am »

Offline Zeupar

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 11:38:35 am »
...that you have fun and get better at Sonic games.
Fail collection: 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.
:o - :O - X) - :D
https://youtu.be/qpT5Md4TPJg?t=221

Offline DsSaster

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 01:03:27 pm »
K.

So, is there any point in competing here if you know that there's no way you'll ever devote enough of your life to Sonic to get the top records in everything?

Everyone has the potential to get top records,  but I doubt that anyone can get the top records in -everything-.  If you tell yourself that you know you can't get top records, then more than likely that's what will happen.  Also what Zeupar said. :D
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 01:09:06 pm »

If you tell yourself that you know you can't get top records, then more than likely that's what will happen. 
[/quote]

Haha i said that to myself and i have ended up getting 4 records in 2-3 days =]

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline DsSaster

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 01:11:15 pm »
That's why I said "more than likely" instead of "you won't." :(
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 01:16:31 pm »
Meh,  Im still happy with that. Also I moved to 10th in Su360 Overall ranking :D Im So annoyed that I am 400 points behind your JJ3D record and 300 behind you SS2D record. Man i cant do it!

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline finalrush7_

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 01:49:41 pm »
well hello True_Shado

My Channel: www.youtube.com/finalrush7
- Paragod is the best Sonic/Shadow SA2:B player ever.

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 01:58:04 pm »
Well hello PoT. nice Final rush record. Thats a neat level, So you going for any more records now you have #1 Su360?

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline douglas

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 02:09:08 pm »
Let's do the same about zipping in the early Sonic games and everything that involves glitching.

I thought speed runs were about skillfully going through the levels, not who can walk through the walls the best.

You're skillfully maneuvering out of bounds and skillfully going through the walls.

So in other words, you guys decide what kind of glitching/tricks/etc. is ok and what isn't.
As a rule of thumb, if there's still valid competition then a glitch isn't banned.  At the point where the wall glitch means everyone can easily get the same score, there'll be a case for banning it, but as long as there's still variation involved it's likely to stay.
This topic has now been officially won by me.  Never mind, you might do better next time!
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Offline finalrush7_

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 02:19:31 pm »
well hello STW!
thanks, final rush is like my life time project, I played it over and over again for years to get that record (which is now 2nd place).

it's like the two types of "good" gamers/whatever. either you're just a genius (Da1, SM, Paragod), or you're the hard worker (me, flying fox comes to my mind).
just take a look at Paragod's SA2 times. his Sonic/Shadow times are incredible. The only level I can keep up is Final Rush, because it's my fav level of all time and I spent lots and lots of hours on it, surely about twice/three times the amount he put into that level. And guess what, he's still got the record. I can get it back, won't be easy though.

about the #1 in SU360, I don't really deserve it. my chart is complete whereas Parax' and Da1's are about 2/3 done. Only thing worth mentioning are my ring stats. when they complete their chart, they'll have me beaten by quite a bit. Sure, I also have some stats just submitted without really trying, but it's not much...

My next goal is top15 and then top10 in SA2. oh, and keeping my adabat1 record. =D


what are your goals?

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Offline Parax

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 02:23:58 pm »
oh, you're the guy who trolled the gamefaqs thread, aren't you?

Glitches are only disallowed when they leave very little room for competition - like the egg wyvern gem trick in sonic 06, giving you a 49-seconds time every time, or the restart-after-finishing-the-mission trick in SA2 that'll always give you sub-second times (iirc). It'd be pointless to just ban glitches, plus it's not easy to draw the line at what kind of glitches we should allow and which we shouldn't.

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 02:26:42 pm »
Shado, you aren't new here by any means.
my name has nothing to do with Shadow The Hedgehog

Completed Runs:
Sonic Heroes: Team Sonic: SS
Rocket Knight Adventures: Easy (US): SS

In the Future:
Aero The Acrobat (Genesis) | More...

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 02:54:14 pm »
oh, you're the guy who trolled the gamefaqs thread, aren't you?

Trolled? I made up an obviously fake score and started doing the "camera's broken" routine, I thought the reaction from you and Roiken was actually pretty funny.

Anyway, when I said "records in everything" I meant Anything. Meaning you are very unlikely to ever get a record, especially against people who are glitching through walls and whatnot. I guess you get the thrill of competition or something.

BTW, PoT: who are you? I remember Darkspines (aka Da1AndOnlySonic) and Shadow Jacky from GameFAQs...

Offline finalrush7_

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 03:02:01 pm »
Quote
Meaning you are very unlikely to ever get a record, especially against people who are glitching through walls and whatnot.
You could go through walls and whatnot as well, couldn't you?

Quote
BTW, PoT: who are you?
My sig reveals all.

