The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => TSC Race Night => Topic started by: flying fox on October 22, 2012, 03:57:42 pm
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I just found out that it is TSC's anniversary tomorrow. I have suggested a race tomorrow and some people are interested in it. I know it's really short notice but is anyone up for a race to celebrate it tomorrow? Not sure what game yet :/
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B-I-N-G-O and BINGO WAS ITS NAME-O
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[3:33:20 PM] Thorn: all of the Genesis / SEGA CD / 32X games in a row
[3:33:27 PM] Thorn: put a time limit of five hours
[3:33:36 PM] Thorn: most progress wins
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I have to vote for Bingo, I need repayment for the hours I spent fixing my mistakes in javascript, which means I need to play as much bingo as possible.
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I'm off tomorrow, so I could do this.
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Bingo appears to be winning. Don't know if you guys want the same time of 5pm EDT or arrange your own time between yourselves.
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5pm might be a little too early for me, i have to go in to work late tomorrow. i'll try my best to be home by 5 if that is what everyone else wants though
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Can we do Sonic Advance 2?
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Do you mean push back as in six o'clock? I have dinner then... I can only do five.
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If you can only do 5 you're probably shit out of luck anyway as bingo will probably take over an hour?
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If you can only do 5 you're probably shit out of luck anyway as bingo will probably take over an hour?
Yeah, it will
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I mean.. I don't have to be at dinner at six, as it stays open for an hour. I can't start at six though.
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Try and get something close to organised by 9am EDT tomorrow. By then I'll let you know what the game is and time for the race. At the moment bingo is winning and 6pm EDT.
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Is it okay if we start just a little bit after 6? I just need to sign in for dinner. I can microwave something later. Like 6:10?
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I'm cool with a small adjustment later like 6:10. Not much more as it will start getting too late for me.
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So just so people know what we're potentially getting into with this, Sonic bingo is a game played using multiple Sonic games (any ones you like) completing goals on a bingo grid that looks something like this (http://sonicbingo.webs.com/bingo-rev-1?seed=233007). The objective is to complete a row or column or a long diagonal of this grid. You may use a maximum of 3 different games. (Other rules are listed by the card)
By no means do you need to have every Sonic game there is, or every Sonic game on the card - you can avoid rows and columns that involve games you do not have. I do recommend you have a reasonable smattering of Sonic games, including one of SADX/SA2B and a few 2D ones, presuming that we are gong to be playing the mixed 2D/3D card (which no one has indicated otherwise).
The estimated time of completion of a normal length card is just over 2 hours.
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If nobody says anything else in an hours time I'm going to assume people are happy with bingo and having the race at 6pm EDT.
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As I told Hyper, the Bingo rules still need some refinement.
In Sonic CD, what most games call Acts are instead called Zones, with the traditional Zones called Rounds. So "Complete Quartz Quadrant Zone (Sonic CD)" allows me to finish after Zone 1 instead of the full round as intended. Likewise, Chaotix calls Acts Levels and Zones are called either Stages or Attractions, depending on where in the manual you look; the game has one Zone called Newtrogic High in which everything else takes place. This would make any "zone" request in Chaotix infeasible as the entire game would need to be played, and there wouldn't be any way to do Act challenges. Sonic Heroes has Special Stage Act 1 all the way through Act 7. Heck, Sonic Adventure calls them "Action Stages", and this name sticks around for a few games. A standard definition of a single stage or area needs to be made and explained for every possible game.
For "Obtain x Chaos Emeralds", does story progression count? If I beat Casinopolis in Sonic Adventure as Sonic or Tails, I have two Chaos Emeralds for about 30 seconds before Eggman steals one.
For "Score x points on any Act y", can Special Stages be used within the Act? Do I need to finish the act, or does it count as soon as I reach the point requirement? For "Score x points on 1 zone", do I need to finish the zone, or does it count if I finish the act in which I reach that amount, or does it count as soon as I reach the point requirement? If a game doesn't have zones, can I score a certain amount in one area of the game?
For "Get 10 S/A Ranks", if I get an A rank in a game that supports S ranks, does it still count?
If I need to collect a certain amount of rings, how do I deal with a ring counter that maxes out (Chaotix) or rolls over to 0 (many 8-bit games)?
For "Collect x rings between 2 acts of the same zone", must those two acts be consecutive, or may they be any two? In this case, must I finish the entire zone, or may I stop after my chosen second act? Likewise, does "Collect x rings between 2 zones" require two consecutive zones? If I finish this in one zone, must I play the second zone anyway?
