The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: Rolken on June 16, 2009, 03:02:37 am
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I am no longer going to be running TSC. In the interest of preserving some or all of it, I am putting out this inquiry to see whether anyone else is interested in managing some or all of it. As I see it, there are four broad fields of competency in play, which in the past (and in the future if they so indicate) have often been delegated to people like GerbilSoft, mike89 and Zeupar, or sometimes nobody (not a good idea). Here they are:
A programmer who can maintain the code
A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously
A site designer / director / all-around-visionary who can tie the team together and provide common purpose
If you want to handle one or more of these fields, feel free to respond with your vision for and understanding of the site either in this topic or in PM (if you have one). If desired I can outline my ideal philosophy for running the site as well, but I'd like to see what others have to say first. I am quitting because both the site and I have evolved in directions where I do not believe that philosophy is one I can maintain and I am no longer inclined to preserve something less.
If all else fails, I will put archives of all site data up in a giant torrent for posterity and may inquire into getting the rankings transferred to other existing sites.
edit: various clarifications made.
edit2: I am not "leaving TSC forever". I may be around quite a bit less, but for the past few weeks I was absent merely to consider things from the outside, not because I intend to split permanently. I would actually be quite interested in seeing how others run the place.
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A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously
A site designer / director / all-around-visionary who can tie everyone together
I do not understand the difference between these two.
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A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously
A site designer / director / all-around-visionary who can tie the team together
I do not understand the difference between these two.
clarified
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A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
What.
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A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
What.
A rules enforcer and probably also a rules committee.
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"A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him".
Him, what? :(
Also, I wish I could do something for TSC. And maybe I could do something in the near future once I've developed more programming skills. *Is currently only learning* :(
Though, at the same time, I think a few people might not want someone as unstable as me being able to do things to the site *snerk*
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I will be willing to be part of rule making/enforcer and/or community manager (jokes aside >_>). I would put as much effort in as possible to keep this great site/community going.
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The only thing i could really do really is
"A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him"
I really wanted to help TSC and now i can atleast try too. <_<
EDIT: As for enforcing the final judgment i'm pretty good at that (Except Epic mafia which i fail badly :D)
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Wow I would really hate to see such a great and strong site go down.. I'd be more than willing to give "A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously" a shot. I've always been pretty good at keeping the peace, being fair and the like. I know that I'm relativity new here, but I'm online a lot espically in the summer (now).
I would try my hand at maintaining the code but I doubt a year of Computer Science 1 and 2 would be sufficient for that.
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Well, this is something I've been sitting on for a while because of all the uncertainty surrounding Rolken's departure. However, now that all that is cleared up, I'll no longer be taking any part in TSC.
I have long felt that I have been a negative influence on the site since I assumed some level of power, and it is for that reason why my attempts to revitalise the community had failed where positive people like flyby were so successful. As a result I feel it would be mutually beneficial for me to depart... and it probably would've been the case six months ago too, if I had had the mental toughness to walk away from what was comfortable.
The time has come for a more competent leader than myself to step forward. I know there're plenty of you out there.
PS Rolk: Sorry for hijacking your topic, but I didn't want to make my own and hijack the whole forum :(
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What, Mike is leaving too? :( You guys are all lame. But again, I would like to express proper interest in helping build on the site with coding and what not, I'm really interested in that sort of stuff. It'd be awesome to have a look over some work you've done, Rolk, for the site to see how it works, and what not...
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This is saddening. :(
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Well, this is something I've been sitting on for a while because of all the uncertainty surrounding Rolken's departure. However, now that all that is cleared up, I'll no longer be taking any part in TSC.
I have long felt that I have been a negative influence on the site since I assumed some level of power, and it is for that reason why my attempts to revitalise the community had failed where positive people like flyby were so successful. As a result I feel it would be mutually beneficial for me to depart... and it probably would've been the case six months ago too, if I had had the mental toughness to walk away from what was comfortable.
The time has come for a more competent leader than myself to step forward. I know there're plenty of you out there.
PS Rolk: Sorry for hijacking your topic, but I didn't want to make my own and hijack the whole forum :(
I'll totally take it
*shot*
EDIT: no really i'll take it >_>
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Well, I for one would really like to help, but I've never had any experience in these matters, so I probably wouldn't be much help. However, I do know that this website simply CANNOT DIE (Tikal forbids it) so I'm willing to pitch in. I don't know the programming language required but am very much willing to learn. I just know that, as the one site I visit MORE OFTEN THAN FACEBOOK, I ain't lettin' this go down without a fight. My potential vision for the site may come later when I feel like writing it.
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A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
Sign me up. 8)
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I am willing to take on pretty much anything people want to throw at me; I'm probably not the person to do community management, due to my somewhat polarising sense of humour*, but I can definitely help with code and maybe as rules committee secretary/organiser/dogsbody?
* although putting me in charge of people would make a TERRIFIC reality TV show. We could call it "Doug screws people up through sophomoric humour and pure distilled evil". In fact screw this helping out, I'm off to pitch this to the networks.
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I liked you as site manager, but I'm sure it'll be handled well by everyone else. :(
You should change your title to "Person". <_<
Edit: MIKE IS LEAVING TOO?!
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Okay, let's put Dhaos in charge of the site.
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I know I've only been here for a year, but I would like to pitch in too. This site is too awesome to go down. I don't know anything about codes and stuff and but I could help with the other bits such as the rules or either the community manager bit. Even if it's a small job I still like to help out :(
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Well, this is something I've been sitting on for a while because of all the uncertainty surrounding Rolken's departure. However, now that all that is cleared up, I'll no longer be taking any part in TSC.
You remember the deal!?
I'm gone too >_>
Edit: APPARENTLY PEOPLE CANNOT SPOT SATIRE LOL
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I actually thing DSS and Zeupar would make an excellent rule arbitration team. If we gave them the sort of general rule laws that we abide by at tsc (nothing infinite, competition degrading), I think they have enough dedication/sonic knowledge to create and enforce rule violations.
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I agree with Stefan: DsS and Zeupar would make an awesome enforcer team. Except now DsS would now know how to circumvent the cheater flag....
GASP
MAYBE THIS WAS HIS GRAND PLAN
TODAY TSC
TOMORROW THE WORLD
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I agree with Stefan: DsS and Zeupar would make an awesome enforcer team. Except now DsS would now know how to circumvent the cheater flag....
GASP
MAYBE THIS WAS HIS GRAND PLAN
TODAY TSC
TOMORROW THE WORLD
Hah :)
Who's actually on the Rules Committee as it stands? Maybe we should have an all-new one if mike's departing. Either way, I wholeheartedly endorse DsS and Zeupar as members.
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I was hesitant to do anything when I first read the topic, but instead of seeing a whole bunch of people stepping up and saying "Oh, I'll help with such and such", I see a second admin stepping down at the same time, and everybody saying "oh DsS plays games well, he should take over". So I'm volunteering for anything Rolken mentioned other than "programmer" because I don't have or even know anybody who does have Gerbil's understanding of TSC programming. EDIT: Not to say that I wouldn't be willing to program... just don't expect me to dive right in knowing everything.