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- Paragod is the best Sonic/Shadow SA2:B player ever.

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2009, 03:10:47 pm »
Quote
Meaning you are very unlikely to ever get a record, especially against people who are glitching through walls and whatnot.
You could go through walls and whatnot as well, couldn't you?

Quote
BTW, PoT: who are you?
My sig reveals all.

Forgot to read, oops.

Anyway:theoretically yes, I could just glitch through walls too, but that's beside the point. As people have already explained though, it's considered fair game for now. So glitch or die. >_>

Offline Werey

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 03:18:20 pm »
My goals pot are to get a few More records. recently got jjd3 Scores record. Thats a totsl of 5 now in 3 days. awsome i think.. anyway i want a few more im close to on SS2D Time and score and a few others.. Ranked 7+ in Su and start doing some SA2 runs/

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 03:19:42 pm »
K.

So, is there any point in competing here if you know that there's no way you'll ever devote enough of your life to Sonic to get the top records in everything?

There's the million dollar question.  Unfortunately, not every has the time (or wants to spend the time) to find and master all the glitches in the game to even be competitive, and personally, I say that's the reason for TSC's lack of regular competitors.  The competition has degraded to a handful of players competing with each other to see who can find the game-breaking glitch.  It's the equivalent of using performance enhancing drugs in athletic competitions.  Why bother competing if you're going to have to settle for 40th (random placement) at best because you don't know, and don't have the time to find the glitches required to be competitive.  

"You're skillfully maneuvering out of bounds and skillfully going through the walls."

That's a pretty ridiculous statement IMO.  So what happens when the level is so broken, or is broken enough to where there's little room left for actually "playing" the game?  How do you "skillfully" glitch through a wall?  Everyone is using the same glitch, and with many glitches, there is no skill to doing it at all.  You practice it for awhile, and then you are magically catapulted to the forefront without having to do much at all, topping those who spent hours, days, weeks, months mastering the most effective path through the level, mastering jump height and timing, etc. before the glitch was discovered, and then somebody screws around for 15 minutes and destroys your time.  That kills competition, it doesn't promote it.  I don't play video games to watch characters glitch through a wall and reach the goal.  I'm an intensely competitive person, ask anyone that I know. However I just don't see the point in competing in Sonic, because it's reached a level where glitching takes precedence over practice and skill.  Just being the best means nothing if nobody else cares to try to beat you, which is what Sonic competition has become.  So many people just stop because they realize that after all of their work, they are still a minute off the record because they don't know some glitch, and most people just don't care find it.  Being the best in that manner just doesn't matter, it has less meaning.  In a lot of charts, the top player is likely not the best, so the charts don't actually reflect skill.  I'm willing to bet that there are superior players who don't hold records because they refuse to glitch.  In fact I'm certain that there are many technically unskilled players who hold high ranks due almost solely to glitching.  

I'm a competitor, but I believe the most skilled should be ranked at the top, and so long as glitching is allowed, that will never be the case.  Glitching doesn't add anything to competition.  It's just another route through a level that may initially require some practice, but in the end, it just cuts the level down and reduces the overall level of skill required to complete the level with a top time.  Took at Emerald Hill 1 for example, that's a level which the top time requires no glitching, and look at how many people have yet to get 19.  I for one, worked hard, and practiced for weeks to get that time. Why? It's because I knew the ONLY thing separating me from that time was skill, and mastery of the level and game mechanics, not some obscure glitch that I'd have to try to find in a video or whatever.  Either that or spend however long plodding around the level trying to break it.  My goal was 19, and the ONLY thing I had to do to get it was get better, and THAT is what competition should be.  I speak for myself here, but as long as glitching remains a part of TSC's competitive community, I won't.  I know, I'm just one person, and in the whole scheme of things, that doesn't really matter, but every member who feels like I do could be an active member of the community, and could be a top competitor, and I believe that having more competitors breeds more competition than having loose limitations on competition.  Of course this will never come to pass, because the most active members are the glitchers, and they don't want to lose their record because some other player is better when glitching is not a part of the equation.

*edit* fixed some miswordings


« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 03:39:08 pm by Alondite »

Offline Shado

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 03:24:16 pm »
K.

So, is there any point in competing here if you know that there's no way you'll ever devote enough of your life to Sonic to get the top records in everything?

There's the million dollar question.  Unfortunately, not every has the time (or wants to spend the time) to find and master all the glitches in the game to even be competitive, and personally, I say that's the reason for TSC's lack of regular competitors.  The competition has degraded to a handful of players competing with each other to see who can find the game-breaking glitch.  It's the equivalent of using performance enhancing drugs in athletic competitions.  Why bother competing if you're going to have to settle for 40th (random placement) at best because you don't know, and don't have the time to find the glitches required to be competitive.  

