The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Competition Central => Topic started by: PimpUigi on December 28, 2010, 02:37:18 am
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It is actually the most fair to have separate lists of NTSC/PAL.
It also doubles the things you can achieve for those games where there is a speed difference.
Sonic CD has a huge difference, not only in Sonic's movement speed, and the timer, but also in the position of UFO's in the special stages.
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or you could do like the rest of us and just grab you a ROM and change it to PAL/NTSC. /thread
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^ Plus, NTSC/America Sucks. PAL/Europe is the way to go.
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Er, no.
I'm the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player.
It runs faster, takes way more skill to get good times in, and is the way the game was intended to be played.
My true feelings are that PAL play should be banned in cases of difference, but obviously that's extreme.
I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I think Europe is just as good as America, that's a poultry dilemma, neither here nor there.
But running 1/6th slower is a completely different game, and it's not fair to list both without clarifying.
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Well that's nice to people like me and all the europeans: ban the console versions for us.
Also maggot plays in NTSC doesn't he?
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Er, no.
I'm the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player.
It runs faster, takes way more skill to get good times in, and is the way the game was intended to be played.
My true feelings are that PAL play should be banned in cases of difference, but obviously that's extreme.
I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I think Europe is just as good as America, that's a poultry dilemma, neither here nor there.
But running 1/6th slower is a completely different game, and it's not fair to list both without clarifying.
>Faster NTSC player
>Not pjmaster
Are you trolling?
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Well that's nice to people like me and all the europeans: ban the console versions for us.
Also maggot plays in NTSC doesn't he?
naw unless he hops on a emulator for Special stages. You can't get those kind of times on NTSC. PAL's timer gets massive slow down so you rape times in Special stages in PAL. so they automatically get a huge ass advantage.
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I have an emulator, it's not a big deal, I did the Sonic CD special stages on it no problem. It's still not fair to list both times on one chart.
And my point is not to ban PAL times, my point is to list both NTSC and PAL times separately.
I love Europe, screw you for implying I might not.
I am the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player, not PJM.
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How about we call it 50hz vs. 60hz instead?? That explains the speed/timing difference.
I'm the fastest 60hz Sonic CD player.
I believe there should be two separate time record lists; 50hz and 60hz
This is the fair way to list records.
This also lets players do BOTH 60hz and 50hz records, rather than just doing 50hz and then being considered faster than 60hz players (which they're not, the videos of 50hz take longer to complete than 60hz)
This is fair since then both sets of players can list records, there can still be a global overall list, and no one gets a short end of any stick.
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I am the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player, not PJM.
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/overall/overall <- this says otherwise
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http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/total/acts
lol I can play that game too.
I think I would pass him in % if I were to tweak my QQ1 time, or any of the times where he's faster.
I haven't much tried to tweak my times either, so I know I can improve a lot.
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You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.
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http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_cd/times/total/acts
lol I can play that game too.
I think I would pass him in % if I were to tweak my QQ1 time.
Then do it instead of trying to fight something that will not be changed.
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You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.
...you do realize that's why I changed my wording to state 60hz and 50hz...right?
People get an emulator, and play the pal version of the rom, and the game actually runs slower.
Effectively giving them a HUGE timing advantage.
Bertin, I don't care about tweaking my times, when my total is over a minute ahead of PJM's total. I'm not just faster than him, I'm much faster than him.
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Which is like playing a PAL cart or disc on an NTSC console. It can be done in real life, so nothing is stopping it being tracked here. /thread.
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You want a timing advantage? Rapidly pause. People will hate you for it, and you probably won't get much satisfaction from time attacking, but it will make things easier.
In all seriousness, this is an issue that has been discussed many times, and it has been decided to keep the charts as they are. TAing a few levels would be much more productive than trying to fight for this.
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what I want to know is WHY ARE YOU PLAYING SONIC CD
Sonic 1-3&K are the only real Sonic games
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It's not fair to players who play 60hz to have to compete against players who play 50hz
Yeah the 60hz players can go and do 50hz too, but that doesn't prove anything other than "players need to play 50hz to get good times."
