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31
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 03, 2014, 12:19:56 pm »Back when I was a more active competitor, I did most of my competition on morning commutes. In addition to my Nintendo DS and Gameboy Advance, I would play some other games using emulators on my PSP.
I'm not very familiar with the PSP one in particular but aren't homebrew console emulators generally really laggy and not well-optimized? In that case being discouraged from using it actually seems like a good thing.
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having time sleeping on it I wanted to make a suggestion that we only make video mandatory when a WR is achieved? ( or maybe top 3 or top 5)
This seems like a decent compromise if enough people are on board with it. (oh the irony, having to compromise on a compromise)
32
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 10:06:51 pm »
Don, please don't make personal accusations like that. It is irrelevant what you think he actually wants when that's not what he's arguing for. Further, he's banned from the forums, not from competition, and I've been willing to overlook his bandodging for the time being because he's actually had some valid points to make and been posting pretty reasonable stuff. Turning this discussion into little personal needles and accusations is not productive.
33
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:45:28 pm »It's like saying all speedrunners are super nerdy people with glasses fitting inside of one single category and play one single game.
???????
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I know that this might be too much, but i do not think that rapid decisions in a heated conversation with 2 people will warrant enough to change how the site works.
Did you miss the part where I posted about this two months ago? This was not a rapid decision that came about from a heated conversation between 2 people. At all.
34
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:30:42 pm »
I am open to better solutions. Emulators are not my area of expertise at all. I've been trying to implement these changes based on feedback from the community and discussions on the forum/IRC. If a lot of people think this is a poor solution, I'm open to better ones.
A lot of people thought there needed to be changes, and I agree to some extent. I've seen tons of instances recently where people post stats that were done on emulators while the game wasn't running at full speed. I've also seen a lot of instances recently where someone tried to pass off an emulated run as a TAS. Emulators are incredibly messy and overall shitty for competition, but enough people rely on them that I didn't think shutting them out entirely was the way to go.
So if we don't do this what should we do instead?
Also, apologies for springing this on everyone. Yeah, I posted this a good two months ago, but I realize I probably should have posted a thread warning that the change was going to be implemented in, say, a week. For the time being, I've removed the rule so we can have a discussion about it first.
A lot of people thought there needed to be changes, and I agree to some extent. I've seen tons of instances recently where people post stats that were done on emulators while the game wasn't running at full speed. I've also seen a lot of instances recently where someone tried to pass off an emulated run as a TAS. Emulators are incredibly messy and overall shitty for competition, but enough people rely on them that I didn't think shutting them out entirely was the way to go.
So if we don't do this what should we do instead?
Also, apologies for springing this on everyone. Yeah, I posted this a good two months ago, but I realize I probably should have posted a thread warning that the change was going to be implemented in, say, a week. For the time being, I've removed the rule so we can have a discussion about it first.
35
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 09:17:17 pm »
I don't really understand why someone would lie and claim they got an emulated stat on console, instead of just submitting the stat without getting it at all, which is a loophole that TSC's system has had for a decade. It's not even an issue of faked proof there because they'd be doing it specifically to avoid posting proof.
This doesn't 100% prevent BS calls, no, but the idea is if someone's stats are called into question, there is a lot more material to work with to identify whether a stat is legitimate or not. It's one thing when we're just working with someone saying "I got X time" or posting a YouTube video or something, and it's another when we actually have an input file to analyze. Having more material available will make it more difficult to BS.
This doesn't 100% prevent BS calls, no, but the idea is if someone's stats are called into question, there is a lot more material to work with to identify whether a stat is legitimate or not. It's one thing when we're just working with someone saying "I got X time" or posting a YouTube video or something, and it's another when we actually have an input file to analyze. Having more material available will make it more difficult to BS.