"You're skillfully maneuvering out of bounds and skillfully going through the walls."

That's a pretty ridiculous statement IMO.  So what happens when the level is so broken, or is broken enough to where there's little room left for actually "playing" the game?  How do you "skillfully" glitch through a wall?  Everyone is using the same glitch, and with many glitches, there is no skill to doing it at all.  You practice it for awhile, and then you are magically catapulted to the forefront without having to do much at all, topping those who spent hours, days, weeks, months mastering the most effective path through the level, mastering jump height and timing, etc. before the glitch was discovered, and then somebody screws around for 15 minutes and destroys your time.  That kills competition, it doesn't promote it.  I don't play video games to watch characters glitch through a wall and reach the goal.  I'm an intensely competitive person, ask anyone that I know. However I just don't see the point in competing in Sonic, because it's reached a level where glitching takes precedence over practice and skill.  Just being the best means nothing if nobody else cares to try to beat you, which is what Sonic competition has become.  So many people just stop because they realize that after all of their work, they are still a minute off the record because they don't know some glitch, and most people just don't care find it.  Being the best in that manner just doesn't matter, it has less meaning.  In a lot of charts, the top player is likely not the best, so the charts don't actually reflect skill.  I'm willing to bet that there are superior plays who don't hold records because they refuse to glitch.  In fact I'm certain that there are many technically unskilled players who hold high ranks due almost solely to competition.  

I'm a competitor, but I believe the most skilled should be ranked at the top, and so long as glitching is allowed, that will never be the case.  Glitching doesn't add anything to competition.  It's just another route through a level that may initially require some practice, but in the end, it just cuts the level down and reduces the overall level of skill required to complete the level with a top time.  Took at Emerald Hill 1 for example, that's a level which the top time requires no glitching, and look at how many people have yet to get 19.  I for one, worked hard, and practiced for weeks to get that time. Why? It's because I knew the ONLY separating me from that time was skill, and mastery of the level and game mechanics, not some obscure glitch that I'd have to try to find in a video or whatever.  Either that or spend however long plodding around the level trying to break it.  My goal was 19, and the ONLY thing I had to do to get it was get better, and THAT is what competition should be.  I speak for myself here, but as long as glitching remains a part of TSC's competitive community, I won't.  I know, I'm just one person, and in the whole scheme of things, that doesn't really matter, but every member who feels like I do could be an active member of the community, and could be a top competitor.  Of course this will never come to pass, because the most active members are the glitchers, and they don't want to lose their record because some other player is better when glitching is not a part of the equation.




You're the best person on this entire site.

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 04:07:24 pm »
I'm far from that, but I am willing to bet that my post will go completely ignored or It'll get bashed and ridiculed, as so many posts are.  For every good person here, there's another who just wants to tell you that you're wrong that that your ideals are ridiculous and illogical unfortunately.

Offline Stefan

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 09:18:52 pm »
I find it kind of insane that you consider disagreement to be a hamper to free speech; if it wasn't for your personal bashing of the current tsc model (I'm using bashing only because you used it, don't get upset over my word choice, it's just for parallel), your opinion wouldn't be out there. As such, it's hardly unfortunate for someone to rebut your argument; that is effectively what you are doing to the main TSC staff. This healthy disagreement is just that (healthy), and I think you should encourage thoughtful responses to your arguments.

You think that the leaderboards should be topped by those with skill; that's an understandable opinion. I agree with you entirely. Where we seem to disagree is the definition of skill. Where you think skill is an ability to play the predefined route at its best optimization, I think it is equally skillfull to play a different route (that happens to be faster) as optimizedly as possible. An important point that needs to be made is there is -always- going to be someone who has a new, better trick than someone else. Tricks shouldn't be banned. I'm sure you agree with this, Alondite. But the flat, honest truth is that people are going to spend time discovering new tricks. People get that -slightly- faster time because they spent the time searching for something different to do than the previous top strategy. It is the way competition works. It takes more than just perfect finger tapping; it takes innovation. What about shortcuts? The person who spends the time looking extensively for a single lucky spindash jump to find a shortcut -only- gets their record because they discovered something a different player didn't know about. This person might -technically- be a less skillful player than the people he or she beats with the shortcut, but that doesn't mean we should ban shortcuts. The essence of TSC is its use of innovation, combined with perfect corner cuts and jumps, to achieve unbelievable sonic play.

" Why bother competing if you're going to have to settle for 40th (random placement) at best because you don't know, and don't have the time to find the glitches required to be competitive.  "

This point has two distinct parts that I will tackle separately. First, the low place on a leaderboard as a result of ignorance.