On the side of understanding and enforcing the rules, I've competed in all but the Storybook games on a relatively high level and thus have a good understanding of each game's physics, design, etc. I've also programmed enough Genesis Sonic hacks to understand a few things from the programmer's perspective and to base certain competition rules off of this philosophy (e.g. with the Hydrocity 2 and Ice Cap 1 "act cleared, but don't go to the next level" and Marble Garden 2 "finish that simply restarts the level" glitches, either the Current Zone/Act flag or the Level Load flag is altered, but not both, when TSC should require both to be changed for a stat to count). I'm also familiar with both the objective and subjective methods of callings BS (i.e. the difference between "That stat's not possible in that game" and "That stat is so good that it would require a game breaking glitch that nobody's heard of yet", and when it's okay to call BS on the latter).
Forum-wise, I've been full moderator of the Emerald Challenge forums and managed to not explode in anybody's face over his/her stupidity, if that counts for anything. I've also done some administrative work on TUSC, although that's currently in a state of disarray that probably merits redoing the entire site with less bullshit games and more games that TSC would actually play. I'm somewhat aware of how the charts are designed due to creating them on TUSC: while I'm sure an actual TSC admin doesn't get the pretty, clickable interface that subsite admins get, I do remember holding yse's hand through making charts for Chaotix Special Stages, so it can't be too much different.~
I do agree with those that have said that DsS could play some role in creating and enforcing rules, since he's clearly got the knowledge for it. In fact, I believe that much of the reason for debates over rules is that the current admins don't actively compete. While that allows them to be more objective, it also causes a bit of separation from the site's purpose, and when the people running the place aren't familiar with certain things that need to be done, they simply don't get done. I also advocate Zeupar continuing to play a part, seeing as when he came to power, rules were laid and BS stats were wiped. I have quite the level of respect for GerbilSoft and how hard he's being on the current wave of new member BS: while some new people have said that they're scared to submit because of Gerbil's public posts that call people out, they have no reason to be scared unless they intend to lie.
Okay, screw making an epic conclusion to this essay on why I feel I'm capable of helping out. I've had this ugly feeling in my stomach as I type, seeing as mike and RPG are on their way out and they've been my number one reason for sticking around. While I'll never understand the "negative influence on the site" mike presented "since [he] assumed some level of power" (I don't really remembering you doing much that *required* admin power -- most of your influence was due to your social status and people hanging onto your words, which is a good thing), I think I would be able to fill at least part of the gap that Rolken and mike are leaving.
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:'(
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I agree with Stefan: DsS and Zeupar would make an awesome enforcer team. Except now DsS would now know how to circumvent the cheater flag....
GASP
MAYBE THIS WAS HIS GRAND PLAN
TODAY TSC
TOMORROW THE WORLD
Hah :)
Who's actually on the Rules Committee as it stands? Maybe we should have an all-new one if mike's departing. Either way, I wholeheartedly endorse DsS and Zeupar as members.
Seconded. And Minus made me lol hard >_>
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I've been thinking about this some more ... and I'm beginning to think I want to try the programming part. True, I don't know the language. But I'm willing to learn it, and I probably know multiple people in real life who do. I'm a computer engineering graduate! Anything I pick up by working on that code will only look good on my resume! In all honesty, since the only thing I really ever compete in is rings ... I'd probably enjoy coding the website more than actually competing in it. And if I've learned something in the past month, it's that I need SOMETHING to do this summer. All I'd hope is that GS commented his code.
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A programmer who can maintain the code
A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously
A site designer / director / all-around-visionary who can tie the team together and provide common purpose
I'm going to give my thoughts on who I think is probably best for each area. Most of these are based on perceived qualification and maturity. Not to say that I don't think the others aren't qualified, but I think they'd do the best.
Programmer: Gerbil's been doing pretty much all of that for the last however-long. Most of TSC's new functionality, He's not my favorite person in the world but I don't see why this should change; he cares more about TSC's actual coding more than anyone else ever did, even if he breaks it sometimes.
<GerbilSoft> fu
Referee: Mike is probably most qualified, but he's leaving. Zeupar also cares. Stefan too. Probably best split between them. I don't remember offhand who's on the rules committee and am too lazy to check, but anyone on there should be fine.
Community Manager: There is no doubt that flyby fits this on the nose. And from the implications I've gotten she isn't going anywhere. Whammo.
Designer/Director/Visionary: Mike is the logical progression for the top (DAMN YOU FOR SAYING YOU ARE LEAVING), but this one is pretty open-ended and vague, to be perfectly honest. Stefan? Thorn? Zeupar? *shrug*
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I'd volunteer to help with some of the community stuff as well considering I haven't really had the competitive spirit lately. I've had several ideas that would've been great to help tie the community together, particularly in a more casual sense. (See also the magic tournament that I pretty much ended up running, the failed box league, the failed TCG, some league ideas.) I've got a few other fledgling ideas too that I wouldn't mind bouncing off of someone.
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Okay, so here are my thoughts on the roles, as well as on candidates (will update as the topic goes on, or others can start their own):
Programmers
Clearly need to be both trustworthy and technically skilled. Gerbil will be able to answer better than anyone how many bodies are needed here, and how much is/can be exposed to others (eg creation of new charts).
Candidates:
GerbilSoft: obviously. Quite apart from being teh awesomes, he owns and operates the TSC server (by the way, the offer of monies towards that stands).
Douglas: zomg presumption! I can code (rusty in PHP/SQL, but will pick it up again quickly), and am trustworthy when sober.
Minus: needs something to do this summer (<_<), keen to learn.
Referees
My take here would be to give all members of the Rules Committee the power of banhammer (as well as editorship over LD and of course the rules page). This is a pretty big jump in trust, and would rely on members both taking this seriously and having excellent knowledge of the games they're presiding over (so eg if I was on, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to ban a player for offences in SA:DX). It's also important that such actions are recorded so they're transparent and it becomes obvious if anyone's taking the piss. With all that in mind, I'd propose quite a large committee, drawing on the Spaceship Users, and with a chair who has the job of herding cats keeping things organised (the chair may be the same person as the Grand Overseer, see below).
Candidates:
DarkspinesSonic: probably unrivalled knowledge of many, many games (particularly in the sordid land of 3D).
Zeupar: again, excellent knowledge across a number of games, plus is the most fair and anal thorough researcher you could ask for.
Thorn: see his post.
Douglas: on previous RC, know my way around the GeneDrive and GBA titles, OCD on consistent basis for rules rather than case-by-case considerations.
SpinballWizard: http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=4302.0 - 'nuff said.
Stefan: similar reasons to Zeupar.