36
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 08:58:28 pm »
I just want to point out that I suggested this rule a good two months ago in the thread about banning all emulators and everyone in the thread seemed to agree with it, except HyperSonic. Just about everyone in there seemed to be insistent that things needed to change, and most of them seemed to be satisfied with this compromise... So yes, this -was- discussed publicly first, and did not just all of a sudden come about because of the stuff s&a posted about Dolphin.
Here is the thing I don't get. Why should this rule seriously impact anyone? It's not even about how fast your CPU is or etc, the fact about it is it only applies to emulators. If you really, really can't record your stats for whatever reason, you still have the option of playing on an official release. You can get a ton of the classic games on Steam, or Virtual Console, or Mega Collection, you can play the GameGear games on the 3DS VC or on SADX, you can get both of the Sonic Adventures on 360/ps3/pc, etc. There's a lot of options. You are perfectly allowed to get stats and not post proof for them if you're playing on an official release.
And of course, you're perfectly allowed to use emulators, too. There are just stricter proof standards now.
Those who are against it, taking this into consideration, why is this such a big problem to you?
Here is the thing I don't get. Why should this rule seriously impact anyone? It's not even about how fast your CPU is or etc, the fact about it is it only applies to emulators. If you really, really can't record your stats for whatever reason, you still have the option of playing on an official release. You can get a ton of the classic games on Steam, or Virtual Console, or Mega Collection, you can play the GameGear games on the 3DS VC or on SADX, you can get both of the Sonic Adventures on 360/ps3/pc, etc. There's a lot of options. You are perfectly allowed to get stats and not post proof for them if you're playing on an official release.
And of course, you're perfectly allowed to use emulators, too. There are just stricter proof standards now.
Those who are against it, taking this into consideration, why is this such a big problem to you?
37
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 11:50:40 am »
Yeah, obviously a savestate should be included. As for emulators without recording functionality, I suppose a regular old video would suffice in that case?
I'm far from an expert on emulators, just trying to put this together based on feedback I'm getting from you guys, so any input on better ways to go about doing this is welcome.
I'm far from an expert on emulators, just trying to put this together based on feedback I'm getting from you guys, so any input on better ways to go about doing this is welcome.
38
News and Updates / Re: New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 02, 2014, 12:14:29 am »
Official emulators are fine.
39
News and Updates / New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 01, 2014, 11:47:45 pm »
Following a discussion in the forums a little while ago, we've implemented some new rules regarding emulators. From now on, stats achieved on emulators are required to have proof. Since there's no function to upload proof directly to the site as of right now, instead we're requesting that you upload your proof somewhere and link to it through your stat comment. In accordance, I've created a thread where you can attach your proof files to a forum post, but if you'd like to upload elsewhere instead, that's fine.
There are a couple reasons for this change. First, it's been shown time and time again that emulators make it significantly easier to cheat. When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult. Second, emulators are not perfect and sometimes have accuracy issues that might be difficult to pick up on. With proof available, it gives all competitors an opportunity to verify for themselves that the stats they're competing against were accomplished fairly, without any unfair advantages caused by inaccurate emulation.
I also want to highlight one other somewhat recent rule. It's not new, but I think it's worth emphasizing. If you can't run the game at full speed, your stat is void. Don't submit it. If your emulator is lagging, at best, you will gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with. At worst, it can make the game behave differently than it would otherwise and give you an unfair advantage. Either way, it's not acceptable.
These rules are kind of a middle ground between leaving things the way they were before and banning emulators (or at least some emulators) entirely. Hopefully this will help make competition more fair to everyone.
If you notice any emulated stats that are in violation of the rules, let an admin know (me, Thorn, or Zeupar) and we'll handle it.
edit: I should add that stats already on the charts without proof will be grandfathered in, because I don't think anyone wants to dig through 10 years of stats and suspend all of the ones that don't have proof.
iOS and Android titles are exempt from this rule because the performance of the game can vary by a lot even when it's not being emulated.
