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Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2007, 05:54:38 pm »
I don't see sonic being confirmed by sakurai, even if he's in.

Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2007, 08:14:47 pm »
Some of the recent updates for SSBB seem pretty cool, such as the Team mode in the Subspace Emissary part of the game. Playing as two characters in  the story mode looks to be interesting.
     

Offline P.P.A.

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2007, 04:50:07 am »
wtf happened to the Live Bookmark? It keeps failing to load.
THESE IMAGES CONFISCATED FOR EVIDENCE

My YouTube profile. Lots of Sonic speedruns~

Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2007, 07:53:50 am »
I don't see sonic being confirmed by sakurai, even if he's in.


i eat my words.

Offline P.P.A.

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2007, 09:30:24 am »
I eat mine too, it works again.
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Offline Crowbar

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2007, 01:47:12 pm »
Well I wasn't expecting that this morning.

Offline Waxwings

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2007, 04:12:59 pm »
Quote
Sonic the Hedgehog crashes headlong into battle!

In related news, video game forums across the Internet are exploding.

Offline eggFL

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2007, 05:40:13 pm »
Who cares about Brawl?

Mario is riding a motorcycle!!!

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26213.html

THEY STOLE MY IDEA and they did such a good job

I love the design for the motorcycle. I would pick it every time!

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2007, 07:06:27 pm »
From the videos, Sonic looks like he has some crazy juggling potential. And according to some new pictures of the character select screen, he's a starter.

In related news, apparently there's going to be a playable Brawl demo out next week for a tournament in California, so expect hands-on reports soon. The optimist in me says that they'll release this demo over Wiiconnect24, ala Metroid Prime 3. The realist (or pessimist) says there won't be anything widely available until release.


I HOPE YOU DO

Offline Groudon

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2007, 07:08:45 pm »
according to some new pictures of the character select screen, he's a starter.

That's a demo.  Sonic is a 3rd-party character, and all 3rd-party characters will need to be unlocked.

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2007, 02:41:54 pm »
Quote from: Groudon
All third party characters need to be unlocked
  [Citation Needed]

Anyways, what's the difference between Sonic's side special and down special? I really don't see any.

Oh, and in terms of recovery his Up B looks great, but I'd imagine he's a fast faller. Can someone better able to view videos confirm this?


I HOPE YOU DO

Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2007, 05:16:02 pm »
well, he's one hell of a floaty fastfaller if so. check out that di.

Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2007, 05:22:52 pm »
I am pretty surprised Sonic is confirmed for SSBB, but then again, I had a feeling he would get in. His moves look great, much better than I had expected. His speed looks pretty good to. I am looking forward to playing with him. This is so cool!
     

Offline Groudon

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2007, 06:18:54 pm »
Some more information is confirmed.

Sonic's neutral special is the homing attack, his Final Smash is Super Transformation (where he can fly around in any direction and deal massive damage to anyone he touches), Diddy's down special lays down a banana, alternate costumes make a return, and you need to deal enough damage to a Smash Ball to get its effects (instead of just grabbing it as previously thought).

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2007, 06:19:42 pm »
I'm willing to bet a nonsensical post that we'll see Tails as an assist trophy. Not that I intend on backing this up.

You have to wonder how many characters will be in the final version. We're at 21, with more secret characters in reserve. I'm doubting my initial estimate of 25.

Anyone living in California who plays the demo and describes it in detail will win official TSC cool points, to be dispensed by Mike(s).

Another thought that I'm too burnt out to string together. This is one of the few games I've been excited about in a while. Once more, no substance to follow.

What are the most hilarious matchups you can think of? Observations.

Slippy Toad should be in the game. Etc.


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Offline Crowbar

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2007, 09:58:19 am »
Some more information is confirmed.

Sonic's neutral special is the homing attack, his Final Smash is Super Transformation (where he can fly around in any direction and deal massive damage to anyone he touches), Diddy's down special lays down a banana, alternate costumes make a return, and you need to deal enough damage to a Smash Ball to get its effects (instead of just grabbing it as previously thought).

By "alternate costumes" do you mean colour-swaps (which would make sense given you say "return")? If so, are we going to have a green/purple/red etc. Sonic? Or do you mean actual different costumes, which would open up possibilities for Shadow/maybe Silver as an alt. for Sonic, or Wario's SML3 costume (which would be SO FUCKING AWESOME)?

Offline Groudon

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2007, 11:30:08 am »
Color swaps is what I meant.  Though one of Sonic's alt colors could make him look like Shadow.  It's not impossible, seeing as how one of Peach's alt colors in Melee made her look like Daisy.

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2007, 05:38:37 pm »
Any theories on what Sakurai blurred out this update? Personally I've no idea, and am curious to see what everyone else is thinking. Maybe an option to email these pictures? Or set a background somewhere in the game? I'm genuinely stumped.

And I'm still hoping for this demo to somehow make its way onto Wiiconnect24. With any luck, they'll at least give it to stores. I need a fix for my obsession. Savvy?