I think you're missing a lot in the world of fairness here.
It's extremely simple to list if you did something on PAL/50hz or NTSC/60hz
TAing a few levels would be much more productive than trying to fight for this.
Eh, I did all my time attacks. This has very little to do with me, and this affects more games than just Sonic CD (the only game I have times in.)
This would help fairness between all players.
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it's definitely a different concept entirely from version differences such as SA vs. SA:DX or S3 vs. S3&K levels.
pretty gay IMO
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I think you're missing a lot in the world of fairness here.
world of fairness
(http://myfacewhen.com/images/58.jpg)
Kid, the world isn't fair. Deal with it. Instead of trying to change something that most likely won't be changed, just go play and come back when you have better times.
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If everyone can go play 50 hz, then it is fair for everyone. If you choose to play 60 hz that is entirely your fault. Among the people who want to get the best times and use 50 hz, the faster people beat the slower people. There is competition, and the better people rank higher than the worse people.
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it's definitely a different concept entirely from version differences such as SA vs. SA:DX or S3 vs. S3&K levels.
pretty gay IMO
My favorite post so far.
And I know the world isn't fair.
Like how Furry's are stereotyped as (well I don't know how vulgar my language can be)
Don't even consider some furry's have wives and are normal.
Perhaps you Lux, are a normal furry.
We can make our submission lists fair though through listing 50hz vs 60hz. We're not the world. We're lucky to have this advantage over the world, and I think we should take advantage of that advantage.
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Like how Furry's are stereotyped as (well I don't know how vulgar my language can be)
Don't even consider some furry's have wives and are normal.
Perhaps you Lux, are a normal furry.
..wat is this i dont even...
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I stereotyped you based on your avatar, attitude, and sig. No worries.
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why did you start talking about furries O.o
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I'm offended, PimpUigi. Is this because I'm black?
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I stereotyped you based on your avatar, attitude, and sig. No worries.
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w226/boostballer/1269586826945-1.png)
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Plus you mean judged. Not stereotyped.
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You do realise, the only difference in playing a PAL game on a PAL console, and an NTSC game on an NTSC console, is just the game's display refresh rate right? It has nothing to do with gameplay speed.
*bzzt* Try again!
PAL games were actually so poorly programmed back in the day that they literally did run slower than their NTSC counterparts. This is a non-issue in today's games but everything before at least the N64 has this problem.
Why it doesn't make a difference for timing Sonic games is because the in-game timer is linked to the frame count, so 1 second = 60 frames, even if 60 frames does not equal 1 second. Of course special stages are different, I have no idea how that works. I guess they were aware of the issue and attempted to fix it... but screwed the timer in the other direction? (See also: PAL Sonic Chaos)
I actually think there is merit in tracking the charts that way (like how the Mario Kart site does it), but sadly TSC has done very little in the way of maintaining charts for quite some time now. :( The other thing is that of course, the difference only really matters at the very top end of skilled play, and there just aren't enough highly skilled players to justify the time investment.
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I actually think there is merit in tracking the charts that way (like how the Mario Kart site does it), but sadly TSC has done very little in the way of maintaining charts for quite some time now. :( The other thing is that of course, the difference only really matters at the very top end of skilled play, and there just aren't enough highly skilled players to justify the time investment.
Minor victory! Thank you Mike89.
This is an answer I can accept.
You're also so right, there are too few of us...
I hope when TSC starts maintaining their charts a little better that this will be something they fix.
I also hope they'll add past, bad future, and good future stages to the list of Sonic CD stages, but I think there's another topic for that.
Maybe it would help if I got on TSC IRC or something.
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Version differences are generally lumped together, and I believe they should be. Those who get to the top are the best, and are willing to do what it takes. Similarly, people who don't glitch don't have 1st times, because they aren't pushing the game.
Wanting them ranked separately would serve to drastically increase the number of available charts without likewise increasing competition, which would give rise to a problem much like the current freestyle charts, i.e. while some would compete in both, but either the stats would lose refinement or the people would lose lots of time playing levels that are quite similar in two formats.