Though I see your basic point, that logic can also be applied to many other parts of competition. Many people have to settle for fourtieth because they don't know an optimal route through a level; should optimal routes be banned? Many people settle for -way worse- than fourtieth in green hill act 1 because they don't know that jumping from the top of a hill and rolling, for some unintuitive reason, increases speed.

Take the example of a player who plays a hypothetical (but not unrealistic) 2d sonic game. This player practices this level over and over. The level progresses as a fairly straight path, until it reaches a spring next to a wall. Once taking the spring, the player is shot up to a complicated top path that is extremely hard to optimize. After the top path, the level reverts to the same fairly easy pattern until it reaches the end. One, however, if in the know of its existence, can opt to go through a breakable wall rather than take a spring. This would make the player save tons of time. Our hypothetical player, however, does not know about this breakable wall. The player spends days and days perfecting the top route of the level, getting it down to nearly tas-standard of play. The player is definitely extremely skillful. However, he does not get one of the top times on the chart. Several, more unskilled players have beaten him because they knew of the breakable wall. Do we ban the use of the breakable wall, just because a skilled player may not be knowledgable of it? Do you see the problem in using the ignorant as our basis for legality?

This problem extends beyond hidden routes. A skilled player may not know the location of a ring box, and thus get an inferior ring attack. A speedrunner might not know that 6 revs is the maximum spindash and thus waste time by over-spindashing. Competition -is- the combination of knowing more, and executing better. That is effectively a definition.

What makes it worse to find a glitch than an equally difficult to find shortcut that doesn't glitch the level?

The second part of that argument, or the concept that the leaderboards should be dominated by the skilled, not those with time to find glitches:

High level competition -requires- time. It is a silly idea to suggest that the charts shouldn't be dominated by those who invest time. You even agree that is silly. As I quote directly from you,  " I for one, worked hard, and practiced for weeks to get that time. " You are proud to be atop the eh1 charts, and believe you deserve it because you invested weeks into that level. I am curious why you think investing weeks in the discovery of how to do a perfect jump is better than investing weeks in discovering how to bypass a certain area of the level. Your idea that a "skillfull" player deserves to be higher in a chart if he doesn't have the time to find a glitch is -bogus-. Not only did that skillfull player acquire his skill from time spent and time alone (if you disagree with me on this, I would like to see evidence of someone who is good with no practice), but he should have to invest time to get a record too. Even still, a skillfull player should have to learn the niches of a level, not just get a free pass to the top because he can spindash the fastest. There's a reason we have individual level competitions; we measure people on their mastery of individual levels, not sonic's controls as a whole.

You stated that it is ridiculous to say "one must skillfully get out of bounds and skillfully navigate", and argue that competitive value is destroyed when one glitches. I present to you the following evidence from sa2, showing that levels even take extreme skill and optimization when glitched:

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/aquatic_mine/mission_5 (glitch times range by 25 seconds)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cannons_core/mission_1 (with two glitches that permanently stop time, and an oob shortcut as knuckles, this level is glitched beyond belief. Times that are confirmed to use glitches range from 1:15 to 3:09, with likely glitch times well past that)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cosmic_wall/mission_1 (this one has an oob, long level skip. goes to 37 second range)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/dry_lagoon/mission_3 (the record is 12 seconds, and the glitch range is 6 seconds. That is a huge range for such a short level. Also, the record was hotly competed over (using fastest times to reach a wall, and best manipulation out of bounds) for a very long time)

There is -no way- that glitches destroyed the competition on those levels. The competitive value of some (see cc1 and dl3) skyrocketed with the glitches.

You also say, " It's just another route through a level that may initially require some practice, but in the end, it just cuts the level down and reduces the overall level of skill required to complete the level with a top time."

You say that finding a shorter route through a level reduces the level of skill required, and people shouldn't be given a record just because they took a faster route?

By that logic, should someone who -intentionally- takes a slower, non-glitch route through a level beat someone who takes a shorter route, because the person who took the slower route had more to do and thus more skill was required? That's a ridiculous thing to do, and the same applies for new routes discovered through glitches.

Even if one was to decide banning glitches was an acceptable way to deal with the problem, the trouble comes in defining a "glitch". What is a glitch? Is it an unintended consequence of an oversight in game mechanics? Would this make super-bounce glides by knuckles glitches? Should they be banned? The technique is harmless; bounce on an enemy, and glide, and you get super height for super shortcuts. But if someone doesn't know the technique (which is certainly a programming oversight), they are at a disadvantage. How about spindash jumps? I don't think the game producers of Sonic Adventure 2 intended that we take super shortcuts by spindashing, then jumping. In fact, I'm sure of it. Why else would they remove the spindash jump from later games?

