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Offline General Throatstomper

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Group Playthrough
« on: October 15, 2006, 08:44:44 pm »
Ok, so I got a "great" idea a few minutes ago, by which I mean 15 minutes, ago. TSC is all about being awesome and such. However, rarely is there a team effort to be awesome. So how about a collective, non competitive run of a game, done by transfering savestates?

The thinking is that each player would play for something like an hour, loading a previous savestate, playing a bit, making a savestate, and giving it on to the next player. That player would then continue the process, giving their savestate to yetanother player, and so on. This would ideally work with a "marathon" style game such as Kid Chameleon, or a lengthy, open style RPG such as Dragon Warrior Monsters. Like I said, though, it's not competitive; the goal here isn't to get as many points or go through the game as quickly as possible, but rather to make it easier for the next player by getting more lives, stronger characters, etc. and have fun in the process. After everything is complete, a video will be compiled and all involved can lol at how badly someone screwed everyone else over. Of course, we would need people to sign up for this, and reach a mutual agreement on which game (or games, should we plan to do this more than once) to play.

Some leeway should be granted with bad runs; if someone blows all the lives away, they should start from the beggining of the state. If someone just can't beat a level, they say so, and someone else picks up the slack.

Is anybody on board for this? And if so, have any suggestions for games? Personally, I would love to see Kid Chameleon finished all the way (with its 400 something levels).


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Offline yse

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 09:22:07 pm »
I vote for Blue Sphere. Who's with me.

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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2006, 09:38:36 pm »
Blue Sphere I'd help with, but I might go insane.  Kid Chameleon I'd DEFINITELY help with, it's been ages since I played that on Sega Smash Pack.  I know there's a few other games that'd be great, but they're not coming to mind.  Perhaps a game that's a total nonentity, for fun value.

EDIT: Okay, I looked in my case of Genesis cartridges and thought of some that only would allow for, say, six players, but you guys likely have never played them before:
  • Wayne's World: This is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the hardest platformer I have ever played.  Off the top of my head, there're only four levels split into 13 or so sections total, but I guess it'd make for a great joke.  This one would be great if everybody used their savestates wisely, resetting when you lose a life or such.
  • Tiny Toon Adventures - Buster's Hidden Treasure: Yes, it is a kid's game.  But it's like Sonic 2 meets Super Mario World, in that you can hit insane speeds, and clear out enemies like there's no tomorrow, but you can also get great platforming action, and there's two exits in some levels leading to branching progression.  This one has... *counts on fingers* ...about 35 levels total, 6 of which are optional.
Thoughts?  I could make a video clip of portions of the two and see if you agree or think I'm just plain crazy.

Also if this is non-competitive I'd love to see some newbies flail around in Chaotix *shot with a cannon*
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 03:28:37 pm by Thorn »
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2006, 10:11:13 pm »
I've never heard of the Wayne's World game, but Buster's Adventure is pro. However, it doesn't quite have the length of...yeah, Kid Chameleon.

Blue Sphere is a pretty great idea for "..." though. But the problem is that I don't think anyone actually lacks bluesphere, so passing savestates on there would be useless.

I'd say Bubsy, but it's too short to bear mentioning.

So far, Kid Chameleon is looking the best of all the suggestions.

Someone throw out some more ideas. Perhaps an RPG?


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Offline douglas

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2006, 07:07:26 am »
Bubsy!!!  Haven't played that in years.  First time I completed it I died after giving the boss I got hit at the same time so instead of a victory dance I got the death animation over and over again :).

Ah, good times.  But ya, quite short for something like this.  If we're looking for game length, how about Baldur's Gate 2 + expansion + mods with everything possible completed?
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Offline yse

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2006, 07:44:06 am »
I don't believe I've played Bubsy for a decade. Possibly even longer!

This might be a good trip down memory lane if nothing else.

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Offline magnum12

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2006, 12:05:35 pm »
I remember Bubsy. Really lose controls. Can't believe I beat it. Anyway, if we're adding up ideas for games to play with a save state, I'd suggest the Mega Man Zero series. (2 and 3 are the best chapters) Fun, fast paced, and tough enough to warrent team play. (I'd switch to attack control type B.)
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2006, 01:20:05 pm »
One of the Shining Force games

Iono how that'd work, maybe 1/2 battle/s per user or something?
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2006, 02:51:19 pm »
Ok, so let's take a vote on the proposed games.

