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Where are we, where are we going?


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Offline yse

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Where are we, where are we going?
« on: December 20, 2007, 07:43:58 am »
About six months ago there was a pretty serious discussion about the current state of TSC. It was generally agreed that TSC was in decline for a number of reasons, but it was similarly agreed that the decline was not terminal.

After six months, though, seems as good a time as any to review what's happened since then. It came up in IRC, and I made my views known there, and will do so again here. So here we go, a summary as best I can remember:

1. Tournaments got underway.
Starting out as an experiment to determine a format, I started a tournament and Thorn followed suit. I'm not sure this was the best idea, to have two tournaments running concurrently, but at the same time I could never have envisaged Thorn's tournament running for over three months. In terms of our stated objectives, however, it certainly did nothing to bring in new members, and it didn't really prove much we didn't already know.

2. Gerbil took a lot of control over coding aspects of the site.
Since this subtle transfer of power, a lot more has got done on TSC. This is not a slam at Rolken (who of course has a hot wife and therefore more important things to attend to more often than not), and indeed Gerbil's work has created its fair share of downtime, but on the whole getting things done both on-the-fly and in a reasonable time frame has been an improvement.

3. New members have remained steady.
While this seems okay on the surface, it must be said that the proportion of new members who have no intention but to cheat the system seems higher than usual. Or maybe I'm just taking into account that SS94 has registered no less than ten (yes, ten!) accounts. I've stayed a bit detached from this as I have returned to competing, but SM seems to have deleted more stuff than usual.

4. Activity is declining.
If you looked through New Stats, you wouldn't pick this, but that can be attributed in large part to Thorn, who has had the whole site in uproar against DsS for the last week. And it worked, activity is twice usual this week. Maybe I should make topics like that.

However, the prevailing trend is definitely down, and nobody I've talked to about it has any ideas about how to reverse this, without resorting to drawing in large quantities of the "undesirables" (you know the kind of people I'm talking about).

5. Sonic games still suck.
Most accentuated by the fact that Rivals 2 came out last month, and nobody seems to acknowledge it or else forget that it exists. (Which, on recent form, is probably the sensible course of action.) This is a key contributing factor to drawing in more of the "undesirables" spoken of earlier, because it's hard to find an intelligent person who can stand the drivel that Sega's churning out these days.

And I haven't even started on the largest problem, at least for me: the place is simply no fun to be around any more.

I do not deny that I have met some pretty amazing people through this site. I need not name them because they know who they are. (I will, however, put genus out of his misery by suggesting that he is not one of them.)

But for every witty remark or cool personality I come across, there are three of cynicism, mistreatment of newbies, arrogance, ignorance, or just plain annoyance. It is the kind of atmosphere that is self-destructive, and stands in the way of our goals.

I have always said that our diversity makes our community great, and I will stand by that, with one caveat: a certain degree of intelligence and common sense. That was what I loved about TSC... and that part of it seems to have steadily drained away.

I don't know what else to say. There's not really much else, I suppose.

<3 Thorn.

Offline P.P.A.

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2007, 07:54:42 am »
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2007, 08:08:14 am »
HEY SONIC RUSH ADVENTURE DOESNT SUCK :(

also this is deep stuff, mike. Perhaps in order to bring in new intelligent members, we need to attack and destroy prolific idiots elsewhere so that intelligent members can come out of hiding and flock to our cause.

Offline Stardust Speedman

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2007, 09:13:30 am »
As long as every of you narrow minded pesimists continue to say that Sonic games suck, of course, those who think different don't want to be around you anymore. That's exacly one reason why many users of Sonic forums (not only here) just leave those forums and why not many new people join them. You make them sick.

Even if you guys love it so much to bash down Sonic 06 because it had glitches, long loading times and bla, and even if you count Sonic Riders as a bad game for whatever reason, and even if you hate Shadow the Hedgehog for its gunplay and bla, and even if you hate Sonic Heroes for various reasons, and even if the Sonic Advance games wheren't your type, and even if you ignore the existance of Sonic Battle and Sonic Pinball Party, because they are good, but not normal Sonic games, the awesomeness of the two Sonic Rush games is undeniable. Also, Sonic and the Secret Rings is a game that not everybody can understand, but has very high quality, is very original, and once you really get into it, waaaaay awesome. But some people just seem to love to ignore these, because they love to hate Sonic these days. You, for example, instead of naming Sonic Rush Adventure, name Sonic Rivals 2, a game which is not even made by Sonic Team, is a racing game instead of a normal 2D Sonic game, is a PSP game, and hence noone really cared about it in the first place, when the first one came out last year. You deliberately pick up the unsuccessful games and totally forget about the successful ones and talk as if in the last few years all Sonic games have been extremely bad. Not to mention that all the recent games that have been put down so much have a lot of beautiful things about them, but not many people are able to realize that.