There are a couple reasons for this change. First, it's been shown time and time again that emulators make it significantly easier to cheat. When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult. Second, emulators are not perfect and sometimes have accuracy issues that might be difficult to pick up on. With proof available, it gives all competitors an opportunity to verify for themselves that the stats they're competing against were accomplished fairly, without any unfair advantages caused by inaccurate emulation.
I also want to highlight one other somewhat recent rule. It's not new, but I think it's worth emphasizing. If you can't run the game at full speed, your stat is void. Don't submit it. If your emulator is lagging, at best, you will gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with. At worst, it can make the game behave differently than it would otherwise and give you an unfair advantage. Either way, it's not acceptable.
These rules are kind of a middle ground between leaving things the way they were before and banning emulators (or at least some emulators) entirely. Hopefully this will help make competition more fair to everyone.
If you notice any emulated stats that are in violation of the rules, let an admin know (me, Thorn, or Zeupar) and we'll handle it.
edit: I should add that stats already on the charts without proof will be grandfathered in, because I don't think anyone wants to dig through 10 years of stats and suspend all of the ones that don't have proof.
iOS and Android titles are exempt from this rule because the performance of the game can vary by a lot even when it's not being emulated.
40
Competition Central / Emulator Proof Thread
« on: April 01, 2014, 11:30:24 pm »
From now on, stats performed on an emulator are required to have proof attached to them, in the form of an emulator movie file. This thread exists to make the process a bit easier. Simply make a post here, with whatever files you need attached to your post, then link it in your stat comment. If you'd rather upload it somewhere else, that's fine too; this thread is just one option.
Reminder of the rules regarding emulators:
- If you do anything on the emulator that can't be replicated on console, your stat is void. This includes emulator functions like save states and frame advance, but it also includes in-game behavior that can't be replicated on console.
- If you/your emulator can't consistently run the game at full speed (usually 60 FPS) without frame drops, your stat is void.
Remember that you can attach multiple files to one post, so please do that where possible using the modify button to cut down on spam a little. Also, please say in your post what game/stat the movie is for and what emulator you used to achieve it.
Hopefully in the future we can have a system more nicely integrated into the site, but for now this is what we've got.
Reminder of the rules regarding emulators:
- If you do anything on the emulator that can't be replicated on console, your stat is void. This includes emulator functions like save states and frame advance, but it also includes in-game behavior that can't be replicated on console.
- If you/your emulator can't consistently run the game at full speed (usually 60 FPS) without frame drops, your stat is void.
Remember that you can attach multiple files to one post, so please do that where possible using the modify button to cut down on spam a little. Also, please say in your post what game/stat the movie is for and what emulator you used to achieve it.
Hopefully in the future we can have a system more nicely integrated into the site, but for now this is what we've got.
41
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: April 01, 2014, 11:16:57 pm »
Fair enough, that particular stat is suspended.
For now, I'm going to implement the rule we decided on a while ago about proof being mandated for stats performed on emulator. The issue with Dolphin you noticed only happens when the game lags, which is already against the rules, so having this rule in place should make it much easier to pick out when issues like this come up.
If these sort of issues continue cropping up even with that rule in place, then we'll revisit the idea of banning some emulators entirely. I think it'd be nice to see how this works out first though.
For now, I'm going to implement the rule we decided on a while ago about proof being mandated for stats performed on emulator. The issue with Dolphin you noticed only happens when the game lags, which is already against the rules, so having this rule in place should make it much easier to pick out when issues like this come up.
If these sort of issues continue cropping up even with that rule in place, then we'll revisit the idea of banning some emulators entirely. I think it'd be nice to see how this works out first though.
42
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: April 01, 2014, 10:54:09 pm »
Yes, because clearly one day is an absolutely unacceptable turnaround time for considering as large a rule change as the one you're requesting.
43
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: March 31, 2014, 12:41:29 am »Why is a good chunk of the community against banning emulators?
A lot of people are used to playing on emulator, either because they don't have easy access to the original consoles or because they like the convenience of playing on PC. I can imagine some games like the GameGear titles for instance might get barely any competition at all if emulators were banned entirely.
