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Messages - Don

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61
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 04, 2014, 03:06:17 pm »
I am sorry if I made this topic unbearable for everybody by bringing up points that are not the case here.
I just wanted to make sure that people remember that not everyone on TSC is a hard-ass competitor that will do everything for a stat, I am very well aware that there's all kinds of people on here that use either Emulators, Consoles or both.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be happy with a regulation such as the one that Parax offered.

62
Yeah, the zone selection hurts if you want to do a certain IL.

There are games where you can't specifically choose acts (such as S1GG) that are acceptable for submission, though.

63
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 04, 2014, 10:09:40 am »
Let me just remind you: BSing is also possible without any kind of emulation. While TASing is probably not, the issue here still lies that this rule indicate that a few certain people have made an entire usergroup untrustworthy, which I think is unfair.

So if suddenly 20 console users bullshit all of their stats, does that mean all console users are untrustworthy?

The answer is: No. We should either go about it by a case-by-case basis, we've talked about all of this BEFORE and arrived at a stalemate. I'm offering compromises, but you all think that people will be too "targeted" with the ban of all emulators, but you acknowledge wanting to target a certain usergroup anyway.

Clearly, this is all just a discussion about convenience at this point. We're arguing convenience of all emulator users compared to convenience for the top percentage of people that compete, and either rarely use emulators or heavily depend on them.

All I'm saying is that if you want to impose a rule on an entire community just because of some black sheep, we can just force people to post proof for everything.


64
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 04, 2014, 09:44:24 am »
See, the thing is I don't CARE about specific people. It's something that affects the whole site - EVERYONE. Get that in your head. You are not targetting specific people or thinking about the consequences for every single competitor. That's what I think this rule lacks.

65
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 04, 2014, 09:01:14 am »
My reasoning is this: This site's competition is on a trust system.

Making emulator-users submit proof for every single of their submission means you do not trust emulator users.

Banning emulators means you do not trust emulators.

The question is: What is the real issue here? IF you don't trust emulators to emulate correctly, there are two options:

Outright ban all emulators, or just certain ones that cannot be trusted to be used correctly.


I just think it's wrong to only target specific people with proof-submissions. If you want a site with serious competition, you should either go all out or just leave it at the semi-serious half casual competition it is right now, with like 80-90% of the users being inactive or not good at any specific games.

EDIT: If you want to change the site, I would say you should upset more people than just emulator users. If everyone is at least partially upset, you're not picking favourites.

66
Okay, so I've been thinking about this: According to Parax reasoning, which is "If the game lags for everyone the same on standardized hardware, it's allowed." We should allow S1GBA for competition.


1) WHY?!

First off, we have Sonic 1 and Sonic 1 2013 as charts. S1-13 looks like a different enough game to warrant different and other charts.

Now, why does S1GBA not have different charts? My arguments:

1) It has anniversary and classic mode, in which sonic may or may not use spindash.

2) The Physics are completely different compared to sonic 1, there is no spike glitch, the maps look a little more compressed, you can hit the final zone boss twice (!!) when he comes out of the woodwork.

3) It has a different game-feel overall, different tricks, there are no possible zips. The Level Select does not allow you to go to specific levels or special stages, just the beginning of a zone.


Charts that I think should be included:

Anniversary mode - Times
Anniversary mode - Rings
Classic mode - Times
Classic mode - Rings

(Special Stages - rings)


The reason why I don't think special stages should be included, is because  they go TOO fast, but that might be just me and others could have a different opinion on this.

EDIT: Because I was in an IRL hurry before creating this post, let me add this now: Scores are unreliable because not all enemies spawn at every stage of the game. I've encountered many enemies that spawned at some instances but not in others (mostly in labyrinth zone, the laggiest zone of the game).

67
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 04, 2014, 07:22:28 am »
Okay I have re-thought about this, and I personally would approve of either of these:

1) Console and Emulator proof are a must for all stats. (if we go the competetive route)

2) No proofs are needed, but are welcome for both.

3) Ban Emulators as a whole. (compromise between 1) and 2).

The reason why I am for this is because it will allow people to have a level playing field; either everyone has to submit proof or use normal consoles, or use both emulators or consoles without having to be inconvenienced by relentless proof submissions.

I just don't think that a half-assed rule that will stop casual competition ANYWAY should be taken into account, simply because it is not a good solution. As I've stated before, I am mostly playing on console myself, so I think if what you really want is serious competition, Emulators shouldn't be allowed.