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Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2007, 10:46:30 pm »
Brawl is looking to be great and I just -cannot- wait. As such, partly due to my own drive, partly due to the peer pressure of genus, I'm going to speculate tiers! There's nothing more fun than speculating about a new game, pushing your opinions as fact, and then finding out you were way off. As such, I'll make a tier list of all currently confirmed characters. My tier list will be based entirely off known moves, known characteristics, and ability in melee. Not favorites. Not favorites at all.

If you don't know what a tier list is, it's a list of characters n a given game with multiple character options that ranks them in order of most competitive ability to least competitive ability. Tiers are based entirely on what the most people succeed with. They are a combination of the scarcity of skilled players of that particular character and the potential of that character. For example, Marth and Sheik may be entirely broken, moving hitboxes. Despite this, however, they don't rank as the top two characters simply because, competitvely, fox wins more. Fox has more potential, speed, and shine tactics that allow him to be the best in terms of competitive odds. This doesn't mean he's the only way to go; just that he's the most competitive character, tournament wise..

So, without further delay, the predicted Super Smash Brothers Brawl tier list.


Top


Fox - Fox has crazy speed, overpowered aerials, a ridiculous upsmash, an easily spammable projectile, and, most of all, the shine. Comboing with Fox is fluent. A good fox player will always be attacking you, and there's rarely anything you can do about it. Melee proved that. Assuming nothing, little, or not enough to majorly nerf him occurs, Fox should remain atop the tier list.

Metaknight - Melee proved that being able to quickly combo your opponent is eesential to victory. Fox, Falco, Falcon, Marth, and Sheik all win because they can -quickly- attack, continue attacking, and finish off the kill. All five further demonstrate the effect speed has on gameplay. Metaknight's sword is fast. Really fast. Watch the first trailer, and you can see how quickly that thing moves. Further more, it's a disjointed hitbox (his sword can hurt you if it hits you, but you can't hurt it). He can fly, too. That's going to add a nice feature of survivability to his speed and combo potential. Watch out.


High


Zero Suit Samus - Zamus seems to be a replacement Sheik. Really. Transformation character, skinnyish build, female, heavy martial combat, occasional projectile, the plasma whip. She seems like a fast character heavily oriented towards close combat. She seems to have a very decent recovery from close, as well. I'm not sure what she'll do if she's far away.. can her up b function without a wall to grab? If so, her recovery will most likely be way up there. I just seem to see her as very Sheik like, only with a little more options from far away, and a little less ninjaesque amazingness. EDIT: Watching gameplay vids, she seems -better- than Sheik. Look at some of the playable demo vids, and you can see how ridiculous her range is. That whip is win. pure win.

Peach - From the brokenness of the downsmash to the amazing projectile that turnips were, Peach proved to be a -unique-, capable character. Peach was the only top 5 tier in melee to not be oriented towards a fast, quick strike gameplay. She was a damage racking up, turnip abusing, downsmash raping, godly recovering, prioritized arialling, floating menace. And seeing as her turnips, the best projectile int he game, return to her, she surely hasn't taken any steps in brawl to get worse. <3 Peach.

Ike - I see a heavy Marth. Less speed, more power. Probably worse than Marth if Marth returns. No real comments besides that.

Samus - Samus seems like she should be higher, doesn't she? Impossible to knock off the stage, unbelievable recovery (bombs, grapple, up b, jump), great projectiles (I'm talking to you missles), pretty powerful moves, and some nice, laid back aerials. Unfortunately, when it comes to close combat, Samus is -really- lacking. Her aerials can't/couldn't reliably be shffled, her tilts are less than amazing, and her smashes are way too long to charge.



Middle


Sonic - Well, Sonic looks really awesome. To play as, at the least. Whether or not he's great is a different question. In terms of known moves, he seems -heavily- oriented towards the spindash. This could mean plenty of things. On one side, he can easily attack from far away; on the other, however, he may lack the close combat you need to do well in smash. We don't really know aerials or tilts at all, though,so it's not really fair to judge. One thing I -can- judge is the apparently immortal recovery Sonic possesses. First off, his DI. It's ridiculous. I can't stop commenting on it. Watch the official video. He moves horizontally with such speed/ease that his air game may be like Jigglypuff's (which, if you didn't know, is almost impossible to play against). He also as a good midair spindash for horizontal distance, and huge vertical distance on that spring. Whether or not you can survive if the spindash doesn't make it or if the spring stops horizontal movement is unknown, but sonic's recovery's looking great. I can't wait to see him in good action. That down air is also unbelievable looking. What we've seen is just intense. But maybe Sakurai just wanted it that way.

Pit - Since Sakurai touted the new aerial combat emphasis, it seems very likely that a character with (appearing) multiple jumps would have an advantage. Surely having a sword would also give you an advantage. I'm kind of torn on Pit.. I want to know his smashes. What could he do? Would he be an air only character? This tier position really goes off nothing more than the fact than he has wings and a sword.