Going back to GH1, how about the loopjumping mechanic. It clearly wasn't intended; if the programmers intended to reach super speed through jumping off the top of a loop, players wouldn't die at the bottom of gh1 after performing the tehcnique. Should this strategy be banned as well?

Would glitches only be about out of bounds glitches? What about glitches that push you through a wall, but stay in bounds? Sonic 3 and Knuckles zips -certainly- require skill, there's a reason only the s3&k elite can pull them off. But since they are glitches most are unaware of, they are considered unfair by your standards.

Another point I'd like to bring up is people aren't -required- to stay uninformed on major walk through walls glitches. Your example of a player failing to compete well because of ignorance can be circumvented through videos. Almost every major glitch in the big games has been caught on video. As such, it is extremely easy to educate the new players (especially skilled ones) and give them the resources to perform the glitch themselves. They might still object on moral grounds; I acknowledge that's what you're doing. Your entire problem of players not doing well because of lack of knowledge ceases to exist, however. What we have left are those who refuse to glitch because they feel unnatural.

That is acceptable! We don't require you use glitches, and we whole-heartedly accept the more "natural" submissions that use everything except programming errors to achieve their times (though the lack of a wall preventing a super shortcut could be seen as a programming oversight, but I digress). Feel free to submit your glitchless times, and feel free to be prideful in your ability to do well without the aid of glitches.

At TSC, however, we rank players on their ability to finish a level with the highest score, rings, or time. And if that takes a clever use of a glitch (that still boils down to skill, pretty much always), then we will accept the submission. Glitches -still- contain competitive value, and are hardly any more harmful than any other advantage a more informed player has over an uninformed one.

I don't plan to change your opinion on glitches. I intend to back up TSC's position on allowing glitches in times and answering questions you posed as to why they are allowed up. Hopefully you see my response as respectful and intelligent, but I guess I can't really help if you see it as persecution and bashing on your values. I don't want to ridicule you, just give a thoughtful response. Thanks for reading!



« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 09:26:51 pm by Stefan »

Offline Ring Rush

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 09:26:07 pm »
Reposting because apparently some people haven't seen (although this was a response to someone talking about why glitchs should be banned because they wreck fun, some arguments still apply):

"Its pretty much restating what has been said, but TSC is about getting from start to finish as fast as possible. Note that this does not include what is the "fun" strategy or the "correct" strategy. As long as the strategy doesn't create a new starting point (CC1, R101-2, or various S3 levels), it should be valid.

Saying glitchs make competition worse is not a proven fact. Some people may dislike glitchs, as shown here. But I know, personally, I enjoy glitching (and I'm fairly sure people like SadisticMystic would say the same). It's fun creating routes that the designers never dreamed of in order to slowly increase your time. It's fun to know tricks like superbouncing or spindash jumps and trying to figure out where to best use them to cut off chunks of the course. It's exciting to finally get through that wall and have a chance and setting an amazing new personal record. I'd say glitchs are one of the main reasons I do compete here: they just add so much depth to competition and allow the unimaginable to become possible.

Time attacking is not and has never been about taking the "right" path through the course. Even in the days when time attacking was just in racing games, people would cut corners or find other tricks to improve their times. What makes sonic different? For us, cutting corners may be zipping through a wall or hover out of bounds. Simply put, if we want to stay the authority on sonic competition, we have to continue to allow glitchs."
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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 09:45:31 pm »
Shado u r n idiot! If the glitch is possible that means it's OKAY as long as there is still competition! (Sorry 4 calling u names)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 09:54:20 pm by OldManJenkins »

Offline Alondite

Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2009, 12:21:34 am »
I find it kind of insane that you consider disagreement to be a hamper to free speech; if it wasn't for your personal bashing of the current tsc model (I'm using bashing only because you used it, don't get upset over my word choice, it's just for parallel), your opinion wouldn't be out there. As such, it's hardly unfortunate for someone to rebut your argument; that is effectively what you are doing to the main TSC staff. This healthy disagreement is just that (healthy), and I think you should encourage thoughtful responses to your arguments.

You think that the leaderboards should be topped by those with skill; that's an understandable opinion. I agree with you entirely. Where we seem to disagree is the definition of skill. Where you think skill is an ability to play the predefined route at its best optimization, I think it is equally skillfull to play a different route (that happens to be faster) as optimizedly as possible. An important point that needs to be made is there is -always- going to be someone who has a new, better trick than someone else. Tricks shouldn't be banned. I'm sure you agree with this, Alondite. But the flat, honest truth is that people are going to spend time discovering new tricks. People get that -slightly- faster time because they spent the time searching for something different to do than the previous top strategy. It is the way competition works. It takes more than just perfect finger tapping; it takes innovation. What about shortcuts? The person who spends the time looking extensively for a single lucky spindash jump to find a shortcut -only- gets their record because they discovered something a different player didn't know about. This person might -technically- be a less skillful player than the people he or she beats with the shortcut, but that doesn't mean we should ban shortcuts. The essence of TSC is its use of innovation, combined with perfect corner cuts and jumps, to achieve unbelievable sonic play.