In case that would happen, we should probably take charts into account that are mostly emulated (like sonic pocket adventure) and look whether or not it's worth keeping them around.

EDIT: Yes, I mean all emulators. Including BlueStacks, as well as emulators that emulate the Neo Geo Pocket colour.

68
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 03, 2014, 02:26:30 pm »
Obviously such evidence will only be brought once the rule is there, that's why people are trying to prevent it. This is really the first rule change that I'm trying to stop, so I don't know how it usually goes. I do not want to call people out on this, because this is a decision they have made for themselves.

I for one would probably stop competing here, just because the rule is not part of my personal mentality. I can assure you I wouldn't have tried to play Sonic 1 or Sonic Advance if I would've had to record every single stat i've made, and in general, I just find it unfair that emulator is instantly chained towards BSing. The Mentality of the whole site will indubitably change, if we accept a rule such as the one proposed in this thread.

69
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 03, 2014, 02:13:08 pm »
"the main goal of thia rule is to protect the hardcore competitor"

I don't think that is the case, but you and I have no right to say anything about "hardcore competitors". We really should talk about a case-by-case basis for emulators, rather than talking about all of them at once, or just disregard this rule as a whole. As far as I know, TSC has been able to track down most if not all of the BSers, given enough time, so I don't think a rule like this is necessary.

It will only inconvenience people more, the half-casual competition will COMPLETELY stop; I've talked to some undead TSCers that said they will probably not come back if this rule stays. And to bring up one of my earlier points, the proof that will be gotten by the rest of the competition will be 95% useless, because not everyone is going to BS and there is no one that is even willing to look at proof nowadays. I mean, a few months ago when Thorn wanted to leave, nobody even cared about COMPETITION, and the only thing that was talked about was bullshitting.




70
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:03 pm »
I think your Logic is faulty, TimpZ. If you know you're working towards getting a top percentage stat in a game, you know how good you are. Nobody whose skill is equivalent of getting a really good (maybe even record stat) on an emulator will be surprised if they actually get it. If you know you're going to compete seriously rather than casually, it will not be an issue for you to know that you should record.

You of all people know that the amount of effort that goes towards learning a game will eventually pay off, and if you don't stop until you get a record, you should very much expect getting it. If you look at just the 2D Sonics, a lot of the records are owned by a multitude of people, so you won't get a good time or record if you don't expect it.

I do approve of Aurimans idea, if someone wants to play casually, let them!

71
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 10:10:08 pm »
Parax, he's been attacking people himself, but I'm going to stop talking about this now.

So all in all, we have 4 opinions: Yes to the rule, No to the rule, enforce 3D emulators, or wait until we can get a proper solution done.

72
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 10:00:01 pm »
Your arguments are just towards 3D sonics, again. I firmly believe you want Dolphin to be removed entirely from the emulation, because it has potential to have greater inaccuracies than other competetive emulators, due to having a big amount of 3D games on the Wii/GCN platform.

Just say it directly, even though you are banned from TSC and will probably never compete here again, I do believe that as a banned member you probably now more about BSing than I do!

73
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:50:14 pm »
Maybe it was not a 'rapid' development, but you can't deny that there was some heavy things going on between the main people bringing up the argument. And Again, that was the reason why barely anyone took part in that discussion, as it feels rather... personal between those two guys.

Alas, as previously stated, that was not what I intended to be taken into consideration. I was trying to emphasize the fact that TSC should be trying to find a solution together. Or at least, with more people rationally talking about it as a team rather than as individuals.

74
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:37:55 pm »
I think we should do the thing that ~Thorn~ said in his retirement/return post. Delegate work. Administrate. Get more people to work on the site, get more intel on the emulators, work out a solution with the competitors. Just overall more people to work on the problems that are evident, and get more information overall in order to work towards getting a satisfying solution. And building a team that can enforce a solution that is made by most, if not all, of the community.

I know that this might be too much, but i do not think that rapid decisions in a heated conversation with 2 people will warrant enough to change how the site works.

75
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:25:10 pm »
Again flim flam, the idea here would be testing out emulators. In your case you strongly are against Dolphin because there's 2 instances in which the emulation does not go correctly and gives you an edge. We're talking about full scale emulation here. ALL emulators. I feel like making a case against certain emulators would be a better start and would lead to a better solution.

76
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:22:28 pm »
This doesn't 100% prevent BS calls, no, but the idea is if someone's stats are called into question, there is a lot more material to work with to identify whether a stat is legitimate or not.