They are:

Kid Chameleon
Vectorman 2
Wayne's World
Buster's Adventure
Balder's Gate
Megaman Zero
Shining Force

Oh and the obligatory "Other" option.

You know my stance-Kid Chameleon. Though keep in mind that if the first pass-it-on run goes well, there's always room for more games, as long as they are of decent length.


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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2006, 03:27:50 pm »
My vote still goes to Kid Chameleon as well, as a player's health, chosen exit, and transformation (or lack thereof) determines how the next player performs.  Everybody will need to speak to the next-in-line to see how to fit their needs best, and I think that'd make for a great team playthrough.  And I wanna be able to shoot the idiot that tries to ruin it all by using the alternate exit in Blue Lake Woods II, if somebody, somehow, misses the point entirely.

If we're not limited to one vote, I'd vouch for any game on this page as I haven't heard of most.  And BTW, genus, if Buster's Adventure is too short, then you can scratch off Wayne's World too; it's only 13 rounds over 4 levels.  My idea there was that it's so ridiculously difficult that you'd need the savestates, and I wanted to see some of the better TSCers break down and cry trying to beat it.

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Offline magnum12

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 04:44:39 pm »
My votes go to Baldur's Gate for sure, and either MMZ or Kid Chameleon (I've never played this game before.) If we're using Zero, I'm going to enjoy watching people squirm as they get their butts handed to them by Phantom, then have to disarm a bunch of bombs in 6-7 minutes if we're using Z1, or get sliced to ribbons by that annoying mantis boss in Z3. In all seriousness, if we use Zero, Z3 is our best bet since it has the best story, coolest final boss, and is probably one of the easier choices for new people to the series.
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Offline douglas

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 07:13:16 pm »
Thinking about it, BG could get waaaaay complicated (character choice, party choice, keeping track of quests etc).  Maybe we ought to go for something a little more linear first to see how it goes?

That in mind my vote is Kid Chameleon.
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2006, 09:33:57 pm »
Ok, it's looking like Kid Chameleon will be the first game on our list.

So far, the players who are interested in doing this are:

1) genus
2) mike89
3) CherryMay
4) Thorn
5) Douglas
6) magnum12
7) RPG

_ has, as always, said little on the topic, but did express curiosity about Kid Chameleon. Rolken said he wasn't planning on participating, obviously working on TSC4 ("working" >_>), and I didn't get Sprint's attention.

I figure that this will start soon. Let's make, say, Thursday the deadline for signups, and Friday when it actually starts. By then, owing to the fixed number of players, some more specific rules can be put in place.

As for the order, we should ween some of the newer players onto the game, and give the "vets" the later turns in rotation. Or start the "vets" off so they get more playtime in, and can help the newer players.

Thoughts?


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Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2006, 12:19:21 am »
Well I don't really have time to do it. I haven't played Buster's Hidden Treasure in ages though. I think I still have it lying around in my room though. >_>

And I'll be honest. I haven't played the rest. >_>

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Offline CosmicFalcon

Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2006, 04:11:24 am »
Adventure *shot*

Put me on the list, bitches.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2006, 12:55:52 pm »
I haven't played most of those games but whatever, Im in X)
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2006, 03:58:41 pm »
I tried posting when you first started this topic but my PC couldn't do it. I wanted to be a part of this too but I personally would've preferred another game I'm familiar with other than Megaman... maybe Sonic, Mario, or any other game of that nature... I dunno.

Nevertheless, still put me down. Thanks.
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2006, 05:53:05 pm »
ks8, it's better that people aren't very familiar with Kid Chameleon because it makes for more interesting runs. If we were to do this with, say, Sonic 1, everyone would know the best level paths. But with a not-so-popular but still fun game, this is not true.