Mario - He's balanced. It's Mario. He can use aerials, has a projectile, decent recovery, all sorts of stuff. It's Mario.

Link - It's Link. Link wasn't so great in Melee.. he was slow, heavy, and had few killing options. I'm certain Sakurai wants to resurrect the second greatest nintendo star from a lifetime of doom in Smash. He's already got a new boomerang, and he may be affected by the new "heavy invincibility" rule. That's definitely enough to bring him back to a decent level.

Ice Climbers - The first significant drop. The main reason for this is because I'm goign off the idea that the wavedash is abolished. There's no reason to believe this is true or not true, so I've just predicted wavedash will be gone. I'm not really sold either way, but eh. Anyway, the Ice Climbers are slow. Their smashes, tilts and grabs are amazing. So ground movement=poor, ground attacking=great. If you are a ground char, you need ground movement. Without wavedash, ICs are screwed. You can see this in any good IC video.

Snake - Yeah, it might be a shock to see him this low. He just looks -slow- to me. His attacks don't seem to come off quickly. This may be a poor conclusion off small amounts of video, but it's the one I made. One thing that really interests me about Snake is that strangle move. I really want to see that in action. Does it stun for a long time? Is it hard to pull off? Is it broken? Can it be broken? If that can consistently be done and well, Snake may quickly rise to top tier. He's kind of a difficult char to pin for me, since he's so different. Weapon oriented, stealth oriented, etc. Can't wait to play as him.


Low


Donkey Kong - He's probably the best heavy character if Ike ends up fluking out majorly (which is definitely a high possibility). He's pretty quick, has some very good moves, and can own in the right hands. He is another character, like Mario, that really doesn't excel in anything, but isn't horrible, either.

Pikachu - Pikachu is an example of a character with speed that doesn't do too well. Pika is very strong for a little rat, very quick, and has awesome recovery. Migh major concern with the guy is his lack of range and consistent ko attacks. His smashes are probably the best combined smashes in the game, but he can't use them often because they require he's close, where he gets beat down. Pika is a nice character though. I wish he was better.

Yoshi - Yoshi had one major flaw in melee: his up b gave him no distance. Now that it does in Brawl, Yoshi's double jump cancelling, smashes, yumalicious eggs, and just overall comboability should make him a decent character, but nothing special.

Diddy Kong - "Unfortunately, screenshots fail to truly capture the way he moves."

That line confuses me. Is he quick? Is he.. low to the ground? I want to know, man! Anyway, I see Diddy as a very quick, pikachu esque character. He's about the same size, probably quick, and probably as similar tilts and the like. His up b looks really crappy, in my opinion. If you can't reliably actually make it back, you may as well never try. :( Peanuts also seem like they would probably be less beneficial than a traditional projectile because of explosions and edible peanuts. I can't wait til someone perfects the kamikaze popgun explosion, though. x)


Bottom


Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like ivysaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three "get used", I see PT's usability severely hampered.

Zelda - She is just Zelda. Slow and unable to deal large amounts of damage, Zelda is limited to the number of toes you get in. I really hope Sakurai makes her better, but I don't see it happening. :(

Bowser - Two lines convince me Bowser shouldn't be at the bottom like in melee. The first is, "The biggest and the heaviest of fighters, Bowser has a slightly different flavor this time around!". The second, "This time, there are several moves like this among the heavy characters, so watch out!", refers to invincibility midmove. The first seems to suggest Sakurai realizes Bowser really sucked, and wants to make such a "powerful" character better. I don't see his efforts going so far considering Bowser's slow, but it's worth a try. The second line makes me smile at the fact that it's nearly a guarantee Bowser won't be unable to fight because little, puny attacks keep flinching him midmove. If he can continue attacks now, he'll at least be on a somewhat even playing field with little tiny pikachu headbutts.

Lucas - Ness sucked. He wasn't powerful, had a crap recovery, slow moves that stunned him, poor projectiles, a horrible air game, and really crappy smashes. Lucas=Ness, effectively. Lucas, therefore, should suck. Sorry man. I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Kirby - Specials are really bad, throws don't do much, he's laggy, aerials have poor range+knockback, recovery -really- sucks for a character with multiple jumps. Sakurai went way too far in nerfing him from SSB, and I haven't seen evidence of change. Again, I'm hoping, considering the Kirby games are like the third most amazing platform series ever, that Kirby gets his act together.

Wario - He is fat, therefore likely heavy with a poor jump. His two moves revealed so far are the bike and the wario waft. The problem with the bike is
a.) it seems to be of no attacking use and
b.) if it is of attacking use, the opponent can use it too. It's like giving Marth's sword the ability to be knocked out of his hand so anyone can use it. It's pointless. Who cares if you can do a 180 turn on a bike? I want a practical move! The wario waft's major problem is you need to charge it. The imminent flaw in this is, if you're using it, as intended, for recovery, you can't get very far because you need to charge to get any vertical distance. By then, it's probably too late. Second, there's still no real attack purpose for this. What are you going to do? hope someone walks over you so you can crash into them? hope someone stands around so you can blast them? It has no practical attack usage either. And based on the other Wario moves we've seen, he seems to be a poor character. It's a shame, because he's Wario, man. Oh well. Bottom of bottom tier isn't so bad.