You could say that about any supposedly stat gotten on a console. I truely believe that proof should be either enforced completely, or be on a voluntary basis. People that want to show their aptitude at sonic games will do so.

77
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:09:20 pm »
I feel there are too many loopholes for this, and that some people do not have the time, money or effort to put into getting the hardware to actively avoid having to use emulators, or recording them.

Saying "emulators need proof" is nonsensical, because we've already had various threads where somebody posted a proof-video where we could not even see that he TASed. Proof like that can still be abused, you can still do things you shouldn't be able to and nobody would know any better.

As for the implementation: Who is going to look at all the proof? We've had some instances of bad proof, where we only found out a stat was invalid because some TSC individual randomly decided to look through proof. You would need to dedicate manpower towards just looking at proof, which at this point, you don't even look at.

Another thing is all you have to say is "I got it on console." and all would be well; no proof needed. Of course people are still going to suspect something, but they cannot actively call BS on somebody who maybe faked 1 or 2 stats. This is not going to solve anything, except making people show more effort for stats that could be believed to have been gotten legitimately.

Lastly, I feel it's too late to make a rule like that now that is only forced on ALL emulators. If anything we should look at certain emulators and evaluate whether or not they should be banned individually, or make a different rule entirely for individual Emulators.

78
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 07:20:53 pm »
The reason why I did not provide such an example because there is none. I would have no problems following the new rules myself, as I keep saying.

I do firmly believe that PCs that are worse than mine are going to have serious trouble with emulating and recording at the same time, however, so I am just speaking up. Not EVERYONE has a good enough PC for that, believe me.

My other issue here, at this moment, is that everything said and done about this feels like an indirect way to force everyone to abide by new rules, just because there have been small issues in the past where BS Calls have been taking ages to be finished, or even made.

This is not a natural solution, this is not a logical solution, there is no reason as to why I would accept this without any reasoning, aside from the threads I've already talked about.

And I DO think that these threads are relevant here, because that is ALL information on recent topics about this.

79
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 07:02:51 pm »
Again, you're going away from the actual issue here. I AM NOT suffering under this rule, others are. My problem with this is that the indication made by flim_flam, which is Dolphin should be banned, shouldn't result in "all emulators need proof". The process makes no sense. That is the only recent topic on this, other than the SDM vs TimpZ (TAS emulator bans) topics.

I am going to straight up say it again: Not everyone has a powerful enough computer to record emulators. If you are unable to read this or skim this TimpZ, I am going to assume you just have no interest talking about what I'm bringing up. If you have any BS call to make, make your case. If you don't trust someone, speak to people and do something.

And lastly, saying all other stats that have already been submitted dont need to be reinvestigated is pure poppycock and if you really want to make a change such as this, it should be something you should think about. This is borderline nepotism to say that all other stats are gonna stay the way they are just not to offend all the other competitors that are not going to suffer from this rule.

This is not ABOUT ME, this about saying all emulators are untrustworthy. Not all of them are untrustworthy, not all emulators emulate inaccurately enough to warrant a ban or forcing proof.

80
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:44:19 pm »
My reasoning here is that I have a low-tier Windows 7 PC. We're not talking just about using genesis emulators which I could record. We're talking about all emulators here. For the record: All of my sonic colours videos are in 30 FPS because my PC is too bad to record in 60.

I couldn't even record SA2B at 60 FPS (PC Version); I can stream it at 30 FPS to twitch and have next to no slowdowns. The thing is about processing power for everyone that uses emulators. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean you're gonna have the best PC available, or even a good PC at all; I'm just saying if we're gonna call out someone, make a rule about using non-TAS emulators. Make the rule of banning Dolphin and all 3D Sonic emulators that are inaccurate.

My problem here is that we had discussions about this but we always arrived at a stalemate and a small vendetta between you and SDM, but that's beside the point.

The case I want to make here is that Emulators are not the thing, it's the people. If you want to make BS calls, make BS calls. That's how this site has worked until now.

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

81
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:27:06 pm »
So Parax, what is your take on this after reading all of this? Clearly this will not change unless Parax or another admin finds a better solution, a more accurate solution, we go back to the old or keep this. I just want to see the general idea behind this; flim_flam_bsdetector said that there were old threads? How old? Where? Can I even access them?

I want that everyone here being able to see the reasoning behind this decision, and if it is, at all, possible that we can still change this to a more accurate rule.