If you have not downloaded Kid Chameleon, you can get it here

How will we determine the length of time each player plays before "passing it on"? Time would not be practical, because everyone operates on a different schedule. Maybe set a maximum of levels for each turn? Something along the lines of 4? The problem here is Elsewhere, which is to short to warrant being called a level. Obviously, there would be no limit for minimum levels played, because some of the levels in Kid Chameleon are just plain difficult, and some members may find themselves unable to complete them, or do so without a game over. Which is, you, know, important; don't get a game over, no matter what. Using continues is fine.

Oh and don't save over the state you got from the player who passed it to you, in the event you need someone else to do a portion of the level.

Focusing more on Kid Chameleon itself, can someone else suggest whether or not to enable running by default without pressing A (the only option that matters for this run on the options screen)? I'm debating on turning it off by default because some precise jumps are needed, but conversely you'll be holding the run button most of the time.

And now, an introduction to Kid Chameleon for newer players. A Kid Chameleon 101, if you will. Just a few rules to follow if you don't want to die a horrible death and set us all back starting on the first, though certainly not last, wakeup level in the game. I speak of course of Under Skull Mountain 2 (aka the one with the tank and the pits of death).

Kid Chameleon Things to Know

1) P blocks give you forms to use, so you're not as vulnerable.
2) If you're in a certain form and lose all your health, you don't die. You just go back to your default (crappy) form.
3) Most forms have action commands, which are used by pressing the Genesis equivalent of "C". The exception (or at least the one which comes to my mind) is Berserker, which is able to ram enemies and walls.
4) When in doubt, use the action command.
5) Red Stealth sucks. Hard.
6) Switch forms when you need to; some forms are needed for completing the level. Maniaxe can't do everything guys.
7) Take the time to explore; it's not necessarily about helping yourself, but the next player.
8) When really sinister music plays or you hear the word "DIE" (only sound effect in the game made by characters or enemies), run. The best example of this is Hills of the Warrior.
9) When possible, avoiding jumping on things.
10) Use the duck command. It's there for a reason.
11) Juggernaught is only practical approximately 1/2 of the time. If you pass the game on to another player with Juggernaught, I will be surprised.
12) When you hear a chime, press Start while holding A. You'll use a special ability which uses up diamonds.
13) After 99 diamonds, you don't get anymore. At that point, use a special ability.
14) There are many instant death traps in Kid Chameleon, such as dissapearing blocks the shift in and out of existance over bottomless pits or a pit too large to jump out of filled with magma. Doing the slightest thing wrong can and likely will result in death (see also the tank level).
15) Look where a cannon block will fire before activating it.
16) There are very few extra lives in Kid Chameleon (unless you hoard diamonds and use one of your abilities as a certain character), and 3 continues to start off with, with 3 lives per continue. That I know of, there is no way to get extra continues.
17) If you have one continue past the totem pole with 3 faces, you're in good shape.

That is all for now. Any other Kid Chameleon vets have something of note to add?




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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2006, 06:13:53 pm »
Those who have the first levels (actually, everybody) should search for invisible blocks.  The second level in particular has some nice goodies: two extra lives (cross), a continue (token), and a shortcut right at the start.

If you're in a rare/powerful/useful/fun/whatever-you-like transformation, don't stand right under the P boxes as you open them.  It's a good way to lose that form.

Consider savestating frequently, the level progression branches.  You can always duck backwards and try a different level.  I have a shoddy Paint-made map of the level progression, but I won't post it here to avoid spoilers.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2006, 06:34:12 pm »
GP, genus. Now that I think about it, someone I know has this plug-and-play thing featuring SEGA Classics and I think this is on it. I remember it a bit... something about a Ninja or something-or-other, right?

If I was, just outta curiousity, exclude myself from this game, when do you think a new playthrough would happen? Also, what game would we do next?

Again, just curious, as, most likely, I'll probably still participate in this one.
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2006, 07:02:25 pm »
I have no clue when this run will end. Most games of Kid Chameleon are very long, around 5 hours (or at least it is on your first completion). Factor in the savestate abuse almost certainly needed to beat the game, the delay from finishing a savestate and the next person picking up, and the inevitable technical problem, and you have at least a few weeks.