If you guys (just to make it clear, I haven't been directly speaking about Yse all the time, but all the people who have nothing better to do than say how much Sonic sucks) where really Sonic fans, you hadn't been using every opportunity to bruit to the world how much Sonic and Sonic Team and Sega suck these days, ignoring all their good games. If Sonic is dead to you, please just leave Sonic alone and don't frustrate other people so much who still love playing Sonic games. You are not doing any good to anyone.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2007, 11:01:51 am by Stardust Speedman »
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2007, 09:18:58 am »
Okay, I've seen Stardust's kind before. And they annoy me.

Look, just because you're a "Sonic fan" doesn't mean always look at everything "positive" about the games and ignore everything else. True fans of something should point out errors in games.

And now, someone finish this post for me. I'm no good at long messages.
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Offline yse

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2007, 09:29:01 am »
Damnit how did I know this was going to happen.

I want this topic to have a clear focus, and someone takes a minor point and makes a big fuss about it.

I'm all for you presenting your opinion on the Sonic games, but it's not really relevant in this topic.

(Incidentally, what Sondow said is 100% true)

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Offline SuperSonic94

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2007, 09:39:03 am »
9 or 10?, Doesnt matter, how I delete??, that matter, I delete like 8 or 9..
Good bye for now Sonic =(

Offline Stardust Speedman

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2007, 09:39:44 am »
OK, I am sorry to guide the topic to the wrong way. I could answer Pidgey something, but I won't, since this is apparently not the place to talk about such things.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2007, 10:38:49 am »
Funny how mike summarized a lot of my feelings about TSC and how I've noticed it's changes in development recently (for the worse).

Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot.
Ignorance and bashing is also common here and, no, it is not bliss. FAR from it.

I won't touch on the Sonic games being suckish comment as everyone else will, I imagine. But I'm having second thoughts about a lot of things.

Riders 2 competition is the only thing I'm looking forward to here as I'm almost certain noone has the decency or the willingness to make my sub-site go up...
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Offline F-Man

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2007, 12:12:41 pm »
About the place not being fun anymore, I only agree about the annoyance part. That probably means I'm arrogant though. :D (I seem to be it sometimes)

Otherwise the place is still very cool, if you just try to forget the people who can't say anything other than Gerbil fads, which is a lot of people who seem to be or think they're respected, sadly.

It's cool because it's what it has always been, but more. There are more games to compete in (and screw anyone thinking we still shouldn't aim for completion, bring on that Rivals 2, and Shuffle too) and when you're into it it's certainly better than anything else in life.

I can't wait to be into it again.

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2007, 12:36:29 pm »
I'm just hear to read the comments.

Its just that even though I'm a vet, me being gone for that longest of time I haven't even gotten to know what this "time of awesome" that TSC was except for its earliest days before everyone chatted.  Its just the fact that I missed out on a lot that I cant really comment or say how things have been going downhill as others seem to notice.  I've been oblivious to this site's shortcomings, but certain events haven't bothered me as much as admins point out.  This isn't the first time this subject has been brought up, and feels it's going somewhere this time instead of just an idea/problem for the time being.  For the most part and while reading the discussions, I mainly felt that some people were overreacting to certain situations, but maybe they aren't and its just me being ignorant (which that's the case :/). 
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Offline maggot

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2007, 02:49:36 pm »
What we have here at Sonic Center is a neat idea that created a really great site. A site like that claims attention, and that quality brings a lot of people to here. Among them, interesting guys who want to keep sonic games' competition in a high level. But among them, we will also have those newbies that only want to annoy everyone else. Big and competent sites like this one will always be annoyed by those types, there's no other way, but we can't give up offering a good competition (and everything else) just because of them.

I can't describe my happiness when I found The Sonic Center four years ago. It was like my wish of a competition site has become true. I know that I won't help much with this, but I thought that was a good occasion to say what I think about this place.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2007, 03:36:52 pm »
It's cool because it's what it has always been, but more. There are more games to compete in (and screw anyone thinking we still shouldn't aim for completion, bring on that Rivals 2, and Shuffle too) and when you're into it it's certainly better than anything else in life.

I can't wait to be into it again.

FINALLY! A non-critical comment on Shuffle. TY, F-Man.
But seriously, ALL THE PROPOSALS we suggested and the ones that are STILL pending SHOULD be added.