For "Get x lives", does that mean I increase my life count from the default to x, or do I *earn* x lives and end at the default + x? Does it mean within one game, or across my three games (e.g., "Get 20 lives"; my three games start with life counts of 3, 4, and 4, and I end with 10, 15, and 6, for a total earning of 20 lives, or the same but with the initial 11 counting towards the 20)?
SRL rules say to start from the title screen for most Sonic games; do we have three title screens running at once to start, or do we boot one game at a time (i.e., two games start from powering on)?
For the "five separate bonus stages goal", S3&K has three, Chaotix has one, and Spinball has four. Thus, at least two of these games must be used (except the S3&K/Chaotix combination)... doesn't that lock in your game selection a little tightly, since you can only use three for the entire card?
SRL has game listings for several Sonic ROM hacks (my hack, MegaMix, and a broad "Sonic 1 ROM hacks" category without a matching one for Sonic 2 or 3&K); I assume that the Bingo allows official games only?
More problems to come as I see them, I'm sure...
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It might help to know what Bingo is... What is it?
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It might help to know what Bingo is... What is it?
So just so people know what we're potentially getting into with this, Sonic bingo is a game played using multiple Sonic games (any ones you like) completing goals on a bingo grid that looks something like this (http://sonicbingo.webs.com/bingo-rev-1?seed=233007). The objective is to complete a row or column or a long diagonal of this grid. You may use a maximum of 3 different games. (Other rules are listed by the card)
By no means do you need to have every Sonic game there is, or every Sonic game on the card - you can avoid rows and columns that involve games you do not have. I do recommend you have a reasonable smattering of Sonic games, including one of SADX/SA2B and a few 2D ones, presuming that we are gong to be playing the mixed 2D/3D card (which no one has indicated otherwise).
The estimated time of completion of a normal length card is just over 2 hours.
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With regards to a lot of what you say Thorn, I will say that the answer is "it's allowed until the rules say it isn't". However, there are definitely a number of points that need clarifying and I'm working on it.
1) Acts, zones and stages have now been defined in the rules in terms of what they mean in Sonic bingo. However, I will be changing the goals for Sonic CD to be clearer.
2) For now, yes, although I may disallow this as it could be open to interpreation.
3) With regards to entering special stages, until I say otherwise. I may need to define the finishing point for this goal a bit better, but it's basically as soon as the game has awarded you all the points you need, irregardless of whether you've completed the acts/zones or not.
4) For now, yes, although I may change this. The problem is people may not be aware which games have S ranks and which don't.
5) Hmm...this one needs thought. I could just make it so the number of rings the counter reads is the number you have, but that seems unfair, particularly in GG games as you will never be able to get over 100.
6) It doesn't ask for consecutive, so I don't really see this as ambiguous. Again, I would say as soon as you have the rings you're done.
7) Will change the goal to "Have X lives on the life counter". This is horifically ambiguous as it stands.
8) This one is the player's choice, because you don't actually choose the games you're going to play until after the race has started because that's when the card is given.
9) Goal changed to include special stages.
10) Rules now do not allow hacks, fangames or prototypes.
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Okay, I see the rules have been tweaked.
4. To enter a level or boss you must have completed every level or boss that comes before it in the normal chronology of the game during the run.
Therefore, if I want to play as a certain character in Advance games or Rush games (which allow starting from a non-empty save by rule 3), I must play all the acts leading up to the character's unlocking, then play as the character from the start, right? For example, if I want to play Hot Crater as Cream for whatever reason, I need to beat Leaf Forest as Sonic, then start from Leaf Forest again as Cream?
5. An act is an individual level in a 2D Sonic game. A zone is a collection of all the acts in a game with the same name (excluding the act number obviously). A stage is an individual level in a 3D game. All Generations levels are stages, classic or modern. Adventure fields, chao gardens, chao world are all not levels.
So the Acts of Sonic Colors are not acts because it is in 3D? You explicitly mention that the acts of Generations (and I assume you mean the 3D version and NOT the 2D one) are stages, but Colors is not mentioned. Also with respect to rule 5, Egg Rocket 1 and Cosmic Angel 2 are both Zone 6 in Sonic Advance, but by this rule, they are separate zones; is this what was intended?
