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Offline Thorn

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New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« on: January 27, 2007, 05:55:23 pm »
Maybe I'm just crazy, but there's still a few things lying around that we should really get settled within the next... *looks at main page to see when the next excuse for a rule update is* ...few hours.  Anybody who's bumped into something he/she wasn't sure of, please post it here, whether you found an answer or not.

Here's my two sense:

S3&K:
  • I had always assumed that you could end an act anywhere but needed to start at the correct start for a character (i.e. no three-second IC2).  The newest IC2K record uses Sonic's start.  Can this somehow be written into a rule to make it clear that it's legal?
  • From what I've seen, rings uncovered by the Act 1 finish sign count towards either act.  This really needs to be said...
  • I've been told that a Launch Base 2 shortcut in Sonic & Knuckles Collection is forbidden since it's blocked by invisible walls in the original.  It's already banned as a "functional change in level layout", but since it's an invisible solidity object that moved and not the level layout, it could use mentioning.
  • Balloon Park's balloon-per-lap rule establishes Freestyle, but disallows a perfectly acceptable method.  I wouldn't begin to know the correct wording, though.

Sonic R:
  • Grand Prix and Time Attack are both acceptable modes for Three/Single Lap records.

Knuckles Chaotix:
  • If Stage Select is enabled, pausing during a screen fadeout needs to be banned, as the Stage Select also activates a Debug that will let the screen fade while the timer remains paused.

S1:
  • Simply add something after the title on the rules page that separates it from S1GBA.  I figure this was gonna be done anyway, but eh.

Rivals:
  • If you get an opponent stuck, the cap on whacking him should be, say, five times or so.  Sky Park's my main concern, you can get a Rival stuck on the strongman bells and beat him to kingdom come for eternity, at 500 points a hit.

That's all I remember, although I'm sure there's other things we hit on in the last few months.  Please say anything that needs to be said.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2007, 07:33:16 pm by Thorn »
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Offline magnum12

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 12:55:33 am »
I'd say five times should be the cap for the Rivals issue.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 07:20:20 am »
On that note Id like to point out that White Acropolis Sonic has an infinite amount of points~
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Offline eggFL

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 07:32:15 am »
In reponse to RPG: you guys dealt with that exact problem in certain stages in SA2 by making a time limit. So let's do that in Sonic06. What time limit do you propose for White Acropolis Sonic?

Offline Taillow

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2007, 08:37:31 am »
Bah.  MORE games with infinite points?  There needs to be a good way to deal with that...  Especially if Rivals has a suggestion different to every other one.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2007, 10:10:14 am »
I thought of that stage as well particularly that part. I say three times should be the cap.

The following rules for Rivals should also be there but Rolken didn't put 'em up...

edit:
My original rules were:

*Stats for Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow and Silver can be done in Story, Challenge or Cup Circuit Mode.
*Stats for Metal Sonic can only be done in Challenge or Cup Circuit Mode. 
*The usage of costumes is permitted for all applicable modes. 
*Any rival can be chosen for both Challenge and/or Cup Circuit Mode.

The first one and second one is kinda like the Sonic R rule. I think we should still put 'em in.
The third one should also go in but I'm thinking there should be re-wording here.
As for the last one, it's not necessary anymore.

edit:
Heroes: The new TBG rules need to be made clear.

edit:
Scratch that, it's there. Rolken should've updated the date when he did that since this was a fairly recent decision...
« Last Edit: January 28, 2007, 10:24:10 am by knuckles_sonic8 »
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Offline PsyBorg

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2007, 11:57:58 am »
On that note Id like to point out that White Acropolis Sonic has an infinite amount of points~

How is this so?
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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2007, 12:26:55 pm »
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Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 12:51:24 am »
Knuckles Chaotix:
  • If Stage Select is enabled, pausing during a screen fadeout needs to be banned, as the Stage Select also activates a Debug that will let the screen fade while the timer remains paused.
There's already a rules that prohibits moving while paused, wouldn't that fall under the same category?

Quote
S1:
  • Simply add something after the title on the rules page that separates it from S1GBA.  I figure this was gonna be done anyway, but eh.
S1GBA's got its separate "submission page," remember?