It's aiding in what I think of the site now... well, more of the admins anyway.

But srsly, TSC IS a great place, undoubtedly. It's the forums that bring it down.. that and competition issues. Issues aside, I'm glad I found TSC more than a year ago. I srsly hope this site doesn't go down. Whenever the account gets suspended, I start to panic. :)

Despite everything I said, TSC should not be dismissed entirely as a site that's starting to lose its appeal. Although that may be true, if it weren't for some glaring issues (example, laziness, unwillingness to compromise/turn around, criticisms, not adding stuff, etc.) people wouldn't have anything notably bad about the site.
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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2007, 04:37:13 pm »
Sonic into Dreams for TSC.
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Offline X-5

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2007, 05:25:33 pm »
Quote from: F-Man link=topic=2885.msg30561#msg30561 date=1198170761[/quote

Otherwise the place is still very cool, if you just try to forget the people who can't say anything other than Gerbil fads, which is a lot of people who seem to be or think they're respected, sadly.


thats what i have been thinking forever now but i have never been able to say it without sound super mean. you da man! also please tell me by "get into it" you mean compete again, cause it would be awesome to see the 3D god back in action, it has not been THAT long but it seems like it has.

I hope this topic is not referring to me as the "undesirable" if so, you have me completely misunderstood, probably cause of what I did during rough spots. if you are not talking about me that is cool.

I can say new games sucking is a good thing, cause then people will play more of the good and old 2D/3D games, which builds up total players and fiercer competition, instead of a new game every month with 10 players and weak records. tho that might prevent potential members cause I know how some people are they gotta play only the newest games and cannot even look at an "old" one as if they will die or something. but I doubt it would matter much if at all tho in the long run.

other than that, GS is kicking ass as a site updater, alot of bugs that I hated are being fixed finally :) among other cool new features. change of power is good, if the original power holder has no free time to make best use of his power.

Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2007, 05:30:46 pm »
change of power is good, if the original power holder has no free time to make best use of his power.


Very well said.
And don't worry Paragod, noone's targeting you. It's usually me taht gets targeted around here anyway... at the very least, it's being shifted to Darkspines but before it was sonicandamy, but speaking of which what HAPPENED to that guy?
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2007, 07:00:42 pm »
KS8, I think the less we worry about S&A the better. He doesn't do much but annoy me in #pokemonfuntalk these days anyway.
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Offline magnum12

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 12:55:12 am »
I think one of the major problems is a general morale failure. The general fan morale has plummeted A LOT after the release of S06, which might be the cause of recent cynicism. Sure SSRR is fun but flawed and SRA kicks a whole lot of ass (and the RPG will most likely pwn since Bioware's behind it), but the taste of that unfinished beta POS is still quite fresh. I personally have suffered a major loss of competitive drive/morale after playing that broken POS. To me, that game embodies much of the darker side of speed running (something I would rather do without/have no part of in addition to stuff that makes the TBG seem fair being legal), i.e. it becomes more about exploiting glitches (and I mean much more) than about skillful platforming, maneuvering, fighting (which should the primary thing). The whole thing slowly caused speed running to lost that valued fun factor that kept me coming back for more until around March when the drive all but completely disappeared. When I think about it, the comparitively small weight the "dark side" has on speed running compared to the raw skill/strategy factor is why I think ShtH is so fun at high level play.
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 12:59:13 am »
Well at least S06 is discontinued now >_>

I have nothing else to say for the time being.
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Offline eggFL

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 01:01:47 am »
what do you mean it's discontinued? :P

Offline Rick_242

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2007, 02:40:04 pm »
<Sondow> also what
<Sondow> since when was S&K an expansion pack to s3
<Sondow> wiki LIES

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2007, 03:47:05 pm »
maybe sonic team will get a fucking clue
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Offline Stefan

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2007, 04:59:29 pm »
I do think stardust has a somewhat valid point. It's far too often that people, when presented with something they don't like, provide a sort of anti cardstacking argument against it, ignoring all the positive details. Sonic Rush Adventure is a fabulous, wellplayed game that seems to show that neither sonic games nor sonic competition are entirely dead yet.


Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2007, 05:07:26 pm »
Wiiloveit

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Offline magnum12

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2007, 10:15:20 pm »
In the words of M. Bison (yes I know he's supposed to be Vega if not for the U.S. Branch of Capcom screwing things up); Yes! Yes! This is delicious! The announcement of this news just made my day.
Ever know what its like to get pwned by a book? Sonic certainly does.