82
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 06:08:19 pm »
This is not about the legitimacy of the stats. Clearly, if you have a method to record your stat and want to prove your legitimacy, go ahead. The only problem I see here is that there are people that have legitimate problems recording on emulator, which would kill their competition. Also, why would we trust ANYONE at this point that they have gotten their stat fair and square if all they have to say "I got this on console."

Why even trust people? Either you enforce complete proof, which will make all people unhappy, or let it be. I do not think we accomplish anything except offending half of the competition that can't record anything because of their hardware.

Last thing, Werey, you're talking about "ME". Clearly, just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't mean others will not have an issue.

83
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 05:59:12 pm »
Okay, one more thing:

We were talking about ALL emulators at first. Now it's just things on Dolphin? Clearly, all those would be emulated on dolphin, aside from SADX, SA2B and Heroes having a PC version, anyway.

True, I could use a camera. Chances are, if I don't have money for a good PC, why would I make a crappy video with a 20 dollar phone I got? Again, the issue here isn't that Emulators are not trustworthy. I still find it very... shifty that all information on the forums are "Hey I found this inaccurate time" on the LD leads to "let's enforce proof on all emulators". The process is not clear to me so I want clarification. You've been beating around the bush, but I can see where you're going. Please, answer honestly.

Do you want Dolphin to be banned?

84
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 05:31:37 pm »
to put this in a extreme perspective it would kinda be like allowing a slighty polished version of s1 gba to be permitted.

It is. It's called S1-13.

Seriously though, the issue here is that emulators are EASY to use. Recording programs use a LOT MORE resources than Genesis emulators for example. This is not an issue with just dolphin, in fact, all emulators are affected. Even easy to use emulators that ANY computer can use, even windows XP old style versions.

85
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 03:46:44 pm »
Okay. SO I WILL go in here and question this entire rule. First off, how can a discussion between two people on TSC lead to... this? I mean think about it. A month or two ago we had a discussion about banning emulators, which was basically just a huge discussion with no agreement. NOW, some guy called flimsy bsdetector goes ahead, finds a small emulator difference in Sonic Colours (Emulator: Dolphin), and a rule towards all emulators is made?

I will quote Parax from the first thread that had a discussion about this: "Honestly though, how far should we go in requesting proof from people? Although we strive to keep the charts as legitimate as possible, ultimately there's so many different ways people can cheat that there's no way we could safeguard against all of them." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition, Date 20.01.2014]

People could just lie about not using emulators, first of all, and get away with it.
Either you force all people for proofs, none, or ban emulators that are known to have even the smallest differences in gameplay. There can be no middleground.

HOW can talking about a single emulator result in enforcing a rule on ALL emulators? I thought that was the whole reason the [Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition] Thread failed to get to an agreement in the first place?

Now, I am someone who rarely uses emulators. I will likely NOT be, under any circumstance, having to submit proof. Except for 1 or 2 stats where I have to use the japanese version of Sonic 1.

I just want to know how this rule came to be and when this was decided. Or if this is the start of the "overhaul of the entire site and all its policies." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition]

This is just so sudden i thought this was an april fools joke. It literally came out of almost nowhere, except for that one thread about Dolphin not emulating correctly. Instead if we just ban Dolphin, and have people look at other emulators and if they emulate correctly enough, there is no reason for that nonsense.

86
Competition Central / Re: Emulator Proof Thread
« on: April 02, 2014, 01:55:04 pm »
I'm pretty sure i can record from my Fusion364 with the Kega Fusion video codec. I've done it before, but I haven't gotten a stat with it so i haven't submitted any stats or videos from that one. Under the Video > Log AVI file option.

87
hi

88
TSC Race Night / Re: Race Night 57: Sonic R
« on: February 15, 2014, 10:45:17 am »
Could you please change my vote to 100% no OoB? I feel like racing a little longer today, actually.

89
TSC Race Night / Re: Race Night 57: Sonic R
« on: February 08, 2014, 06:15:32 pm »
any% no oob

flying fox edit: see reply 13

90
Okay, so here's an even weirder thing:

There are emulators on hacked consoles. You can't TAS on them; does that mean they would be a viable alternative to computer emulators? Or do we have to do experiments for that?

I mean, let's not forget: Windows is not the only system that supports emulation of another system. For Example: I could emulate Sonic Advance on my Wii because i have the necessary emulator. It's a different kind of VBA, but it's on console so it's functions are VERY, VERY limited.

Obviously that kind of alternative would require another, different console. It's an alternative none the less, if you don't have the actual game but want to compete, isn't it?

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