There is a difference between a trick and a glitch.  Loops jump, spindash jump, Knux's super-bounce glide...those are tricks and should obviously be allowed.

" Why bother competing if you're going to have to settle for 40th (random placement) at best because you don't know, and don't have the time to find the glitches required to be competitive.  "

This point has two distinct parts that I will tackle separately. First, the low place on a leaderboard as a result of ignorance.

Though I see your basic point, that logic can also be applied to many other parts of competition. Many people have to settle for fourtieth because they don't know an optimal route through a level; should optimal routes be banned? Many people settle for -way worse- than fourtieth in green hill act 1 because they don't know that jumping from the top of a hill and rolling, for some unintuitive reason, increases speed.

But that is a simple game mechanic, not a glitch.  Things that use momentum and slope to increase your speed or jump distance is physics, intended, programmed into the game, they even exist in reality.  Not knowing them is not mastery of the game mechanics.

Take the example of a player who plays a hypothetical (but not unrealistic) 2d sonic game. This player practices this level over and over. The level progresses as a fairly straight path, until it reaches a spring next to a wall. Once taking the spring, the player is shot up to a complicated top path that is extremely hard to optimize. After the top path, the level reverts to the same fairly easy pattern until it reaches the end. One, however, if in the know of its existence, can opt to go through a breakable wall rather than take a spring. This would make the player save tons of time. Our hypothetical player, however, does not know about this breakable wall. The player spends days and days perfecting the top route of the level, getting it down to nearly tas-standard of play. The player is definitely extremely skillful. However, he does not get one of the top times on the chart. Several, more unskilled players have beaten him because they knew of the breakable wall. Do we ban the use of the breakable wall, just because a skilled player may not be knowledgable of it? Do you see the problem in using the ignorant as our basis for legality?

The problem with that, is that hidden routes are NEVER as obscure as glitches, and are never random.  That's like a track runner never moving to the inside lane in a 3200m.  Maybe he can run a 9:00 3200 in the outside lane, but should he just because he can? The inside lane is allowed, so he should run on the inside lane because it's the fastest.  Maybe he has a unique stride or breathing pattern that nobody else knows which give him an edge.  That would be the equivalent of a jump or a roll or some other trick in a Sonic game.  Glitching would be the equivalent of cutting through the midfield.  Sure, you can let everyone cut through the midfield, but if you let them cut, how much? Just half? Or do they keep cutting until they are running circles around the finish line, which bridges the endurance (skill) gap.  If you're running 10m circles that someone who can only run a 15:00 is going to be able to run with someone who could run a 9:00, eliminating all the work put in by that 9:00 runner.  Knowledge is a part of competition, but finding a breakable wall is nowhere near as hard as finding a glitch.  Credit can be given to those that find glitches...congrats on screwing around and breaking the game, but those glitches are going to remain undiscovered by most players who just play through the level as fast as possible.

This problem extends beyond hidden routes. A skilled player may not know the location of a ring box, and thus get an inferior ring attack. A speedrunner might not know that 6 revs is the maximum spindash and thus waste time by over-spindashing. Competition -is- the combination of knowing more, and executing better. That is effectively a definition.

Again, skill is mastery of the game and it's mechanics. Location of a ring box falls into that. 6 revs is something that could could be learned just by trying to go faster.  Less time spindashing, but still get full speed.  It's common sense, considering that sitting there SDing isn't going to make you go faster.

What makes it worse to find a glitch than an equally difficult to find shortcut that doesn't glitch the level?

Shortcuts that don't pass through "impassable" walls don't classify as glitches.  The shortcut in CP1 (maybe CP2) I believe is such a shortcut.  It utilizes the momentum and angle from a jump to jump up to a later part of the stage.  Studying level maps or knowing level layouts can lead to the discovery of such shortcuts, and TSC provides those maps.

The second part of that argument, or the concept that the leaderboards should be dominated by the skilled, not those with time to find glitches:

High level competition -requires- time. It is a silly idea to suggest that the charts shouldn't be dominated by those who invest time. You even agree that is silly. As I quote directly from you,  " I for one, worked hard, and practiced for weeks to get that time. " You are proud to be atop the eh1 charts, and believe you deserve it because you invested weeks into that level. I am curious why you think investing weeks in the discovery of how to do a perfect jump is better than investing weeks in discovering how to bypass a certain area of the level. Your idea that a "skillfull" player deserves to be higher in a chart if he doesn't have the time to find a glitch is -bogus-. Not only did that skillfull player acquire his skill from time spent and time alone (if you disagree with me on this, I would like to see evidence of someone who is good with no practice), but he should have to invest time to get a record too. Even still, a skillfull player should have to learn the niches of a level, not just get a free pass to the top because he can spindash the fastest. There's a reason we have individual level competitions; we measure people on their mastery of individual levels, not sonic's controls as a whole.