So yeah. That's my tier list prediction. it's probably way, way off. It doesn't account for likely characters or characters I'd really like to get in, such as Megaman, Ridley, Krystal, Falco, Olimar, Dedede, Nook, Stafy, Little Mac, Balloon Fighter, Cel-Shaded Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Marth, Game and Watch, Ness, or Isaac. But it's decent, right? Feel free to pick it apart, because intelligent, critical speculation is fun. Yeah.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 11:09:05 am by Stefan »

Offline Taillow

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2007, 04:37:00 am »
Yadda yadda yadda

I'm kind of torn on Pit.. I want to know his smashes. What could he do? Would he be an air only character? This tier position really goes off nothing more than the fact than he has wings and a sword.
I'm pretty sure the bow is a pair of blades.

Yadda yadda yadda

Ice Climbers - The first significant drop. The main reason for this is because I'm goign off the idea that the wavedash is abolished. There's no reason to believe this is true or not true, so I've just predicted wavedash will be gone. I'm not really sold either way, but eh. Anyway, the Ice Climbers are slow. Their smashes, tilts and grabs are amazing. So ground movement=poor, ground attacking=great. If you are a ground char, you need ground movement. Without wavedash, ICs are screwed. You can see this in any good IC video.
I could have sworn I heard something about actually working with wavedashing on this game.  But that was some time ago, so don't quote me on that.

Yoshi - Yoshi had one major flaw in melee: his up b gave him no distance. Now that it does in melee...
I'm sure you can figure this one out.

Diddy Kong - "Unfortunately, screenshots fail to truly capture the way he moves."

That line confuses me. Is he quick? Is he.. low to the ground? I want to know, man!
I assumed it meant erratic movements.  Like Wario, but less crazy.

Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like bulbasaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three get used, I see PT's usability severely hampered.
Ivysaur

Lucas - Ness sucked. He wasn't powerful, had a crap recovery, slow moves that stunned him, poor projectiles, a horrible air game, and really crappy smashes. Lucas=Ness, effectively. Lucas, therefore, should suck. Sorry man. I'm hoping I'm wrong.
I don't think Lucas used yoyos in Mother 3.  Then again, I'm going off what I heard.  Either way, I wouldn't compare them yet.  Then again, I wouldn't assume a lot of stuff.

Wario - He is fat, therefore likely heavy with a poor jump. His two moves revealed so far are the bike and the wario waft. The problem with the bike is
a.) it seems to be of no attacking use and
b.) if it is of attacking use, the opponent can use it too. It's like giving Marth's sword the ability to be knocked out of his hand so anyone can use it. It's pointless. Who cares if you can do a 180 turn on a bike? I want a practical move! The wario waft's major problem is you need to charge it. The imminent flaw in this is, if you're using it, as intended, for recovery, you can't get very far because you need to charge to get any vertical distance. By then, it's probably too late. Second, there's still no real attack purpose for this. What are you going to do? hope someone walks over you so you can crash into them? hope someone stands around so you can blast them? It has no practical attack usage either. And based on the other Wario moves we've seen, he seems to be a poor character. It's a shame, because he's Wario, man. Oh well. Bottom of bottom tier isn't so bad.
I was under the impression that the charge was time based, not hold based or samus/DK equivelant.  You know, after you use it, you just have to pass the time not using it, even when attacking.

Epilogue and long list, A.K.A. yadda yadda yadda
NO at Cel-shaded Link.  I think Little Mac was found as an AT by one of the demoplayers.  You deserve points for Isaac (I've been stating this one for a bit).  And finally, Ganondorf MUST have his ENERGY PING PONG BALL ATTACK!  It'd be more of a one-on-one thing, unless someone gets caught in the crossfire or something.  If only that were true...
Hi

Offline Groudon

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2007, 08:03:38 am »
Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like ivysaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three get used, I see PT's usability severely hampered.

Hello, stamina.  Seems you overlooked that detail.

Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2007, 09:12:47 am »
Ok yeah, so Ivysaur* and Brawl* and various other mistypes.

Re-reading about wario waft, it seems like a you can use it, but then, if you don't wait long enough, it won't charge back up. So I was wrong on that part, yes. However, Wario waft still seems to have little use because, if he gets edgeguarded, he can't make it back up. That little poot won't be enough.

One thing of Wario's I haven't accounted for seems to be his up-b. If his up B gives distance, Wario may have an unbelievable recovery (bike in the air for horizontal, hold in your down-b, and use your up-b). My judgement of Wario may be way off. I'm not going to change it, though, because my judgements of everyone seem to be way off.