The alternative here would be to submit the slower time in both charts(like freestyle now can accept runs where you don't turn super), as well as the faster time on it's own chart (where time difference does apply, like you can't sub a SS-time to a normal-sonic chart), which means that we'd be tracking a chart that has no competition value (the slower of the two) towards the perfection of the game as a whole. Considering this is TSC's goal, I certainly prefer this method. (TASVideo's method, as opposed to TG or SDA for ranking).
Everything you suggested has vastly negative implications, for our charts (purists only submit on half the charts (the system they own), competitors in the game only submit in half the charts (faster of the two), completionists or sitewide-competitors then get a huge amount of points just for filling up the charts and competing with others, and this category are the only people who receive a gain), for our sitewide, for our personal times (I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want to play sub-optimal versions of the game, or multiple copies of levels, etc.), for our site organization, and for our legitimacy as the unofficial competitive authority for Sonic the Hedgehog. While it does offer a single positive trait (broadness of competition), I don't believe that's all that important, practical, or useful in attaining the site goal.
Thanks for your time.
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If everyone can go play 50 hz, then it is fair for everyone. If you choose to play 60 hz that is entirely your fault.
Quoted for fucking truth. We're careful with emulators, especially after we caught a bunch of people playing Sonic Triple Trouble with 50hz settings (protip: there is no released version of that game running at 50hz). You emulate a PAL version of the game with proper settings and call it a day.
I'm the fastest NTSC Sonic CD player.
It runs faster, takes way more skill to get good times in...
Well, if you're the best at the one that takes more skill, surely you're the best at the one that takes less skill too! Thus, just play the damned PAL game already and prove it.
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Version differences are generally lumped together, and I believe they should be. Those who get to the top are the best, and are willing to do what it takes. Similarly, people who don't glitch don't have 1st times, because they aren't pushing the game.
Wanting them ranked separately would serve to drastically increase the number of available charts without likewise increasing competition, which would give rise to a problem much like the current freestyle charts, i.e. while some would compete in both, but either the stats would lose refinement or the people would lose lots of time playing levels that are quite similar in two formats.
The alternative here would be to submit the slower time in both charts(like freestyle now can accept runs where you don't turn super), as well as the faster time on it's own chart (where time difference does apply, like you can't sub a SS-time to a normal-sonic chart), which means that we'd be tracking a chart that has no competition value (the slower of the two) towards the perfection of the game as a whole. Considering this is TSC's goal, I certainly prefer this method. (TASVideo's method, as opposed to TG or SDA for ranking).
Everything you suggested has vastly negative implications, for our charts (purists only submit on half the charts (the system they own), competitors in the game only submit in half the charts (faster of the two), completionists or sitewide-competitors then get a huge amount of points just for filling up the charts and competing with others, and this category are the only people who receive a gain), for our sitewide, for our personal times (I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want to play sub-optimal versions of the game, or multiple copies of levels, etc.), for our site organization, and for our legitimacy as the unofficial competitive authority for Sonic the Hedgehog. While it does offer a single positive trait (broadness of competition), I don't believe that's all that important, practical, or useful in attaining the site goal.
Thanks for your time.
Thank you for taking the time to read my topic, and write out this well thought reply.
There is one thing I did not consider in there, and it would be completely unfair. That is, the huge amount of points you get for filling up charts.
Good point.
I don't see why if we're pushing for optimalness, and legitimacy, are we playing an inferior version of these games as the standard???
50hz isn't what the games were designed to be played at, 60hz is.
60hz is far more fun to watch, and play at. In the interest of competition (not in bragging, as some people may misconstrue) playing the harder, developer intended version means something, while playing a cheated, slowed down version shouldn't count at all.
All your paragraphs of perfect sense did was to convince me of this.
Playing a slowed down version of a game isn't pushing a game, you might as well just use the TAS stuff, since that's the same exact type of pushing a game.
If you're telling all the NTSC players they should be forced to play in 50hz, you should actually be doing the opposite, and telling all the PAL players to get an emulator, and play in 60hz.