And KS8 your rules are mostly intuitive and not "rules." And are covered by the "Anyone" division. The rules are supposed to say what you can't do, not what you can.

Also I propose time caps for all infinite score levels like we already have. (15 minutes on SA2(B), 9:58 on S3K/Advance 2, etc.)
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Offline Thorn

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 02:59:50 pm »
Knuckles Chaotix:
  • If Stage Select is enabled, pausing during a screen fadeout needs to be banned, as the Stage Select also activates a Debug that will let the screen fade while the timer remains paused.
There's already a rules that prohibits moving while paused, wouldn't that fall under the same category?
You don't have to move, though, you just pause and wait, and you save a second and a half per fadeout.  It only happens after applying the cheat, though, so I just thought I'd mention it.  Not like Chaotix is the most urgent game on the rules page.

And for S1GBA, there's always one idiot, so better safe than sorry, etc.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 07:33:10 pm »
And for S1GBA, there's always one idiot, so better safe than sorry, etc.

True.
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Offline Marth

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 08:43:48 pm »
S3&K:
  • I had always assumed that you could end an act anywhere but needed to start at the correct start for a character (i.e. no three-second IC2).  The newest IC2K record uses Sonic's start.  Can this somehow be written into a rule to make it clear that it's legal?
  • From what I've seen, rings uncovered by the Act 1 finish sign count towards either act.  This really needs to be said...
  • I've been told that a Launch Base 2 shortcut in Sonic & Knuckles Collection is forbidden since it's blocked by invisible walls in the original.  It's already banned as a "functional change in level layout", but since it's an invisible solidity object that moved and not the level layout, it could use mentioning.
  • Balloon Park's balloon-per-lap rule establishes Freestyle, but disallows a perfectly acceptable method.  I wouldn't begin to know the correct wording, though.

Sonic R:
  • Grand Prix and Time Attack are both acceptable modes for Three/Single Lap records.

That's all I remember, although I'm sure there's other things we hit on in the last few months.  Please say anything that needs to be said.
What's this about Launch Base? Isn't that the same as a GCN advantage in Sonic Adventure?
Like how that invisible wall in Final Egg was removed (before the 8-second runs). Why would it be banned?

Also, speaking of Sonic 3, isn't there some weirdness about Hydrocity? The capsule can be hit, but
the timer doesn't even freeze, and the screen doesn't fade out, or something. Has that been settled yet?

^Tied in with that is Sonic Adventure. Sonic can die or get trapped after hitting the capsule.
This can be a huge annoyance (Final Egg on Dreamcast) or a huger-than-huge annoyance
(Sky Deck on either system). Unlike in Hydrocity, the timer does stop, meaning that it's easy
to keep track of the record, and the only problem is that the game doesn't return to the Character Select.
Obviously, times gotten like this (with Sonic getting stuck, at least, or maybe even if he dies)
will have to be allowed if the Hydrocity times are. This problem is many months old.

Also in Sonic Adventure are the unlimited ring rules. Why are the unlimited rings tricks being
banned one at a time. Make a rule which states that no tricks that could be used for unlimited rings
are allowed. Or, just ban the levels that have gotten broken (if everyone knows, and there's no competition).

And finally, there's the E-102 thing. The current rule is dumb, and it's not being enforced, anyway.
If nothing can be worked out, just go back to no rule at all. I don't know exactly what to do about
Dreamcast, though. Just allow the maximum for a version advantage?
Hey, SadisticMystic, how did you get a time comparable to GCN times, anyway?
I thought it just stayed at the "maximum" (of just under 100 minutes) for almost half an hour.
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Offline magnum12

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 09:23:55 pm »
I still like my proposal for the Hot Shelter Issue. It's extreme, but its the best way to save what would other wise be one of the most broken levels in TSC competition.
-Rule: You may not hit any switch more than three times. (Can be changed to three consequtive times.) This rule accounts for accidental shots to make it easier to enforce. This rule alone might not enough since the GC version is still super broken, so a no permanent time freeze glitch rule might be nessecary.
-I agree that we should have a universal "no unlimited ring techniques rule for all ring divisions".
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Offline SadisticMystic

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 10:49:16 pm »
The Launch Base over-the-top trick only works on a rather obscure version of the game, and is both predated and postdated by versions of the game which behave similarly and don't allow that path.  Think along the lines of "Why can't I use S1GBA to submit to S1 charts?"