Hello, stamina.  Seems you overlooked that detail.


That's just what i mean though. It's just some arbitrary rule forcing you to change pokemon for success. I'm still sure that each poikemon will have an obvious disadvantage, so you need to arbitrarily switch after x time so you can go to a pokemon with a different disadvantage. It just doesn't seem like there's a practical reason to switch, aside from stamina, which seems just like a gimmick to discourage you from playing Charizard the whole time or something.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 09:33:54 am by Stefan »

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2007, 12:31:55 am »
I have tons of things to pick apart in Stefan's predicted tier, but instead I'll post my own and the differences alone will provide justification.

Top

Meta Knight-The dude has moves. His sword attacks are quick, and therefore easy to string together. Add to that a decent sized disjointed hitbox, and you're talking about Marth with combo potential. Of course there's more. Multijumps mean he can probably pull one crazy aerial game. Couple this with his down B (confirmed to be a move in which he drops down very, very quickly and strikes with his sword), and you're talking about mind games layered on mind games. Those jumps, in conjunction with flying, will do wonders for Meta's survivability. He looks respectably fast as well; Metaknight could very well be the next Smash menace.

Sonic-And here's a shocker. I'm placing Sonic very high on this tier list, and I feel it's justified. He has absurd speed, which means he's all over needling opponents. Smash has always been about faking your opponent out, and speed's a great asset for that. If you don't believe me, watch a few Captain Falcon videos from Melee. Sonic also has some specials that look like they're toking on combo potential and insanity. I imagine something like Sidespecial>Jump>(aerial, second jump, sidespecial, neutralspecial)>(aerial, second jump, sidespecial, neutralspecial), etc. Juggling potential abounds. Sonic looks unpredictable, and for mindgame potential alone he deserves a spot this high. He also has beastly recovery, which certainly doesn't hurt his case.

Upper

Fox-Yeah, this low. Shocker of the century, right? I get the feeling he'll be nerfed. Fox is still going to flourish I'm sure, but I think there will be a changing of the guard. If the wavedash is taken out, Fox's usability takes a hit because his usual waveshine shenanigans won't work. Ditto foxtrot. For good measure place him several spots lower in that case. He'll still be getting in your face and making you uncomfortable with a brutal aerial/ground/smashgame without those, but he's not going to be nearly so devastating as in Melee without two of his most important features. Even assuming he keeps these, I still think other fighters will top him, if only because they look so much more powerful.

Zero Suit Samus-She's Sheik with good recovery, and therefore awesome. As though you need any description of how Sheik operates. She'll hit you with a tilt, and because her tilts have such low knockback and a good hitbox, she'll hit you with another at her leisure. Eventually she'll get bored, in which case segway to either a downsmash or an aerial, generally the fair for its high knockback, but maybe the nair for better range. It works. If Zero Suit has good aerials she's going to be dynamite, but even without them she'll still be highly playable. Her side B means she could be Sheik, but with a ground based ko move. She does get a move that stuns her opponent as well, which I'm betting helps her tons for edgeguarding. It figures they'd give a woman character a taser.

Pit-Pit is an interesting character who will either be rockstar or really shitty. He can jump multiple times in the air, and fly as well. His recovery move lets him fly throughout the stage for several seconds at will. It will be amazing if he can use aerials while flying. This just screams "best aerial fighter ever"...but you have to wonder what his range is. Pit doesn't look like he has very good range from the videos I've seen, and he certainly isn't the studliest of characters. He's going to need to rely on floating around, eventually knocking his opponent off the stage and then pursuing them freely, to be followed by aerial punishment. But of course he has to come down eventually, and deal with what seems like a lacking ground game. There are also those wicked arrows he has, which you're supposedly able to control. If control is precise, they could be a vice for edgeguarding when you're not able to track someone in midair, but otherwhise they're useless. There are too many variables with Pit, but I'm placing him high because of potential alone.

Peach-Putting Peach below Pit was something I really had to think about. Peach more or less stayed the same from Melee, where she wrought havoc and really didn't have any counters. But I'm thinking that Pit will be able to gurantee a ko after knocking someone off the level, and while turnips are the next best thing it isn't quite the same. I'm also banking on her downsmash, bair, and upsmash getting nuked, which will hurt Peach overall. I still think she'll be an upper echelon fighter though, because turnips alone are enough to throw off most players.

Samus-Samus was the best longrange fighter in Melee, and Prime 3 is awesome, so of course she's up here. Her potent projectiles are back, along with her godly recovery (dwarfed by Pit but still impressive). But she has no defense when a fighter gets up close, aside from a fluke bomb combo or two that you're better off not risking. The big question is whether the superwavedash returns. For the uninitiated, in Melee if Samus uses her downb and tilts left and right twice, she'll rocket a fair distance at impressive speed. This was her bread and butter, and what made her playable. If you played Samus and didn't swd, you lost. If this doesn't return for Brawl, Samus will be in a boatload of trouble, as she has no way of escaping in-your-face fighters like Fox. For good measure, knock her down a tier if she loses the swd.