Community Leaders
I see this as essentially a combination of forum admin and newbie helper - kind of the role that Spaceship Users should be fulfilling, only with power over forum privileges. I'm ambivalent over this; on one hand I think SUs can be trusted to pitch in more on this (eg being able to delete posts), but on the other I think it's worth this being distinct from SUs because some of us can be something of an acquired taste (read: Doug is an asshole <_<), and it probably helps to have people who've a mindset to help new users. Should also get edit privileges over stuff like the FAQ, Visitor Orientation, etc. We should have as many of these as Referees members if at all possible.
Candidates:
Thorn: again, see his post (note in particular a track record at this kind of thing).
flyby: pretty much a shoe-in. Most nicest person ever.
Grand Overseer
In my view, in order to have a coordinated approach this person should automatically be both on the Rules Committee and a Community Leader, as in terms of the member experience they're two sides of the same coin (stick and carrot). This person needs to have the support and respect of the TSC community, but also be accountable to it. I therefore have a proposal - TSC General Election. I don't think the other positions require this (though could be persuaded otherwise), nor do I think being elected should give you absolute control over the site (the Rules Committee and the Community Leaders are your checks and balances, as it were). I also think the election process (as a series of debates about the direction in which we should take TSC) could be a worthwhile exercise.
Thoughts?
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Reading Thorn's post about dss playing some role in creating and enforcing the rules bit, I started to have a re-think. I realised that I don't really have the knowledge for that sort of thing. I mean the only games that I have knowledge in is S06, SBK and S2 (which are games that no one cares about, well except S2).
I could always try for the community manager part. You guys have known me for a while now, so you know what sort of person I am, through the forums and chat. Not to mention I am here at TSC a lot now because the site is just pure awesome and I would love it to stay that way :D
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Something I forgot to point out, and douglas inadvertently reminded me: we DEFINITELY need multiple people for programming. What happens right now if GS for some reason needs to leave (like his family decides to move to the middle of the African wilderness for some inexplicable reason)? He has extensive knowledge of the programming, but the only one with that level. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only other to have even touched the TSC code in the recent past is Rolken (well whaddya know). GS leaves, there are probably certain parts of this code that we'd NEVER be able to figure out, and two years later we find out that Rick Astley somehow has become sitewide champion. I don't expect you to leave anytime soon, GS, but you have to admit, we'd be in hot water without ya, and for that reason we need others to have very good knowledge of the code.
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Just to be clear, I'm more interested in philosophy and motivations than qualifications. As such, volunteering other people is not particularly helpful. I had no qualifications when I started TSC and I like to think I've done reasonably well at it.
I don't think knowing the games is necessarily as important for the rule overseers as that the direction he intends to take rulings is good for the site. It is necessary but not sufficient for the community managers to be nice.
I would not have picked mike even if he volunteered himself, not because of any past track record as he cited, but because I don't think it would be healthy for both him and the site for him to be in charge. That is the kind of thing I am concerned about.
TSC code is a bit obtuse but I am willing to put some effort into improving the readability and helping people understand it if that makes a difference. It was my first complete project so it unavoidably has its weaknesses.
edit: I also don't have any particular direction in mind that I'm waiting for someone to puzzle out. I am more concerned with forming a team that will be happy and motivated to work together for a common cause.
edit2: also I will be around at least in a consulting capacity on the code for quite awhile. It's not Gerbil's responsibility, it's mine.
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A programmer who can maintain the code
A referee who can arbitrate the rules, probably with people with knowledge of the games behind him
A community manager who can keep people together harmoniously
A site designer / director / all-around-visionary who can tie the team together and provide common purpose
I am going to throw my hat in the ring for the latter two roles. While there've certainly been fractures in the community, I don't think it's anything that can't be recovered from if we can get people to work together. I am highly interested in seeing TSC move forward with, hopefully, more interest in and better competition. I'm willing to dedicate the time, which, however many names might be suggested, a lot of it will come down to if they're interested, and frankly, I don't think there are all that many people who are both interested in taking charge and would do a good job of it. Thorn being most likely (as I am slightly better suited to the community manager role, but can see myself doing more and doing it right, dammit)
Otherwise, I think it's a given for GerbilSoft to stay on as the programmer if he's so willing
As to a referee, a rules committee is probably the best option, but a fairly informal one. There should be a couple people in charge overall, but discussion and input from the community is key. I would think of at least Thorn, SJ, and DsS for it, possibly others depending on interest.
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I nominate myself for Grand Overseer, it will be really useful experience for when I rule the World
<___<
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AD I would've included you under community but flyby beats the shit out of you in every category, from being nice to being female *SHOT* and all that stuff.
Also doug I am flattered. I mean yeah I do care but half the time I end up being ignored.
Douglas: zomg presumption! I can code (rusty in PHP/SQL, but will pick it up again quickly), and am trustworthy when sober.
Also I want to know how often you are not a drunken bastard. (i.e. more or less than RPG?)
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I wish I could help, but I'm far to angsty far too often to hold any power here. I love this site, and I'm too afraid I would kill it, given the chance.
That aside, I would fully be willing to help this site become whatever its populace decides it should be.
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In that case, Rolken, would it be acceptable to underly a philosophy and hope someone else takes it up? I hate responsibility in all forms, and am hardly around TSC enough to actively take up an adminship role, but I think I have a pretty good philosophy on refereeing:
1.) Any trick/glitch/or exploit that provide for infinite score, infinite rings, infinite time (in the case of hot shelter-gamma) should not be allowed, ever. The existence of infinity makes competition a trial in patience rather than a trial in skill.
2.) Any trick/glitch/or exploit that removes the essence of competition should not be allowed ever. To clarify, things that uphold the essence of competition are:
a.) In a case of all else equal, the player with higher skill will come up in a better position.
b.) The actual level is relevant in terms of the final completion time/score/rings
c.) Player interaction is necessary and vital.
As an example of a trick that violates each bullet point that is disallowed under this philosophy:
a.) Pausing and restarting upon hitting the goal ring in sonic adventure 2:battle or sonic unleashed, providing for a time of .40 seconds, regardless of level.
b.) playing route 280's one hundred ring mission and turboing into the water as you collect your hundredth ring. While this maintains the deviation of higher skill/lower skill, it still disregards the entire level.
c.) using a turbo controller to play parts of the level for you
3.) Any trick/glitch/exploit/anything that does what is impossible using the game alone is not allowed. This includes slowing down an emulator, using the pal version of a game that doesn't have pal, using an action replay, or going into debug mode.
4.) All other tricks/glitches/exploits should be legitimate techniques.
Another important distinction is what charts are realistic to have, and what aren't. Tracking dumb charts is.. dumb.
To be tracked, a chart should:
1.) Have potential for competition. A ring chain chart in SSR where you get the perfect score from simply letting the level play itself is not worthy of having on TSC.
2.) Have sufficient support to be competed in. If one person wants a particular chart, and nobody else will compete in it, there's no point in having it.
3.) Not be a redundancy. We don't track sonic genesis because it's.. sonic 1 with broken physics. This one's fairly self-explanatory
As for the ways to deal with cheaters:
Clearly illegitimate statistics should be deleted and perpetrators banned. Having a knowledgeable player in a particular game that says "hey, you can't get 600 rings in green hill 1" is vital to the success of this.