I know it requires time, I'm not saying it shouldn't. I don't think though, that knowing a glitch counts a knowledge and skill of a game.  If you take someone who has a top time due to a glitch, and make them run the level on the fastest known non-glitch route.  There's a good chance they won't be able to compete at the top level, because they just aren't as good.  Route planning and speed tricks can be done by playing the game and studying maps, but glitches can only be found by chance in most cases.  If a first time player stumbles across a zip that zips you to the goal ring and suddenly has the WR does he deserve it? That's how the glitches are discovered, and that is why they should be banned, as well as the fact as a rule, glitches cut out parts of the stage, and are easier to do than quickly moving through the cut part of the stage, decreasing the skill necessary to completely the level through artificial, and frequently random ways.

You stated that it is ridiculous to say "one must skillfully get out of bounds and skillfully navigate", and argue that competitive value is destroyed when one glitches. I present to you the following evidence from sa2, showing that levels even take extreme skill and optimization when glitched:

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/aquatic_mine/mission_5 (glitch times range by 25 seconds)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cannons_core/mission_1 (with two glitches that permanently stop time, and an oob shortcut as knuckles, this level is glitched beyond belief. Times that are confirmed to use glitches range from 1:15 to 3:09, with likely glitch times well past that)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/cosmic_wall/mission_1 (this one has an oob, long level skip. goes to 37 second range)
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/dry_lagoon/mission_3 (the record is 12 seconds, and the glitch range is 6 seconds. That is a huge range for such a short level. Also, the record was hotly competed over (using fastest times to reach a wall, and best manipulation out of bounds) for a very long time)

There is -no way- that glitches destroyed the competition on those levels. The competitive value of some (see cc1 and dl3) skyrocketed with the glitches.

You also say, " It's just another route through a level that may initially require some practice, but in the end, it just cuts the level down and reduces the overall level of skill required to complete the level with a top time."

You say that finding a shorter route through a level reduces the level of skill required, and people shouldn't be given a record just because they took a faster route?

However glitches are discovered through mere chance, or by having programming knowledge and/or knowing how to abuse programming errors.  Shortcuts are found through studying stages and mastery of game mechanics.

By that logic, should someone who -intentionally- takes a slower, non-glitch route through a level beat someone who takes a shorter route, because the person who took the slower route had more to do and thus more skill was required? That's a ridiculous thing to do, and the same applies for new routes discovered through glitches.

Well, let's look at this from a different view.  Personally, I get absolutely no satisfaction from glitching for a good time, no sense of accomplishment.  Is the goal of competition simply to be the fastest (strongest etc...) by any means necessary, or is it to get satisfaction from your accomplishments?  Let's take a hypothetical level.  You practice this level for months, and then you can finally break than 1:00 barrier and take the record.  There is a lot of satisfaction for your hard work to be paid off, but then a week later a glitch is discovered that makes the level beatable in 20 seconds.  Now there is the moral decision.  You, the player to first break the barrier was the best at playing the level without glitching, and if you choose to glitch, you could have the record again because of your knowledge and mastery of the level and the game, because you are the best at said level, but what if you don't want to?  The potential best time for that level may not be achieved based simply on a moral decision.  And what if you do decide to glitch?  Say you do and you beat the level in 16 seconds, easily placing you at #1, do you think there's the same satisfaction as you gt from mastering all the intricacies of the level?  Speaking personally, no, it's not as satisfying.  In fact, I actually feel worse, ashamed even.

Even if one was to decide banning glitches was an acceptable way to deal with the problem, the trouble comes in defining a "glitch". What is a glitch? Is it an unintended consequence of an oversight in game mechanics? Would this make super-bounce glides by knuckles glitches? Should they be banned? The technique is harmless; bounce on an enemy, and glide, and you get super height for super shortcuts. But if someone doesn't know the technique (which is certainly a programming oversight), they are at a disadvantage. How about spindash jumps? I don't think the game producers of Sonic Adventure 2 intended that we take super shortcuts by spindashing, then jumping. In fact, I'm sure of it. Why else would they remove the spindash jump from later games?

Going back to GH1, how about the loopjumping mechanic. It clearly wasn't intended; if the programmers intended to reach super speed through jumping off the top of a loop, players wouldn't die at the bottom of gh1 after performing the tehcnique. Should this strategy be banned as well?