Lastly, for "Complete 2 unique Stages/Zones each as Sonic, Tails and Knuckles", does this mean that Heroes would require six stages to be played, or two? Does "unique" count across characters or only within them?
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I think that for the Advance and Rush games, one should only have to play zones in chronological order for that character, so for SAdv2 if you wanted to play Hot Crater as Cream, you would just need to beat Leaf Forest first as Cream, not with Sonic. Also, the rules should be amended to make Colors Acts count as 3D stages, and for Egg Rocket 1 and Cosmic Angel 2 to count as two acts of the same zone.
Also Thorn, rule 7 says "Beating the same level or boss with different characters only counts as 1 'unique' level or boss, even if that level is different when using another character". However this doesn't answer the question about Heroes, but I would recommend having to run with three teams in Heroes in place of Sonic, Tails and Knux.
Sorry for poor wording, I hope this makes sense.
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I just checked the Sonic Bingo page again, and rule 8 says, "Goals requiring you to play or beat a certain character can be fulfilled by playing as or beating the team with that character in Sonic Heroes." Does this mean that you'd have to play six different stages as Team Sonic (beating two with Sonic, Tails and Knuckles as lead character respectively) to beat the "Complete 2 unique Stages/Zones each as Sonic, Tails and Knuckles" goal?
EDIT: It's been changed to rule 10, it was rule 8 when I wrote this post originally. Also this has been added to rule 6: 'Exception: Egg Rocket and Cosmic Angel in Sonic Advance are one zone'.
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Ok, I think I got the rules. Are Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Chaos, and Sonic 1 good choices?
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...you don't actually choose the games you're going to play until after the race has started because that's when the card is given.
If you choose beforehand, you're limiting yourself.
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Just thought I'd chime in to point out that if you already have 10 rules, you're probably over-complicating the whole thing~
No one wants to have to check a massive page of rules and clarifications just to make sure they aren't doing something wrong in fun (TM) event
Edit: additionally, it's a bit gimpy to state "choose any 3 games you want for this" but then have goals that actually force you to play X game.
For example, Column 2 straight up forces you to play SADX, Sonic 2 and Advance 3.
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http://sonicbingo.webs.com/bingo-rev-1?seed=502283&mode=long
I'm just going to leave this here. Four goals appear on the grid twice and the middle row is impossible as it requires four games when the competition rules only allow three.
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http://sonicbingo.webs.com/bingo-rev-1?seed=502283&mode=long
I'm just going to leave this here. Four goals appear on the grid twice and the middle row is impossible as it requires four games when the competition rules only allow three.
These problems are far worse in long (and short) cards than normal. It will be fixed as more goals are added.
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^ I'll second what Anonycat said: if you have 25 goals for each category, this should not happen under any circumstances, no matter how many goals beyond 25 you have. I feel that Bingo was launched prematurely if you don't have that many goals.
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We have about 100 goals. The fact is there is no specific code in SRL bingo v5 that prevents same goals popping up. I will attempt to add this at some point.
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1) The rules are more common sense, and are supposed to be fully comprehended before actual play. Also note that there are bingos that exceed 20 rules and are not overly complicated.
2) Short and long are by no means perfect at this point, they will get better as goals are added.
3) I concede that this bingo was launched prematurely, but this was only for testing purposes and the general reaction of people to determine whether work should be continued on it.
4) More importantly no one who is working on this bingo has ever scripted or created a bingo before, therefore perfection is not to be expected. The goal is to have fun :)
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>exceeds 20 rules
>not overly complicated
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>exceeds 20 rules
>not overly complicated
I personally disagree with your implied point
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I must say that I personally think bingo for sonic games is a bad idea and I probably won't be playing them much, if at all, at least until it has matured a lot. But if you find something new, fun and interesting then good for you.
Thorn, There's nothing wrong with the same goal appearing multiple times on the same card, that's an intended basic mechanic of the bingo. It does however prevent it from being the same goal multiple times in a single row/column/diagonal.
But until you get a system that allows you to specify which 3 games that cards are getting generated for or at least limit the card generated to a certain set of games (since it otherwise gives a huge unfair advantage due to actually owning them and/or being able to play them) and do a lot of balancing (as is always needed for new bingo's) I don't think there should be a TSC race incorporating them.
About having a lof of rules, there's nothing wrong with that but making a global rule that only applies for one or a few games is stupid. Do it right and do it like this (http://www.soniccenter.org/submit/rules).