As for the next game, it will probably be something in the Zero series because that has been getting a lot of nominations. Or at least it seems that way. If anybody else has a strong game to put forward for next time, do so without fear of persecution.

Oh and I suggest we all use Gens32 when possible, so as to make the run look somewhat consistant in terms of video quality. Obviously if you can't use gens32, then find another recording program and use that (though there you want fullscreen mode because screen capture is unwatchable otherwhise).


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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2006, 07:17:24 pm »
genus, can you explain how to use gens32, as when I go in it looks twice as confusing as any other Gens I've used to date.  And the framerate seems slower.

Quote from: ks8
I remember it a bit... something about a Ninja or something-or-other, right?

...sure, why not?
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2006, 05:53:00 pm »
I was going on word of mouth for gens32, and upon further inspection deem it crap. It crashes, is resource heavy (explaining the "framerate" issues thorn have), and has an ugly, unintuitive interface. As such, we shall use Gens Plus for recording keystrokes, done by right clicking and selecting "Record input" under file (or at least it's something similair to that). At that point, we'll need someone to make an avi out of it. Though I'm not sure on this, having had no experience with vidding myself.

 If you can not install Gens Plus for whatever reason, lower your monitor resolution to something like 400x600 and use another screen capture program while in full screen mode (F-man suggested fraps, but the chances are that if you can't install gens plus you can't install that either).

If anyone here has experience with another good screencapture programs, post them. Psy could use your help.

As for the matter of the order of rom passing...do it based on who signed up after you. This makes the order:

1) genus
2) CherryMay
3) Thorn
4) mike89
5) Douglas
6) magnum12
7) RPG
8) CF
9) ks8
10) PsyBorg

The maximum ammount of levels that can be played by a given user for each turn is 4. In the event that you are playing the levels named "Elsewhere", you may complete the entirety of those levels before passing it on, should you so choose.

Remember, if you can't beat a level, pass it on to someone else. If you get a game over, try again, or if you can't work with the file pass it on. If the game gets to an impossibly hard point (for example, with 1 life and no continues right before a difficult level), we can always start over from an earlier save. For this, however, a consensus should probably be reached.

When posting in the topic after your turn, summarise what you've done with your portion. It's a good idea to mention your life/continue total (if different) and form.

EDIT:reread the revised post. Information has changed.

Double Edit:Reread the reread post. The order was changed.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 09:03:10 pm by genus »


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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2006, 03:07:36 pm »
FRAPS costs $37, and if you can't pay for it, you can only record 30 seconds at a time.  I'd suggest sticking to Gens+.  And making the AVI isn't hard, if we get the Gens+ recording, I can run it through Camtasia or something, and I'm sure other members have tools for that too.

Also, in the interest of killing spare time I have, and in giving everyone a rough idea where they'll be thrown into the fray, I figured out the first few levels that some people will play, assuming that each person does all of their four and assuming that Elsewhere doesn't count towards the four.  Also, it assumes no warp out of Blue Lake Woods 2 and no secret warp out of Under Skull Mountain 1.  If you're looking to show off or prepare or just about whatever...
Also I hope I didn't misunderstand how this'll work, I could have read it all wrong.
genus: Blue Lake Woods I & II, Highwater Pass I & II, possibly an Elsewhere
Cherry: Under Skull Mountain I, II, and III, possibly an Elsewhere, Isle of the Lion Lord

From here it diverges; the normal (likely) path is...
Thorn: Hills of the Warrior I & II, possibly an Elsewhere, Windy City, Sinister Sewers
Douglas: The Crystal Crags I & II (Elsewhere in between, maybe), Dragonspike, The Pinnacle OR Stormwalk Mountain

...and the other path is that Cherry takes  an Elsewhere in IotLL and we go
Thorn: Pyramids of Peril (possible infinite loop by repeating last Elsewhere), Madmaze Mountain, and from here it diverges too much for me to know.

Anyhoo, now that you've got a relative idea (is that all right?), talk to the person in line before you and discuss how they should/can set you up.