People who have been accused of bsery should be dealt with politely and respectfully; I can think of a particular case where Chao Fan was belittled for several "impossible stats", when she had in fact just discovered that you can go beyond the goal ring in sonic heroes. Maintaining a mature attitude while accusing people also improves the community and makes people more likely to stay at the site.
that's... about it. if someone wants to undertake that philosophy, they'd be my personal pick for referee. I don't personally want to do it; I might have time now that it's summer, but when school picks up I'll be a poor admin. I just honestly can't see myself around long enough to be a good choice for rule-based-adminship.
EDIT: S1GG was a typo for genesis, thanks minus.
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Allow me to remind you, Stefan, that we also may need a fix for differences between systems (yes, I did just bring THAT up again) primarily for your rule 2A: all else being equal, someone with a DC will do better on City Escape rings than someone with a GC. I've proposed a programming fix for this in the past, but GS usually counters with something to the effect of "too much work and I'm too lazy". <_<
EDIT: And I hope you mean Sonic Genesis, not Sonic 1 Game Gear - we DO track that, because it's MUCH different.
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this is my vision for tsc's future (http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c179/SkyLights1/Screenshot-BOOMHEADSHOTIcandanceall.png)
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Stefan I do think that the philosophy you underlined is what a good 95% of TSC already practices. I'm looking through your post for anything that might've been argued against at some point in time, but as far as I can tell, you've pretty much outlined the group consensus.
I do, however, think we are appropriately hard on BSers. What needs to change in that regard is that people need to stay out of discussions that they don't belong in. If an admin points out that a certain statistic is fake, the entire site doesn't need to post in the topic to cite examples of other things they find impossible -- that discussion should stay between the admins and the "cheater". Likewise, if players of a certain game group together for a BS call, a person who isn't familiar with the game has no right to be posting. Perhaps some sort of permissions system could be implemented for that board so that the admins can stop certain agitators from posting.
For the people who have been bringing up the old Rules Committee: Judging by the old logs, the people involved were myself, RPG, yse, SM, Achlys, douglas, and Stefan. MK seems to have participated in a later meeting.
The other thing I'd like to see is for If I Had a (Ban) Hammer users, who are by default given low-level mod privileges, to be given just a smidge more power so that they can actually moderate. >_> They can modify posts, but not delete them. While this allows them to be funny, it doesn't deter the original poster from recreating the same post. At the very least, it's quicker to click Delete over a series of spam posts than it is to modify each one's contents.
Subsites need to be cleaned out under one of Stefan's rules: there's no support for competition anymore. In particular, TUSC is a complete mess, what with some of the games on the site actually being outdated.
Probably the biggest thing that needs to be done on TSC is everything. We get a new admin, he/she cleans up what needs to be cleaned for a while... and then he/she gets bored and we go back to nothing getting done again. I don't really think there's a way to fix this -- you can't change people -- but Zeupar, if you're reading this, put up the damned Rivals 2 rule already. This goes back to the admins being somewhat removed from the competition, thusly not caring very much on occasion.
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Probably the biggest thing that needs to be done on TSC is everything. We get a new admin, he/she cleans up what needs to be cleaned for a while... and then he/she gets bored and we go back to nothing getting done again. I don't really think there's a way to fix this -- you can't change people -- but Zeupar, if you're reading this, put up the damned Rivals 2 rule already. This goes back to the admins being somewhat removed from the competition, thusly not caring very much on occasion.
This is really, really the key. If even the admins don't care, then why should anyone else care? There needs to be someone in charge who cares enough about the site and the competition and the community to push it forward positively, not just a "meh, I'll do it later" attitude.
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I think Rolken means that he wants applicants to outline general philosophies concerning TSC's direction instead of something specific like an outline of prospective rules; the fundamental question is "where should TSC go from here?".
For whatever merit others see in my opinion, I don't think TSC is sustainable as a competition site because we don't have a large enough pool of active players (or if you want to look at this inverted, we lack sufficiently active players in the core community). And why should we expect for new members to join to replenish our numbers, mature, and improve the site dynamic? I could write extensively on this, but I don't think anybody would dispute my logic so I'll just segue to my one original point with my earlier argument as its basis. Who really cares about the competition in TSC as anything but a social function? If people admire the community itself over competition, the focus of the site, do we really need to maintain competition as our primary function? Users wouldn't leave TSC if it became a general networking grounds, because we're there right now with games of Mafia, iSketch, Settlers, Toulouse, etc. Considering this, we might perhaps become something more fluid.
It's a jump from what I said before, completely separate from my reasoning, but I suggest using TSC as a launching point for other act ivies. Maybe we could construct a group schedule, and use the site as a means of organization for doing other things. Think of this as TSC's community coordinating events: several people Brawling as dictated by the schedule, transitioning to an organized debate, later following a groupwatch of a movie, and so on. It's just centralizing what we do already.
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^ We already have tools to centralize activities between multiple TSCers... namely, the IRC channel and the forum. When you say that the competition is unsustainable and becoming a small part of the site, it makes it seem like TSC is just a site where people gather to play online games and talk about their lives... oh, and we happen to like Sonic games, too. What's funny is that this is already the case, but advertising it that way doesn't draw people in. People already have communities they participate in for hanging with friends online; to get the smart ones here, we need to have something specific that piques their interest.
...oh wait, we do have that in the rankings! Even if they're not extremely active, they're expansive and permanent. So anybody who comes here having just gotten a shiny new copy on Unleashed sees 50 people to compete against, not "oh here's 50 people on a chart, only seven of which are actually trying". Just like you said, it's a social function. I don't think that means it can't be our defining feature, though. All communities have some sort of defining feature: Sonic Retro specializes in technical aspects of Sonic games, but the frequency at which people post in the Engineering and Reverse Engineering Forum is much lower than the rate at which people post in the "talk about anything" forums. Sonic Cage Dome and Sonic Stadium have large communities as their draw, so it's easy to jump right in or act anonymous if that's more your speed. Chaos Sonic Forum allows for fan fiction, sonicresearch.org allows for technical discussion in a small community... and we have rankings. So... yeah.
I think the focus we've had on rulings and cleaning house and why we feel we could maintain the site says quite a bit about our "philosophy": we like what we have, and we simply want to polish it. Our last attempt to create a new "direction" for TSC was in the form of subsites, which fell flat for a number of reasons. If we further what we have now and address problems as they arise, we'll be fine.
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Who really cares about the competition in TSC as anything but a social function?
How about if you recognize that your TAS seems to need a lot of work seeing as someone on this site clearly has your TASed speedrun beat? Or maybe you'd like to see how skillfully we are able to play these games? It is clear to regulars that this site also has a social function via the chatroom/forum, but if you're only here to make friends, then clearly theres a good bit of site here you wouldn't be using as a member. I doubt it's in the site's best interests to turn it into a community that caters to itself and only itself.