Middle

Mario-It may be surprising that I put Mario so high, but I think fludd will give Mario a reliable way of edgeguarding that doesn't involve a kamikaze fair. Mario's never had much trouble tossing opponents off the level (his back throw in particular was rather effective for this sort of thing), but it's not as though he could do anything to them afterwards. Fludd gives Mario a projectile with knockback, which he's always really wanted. If fludd has decent damage-based knockback it may even offer him a reliable power move, but I'm not counting on it.

Yoshi-Another move that you probably didn't expect. Yoshi has some potential now that he gets a real recovery move. Being able to increase his jump height is good because it effectively adds 7 things for the player to do, which his opponent must predict. Either Yoshi can highjump, shffl, eggjump to highjump, eggjump to shffl, eggjump to eggjump, eggjump to shffl to high jump, or eggjump to highjump to eggjump to shffl. These are some serious mindgames. His attacks in Melee sucked, but I think with the eggjump Yoshi will be able to pull off a fearsome aerial game. I fear a combo of million kicks>eggjump>million kicks.

Wario-I've been called a sucker for thinking Wario will be good, but hey. We've all been in matches that went nowhere, where your opponent is able to stall you out and neither of you wants to make an agressive move for fear of getting combo'd. Now imagine that during all that time, you're building up a supercharged, instadie attack. Surely this idea tickles your fancy. If Wario has any semblance of a defensive game, he's going to pull off crazy ko's with the waft. While Otacon's mentioned in a video that Wario farts to fly, we don't know that this takes away from the reserve going towards the waft. If it does, and I'm betting it doesn't, then sure, bottom tier.

Pikachu-Pikachu's lack of range has always been disheartening, and that's not getting fixed. Pikachu has good throws, high speed, ok aerials, and the best smashes in the game, but it all means nothing because he has to get in close to pull things off. Distance fighters walk all over Pikachu, and close fighters trounce him. He'll remain comfortably nestled smack in the middle of the tier.

Ike-Everyone else has a hardon for Ike, but I'm not so keen on a heavier Marth. Roy was a heavier Marth. We don't know that Ike will have tippers, which defined Marth. He seems slow, which is also bad, and as such I'm not thinking he's going to do very well in Brawl. Still, he does seem better than what's left in the slush pile.

Ice Climbers-Ice Climbers I see getting nerfed, bigtime. They're all over the ground game, but of course they are slow so needed wavedash. If the wavedash doesn't come back in Brawl, they'll have nothing and probably be bottom tier, but I'll be consistant with this tier as I'm assuming it returns with Fox. So anyways, Ice Climber ground game is very annoying, especially against close fighters since the ai always has a tendency to disrupt combos. One of their biggest selling points was the crazy chain throws they could pull off, but you know those aren't coming back. I don't really expect much from the climbers, but this low in the tiers there really isn't much that's good.

Low

Kirby-Unfortunately, Kirby is more or less carbon copy from Melee, where he sucked hard for want of priority, speed, good aerials, tilts, smashes, specials, and just about everything else. Kirby doesn't have many redeeming traits, but it's not as though he's unplayable.

Diddy Kong-He's fast, which counts for something. He seems like another puny fighter with bad range and poor recovery, but there are worse guys you could be.

Link-There's nothing special about Link. It looks like he's unchanged from Melee, where he wasn't exactly the most stolid of fighters. Slowness, lack of recovery, awful aerials, and useless tilts make Link a dull, dull boy.

Donkey Kong-Another lackluster fighter. He's a powerhouse sure, but he's too big and bulky. Which wouldn't be an issue if he had any sort of range, but he doesn't so it is. Donkey Kong needs to get close to do anything, at which point he probably just walked into a combo. Donkey Kong Country sucked too.

Botom

Snake-He seems like a gimmick to me. Snake looks slow, with moves that take ages to use. If your smash attack is to dig a hole and plant a landmine, then you're not a very good character.

Bowser-There are so many powerhouses with no range. Do I even need to bother explaining that Bowser gets pummeled when he tries to do anything against an opponent?

Zelda-Slow? Powerful but impossible to land attacks? Poor recovery? Brown hair instead of blonde? Bottom tier.

Pokemon Trainer-I like the idea of pokemon trainer, I really do. I look forward to playing a character with such an interesting concept. That said, pokemon trainer isn't functional. Stamina makes you even more susceptible to hit-and-run characters. I shudder when I think of what Fox could do against Pokemon Trainer using his laser alone. The pokemon don't look like they're very good either. Squirtle is the generic fast but weak character, Charizard is the token muscleman with no recovery that takes a pounding, and Ivysaur doesn't look like it can do much. Let's not even get into detailed analysis of how you have to learn three characters, and will always have a crippling weakness at a given moment.