The problem with "don't use unlimited ring tricks, mmmkay?" is it's rather vague what that actually means.  Is any use of anything that can provide endless rings prohibited (in other words, "If you're not taking unorthodox paths for Lost World S, you don't even get to compete on that chart" among other things)?  Is it limited to the default 1 repetition?  What's a repetition?  Currently you can use Speed Highway bells to get 5 hits:15 rings.  Would "1 repetition" mean you would only be able to get 1:5?

In E-102 Hot Shelter, the variable cap on minutes is different across systems.  Just as you can have 100 or more lives and only have it display as 99, so too (on Dreamcast) can you rack up a timer of 100 or more minutes, at which point it says 99:59.99.  The limit on minutes is a signed (why?) byte, or 127.  This would just be a simple version difference, except that if you complete the level with 100 or more minutes, there's nowhere at all where the full time is displayed.  Either the initial 1 is truncated, the whole time is sent down to 99:59.99 for display, or the minutes go down to 99 with the seconds unchanged depending on where you look.  But because one of the displays simply truncates the 1, it's clear that the time is read internally as 100+.

At this point, my inclination for Hot Shelter is to scrap the chart entirely, much like Casinopolis S doesn't have score or ring charts.

Offline Marth

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2007, 07:57:21 pm »
The Launch Base over-the-top trick only works on a rather obscure version of the game, and is both predated and postdated by versions of the game which behave similarly and don't allow that path.  Think along the lines of "Why can't I use S1GBA to submit to S1 charts?"

The problem with "don't use unlimited ring tricks, mmmkay?" is it's rather vague what that actually means.  Is any use of anything that can provide endless rings prohibited (in other words, "If you're not taking unorthodox paths for Lost World S, you don't even get to compete on that chart" among other things)?  Is it limited to the default 1 repetition?  What's a repetition?  Currently you can use Speed Highway bells to get 5 hits:15 rings.  Would "1 repetition" mean you would only be able to get 1:5?

In E-102 Hot Shelter, the variable cap on minutes is different across systems.  Just as you can have 100 or more lives and only have it display as 99, so too (on Dreamcast) can you rack up a timer of 100 or more minutes, at which point it says 99:59.99.  The limit on minutes is an unsigned byte, or 127.  This would just be a simple version difference, except that if you complete the level with 100 or more minutes, there's nowhere at all where the full time is displayed.  Either the initial 1 is truncated, the whole time is sent down to 99:59.99 for display, or the minutes go down to 99 with the seconds unchanged depending on where you look.  But because one of the displays simply truncates the 1, it's clear that the time is read internally as 100+.

At this point, my inclination for Hot Shelter is to scrap the chart entirely, much like Casinopolis S doesn't have score or ring charts.
The obscurity is probably the only thing that would count. The newest version of SADX
took out glitches, didn't it? (I don't know if it removed shortcuts, though.) But fair enough.

I didn't mean to remove the individual ring rules. They'd stay along with the general rule, to support it
and, of course, lessen or eliminate vagueness. If there's no rule, you can expect me to abuse
any new trick I can find, and temporarily get into an easy first place. But then, it gets harder to find good
glitches of any kind, and it's possible that there aren't anymore new ways of getting unlimited rings.

I knew about all that weirdness and the different displays of the time from what you said before,
but unless I'm missing something, there's no way to get GCN-level times on a Dreamcast, besides
waiting until the time is around 100 minutes before attempting to beat Zeta. Is that what you did?
The only other way to get a lower-than-max time (not counting the case in which the 1 is cut off
to make the record look worse than it is) is to use the time which uses the correct number of seconds
(the level clear screen, I think), and that one can be manipulated. (Wait until it's about to
show a "59" before destroying the final cannon, and you've got a 99'58"-- or 99'59"--.)
It looks as if the best options are (in order):
- Allow both versions, and Dreamcast players can add 100 minutes to what's shown on the stage select.
- Use the 3 consecutive hits rule.