Especially since
1. NTSC versions of the game outnumbers the PAL versions.
2. 60hz is what was intended, and originally released for I do believe, every single 16-bit Sonic game.
3. The competitive authority would obviously take the original gameplay as the standard, and see slowed down play as unfair.
PAL versions can then be used as theoreticals...especially since I seem to break many of my NTSC records within ten tries on PAL Sonic CD...
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The PAL version was an officially released version of the game, therefore it's every bit as legitimate as the NTSC version. Sorry but that's just how things are around here, we typically don't separate different versions from each other on the charts. Personally I believe we should have a system on the site to handle version differences in a way that doesn't have an impact on the overall rankings or sitewide, but understand that we've been using this system for 7 years. Disregarding all other arguments, if we WERE to separate PAL from NTSC then there is one massive problem: we already have thousands of submissions, and we have no way to tell which ones were played on NTSC and which ones were played on PAL. Feel free to only submit your NTSC times if you would like and you can take pride in having the fastest times played on the NTSC version, but officially TSC is not going to split different versions of the game.
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In general, if we wanted to have support for stats made with different systems (50hz/60hz, NTSC/PAL, Gamecube/Dreamcast, etc. etc.), then it would be worth looking at sites like the Mario Kart Players' Pages or Elite Scores. These sites allow you to view records and charts in multiple ways: with stats from both versions, with stats from version A only, or with stats from version B only.
Mario Kart: Double Dash!! examples:
Chart: 60hz (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/coursen.php?cid=0), 50hz (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/coursep.php?cid=0), combined (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/coursec.php?cid=0).
Records: 60hz (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/wrn.php), 50hz (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/wrp.php), combined (http://mariokart64.com/mkdd/wrc.php).
Elite Scores examples (Super Monkey Ball 2):
Chart: NTSC (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_all.php?gid=12&ver=4&lvl=536), PAL (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_all.php?gid=12&ver=5&lvl=536), combined (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_all.php?gid=12&lvl=536).
Records: NTSC (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_wr.php?gid=12&ver=4), PAL (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_wr.php?gid=12&ver=5), combined (http://www.elitescores.com/rank_wr.php?gid=12).
Of course, it is harder to have focused competition (or focused bragging rights) when there are multiple possible rankings to view. I'm not going to get into this debate here, though - just throwing out possibilities of what could be done.
The Sonic Center doesn't have terribly many issues with 50hz/60hz, perhaps, but if we could support general system differences like Dreamcast/Gamecube in the same way, then this sort of Mario Kart-style integration might be useful for us. But it would also be a lot of work, as has been stated, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of motivation to overhaul TSC at this point.
Also, some people here have access to multiple versions of the same game (DC and GC in Sonic Adventure, for example). As far as I know, the Mario Kart Players' Pages and Elite Scores make sure that you submit only in one version - for example, all of your submissions in 50hz. Allowing people to have times for more than one version would be going beyond these sites, and it could get complicated. For example, only the combined ranking for a game should count toward the sitewide ranking, so that people don't get double credit for having both versions. A player's best time from either version would be the one that counts toward their combined-version times page. Etc. It'd be doable in theory, though...
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what I'm thinking, if we were to implement a version differences chart, is that the charts are set up the way they are now - except when you submit, you'd tick a box showing which system you used, and then you'd have an option on the chart to only see submissions from one version or another. Maybe allow players to have more than one submission in a chart as well, but in any case the only thing that counts toward overall and sitewide is the combined chart with all versions.
Like I mentioned though, we have a significant problem: we don't know which version the thousands of submissions we have were played on. That makes converting all the stats we have right now to the new system completely infeasible, short of completely wiping the rankings, which I don't think anyone wants to do. So you'd need to work out how to handle that before you can discuss implementing a system like this.
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That's simple. Any existing record would simply exist in global with players electing to clarify which version they played on or not.
Or (if existence in a specific list is required,) all existing records would exist in 50hz (and therefore global) with players electing to clarify 60hz or not.