Perhaps this site inspires people to play the games more often than debating on a logical reason as to why theres 6 chaos emeralds in sonic 1 and 7 in the rest except for Sonic the Fighers which has 8 or why Marine's existence has a point. That's what makes this site stand out among Sonic fansites. The point of it at its core is to play Sonic games. Not travel the world internets in search of Sonic-the-Hedgehog related news and posting that the next Sonic game is set in a place called Pizza Land and that Sonic Team is definitely reinventing Sonic the Hedgehog with this one, or typing a six-page essay on why Sega isn't cool anymore, or make animations of Knuckles flipping off rainbows, or concocting a team of individuals to program an amazing game that Sega will sue the creators of because it's so awesome. Given the sites features, a comprehensive list of people's best statistics for any given Sonic game (that matters), a record of how all players statistics progressed, a ranking system that encourages people to improve, and a plethora of all kinds of media discussing all the ins and outs of all different Sonic games, I think it's pretty clear where this site stands among all the others.
If our primary concern is to "recruit" new members, then clearly we need to do a few things:
- Prove that our system of honor works, or alter it somehow. When a member like smizzla who was #1 sitewide gets banned for cheating, it clearly raises serious doubts about the validity of our process and doesn't help at all when people come here and are wondering if someone can post kind-of-real records and get away with it.
- Enhance the new-user accessibility. And I don't mean wheelchair accessibility. I mean, if some dude comes here from Sonic Stadium, clearly they're gonna be like "wow this site looks ancient". I like the themes as much as the next guy, but for the new user, they're probably not as exciting as they used to be. :(
- Fix the irregularities of the site. Like the overlapping rule standards of some of the games in which we allow Advance 2 score scalping and don't allow roll-comboing a badnik in Lava Reef 2 for an incredibly high yet just-as-finite score.
- Make the subsites less thoroughly neglected. I mean there's New Records on TUSC from April. :(
Once all that is completed by whoever, then we have a better chance at enslaving the minds of poor Sonic gamers who figure that this place is the best place to compete, because they happen to be right.
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also
I'll no longer be taking any part in TSC.
too late! we have your constitution to follow which states that you have awesome to do with TSC
and it's also too late to remove it because i have it saved to my computer
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GASP
Douglas has posted in this thread multiple times and it's SKYLIGHTS who wins?
Obligatory AHHHHHH***Minus bricked
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If we're delving into philosophies, I shall outline mine.
TSC was at it's best when there's been some sort of sitewide focus on something. Remember the buzz about the place when the Emerald Challenges were on, or the Olympics, or for the marathons? I'm betting there was a definite uptick in both membership and submissions when they were happening (particularly the ECs through SCD's involvement). I can't speak to how effective the leagues have been, having been a fail and not participated, but the same thing applies. The tricky thing is keeping them fresh, but we should have one every couple of months, and we should pimp it all over the intarwebs.
Another thing that makes TSC teh awesomes that you don't see so much any more is rivalries - when two or more players are going at a level or even a whole game hammer-and-tongs. I'd like to do something to stimulate this, and my plan is a Rivalries feature, whereby you and your rival can create a goal with a deadline - say "Douglas vs SpinballWizard, Sadv2 Ice Paradise 2 (Sonic), Best Time at 02/08/2009 00:00UTC" - then the winner gets a trophy in a section similar to 'Awards' (you could also have a Random Rivalry on the front page). If people wanted, you could extend this to setting personal challenges for yourself or others, but rivalries would be the priority.
In terms of rules enforcement, I think maybe we're a bit too quick to jump down new players' throats, and sometimes BS calls can get a bit personal. Personally, I think the only people allowed to call BS should be the Rules Committee, and if you had a suspicion, it could go through them - that way they can explain the situation (emphasising that it's not a witch hunt, just that we want clean charts so everyone can enjoy competing) and what kind of proof is required without it descending into a snark-fest. The idea would be that only RC members could start Leadership Disputes topics (with accompanying PM) and only they and the accused should post in them.
As for admin apathy, I'd cure that with more involvement from the RC or Community Leaders as detailled in my other post.
Right, that's probably enough to digest for one post. Next time I shall have a shiny graphics like SkyLights! Only without Tikal. Ever.
As an aside, this kind of discussion is exactly what I had in mind when I suggested an election (rather than some banal personality content which I'd win easily on account of my awesome <_<). We should totally have one - my guess is SonicAD and Thorn would contest it, with SkyLights (Tikal Appreciation Party) and possibly RPG (Getting Drunk And Playing WoW Party) as comedy entries.
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If we're delving into philosophies, I shall outline mine.
TSC was at it's best when there's been some sort of sitewide focus on something. Remember the buzz about the place when the Emerald Challenges were on, or the Olympics, or for the marathons? I'm betting there was a definite uptick in both membership and submissions when they were happening (particularly the ECs through SCD's involvement). I can't speak to how effective the leagues have been, having been a fail and not participated, but the same thing applies. The tricky thing is keeping them fresh, but we should have one every couple of months, and we should pimp it all over the intarwebs.
Very much agreed. I like this point, and you're right, we need to keep teh buzz going.
Another thing that makes TSC teh awesomes that you don't see so much any more is rivalries - when two or more players are going at a level or even a whole game hammer-and-tongs. I'd like to do something to stimulate this, and my plan is a Rivalries feature, whereby you and your rival can create a goal with a deadline - say "Douglas vs SpinballWizard, Sadv2 Ice Paradise 2 (Sonic), Best Time at 02/08/2009 00:00UTC" - then the winner gets a trophy in a section similar to 'Awards' (you could also have a Random Rivalry on the front page). If people wanted, you could extend this to setting personal challenges for yourself or others, but rivalries would be the priority.
STOP THE PRESSES
DOUGLAS WINS AGAIN
HOLY HAMBURGER THIS IS AWESOME
I'm not kidding. This is one of the best ideas I've ever heard.
In terms of rules enforcement, I think maybe we're a bit too quick to jump down new players' throats, and sometimes BS calls can get a bit personal. Personally, I think the only people allowed to call BS should be the Rules Committee, and if you had a suspicion, it could go through them - that way they can explain the situation (emphasising that it's not a witch hunt, just that we want clean charts so everyone can enjoy competing) and what kind of proof is required without it descending into a snark-fest. The idea would be that only RC members could start Leadership Disputes topics (with accompanying PM) and only they and the accused should post in them.
As for admin apathy, I'd cure that with more involvement from the RC or Community Leaders as detailled in my other post.
Agreed with all. It DOES strike me that certain individuals on this board aren't very civilized when it comes to dealing with this. Is there any way we can make this private though? I'd say that outsiders shouldn't even be able to READ those topics. Nobody needs to know someone was even called into question ... right?
As an aside, this kind of discussion is exactly what I had in mind when I suggested an election (rather than some banal personality content which I'd win easily on account of my awesome <_<). We should totally have one - my guess is SonicAD and Thorn would contest it, with SkyLights (Tikal Appreciation Party) and possibly RPG (Getting Drunk And Playing WoW Party) as comedy entries.