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It looks like Dolphin is lagging from the sheer amount of stuff going on (obviously slowing down the timer), while the Unlimited Colors prompt shows up at a fixed time after Eggman's last speech.
Wasn't there already a rule that required emulators to run the game at full speed to be acceptable for submission?
That's interesting. Can anyone verify whether this still happens if the game runs at full speed?
44
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: March 30, 2014, 11:54:58 pm »
Honestly I agree. I'd be in favor of outright banning all emulators, because ease of cheating aside, there's all sorts of little inaccuracies like this that are too difficult to reasonably expect people to notice. I think a good chunk of the community is very very against that though.
Technically there's already a general rule covering this:
That obviously doesn't help when the inaccuracies are small enough that no one notices them, though.
Worth noting Dolphin in particular is known to be inaccurate in ways that may or may not actually affect Sonic games. Specifically, it doesn't correctly emulate load times. That's significant for games like Metroid Prime 2 where some glitches depend on being able to get into position before a room loads; playing on Dolphin makes those glitches much harder to execute.
So maybe the solution is to verify that this is an emulation issue with Dolphin, and then ban it from competition until the inaccuracies are fixed? It seems a lot of peoples' PCs aren't quite good enough to run games in Dolphin at full speed yet anyway.
Technically there's already a general rule covering this:
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* You may use any emulator for competition; however, any action performed during the run (be it an in-game action or use of an emulator function) that cannot be replicated on console voids your stat.
That obviously doesn't help when the inaccuracies are small enough that no one notices them, though.
Worth noting Dolphin in particular is known to be inaccurate in ways that may or may not actually affect Sonic games. Specifically, it doesn't correctly emulate load times. That's significant for games like Metroid Prime 2 where some glitches depend on being able to get into position before a room loads; playing on Dolphin makes those glitches much harder to execute.
So maybe the solution is to verify that this is an emulation issue with Dolphin, and then ban it from competition until the inaccuracies are fixed? It seems a lot of peoples' PCs aren't quite good enough to run games in Dolphin at full speed yet anyway.
45
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: March 30, 2014, 09:10:23 pm »
Right, but have you actually tested it? In other words have you tried doing it on Dolphin yourself to see if you could replicate it or figure out the conditions that cause it to happen?
46
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: Now what do we do?
« on: March 30, 2014, 08:50:04 pm »
Oh I see what you mean. Strange. It'd be good to have more information on why this happens before making a decision about it though imo. How extensively have you tested it?
48
Rules Revisions / Re: SU 360-PS3, CE 2 Day Infinite Rings Glitch
« on: March 26, 2014, 11:28:52 pm »
This was found ages ago back when the game first came out and is the exact reason why there's no Cool Edge 2 rings chart. You don't need D-speed or break jump to do it, either...
49
Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: Brainstorm
« on: March 26, 2014, 11:25:16 pm »
What platform/emulator did you do all your runs on so far?
50
General Sonic / Re: Sonic Unleashed Score Attack Strats Resuming
« on: March 25, 2014, 03:50:57 am »
...even if you missed the rule, I'm kinda confused how you could have thought that was okay given it's an obvious infinite score exploit. You could blow your last score out of the water by just going off the ramp over and over for an hour.
But oh well I guess
But oh well I guess
51
Rules Revisions / Re: Sonic Colours Egg Shuttle IL times
« on: March 19, 2014, 05:41:41 pm »
Removed off-topic shitposts. Probably a good idea not to make those.
I've updated the rule to add an exception for Tropical Resort 1, and that's as much as I'm willing to change here. This can get really messy and confusing far too easily.
I've updated the rule to add an exception for Tropical Resort 1, and that's as much as I'm willing to change here. This can get really messy and confusing far too easily.
52
Rules Revisions / Re: Sonic Colours Egg Shuttle IL times
« on: March 18, 2014, 07:44:35 pm »
^ Yeah, basically what SDM said is my thoughts on it. I guess we can add an exception for TR1, but I'm not touching the rest of it.