EDIT: Alright so I thought about it a bit and the reasons I think pure Bingo aren't going to be good for racing are basically:
1. There's no real routing other than identifying goals you know can do quickly in succession, perhaps with exception to special cases.
2. Multiple games on multiple consoles
3. Sonic games aren't open ended at all. You beat one level, you go to the next and beat that.
Something I think might be interesting though is a goal generator that gives that a bit of that bingo feel. However you can't do this for multiple games in a lot of cases since they're not similar enough. I did this with S3&K since that's the game I know best myself and here's what I'm imagining:
(http://i45.tinypic.com/34od4l3.png)
Before you ask, no I didn't even try to balance it. It might be possible to do this in a crossover with Sonic 2. Something I like about this idea is that it allows for the racer to pick their character of choice.
Obviously a lot of balancing would have to be made and more kinds of restrictions/criteria's be thought up. Perhaps even more categories to make anything but "Act" to be more like a real bingo.
So yea that's just my thought on it. Of course any further comments about this idea or bingo in general should be posted in a separate thread but I'm posting it here as part of my argument.
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The race happened, by the way. 10 racers, not bad for a Tuesday night on a day's notice. Hope everyone enjoyed racing, and all critique on the bingo has been noted and will be considered and hopefully dealt with. If anyone else has anything to add then please do tell me, because I'm really keen to get this idea working as best as it could.
With regards to TimpZ's comments, I will first say that yes, the more games you own, the better, as it gives you more choices. However, if the goals were perfectly balanced (which they never will be, but we'll go for as balanced as we can) then in theory there would actually be no advantage, as as long as you could complete a single row all rows would be balanced. What I'm saying is the more balanced I make the goals, the less having more games is going to be an advantage.
I do agree that offering an option to select the games the card picks from is a good idea, but right now we're some way away from being able to offer it. This is in my future plans.
I'll also respond to your numbered points:
1) The routing is choosing which games to play, as many goals are open to multiple games. There's also figuring out in what way you're going to best achieve the goal. And of course choosing the row itself requires thought. I've made route adjustments on the fly in the last two Sonic bingos I've played, by doing all sorts of calculations while playing. It just adds a new element to simply playing through the games.
2) I agree that this is a shame, you have to sort of make do the best you can.
3) They're as open-ended as the goals allow them to be. A large part of the open-endedness in the bingo comes from choosing the games you wish to use, and planning your route accordingly.
Most importantly, a Happy 9th Birthday to TSC, and here's to many more years of being the best competitive Sonic resource on the net!
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I was going to make a post about what happened with the race but I have been busy doing other stuff and working on the race nights rotation, which should be finished very soon.
As for bingo, what I would like to do is wait till you guys have properly sorted it out, then race it again. I will then bring it up in the games to race discussions topic and see if people are interested in adding it to the list.
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Thorn, There's nothing wrong with the same goal appearing multiple times on the same card, that's an intended basic mechanic of the bingo. It does however prevent it from being the same goal multiple times in a single row/column/diagonal.
The card I linked does have a goal twice in one row. If twice NOT in a row, column, or diagonal is okay, that's fine; however, is that you saying it, or Cream147 and Keith? They responded as if it was a problem.
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Cosmo's bingo generator doesn't do an error like that so Cream must've altered the code in some way.
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Cosmo's bingo generator doesn't do an error like that so Cream must've altered the code in some way.
Wrong. Cosmo's code DOES do that if that is synergistically the best option, which right now it occasionally is.
And Thorn, it's not a problem if the same goal appears in different rows and columns in other bingos, but I'd rather they didn't in this one becaue otherwise one game might get a monopoly on the board.
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Wrong. Cosmo's code DOES do that if that is synergistically the best option, which right now it occasionally is.
All I can say is that a bingo card with the same goal in the same row/column/diagonal since v2 or v3 is unheard of. I haven't looked at the code myself but the way you describe it it might be because of the way you're adding goals, i.e. a code altering on your part.
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It's because the goals right now have a lot of synergy. On most bingos the grid generally won't have a single synergy point. With no synergy it is impossible for a duplicate to come up in the same row, because that has synergy, and the code will always try and go for the lowest synergy. In the Sonic grids, because of the way I have categorised things, there are lots of synergy points, meaning that there is a possibility of duplicates in the same row (on long and short cards only). The way to combat this will be to add more goals, which is what we are in the process of doing.