Plus we must add write-in candidates. Question: how long will said individual's term last? <_<
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I was going to quote what ended up as point 2 in Minus's post to say that I think that is a fantastic idea.
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TSC was at it's best when there's been some sort of sitewide focus on something. Remember the buzz about the place when the Emerald Challenges were on, or the Olympics, or for the marathons? I'm betting there was a definite uptick in both membership and submissions when they were happening (particularly the ECs through SCD's involvement). I can't speak to how effective the leagues have been, having been a fail and not participated, but the same thing applies. The tricky thing is keeping them fresh, but we should have one every couple of months, and we should pimp it all over the intarwebs.
Another thing that makes TSC teh awesomes that you don't see so much any more is rivalries - when two or more players are going at a level or even a whole game hammer-and-tongs. I'd like to do something to stimulate this, and my plan is a Rivalries feature, whereby you and your rival can create a goal with a deadline - say "Douglas vs SpinballWizard, Sadv2 Ice Paradise 2 (Sonic), Best Time at 02/08/2009 00:00UTC" - then the winner gets a trophy in a section similar to 'Awards' (you could also have a Random Rivalry on the front page). If people wanted, you could extend this to setting personal challenges for yourself or others, but rivalries would be the priority.
I was recently thinking about this idea. We could extend it further and have inter-site competition battles between here SCD and (god forgive me for saying this) TSS *shot*. Also an idea about clans. Groups of about 4 or 5 compete and strategize agaisnt other clans and face-off. This could also be competitive between players with points doled out for wins, and records. Rivalries also is a very good idea. It may bring out more competition.
In terms of rules enforcement, I think maybe we're a bit too
quick to jump down new players' throats, and sometimes BS calls can get a bit personal. Personally, I think the only people allowed to call BS should be the Rules Committee, and if you had a suspicion, it could go through them - that way they can explain the situation (emphasising that it's not a witch hunt, just that we want clean charts so everyone can enjoy competing) and what kind of proof is required without it descending into a snark-fest. The idea would be that only RC members could start Leadership Disputes topics (with accompanying PM) and only they and the accused should post in them.
Was i not stressing this a month ago? We need order in and structure in this area. and yes. There should only be a selected few in charge of this area.
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Personally, I think the leaderboard disputes page shows how adamantly we despise cheaters and idiocy in general. I don't know about anyone else, but for every gaming site I'm a part of, I PM the upper echelons of the populace and see if they've any interest in TSC or any of it's subsites. I had a couple people with skill who come here and read through the LD and realized that when I say we aim to play the game on a whole new level, as well as keep our community to a relative pristine, that he decided (after doing a bit of research into how BS most of those things are), that he wanted to join us.
sadly, I cannot tell who among us IS this individual, as he won't let me speak his name, but suffice it to say that LD is the reason he's here.
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Strongly voicing that we hate BSing isn't the problem. The problem is that people get involved in BS calls that they shouldn't need to. Consider the case of SonicKudos (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=4387.0), who started explaining his Eternal Engine time by saying he spindashes in a set place. We didn't need anybody to say "hey, this level isn't played as Sonic"... he can back himself into a corner on his own. Yet the topic gets people throwing other false stats at him other than the one the topic concerns, and people telling him how to get proof of his stats. This topic could've been handled in three posts.
Admin: Please explain your Eternal Engine time.
SonicKudos: I spindashed and [rest of post here].
Admin: You made that up on the spot. Banned.
If we keep the BS posts small and civil, then we won't need to hear any more new member cries of "I'm scared to submit, I might be banned". The mob mentality makes us look like jerks, even if we are 100% justified.
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Plus we must add write-in candidates. Question: how long will said individual's term last? <_<
No, we definitely must not have write-ins. This is not a popularity contest., and it's probably not even a vote in the one person, one vote sense (I expect Rolken will end up having a large say, as at the very least his opinions are highly respected here, and, well, it's still his site, he can do what he wants with it). There's no point asking someone to run TSC if they don't want to. If a few people set themselves up as wanting to, then it can be settled between them in a reasonable manner.
What I want to see from the person who is, basically, taking charge of TSC, is someone who wants to do it, is capable of doing it, and has the support of the community behind him or her. They need to try to repair some of the divisions in the TSC community right now, and try make it attractive to new people. They need to encourage more excitement in the competition (which I love douglas's idea for, btw).
It's disappointing that Rolken is stepping down, but we need to use this as an opportunity to breathe new life into TSC and all get back to having fun!
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I am quite sad about this. :'(
Rolken, we were talking about your great ideas to improve TSC a few weeks ago. You said that you would add those new features to the site gradually. How is it that you have changed your mind in such a short period of time?
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Plus we must add write-in candidates. Question: how long will said individual's term last? <_<
No, we definitely must not have write-ins. This is not a popularity contest., and it's probably not even a vote in the one person, one vote sense (I expect Rolken will end up having a large say, as at the very least his opinions are highly respected here, and, well, it's still his site, he can do what he wants with it).
You know that any vote is going to come down to a popularity contest...
Also I too fully endorse this rivalries thing. It might actually get me back into competing maybe. I don't know. The main problems that TSC's had though can be summed up thusly:
1. New Sonic games suck in post people's opinions. Now granted I happen to like what they did with the Wii/PS2 version of Unleashed (as a matter of fact, before I got bored of it I did actually compete in that. (I almost have a blueless times chart. The only other 3D game where I have that feat is lolheroes.) But the main thing is that the new suck games usually have some quickly discovered bug/glitch that breaks competition right away. Speaking of which...
2. The old games that actually are good are mostly broken to the point where times nearly match their TAS equivalents. Once it was discovered that a ton of S1 levels were destroyed beyond destruction due to the new magic wall-zips (which started with SB3 and MZ2), frankly it ruined any hope I had of competing. I'm not a fan of huge glitches like that, and I've made it known. But either way, unless something gets broken even more, there's little hope for competition on that aspect.
I do think flyby's leagues are a step in the right direction. While interest did wane towards the end, a few things might fix that. (One idea I just thought about was grouping players by their sitewides and having rankings based off that. Proposed: Orange Up, Yellow, Green, Blue based on average sitewide.) Another thing might be working on reviving something similar to the SA2B challenges of old. With the embargo method created for the league, it's quite possible to have a "daily challenge" where submissions are open for that day only. I for one think it'd be pretty cool.
Plus doing random stupid shit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RK5CFBKFK0) has always been a pastime of mine. >_>
(Sidenote: I need to get around to making a vid of MP1K doing that at one point...)
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Strongly voicing that we hate BSing isn't the problem. The problem is that people get involved in BS calls that they shouldn't need to. Consider the case of SonicKudos (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=4387.0), who started explaining his Eternal Engine time by saying he spindashes in a set place. We didn't need anybody to say "hey, this level isn't played as Sonic"... he can back himself into a corner on his own. Yet the topic gets people throwing other false stats at him other than the one the topic concerns, and people telling him how to get proof of his stats. This topic could've been handled in three posts.