53
Rules Revisions / Re: Sonic the Fighters Rule Clarification
« on: March 07, 2014, 10:29:42 pm »
I think that general rule is more to handle things like loopholes. This seems like the kind of case where it's important to fix the rule regardless at any rate, because it's not a situation where one thing is obviously wrong, but rather the rule is worded strangely enough that it's a bit confusing to tell what settings you're actually supposed to be using.
It'd be good to hear from some StF players on this.
It'd be good to hear from some StF players on this.
54
Rules Revisions / Re: Sonic the Fighters Rule Clarification
« on: March 06, 2014, 11:30:25 am »
I have no knowledge of Sonic the Fighters whatsoever. I haven't done anything about this because I'm waiting for the community to come to a consensus on what the rule should say, which it seems to me hasn't happened yet.
55
Leaderboard Disputes / ATTN: Dale2e1
« on: February 25, 2014, 05:38:04 pm »
Please provide proof of your two Sonic Heroes boss submissions:
* Egg Hawk (Dark) - 0:12.24
* Robot Storm (Dark) - 2:25.00
Acceptable proof can be in the form of either a video showing your run of these stages or a screenshot of the stat screen on stage select.
* Egg Hawk (Dark) - 0:12.24
* Robot Storm (Dark) - 2:25.00
Acceptable proof can be in the form of either a video showing your run of these stages or a screenshot of the stat screen on stage select.
56
General Sonic / Re: Sonic Heroes: The truth about the Super Glide
« on: February 22, 2014, 09:18:07 pm »
What a shocking turn of events! I'll need to ban DsS immediately for this. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
57
Beef / Re: SAnic cRaYons
« on: February 20, 2014, 12:39:38 pm »
I didn't touch those. Unless Gerbil's been making some tweaks, they're the same as they were before.
58
Beef / Re: SAnic cRaYons
« on: February 20, 2014, 04:03:23 am »
oh, I guess I could post here
I condensed a bunch of the colors yesterday. We have six colors now:
- Default color for regular users.
- Blue for cool users (If I Had A (Ban)Hammer, Broseidon)
- Green for moderators (I Have A (Ban)Hammer)
- Red for admins (Architect/Beast/Owner of the Matrix)
- Dark red for ex-admins (Designer of the Matrix, Architect Emeritus)
- Grey for banned users
The last one prolly isn't very visible on some skins since grey is used as the default, but meh. Should be significantly less confusing colors now.
I condensed a bunch of the colors yesterday. We have six colors now:
- Default color for regular users.
- Blue for cool users (If I Had A (Ban)Hammer, Broseidon)
- Green for moderators (I Have A (Ban)Hammer)
- Red for admins (Architect/Beast/Owner of the Matrix)
- Dark red for ex-admins (Designer of the Matrix, Architect Emeritus)
- Grey for banned users
The last one prolly isn't very visible on some skins since grey is used as the default, but meh. Should be significantly less confusing colors now.
59
Hiya Folks / Re: Hi I am Biblet2014, the only speedrunner on TSC.
« on: February 17, 2014, 04:41:13 pm »
I'm not sure that title is quite accurate.
60
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 13, 2014, 02:09:02 am »Before I even begin, making exceptions for certain small games in this ruling is a partial solution within itself, and will fail. Speaking of "partial solutions" and then coming up with something like that is contradictory and detrimental to the intent of an implementation like this.
I don't believe I ever said we would create exceptions for small games. The subject came up on IRC and I wholeheartedly disagree with it. It's nonsensical.
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Firstly, this is still a very slippery slope. While I do support the fact that proving statistics is never a bad thing, I refuse to believe that "forcing" any amount of proof is the answer, or ever will be the answer. I remain of the opinion that encouraging, not forcing, proof (unless called out, of course) is the "best" answer. I'm not saying this way is perfect, either, but I do feel it can only get worse.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. It is not all that complicated to provide proof of your stats. If you're a legitimate player why not put in the tiny amount of extra effort to make sure everyone knows you followed the rules?