Tier list finally finished. I didn't bother ranking Lucas, as we know nothing about him. Thoughts?

Edit: forgot about Low tier, my bottom did feel a bit large...


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Offline Rick_242

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2007, 01:31:51 am »
Don't see the point in all this tier stuff but, if people want to know which characters are best for comp, who am I to judge if it's dumb or not. Looking forward to playing the game and I might do so if I go to the LA Convention Center. :O

ps.

Quote from: Genus
Botom

*Bottom
<Sondow> also what
<Sondow> since when was S&K an expansion pack to s3
<Sondow> wiki LIES

Offline Taillow

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2007, 01:54:13 am »
Looking forward to playing the game and I might do so if I go to the LA Convention Center. :O
You have money to pay for a pass!?!??  Curse you!

If you do, don't rub it in.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 02:08:14 am by Quartz »
Hi

Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2007, 09:02:20 am »


Yoshi-Another move that you probably didn't expect. Yoshi has some potential now that he gets a real recovery move. Being able to increase his jump height is good because it effectively adds 7 things for the player to do, which his opponent must predict. Either Yoshi can highjump, shffl, eggjump to highjump, eggjump to shffl, eggjump to eggjump, eggjump to shffl to high jump, or eggjump to highjump to eggjump to shffl. These are some serious mindgames. His attacks in Melee sucked, but I think with the eggjump Yoshi will be able to pull off a fearsome aerial game. I fear a combo of million kicks>eggjump>million kicks.



This logic is so fail. It's effectively like saying Fox's Firefox, Peach's Parasol, Pikachu's Thunder Shock (it's thudnershock right?) and all other characters' up bs provide for mindgame potential. They don't. What makes Yoshi's different?




Snake-He seems like a gimmick to me. Snake looks slow, with moves that take ages to use. If your smash attack is to dig a hole and plant a landmine, then you're not a very good character.


Ok. Yes, Snakes a gimmick. Yes, he looks slow with slow moves.  However

A.) If having an attack that takes a while makes you a not good character, let's put Captain Falcon, Samus, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik and plenty of others bottom tier. Aka, that's not anything.

B.) Isn't snake's downsmash that rocket launcher one that looks a lot like Samus's? You know, the one where he kneels and fire diagonally into the ground, alot like Samus's smash?

C.) the move isn't inherently useless.. Why can't you use the move when your opponent dies, like Sheik's needles, Peach's turnips, DK's giga punch, or Samus's Charge shot? Why are you unable to plant mines mid stock?

D.) Digging a hole doesn't have to be as time consuming as you make it sound (peach's turnips, dk's side-b)

So yeah. I think you're offbase with Snake. And a few others. But snake is a big one.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 10:04:09 am by Stefan »

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2007, 02:28:37 pm »
We went over this in chat, but I went with the assumption Yoshi gets 1 egg throw per jump. The Snake thing was a joke,  but his attacks look too slow to be practical.

Next Monday, Isai's going to enter the tournament with the demo, so we should know more about new and returning techniques. What was the prize for winning again?


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Offline CosmicFalcon

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2007, 02:38:41 pm »
Attempting to predict tiers is fundamentally dumb.

They are defined by tournament play. Which, as previously said, is dependant on tournament players' preference, the characters' users' skill levels, in addition to the character's actual playability, advantages and disadvantages.

Sure, these educated guesses make some sense. But there's no use in labelling it as tier predictions, because the tiers are set by the tournament players. If every tournament player chooses to use Snake 100% of the time (highly unlikely scenario), that would by default make Snake top tier and everyone else bottom tier.

Some responses all the same though, while I wait for my laundry...

Fox
Placed 'Top' by Stefan on the condition that he doesn't get 'nerfed'.
Erm... So you are expecting the developers to just not do their job?
The ideal fighting game has one single tier. That is to say it is balanced. Although, considering what I said before about what tiers are determined by, the existance of tiers doesn't necessarily prove character imbalance (if only bad players use a character, they fall down the tier list), though they do support it.
The developers will have been all to aware of any under-/over-powered characters, and will attempt to balance them in one way or another. I would place money on that.

Pokémon Trainer
Changing Pokémon would be pointless? So, you'd say the same about Zelda/Sheik right? Considering it's the same concept, just with three forms and not one.
Moreover, you're on the money with each having different disadvantages (and advantages, though that you didn't mention), but these aren't just arbitrary. Different adv/disadvs will suit different scenarios. Charizard will probably have gliding ability. Ivysaur, on the other hand, will probably be able to recover by tether (or whatever the buzzword is). Squirtle... er... is small? *shrug*

Erm... any other response I was going to make was probably again based on the fact that they will strive for more balance. There's no way they can possibly leave unbalanced characters as they were... the game must be re-balanced, even if it had been balanced before, simply because of the addition of new characters.