Loop-jumping is a trick.  It's a well-timed jump that takes advantage of how the game is intentionally programmed to use physics for an increase in speed.  If it were a glitch, it would have been removed from future games, but it still exists, the games were made to accommodate this element (like the removal of scroll deaths) because it just happened to be something that was possible through the games mechanics.  Using the momentum from a SD to jump farther is not a glitch, but idevelopers likely saw ways that this could break their levels in ways that would result in walking through walls and other ways, thus limiting the design.  Look at Metroid Prime 2.  In an attempt to do away with sequence-breaking, the entire design of the game was changed.  Items came from bosses, which required the previous boss's item to beat in a lot of cases, and the overall design of the game suffered.  The removal of the spindash jump was likely a precaution taken by ST to prevent such a case.  Having to build levels in such a way where they can't be broken by SD jumping limits the design potential, and it's more difficult that just removing SDjumping altogether.

Would glitches only be about out of bounds glitches? What about glitches that push you through a wall, but stay in bounds? Sonic 3 and Knuckles zips -certainly- require skill, there's a reason only the s3&k elite can pull them off. But since they are glitches most are unaware of, they are considered unfair by your standards.

Another point I'd like to bring up is people aren't -required- to stay uninformed on major walk through walls glitches. Your example of a player failing to compete well because of ignorance can be circumvented through videos. Almost every major glitch in the big games has been caught on video. As such, it is extremely easy to educate the new players (especially skilled ones) and give them the resources to perform the glitch themselves. They might still object on moral grounds; I acknowledge that's what you're doing. Your entire problem of players not doing well because of lack of knowledge ceases to exist, however. What we have left are those who refuse to glitch because they feel unnatural.

But maybe those people don't WANT to glitch, for personal reason.  Maybe they are the best at a level, and could easily take the record if they choose to glitch, but choose to not glitch.  In that way, the charts on not indicative of who is really the best.

That is acceptable! We don't require you use glitches, and we whole-heartedly accept the more "natural" submissions that use everything except programming errors to achieve their times (though the lack of a wall preventing a super shortcut could be seen as a programming oversight, but I digress). Feel free to submit your glitchless times, and feel free to be prideful in your ability to do well without the aid of glitches.

At TSC, however, we rank players on their ability to finish a level with the highest score, rings, or time. And if that takes a clever use of a glitch (that still boils down to skill, pretty much always), then we will accept the submission. Glitches -still- contain competitive value, and are hardly any more harmful than any other advantage a more informed player has over an uninformed one.

I don't plan to change your opinion on glitches. I intend to back up TSC's position on allowing glitches in times and answering questions you posed as to why they are allowed up. Hopefully you see my response as respectful and intelligent, but I guess I can't really help if you see it as persecution and bashing on your values. I don't want to ridicule you, just give a thoughtful response. Thanks for reading!

Well, I've read and responded to much of what you said.  Thanks for responding!






« Last Edit: January 16, 2009, 11:09:02 am by Alondite »

Offline magnum12

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Re: About Sonic Unleashed...
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2009, 01:55:32 am »
I'd say that I agree with Alondite on this. My opinion is based on the "would this be legal in a real life race?", "developer's definitions", and "sense of self-improvement" way of thinking. Note that this ONLY applies to obvious glitches.

Taking the race track analogy, imagine a race track. This track has shortcuts which are obsure, hard to find, or hard to use but are legitimately part of the design of the track. Understanding of mechanics and strategies is like those shortcuts. A glitch is like the equivilant of going outside the boundaries of the track to get a faster time, which in the traditional rules of a real life race (whether it be by foot, boat, car, or whatever) would be considered cheating.

Although it is an odd example to use in this debate, I must use the stance of developers on the use of glitches in competition. In most multiplayer games I'm aware of (stuff by Blizzard, Bungie, etc) developers typically consider the use of glitches in a competitive environment to be cheating. I know Sonic games are single player, but wouldn't the addition of online leaderboards be technically adding a pseudo-multiplayer competitive element to the game? Under this logic, choosing not to use glitches would be the best way to honor the wishes and competitive definitions of the developers.

Lastly, my third reason for disliking glitches is a bit personal. I get no sense of accomplishment from it. When using stuff like the Canon's core time freeze glitch, Ice Cap time freeze glitch, and the TBG (during my TBG rampage which caused it to FINALLY get banned) I didn't feel any joy as a result of the new improved time. I felt that my new record was unclean. The sense of challenge and the thrill of self improvement were missing, replaced with a soul less new time. (When I was more active in competition, I thought of making faster times as like a piece of art and a challenge to push my skills to their limits.)
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