Admin: Please explain your Eternal Engine time.
SonicKudos: I spindashed and [rest of post here].
Admin: You made that up on the spot. Banned.
If we keep the BS posts small and civil, then we won't need to hear any more new member cries of "I'm scared to submit, I might be banned". The mob mentality makes us look like jerks, even if we are 100% justified.
Well I only have to say to people who think that... don't post false times and you won't be banned. It's not like you guys ban people without a reason.
Oh and to this list of things that could be here on TSC I'd like to add that a way to incorporate the newer players as well as not alienating the older member. Like the group harmony thing.
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Seeing as Rolken set the ban but doesn't want to discuss why, and neither does anyone else with chatroom power and the knowledge seemingly:
Hey Stefan why are you banned from irc?
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Well, I can't think of anything useful or inspirational to add to the discussion, so I'll just reply to the topic.
- I'm currently halfway through a computer science major, so I know some programming. Not impressive, but I am willing to offer some light help here if that's desirable. I agree that while Gerbil is doing a great job with the code and maintenance, it's inconsiderate to leave him with the entire burden here - coding is time consuming, no matter how you look at it.
- As a fairly experienced TSC member and semi-power user, I will try to help out with site functions more often. Things like reading and replying to rules discussions, helping with leaderboard dispute cases, and so on. I am also interested in making the site more friendly to newcomers, so if I can think of anything along those lines then I will try to contribute. That's the extent of what I think I can do; I'm not a leader of any sort.
- I still plan to do what I can with the Mario Center, but I guess this isn't the best place to go in detail about that.
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I think Rolken means that he wants applicants to outline general philosophies concerning TSC's direction instead of something specific like an outline of prospective rules; the fundamental question is "where should TSC go from here?".
For whatever merit others see in my opinion, I don't think TSC is sustainable as a competition site because we don't have a large enough pool of active players (or if you want to look at this inverted, we lack sufficiently active players in the core community). And why should we expect for new members to join to replenish our numbers, mature, and improve the site dynamic? I could write extensively on this, but I don't think anybody would dispute my logic so I'll just segue to my one original point with my earlier argument as its basis. Who really cares about the competition in TSC as anything but a social function? If people admire the community itself over competition, the focus of the site, do we really need to maintain competition as our primary function? Users wouldn't leave TSC if it became a general networking grounds, because we're there right now with games of Mafia, iSketch, Settlers, Toulouse, etc. Considering this, we might perhaps become something more fluid.
It's a jump from what I said before, completely separate from my reasoning, but I suggest using TSC as a launching point for other act ivies. Maybe we could construct a group schedule, and use the site as a means of organization for doing other things. Think of this as TSC's community coordinating events: several people Brawling as dictated by the schedule, transitioning to an organized debate, later following a groupwatch of a movie, and so on. It's just centralizing what we do already.
I agree
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Okay, let's put Dhaos in charge of the site.
NOT WHILE I STILL HAVE BREATH IN MY BODY!
/me shot
Also I'd love to add something constructive to this but I really can't, aside from I'd probably be the go-to guy for Advance 3 and not much else.
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I agree
Rule 1 about posting. Two-word posts contribute nothing. You obviously don't know what's going on.
In theory I can program too, but I don't really know PHP at all. (I'm a software engineer, not a coder.) This doesn't mean that I can't do some conceptual work though. Most of the base is already done, but in the case of random new functionality (my challenge suggestion is a good example) I can come up with a base to leave someone else with the boring chore of coding.
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I agree
Rule 1 about posting. Two-word posts contribute nothing. You obviously don't know what's going on.
I agree
With regards to programming, I think most of us that are volunteering are smart enough to learn, at the very least. I just can't say "o hi I know some 68k ASM, can I help design your website?":P If Gerbil wants help, I hope he's prepared to give free lessons, because I don't know anybody here who's familiar with PHP.
Since everybody's detailing how they'd bring life into TSC with new features and whatnot, I think we need to get Tournament Central up and running again. The old tournaments got people competing for a while. Granted, they were silly and lost interest near the end... but nobody got pissed off about them like they did as the Leagues (both RPG's and flyby's, for different reasons) drew to a close. The biggest follies with the tournaments and leagues was that they took too long from start to finish, and the challenges were arbitrary what with not everybody doing the same tasks. I've had an idea in mind for a more concrete tournament basis that addresses both of these issues and still plays to everybody's different strengths at some point throughout, and given the recent talk of "philosophy" and "site direction", I will probably attempt to implement it shortly. Hopefully, it doesn't interfere with the Summer League, but interest in that seems a bit low due to waning interest from the prior League. :(
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With regards to programming, I think most of us that are volunteering are smart enough to learn, at the very least. I just can't say "o hi I know some 68k ASM, can I help design your website?":P If Gerbil wants help, I hope he's prepared to give free lessons, because I don't know anybody here who's familiar with PHP.
I can teach PHP and OO coding in general; when I said I was rusty, what I meant was I have a couple of years of solid experience (I've written a forum from scratch, high-performance caching for a 500K hits/month site, and been paid to mod osCommerce amongst other things) but I haven't touched it in maybe 3 years, aside from a couple of small pet projects (lolnoobometer). It'll take me a bit to get fully up to speed (plus I'd have to learn the codebase which will be non-trivial). The same goes for CSS, although my javascript-fu is pretty good.
That said, PHP's lack of static typing might cause me to have a nervous breakdown. Duck Typing makes the baby Jesus cry :(
Oooh oooh new project - port TSC to Java!/me shot
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With regards to programming, I think most of us that are volunteering are smart enough to learn, at the very least. I just can't say "o hi I know some 68k ASM, can I help design your website?":P If Gerbil wants help, I hope he's prepared to give free lessons, because I don't know anybody here who's familiar with PHP.
Oddly enough I took a class where we did some work in 68K...
But yeah I'm always willing to learn stuff. But I'd rather support porting it to Python. Java doesn't have the capabilities that TSC could really use IMO. But PHP is fine. (I just know Python.)
Also I'm not sure if tournaments are the way to go or not. The thing is garnering the interest of the community. Problem is if the good players join then the newer players who don't know as many peeps or as many tricks are excluded, ousted in the early rounds and kinda left out. I do kinda want to see TSC venture out into a more casual Sonic player too; that's why I suggested the challenges revival in the first place. (I'd be willing to head that, by the way.) And by casual, I'm looking for people like myself; they play for fun, compete when they feel like it/at what they're good at, but in general aren't hardcore competitors. I don't want to detract from our standard of excellence, obviously, but we probably could be a little less elitist.