Offline eggFL

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2007, 10:41:16 pm »
He means it's being discontinued.

oh I had no idea games being discontinued was reported as news. I thought games get discontinued all the time. And many game stores don't even carry anything but the most newly released games anyway.

Offline magnum12

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2007, 11:12:55 pm »
Not exactly true. With exception to bargin bin junk, many good games remain in the shelves for years. The Game Stop where I live still sells games that are several years old (though some of those are used, the point is that the store still has games that are old). This is a special case since 06 sold so poorly due to MASSIVE negative word of mouth from fans and critics (justified BTW) that selling it is a waste of time and money. Maybe this will be a lesson for Sonic Team. Actually make quality titles or go out of business. Its sad really. A good patch could have fixed most of the problems with this game, but ST proved that they could care less about the quality of the products they sell to their fans by both rushing the game and not releasing a patch as an apology for rushing out junk.
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Offline eggFL

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2007, 12:52:45 am »
well I guess, but the used games part was kind of moot since they don't count, plus Sonic06 will be available used anyway (every game ever made is readily available used)

Offline P.P.A.

Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2007, 05:35:45 am »
Maybe they're rereleasing it with less bugs and shorter loading?
Whoops, I forgot this is a Sonic Team game. My fault.

well I guess, but the used games part was kind of moot since they don't count, plus Sonic06 will be available used anyway (every game ever made is readily available used)
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Where are we, where are we going?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2007, 02:41:03 pm »
There was an INVOLVED discussion in the chat the other day which most of you missed but that is still relevant. Basically a few of us (Rolken, yoshifan, Mike as well I believe, SJ, p discussed the future of TSC, and it went PLACES. I lost the log, but retained the main points.

Basically the main Sonic games, not spinoffs like SRA, aren't very good so it's attracting an ignorant fanbase to the site. Because of this we are not gaining respectable members since nobody in their right mind would enjoy these abominations; most of our new users are either morons or under 12.

As such we need to either merge subsites with the main games and branch out to new trackables, or expand to the online games scene. The issue with the former is that most reputable series have established competitive scenes, and there are very few new franchises around, let alone good new franchises that are competition-worthy. We also run the risk of become Cyberscore Jr, overextending ourselves so the mods are uninformed about the games being tracked and mostly apathetic towards their competition developments. We're allready there, I'd say; none of the 'respected' members play Rivals, and when Rivals2 eventually goes up (it will) they really won't care. This is only going to continue as Sega churns out game after game, most of which won't be given a fair shake because of the major letdown that was Sonic 06.

If we do decide to track more games, we must be selective in what we choose to track. Quality should be a factor here; nobody wants to compete in bad games. Obviously there are a few undesirable games we track now (Rivals, Heroes, 06, Shadow, more, more, more); were we to attempt to broaden the site's focus we would need to consider more carefully what players would want to...play. Obviously we can't very well undo game additions, since someone is going to get shafted from that many rankings removed from the site and it just isn't fair for whoever competed, but in the future we must be more careful.

For the latter suggestion, we would attempt to act as a hub for people who enjoy online games, only in a more general fashion than the lobbies usually present. Think of something along the lines of, say, rankings for Toulose, Magic, AWBW, and all these other fads compounded to show who is just generally good at online games; in conjunction with rankings for single-player games, I believe this would be a first.

Every now and then traditional tournaments (player vs. player and not something like our current situation with challenges) would be held for certain ranked games; from that players would either gain or lose placing overall. Not enough to entirely shift the tides of rankings, but still with sufficient weight to boost status in that game. I imagine there would also be a matchmaking service of sorts for players looking to play in certain games. A matchmaking service not called 'the chatroom'.

Here I see many issues, though. We'll definitely be stretching ourselves thin; fads are by nature shortlived. Nobody plays, say, Pokemon anymore because they found something better, so you'll have a small pool of people interested in a fad at once, making it almost impossible for new users to get a foothold in the rankings. And even if they continue playing, there will be such a large gap from the top dogs to the newbies that most will be discouraged from even playing; after all, it would take an age to reach the top spot, as progress is so slow with your only chance to improve dependant on the schedule of others. There's also the problem of an honor code...if one person reports a false outcome, what would happen? We would side with the more respected member by default...which would definitely increase tensions between players. In the event of two unknowns we wouldn't care which would also spark conflict.

Of the two ideas I am more fond of the first; in either case I think a name change is imperative. The name 'The Sonic Center' isn't even fitting now with subsites...it will be especially irrelevant with the advent of change.

Just a few things to think about where we're going...as for where we are, I see a niche community getting bored of what it has and wanting more, which Sonic Team sadly does not seem able to supply.


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