EDIT: Also on a somewhat related note, I can't open the .zip from the link to the ROM you put.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 08:37:18 pm by Thorn »
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2006, 03:47:48 pm »
Thorn: I've got my run planned out. From Blue Lake 1 to Highwater Pass II is, obviously, linear. I wind up getting 5 extra lives (by using Berserker's 50 diamond power of getting an extra life in Highwater Pass I), 30 something diamonds after that, and 2 extra continues when warping to Elsewhere as ManiAxe and getting *most* of the diamonds there. I toyed with sending Mike off to Island of the Lion Lord for a second or two before realizing that he would probably lose the ManiAxe form and remembering that there are less diamonds and, that I know of, no continues/extra lives. In Elsewhere, I'll get some diamonds and the extra life, and leave Mike Maniaxe. I thought of maybe getting Cyclone to make Under Skull Mountain 2 and 3 easier, but it makes Under Skull Mountain 1 harder by limiting attack options to jumping on the enemy.

Thorn: you have to unzip it first with Winrar. Download Winrar here.

Mike: In Under Skull Mountain I, try and get the P boxes, even though it feels like you're being rushed. If I remember correctly, there is at least one extra life and one continue. And in Under Skull Mountain II, don't become Juggernaught immediatly. There is a narrow space you can fit in that...does something. I think it takes you to Elsewhere. Either way, there are probably more diamond, lives, and whatnot there.


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Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2006, 05:22:07 pm »
ah man I wish I could get in on this...I haven't played in a while, but I still remember a few things.  then again it might be unfair if I got in as this is more about freshness than anything.  love to see this game get beaten if it does (just dont get lost in World 4 if you guys make it).

Also I never beat it myself...make it to the 1st stage in world 4 and its just over from there no matter what teleporter I take.
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Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2006, 05:26:06 pm »
Quote from: genus
Thorn: you have to unzip it first with Winrar.
I know, WinRAR refuses to open it.  A message box won't tell me why, it just says Error: Cannot open (filepath). *has thought*
Wait, now it suddenly works.  For some reason, during the DL, Run crashed WinRAR, but saving it and then opening it worked.  I figure I'll post that in case anyone else has that problem.

Also I don't understand why you'd work hard to make the first few levels easier for yse, as with savestating he can just play until he's satisfied (and despite being hard to use in USI1, Cyclone is still fun that early in the game).  I can't argue, though, I hate Dragonspike, The Pinnacle and Stormwalk Mountain and would love to not hafta do one of those due to your setup.

Also Shadow Jacky, I doubt there'd be a problem if you jumped in now, There's a few people here who know the game well, and we need them to set up their run's endings well for the next players.
<RPGnutter> Well I think your reasoning was dumb, so you get sassed
<RPGnutter> Thats how it works

Offline PsyBorg

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2006, 05:32:55 pm »
I may or may not be able to do this for reasons stated in the chat. All I have to do is convince my dad to do stuff.
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2006, 07:44:47 pm »
Ok, save stated and input recorded. Check out both below.

I almost got you stuck with Eyeclops in Elsewhere twice. That would have been an interesting turn of events.

Also I hit almost every prize block and got all (relevant) prizes. Yay.

The only thing I messed up was the no-hit bonuses. iirc, I only got them in Blue Lake I and Highwater pass. Our current situation is:

Lives:8
Continues:6 (I remembered another in Elsewhere)

And now it's...mike's turn!

ps use the teleporters in Under Skull Mountain III if you don't use the cannon blocks properly and can't complete a portion of the level.


I HOPE YOU DO

Offline Thorn

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Re: Group Playthrough
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2006, 08:43:49 pm »
Okay, it was decided in chat that using .giz along with saves is stoopid.  And yse claims that he can't record right now, so look back at the level setup to see it with Cherry , douglas, and I pushed to an earlier spot.

Gens Movie is the way to go now (if you don't have version 9J, DL it from the link).  In the menus, TAS Tools | Movie | Play movie/Resume record from savestate to begin.  At the end of your run, save BEFORE you end the AVI, so that it stays all synched up.  We can edit the AVI, but not the saves so much.
<RPGnutter> Well I think your reasoning was dumb, so you get sassed
<RPGnutter> Thats how it works

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