Did I forget one option? I feel like I did, but I can't think of what it is. Maybe those are the only options.

Anyway, a chart only needs to be deleted completely if there's no competition.
There's nothing wrong with Hot Shelter, besides that it's broken, but so's just about every stage.
I don't see several players tying for first (anything easily maxable), or competing simply to
see who has the most patience (like in Casinopolis-Sonic).

Or is the problem something about proof? This isn't Cyberscore. The records can be proven
with a recording or screenshot taken at the stage clear screen, which is no different from playing
the original StH on a real Genesis. And I have records that aren't saved on my file, for different reasons.
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Offline stanski

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2007, 10:46:00 am »
I would like to make one proposal

Sonic 2- Open up ring division in casino nights, however no slot machine may be used. I know this is a disadvantage for all those people who are not active in sonic 2, but i don't see the problem with a ring division in those levels with this rule, when similar rules are in place for other games.

Offline magnum12

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2007, 02:58:40 pm »
There's one problem with that proposal. If you're doing serious RAing, it could get really difficult to always avoid the slot machines since they're often linked to a bunch of bounce objects. That proposal is however, a better idea in Sonic Heroes. Casino Park (Chaotix) missions have a ring cap, so there's no unlimited ring potential. Its easier to avoid the slots for the other characters and the Bingo game only gives a set number. Perhaps we need a rule for Bingo Highway that states you can only pass thorough the same bingo table once.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2007, 04:22:00 pm »
That proposal is however, a better idea in Sonic Heroes. Casino Park (Chaotix) missions have a ring cap, so there's no unlimited ring potential. Its easier to avoid the slots for the other characters and the Bingo game only gives a set number. Perhaps we need a rule for Bingo Highway that states you can only pass thorough the same bingo table once.

Very true.

I second the notion, magnum. I had a similar idea a while back but I didn't share as I thought it'd be rejected. The "ring cap" is similar to the "ring cap" for Circus Park/Shadow, a Rings division we were considering and finally put in for the proposal for Shadow Ring divisions. This could still work for Casino but I'm more inclined to agree with the BINGO Highway idea.
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Offline eredani

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2007, 04:54:51 pm »
It isn't very difficult at all to avoid the slot machines in Casino Night, so there should be no problems with disallowing them for Ring attacks. In case we add Ring divisions for Casino Night Zone, then we would also have to add Score divisions for those levels, and it should be allowed to use the point slots a single time each.

Offline stanski

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2007, 06:20:10 pm »
Yea, I think score should be added as well. What about the bumpers that give 10 points? At some points, you can get stuck and hit them like 3 or 4 times. I suppose they are only worth 10 points, and you can only hit them 10 times, so you could just not worry about them and make the player decide whether its worth it or not to hit the bumpers. That was the big problem i saw with scores in casino nights.

I agree about the slot machines, if you can't avoid them, you shouldn't be ring attacking the level, period.

Offline Ring Rush

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2007, 11:01:14 pm »
For Casino Night, can't it just be like Knuckles/Rouge levels in SA2(B)? All rings gotten from slots must be subtracted from your total. In that case you don't have to avoid any slots.
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Offline stanski

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2007, 12:44:54 am »


Well, the slot machines are evil: if you get all robotniks, you lose all your rings (well, i think like 100 or 150 technically). I suppose you could take your chances...

Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2007, 12:52:34 pm »
For Casino Night, can't it just be like Knuckles/Rouge levels in SA2(B)? All rings gotten from slots must be subtracted from your total. In that case you don't have to avoid any slots.

That's not a bad idea.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2007, 01:42:46 pm »
That has the disadvantage of having to keep close count, its not a simple case of just 5's, 10's or 20's like hunting M1's.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: New Games Are Up, But OLD Rules Remain Ambiguous
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2007, 01:43:59 pm »
Sorry to revive this (I'll get my share of slaps later I guess) but Rivals rules need to be CLEARLY stated as well.
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