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I don't see much difference between PAL and NTSC for competition. For example: I play the US version of Sonic CD which is NTSC and I hold the SS2 time record. I dunno what happens with Special Stages though. Anyway I would like if we had competition in the other time zones of the game too.
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There's a huge difference. Play in 50hz, everything runs 10hz slower letting you time everything easier, allowing you to get a faster time, even though in real life you've taken longer to finish the level.
All the 16-bit Sonic games are like this.
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I don't see why if we're pushing for optimalness, and legitimacy, are we playing an inferior version of these games as the standard???
50hz isn't what the games were designed to be played at, 60hz is.
Would you like to substantiate this claim for me? Games are designed to be played (and for developers to make money >_>), not in a specific framerate, or region, but to be played. And just because different parts of the world use different video technology (for some bloody strange reason), game developers have to make different versions for different regions. No version is inferior to the other.
If you're telling all the NTSC players they should be forced to play in 50hz, you should actually be doing the opposite, and telling all the PAL players to get an emulator, and play in 60hz.
For example: I play the US version of Sonic CD which is NTSC and I hold the SS2 time record.
Just to make this quote worthwhile: Brazil uses PAL/50Hz for consoles. Romulo, being awesome as always, played NTSC and has the best time.
Especially since
1. NTSC versions of the game outnumbers the PAL versions.
2. 60hz is what was intended, and originally released for I do believe, every single 16-bit Sonic game.
3. The competitive authority would obviously take the original gameplay as the standard, and see slowed down play as unfair.
1) You mind telling me where you got this data? Not to mention that the roms and disc images are now digital, so quantities are pointless to bring up.
2) "I do beleive". Opinion. Noted. Not a valid justification point.
3) Well yes we do. Playing PAL systems is original gameplay, and playing NTSC systems is original gameplay.
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PAL isn't the original.
I do believe every single 16-bit Sonic is originally released in 60hz, I would need to check. I'll do that right quick...
JP releases and US releases are generally out before being ported to the PAL Territory.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
PAL runs slower, we could just make the game run at 10hz and play it, it's the same thing. Push our times even more.
Except, that's not allowed. So why is 50hz allowed when 60hz is the original, real speed?
It seems there is some overhauling of the site happening? Now is a good time to implement Yoshifan's idea.
I also think it'd be nice to put up the other time zones for competition.
Past
Bad Future
Good Future
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You seem to fail to understand the goal of speedrunning.
See the timer when you start a level? See how it's rising? Your job is to stop that timer in the fewest possible increments. That's all.
We don't measure skill, we don't measure entertainment, we don't measure how boring a stat is to obtain. None of these things are relevant to speedrunning. What we do measure, and what our site's goal to measure is, would be the stats themselves: how many rings CAN you/HAVE been obtained in level X, what's the maximum score in a single zone, how low can the timer be stopped. This is what high level play is about: the stats themselves.
Because all the Gen-Drive games timers except TT(which has no pal) and SCD Bonus(Which is what we're talking about) are based on frames, not real time, they're all used for competition. TT has no official PAL, so it's 50hz version (haha) is banned. SCD does, so it's used, because the timer's faster. TSC seeks to use any and all official released in it's rankings, so long as the differences are technical and not layout based, as it applies to GenDrive games.
We don't care how long it takes to clear a levels in real time, we care how early the timer stops (Time-stop glitches are universally allowed, for example).
Either you don't understand the rhetoric of the site, or you don't understand the speedrunning it's based on.
Also, since you're out of touch with the community, I'll let you know we ARE going to add SCD time zones, to be played from the debug stage-select menu. (PP1 past/future is hilariously short, bwaha)
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Also, since you're out of touch with the community, I'll let you know we ARE going to add SCD time zones, to be played from the debug stage-select menu. (PP1 past/future is hilariously short, bwaha)
We are? This is news to me. Good news though >_>
Also it's my opinion that NTSC/PAL splitting is kinda dumb, especially outside of things like CD special stages, and even then you could compare it to Dreamcast Gamecube stuff. Except you can use emulator so stop whining <_<
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50hz and 60hz should still be split like the Mario Kart times.
: (