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If we no longer trust the players, then why should requiring proof stop here? It was said in this very topic that even consoles can be TAS'd (even if it is complicated to pull off). Then why not go all the way, just require proof for all stats? That's the biggest reason I don't support an idea like this, or any similar idea - I feel it does more harm than good, and once a requirement starts, the next thing is requiring proof for all stats, or all stats above a certain level. As much as you're about to say "That's not going to happen", it will. Sooner or later, it will.
Actually, I would like to make something like this happen in the future, but that's for another thread. Our proof standards in general are far far lower than they should be. I agree that strongly enouraging proof rather than outright requiring it is probably one of the best options as far as this is concerned, but I also think there's situations such as this one where the method used to obtain a stat is iffy enough that requiring some form of verification for it is not unreasonable.
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Let's say this was implemented. Firstly, not having proper site functionality for this would be silly - all a person has to do is say "I did this on console". Bam, done. No proof required unless said person was called out. Only problem is, there's already a rule that states something along the lines of not allowing anything done on an emulator that can't be replicated on a console, among other emulator specific rules. Since we're requiring proof for emulated stats, there's practically no way that someone can't just come in and post some good times, claim to do them on console with an official release of the game, and not have to prove a thing. Save for a person posting outright impossible times, that's the first thing people will hide behind.
This is a valid point, but there's also nothing to stop people from doing that right now. We've seen several BSers somewhat recently posting TASed videos and passing them off as console/unTASed runs. Why would they do that when they can simply submit a time without "proof" attached and be done with it? This rule is aimed to help curb those sort of situations. There are already no proof requirements, so this isn't really much of a strong argument.
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In addition, while I also believe that this is probably the "best" proof requiring idea I've seen thus far, I still must make the case of the fact that it will reduce competition (even by a little bit). Requiring anything will possibly prevent people from competing in certain games. It could stop new members from joining. It could stop existing members from competing altogether, possibly (though not likely).
I could counter that not doing it will reduce competition even further because people outside the site who would be prospective new members will be turned off by the lack of verification here along with the simplicity of posting times you didn't get. I maintain that it's really not that hard to provide proof of your emulated stats. If requiring some standard of legitimacy is enough to turn some people off from competing here, then oh well, I guess that's the price we pay.
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Next, these required proofs cannot go unchecked by the site staff. Someone, or a few people, are gonna have to do this job. While I mean absolutely no offense to the current staff (even if recent changes to said staff are about to change this next fact), the past has shown me that if we cannot properly maintain a videos section that is reasonably up to date and free of deleted, or improper, or slowed down, or outdated videos, then it follows that this will not be properly maintained as well.
The videos section is not even remotely a valid comparison. The videos section is a single page listing all videos available for a given game. The reason it's so out of date is because the system does no checks whatsoever before posting new videos, nor does it automatically obsolete old ones when better ones are posted, and the process to manually obsolete videos is a giant pain in the ass. There would be no such page for this - we'd simply request people link their proof in their stat comments. No admin maintenance required. If somebody posts a video that doesn't actually prove their stat, then somebody will probably notice and notify an admin, and in that case a BS call would be made.
It would be better to have a proper way to implement this straight into the site, but we don't have that right now. That being said, hopefully we will be able to do that in the future.
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Finally, I'm not exactly comfortable with the fact that all prior stats will simply be grandfathered in with such a ruling.
Do you have a better idea? We can't fix all the stats that are already on the site, not only because it'd be an absolutely ridiculous amount of work but also because we just plain don't have the relevant information on every stat. That doesn't mean we shouldn't implement any changes going forward, though.
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I'd be more in support of say, site implementations that allow a player to report what console or emulator they achieved a stat on when they submit, for example. I don't think that would be too much to ask for at all, at least compared to requiring proof.
I really don't see how that would help at all.
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