And also, basing characters' future performance on performance in SSB(M) has a slight flaw in that the gameplay is changing moreso than before. Final Smashes, different items, home-turf advantages (I think? did I make that up?), yadda yadda yadda, will change everything. Like it or not.

Anyway, carry on.
"A graph of cf's coolness as age increases would be exponential." - Stefan [14:26, 2008/08/23]
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Offline Stefan

Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2007, 03:19:44 pm »
Attempting to predict tiers is -dumb-, yes, but it's also extremely fun. I know there's no basis for this, that it has no real applications, and that it's pointless because we know nothing, but that doesn't keep me from doing it. I enjoy speculating, so this is fair enough.

As such, you pretty much have to go on the basis of what you know. For anyone that's in melee, you know about melee. For those who weren't, you know a couple moves. I know that producers strive to balance the game and create a single tier. In order to make a tier list, however, I have to go off what I know about these characters. And since there's no clue that fox, or many other characters -have- changed, I have to rank them the same. The problem you describe here is a fundamental problem of speculation in general, but I'm going to speculate regardless of the problems it brings.

"But there's no use in labelling it as tier predictions"

 Er? I'm predicting the level at which these characters will be used in tournament play. I find pikachu to be a decent character, but he's low in the tiers because he's not used in melee much. I don't see how I can't describe these as tier predictions, because that's exactly what I'm doing.

About Fox, back to the idea of going only off what I know. It's highly likely Fox's shine and speed and other moves will be weakened, but without confirmation, placing him at the top with the knowledge I have is a better choice than putting him midtier just because I expect him to be weakened to a degree of middle tier.

About Pokemon Trainer, you pretty much proved my point. Zelda/Sheik are two -seperate- characters. This is well documented in tournament play. You try to bring up Zelda/Sheik as an example of two characters being switched strategically, but, in tournament play, only Sheik is ever really used. In Sheik "playing tutorials", the move down-b is described as "Losing the match". You don't use both Zelda and Sheik! You use -Sheik- alone. Even the rare Zelda player is loyal to using only Zelda. Changing characters effectively is pointless. Pokemon trainer may be the same way. The problem, though, is that having three characters that are designed to be played as one means that certain characters will have different strengths (happy?? :P) and weaknesses. Following in Zelda/Sheik's footsteps, this means that only the pokemon that shows itself as the best will really be played. But since all the pokemon have arbitrary weaknesses to get you to switch, that single pokemon will be severely hampered. I'm just fairly sure that the 3-pokemon-switch idea will rarely work out strategically.

And yeah, everything will be changed. I like it. I like Brawl because of it. The main reason I'm speculating here is so I can look back in a year and say "oh man, I was way off there" or "dude, I hit the nail on the head with that one". I don't expect this to be taken seriously at all (well, maybe a little)

Anyway, thanks for your commentary. x)



On an entirely seperate note, Little Mac confirmed to be an assist trophy. My hopes and dreams are shattered, man.

Offline Aitamen

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Re: The Same Brawl Topic Again! But not nuked by switching to a server backup.
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2007, 04:53:04 am »
CF, wtf ARE you talking about?

PLAYERS have NOTHING TO DO with TIERS.

Read Platinum Kirby's statements about what tiers are before you go babbling again, if you'd be so kind

Anyway, based on what has been done and what is being done, notable changes between SSB/SSBM and SSBB are going to be noted, and then a rough guess at Tiers

Z/L cancel - Still there, still nerfed like in SSBM.  Very few people REALLY complained about this, and it seems to have good balance.  My personal opinion is either A) it should be removed and the lag should just be dropped alot, or B) it should go back to how it stood in SSB (no-lag after grounding an aerial attack), but both of those are bad for most major audiences, and it makes a HUGE difference for some characters, so it'll make some newbs easier to beat. 

WDing - My personal guess here is based upon what happened to the air-battle-modifying glitching from SSB to SSBM.  WD, in my guess, will be PUT in instead of being an inherantly abused oversite.  in SSB, ZCing or not ZCing (not Purin players) turned the game upside down, and lacking even that by itself means you SUCK at the game in tourny and serious play.  In SSBM, it was WDing, So I think it'll get the same treatment when you go to the next game... IE, rather than being a glitch, it'll be put in as a mechanic that will be nerfed from the original use that it garnered in it's original setting

Based on this, it'll be a LOT of initial-build air game.  My only thoughts here are that the DHBers of the game will be MUCH slower in movement to balance...

the only massive bummer, thus-far for me, is that shield-stun isn't coming back, and niether is hit-stun, DI is supposedly left able-to-be-abused, and thus there will be NO COMBOS, just like SSBM.

Which means that there's no strategy, just like SSBM

And I look forward to owning people online, unlike SSBM, but much like SSB!

BRING IT ON!

people I don't note aren't thought on, btw....

Sonic
----
Renku
----
Mario
Purin
Fox
----
Snake
----
Bowser


just guessing with fair reason, again being based on the changes from SSB to SSBM, mostly...
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