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^ I'd say that the tournaments and leagues get initial interest pretty well... they just don't hold it. This suggests to me that we enjoy competing directly against each other under pressure as a distraction from the static rankings, but something is fundamentally wrong about the formats of the tournaments that causes dropouts and anger. The format I'm considering contains no elimination of competitors (although you can still get pretty far behind if you're lazy), yet still gives you a reason to do well all throughout the tournament instead of waiting until the last round to blow by n00bs. It's going to be catering towards people who can access the site at least once every two or three days (i.e. most everybody who actively competes), with short deadlines to get challenges done. The challenges themselves will be limited to a short timeframe that starts as soon as a player finds out what the challenge is (as with Tournament 1/2), to drive out some of the memorization. I'll be going out of my way to add different restrictions to the rules or alter the games themselves to further that cause.
Granted, I still don't think this format will be perfect. It's going to take a few more tournaments before we find out how to satisfy everybody on a site devoted to a game franchise with an unpleasable fanbase. But I do think that when this format is found, we'll draw up enough competitive play to keep TSC truckin' for a while.
I call them... Thornaments. *shot*
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Personally, I like the idea of clans or rivalries. My best speedrunning I've ever done was against the Quadrinity in S1MMv2 and against Eredani in S1MMv4. Both times, someone looked at my records and said "I can't beat that!" and I repeatedly made them understand that they could not ^_^
those were back-and-forth record-holdings that were somewhat ridiculous and also awesome... in both cases, even though I came out on top, I cut the time to ~1/2 of what it originally was.
The big thing here is that I refuse to play against people I don't like or think are innately better than me... I don't know how many people here feel this way, I'm just throwing out thoughts
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But yeah I'm always willing to learn stuff. But I'd rather support porting it to Python. Java doesn't have the capabilities that TSC could really use IMO. But PHP is fine. (I just know Python.)
WUT? What can python do that Java can't? I'll grant you, web dev in an interpreted language can be quicker (at least if you're working in a small team with a small codebase; I maintain static typing is the only sane path for large teams/codebases), but as languages they're equally capable. If we're talking what frontend libraries are available then sure python has web-oriented stuff like django, but java's no slouch - webwork, gwt and so forth; if we're talking productionisation (servers, containers, request handling, ...), then again they're really damn similar in terms of what's available.
PHP's a different kettle of fish - its major benefit is that the core libs are targeted at web developers and that it's installed like everywhere; the downside is that it has fugly syntax, a frankly lacking development community (and I say this as a former semi-active member of said community), and quite often a disregard for good OO design paradigms.
Now look, you've made me derail this thread with a programming language Holy War >:o Someone get us back on topic, or failing that post a funny image <_<
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Ok programming crap aside...
The main thing shouldn't be on the technical side. We need to garner interest in TSC again. That was my main thing with the challenges.
Also I do not have a nonsensical image to post as I am lazy.
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Also I do not have a nonsensical image to post as I am lazy.
Allow me.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/6080/sofamobile.png) (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/sofamobile.png/)
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Part of TSC ruled by werey.... would be the TSC doomsday :o
But really.. i would.. but it would never happen anyway
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all else being equal, someone with a DC will do better on City Escape rings than someone with a GC.
"All else being equal, these two things being different changes the stats!"
Yes, only playing half the game means you can only max half the stats...
If you can't play because you don't have the money, too bad... no one cares that, if I went to tournaments, I would often win, because I don't have money, but you don't see ME crying over it, now do you?
sorry, really bad mood today...
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^ Minus was referencing one of Stefan's points, not voicing an opinion -- Stefan had made the claim that skill should be the main factor in ordering stats by rank, and this was a counterexample. There was nothing for you to respond to there. If your mood is so bad that you can't read the context of the post before responding to it, perhaps you shouldn't click "Reply".
...God, I feel like the forum police, but somebody had to say it. :(
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THORN FOR OVERLORD
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Also, it primarily references the fact that, the primary OTHER case where spending money would potentially improve rankings is SU360, which we decided to have separate charts for. Eh, no big deal, I forgive you.
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Wow, I thought I'd come back and check up on the site and I see this news update. Quite saddening, but this site really did hold up pretty well. Rolken, whatever you do, you should be very proud of what you have achieved with this website. Not only did you create a place for healthy competition in Sonic games but you helped create a community of people and long time friends. I wish I could do something to help, but my absence has been way too long for me to know anything about Sonic gaming anymore.
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omg a sonicam :O
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Yes sir, hey RPG, sad that you guys are leaving. :[
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Considering I'm around pretty often, have tons of free time, and am fairly competitively active, I'll volunteer for doing various work with the site's functions like adding charts etc. Wish there was more I could do but I don't really have the skills/knowledge for anything else needed so yeah <_<
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Something about this saddens me quite deeply. While I never really got to know Rolken* or Yse this is still the first time I've seen prominent members members leave (although I'm sure it's happened before.) What I really like about this place is it didn't have a hundred mods and a tyranical leader with a stalin 'stache and a jewel encrusted banhammer**, and yet it still felt like a nice community where things I did that my IRL friends would be like "lolwut?"*** about can be appreciated and while a miniscule minority of the world sees the chart I'm trying to clambor up, it makes me feel kind of improtant in a weird way. I'm sacred what a power vaccume could do to taht but I think it will work out all right. I'm not going to nominate myself for anything besides possibly cour jester, a guy there for comic relief who is funny when he fails rather than when he's actually trying to be funny.
*While I don't know him that well I did get a sense that he really acred about the community with the "new tsc member experience" topic
** If anyone wants to photoshop a picture of that I would love to see it.
*** Yes my friends uses lolwut in their spoken english.
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*** Yes my friends uses lolwut in their spoken english.
i use most meme's in spoken ingrish so they're not out of place >_>
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** If anyone wants to photoshop a picture of that I would love to see it.
OLD
There's a PSd Magic card for it somewhere ... I haven't seen it in awhile though.
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^ Minus was referencing one of Stefan's points, not voicing an opinion -- Stefan had made the claim that skill should be the main factor in ordering stats by rank, and this was a counterexample. There was nothing for you to respond to there. If your mood is so bad that you can't read the context of the post before responding to it, perhaps you shouldn't click "Reply".
...God, I feel like the forum police, but somebody had to say it. :(
I feel like there was something for me to reply to, because he views stats of the game in a very different way than our charts do. A lot of people do, and it annoys the piss out of me.
If you don't own a game, you can't compete in it. the SA series is interesting because you have to have two consoles and two disks before you HAVE THE WHOLE GAME.
I was discrediting it as a counterexample because it has incorrect premises.
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I don't own Sonic Battle and I have submitted stats for it.
I don't own Sonic Pocket Adventure and I am Champion of it.
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damnit rpg stop posing as mike
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I don't own Sonic Battle and I have submitted stats for it.
I don't own Sonic Pocket Adventure and I am Champion of it.
Umm... ROMs are the same as the game, and you have ROMs, so yes, you do have the game
dur.
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Not in the legal word!
(http://doulifee.com//Storage/aceatt/GyakutenHeroes/1-ani-phoenix-document.gif)
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damnit rpg stop posing as mike
I second this.
Also I call BS, RPG loses every championship he gains within days of gaining it.