The Sonic Center

Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Rules Revisions => Topic started by: DsSaster on June 12, 2009, 01:45:19 pm

Title: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: DsSaster on June 12, 2009, 01:45:19 pm
I believe that all night scores for Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 should be removed from the charts, if not that at least any stage which has a "Big Mother" or a "Healing Wizard" in the level.  This is because with combo bonuses, one can obtain infinitely many points.  I have made a video showing an example of how combo bonuses can be used to get an ass load of points, and the process can be repeated again by dropping your combo once it reaches the max (9999). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elK7onwe2hE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elK7onwe2hE) 

With that said, let the discussion begin!

*pull up a chair*
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: SonicAD on June 12, 2009, 01:49:11 pm
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: GerbilSoft on June 12, 2009, 01:55:00 pm
IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT NINE THOUSAND?
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on June 12, 2009, 02:51:18 pm
On a more serious note...

All of these levels have either Big Mothers or Healing Wizards in them, and thus will require nuking of their score charts:

Savannah Citadel 2
Cool Edge 1
Dragon Road 1
Dragon Road 2
Rooftop Run 1
Arid Sands 1
Jungle Joyride 1
Jungle Joyride 2
Eggmanland and a whole mess of other shit (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=4386.msg47878#msg47878)

DLC:
Dragon Road 1-2
Dragon Road 3
Rooftop Run 2
Cool Edge 2
Cool Edge 3
Savannah Citadel 3
Windmill Isle 1-2
Windmill Isle 1-3
Arid Sands 2
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Cutiefox on June 12, 2009, 03:08:02 pm
This could be a convenience. >:/ Removing them would be good, I think, but only for the stages above.
But then if someone has a low strength level, they could get more hits in a combo...would that be a problem?
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: josh on June 12, 2009, 03:17:08 pm
nice 9999 combo
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: josh on June 12, 2009, 03:19:18 pm
you can use this to get that trophy achive 10,000 combos
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on June 12, 2009, 08:01:09 pm
This could be a convenience. >:/ Removing them would be good, I think, but only for the stages above.
But then if someone has a low strength level, they could get more hits in a combo...would that be a problem?

It doesn't break scores at all.  Though you can get a higher combo, there aren't infinite point possibilities unless one of the above enemies are assisting.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 12, 2009, 08:10:56 pm
the wizards that spawn rexes break scores too.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on June 12, 2009, 08:24:40 pm
The only one I saw and noted on my checks was on Dragon Road 3, but that one summoned 2 Dark Frights that it could revive (which I was unable to combo).

edit: All of these ones spawn Dark Frights, but they're impossible to combo (plus their revival does nothing to help).
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: DBG on June 12, 2009, 09:55:46 pm
On a more serious note...

All of these levels have either Big Mothers or Healing Wizards in them, and thus will require nuking of their score charts:

Savannah Citadel 2
Cool Edge 1
Dragon Road 1
Dragon Road 2
Rooftop Run 1
Arid Sands 1
Jungle Joyride 1
Jungle Joyride 2

DLC:
Dragon Road 1-2
Dragon Road 3
Rooftop Run 2
Cool Edge 2
Cool Edge 3
Savannah Citadel 3
Windmill Isle 1-2
Windmill Isle 1-3
Arid Sands 2

Eggmanland has those Healing Wizards as well.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on June 12, 2009, 10:01:29 pm
It also has respawning rings.

who's bright idea was it to add that chart anyway?
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: flying fox on June 13, 2009, 07:41:24 am
It also has respawning rings.

who's bright idea was it to add that chart anyway?

EML shouldn't have been added to the score chart due to the respawning rings. Look at DR5D and one of the CE stages (both DLC) that has respawning rings in it and they don't have a score chart, so neither should EML >_>

Also I agree with DsS that the night scores should be removed or just specific ones.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 13, 2009, 09:56:19 am
eml has healing wizards + infinite health (you get it all back when you hit hourglasses and i'm betting you can easily just gtw back to where the enemies are from there) + respawning rings. the chart never should've been put up to begin with, but rpg and thorn insisted because it was too awesome not to have one or something. >_> in any case, it's broken in a number of ways now.

i'm also inclined to say remove all night scores, just because this makes it all seem so ridiculous, but i guess as long as they're not infinite... :/
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Bilan on June 13, 2009, 10:56:03 am
Once again those darn black folk have ruined it all!

Come Thorn, let us scheme some more in the HindenPG
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 13, 2009, 01:40:58 pm
I'm confused. We operate on good faith about respawning rings in Sonic 1, and on respawning point-giving objects/enemies in most all of the Genesis Sonic games. We placed down rules to cap such things in Sonic Adventure 1/2 as well, and in Sonic Rivals 1/2. So why do we need to completely scrap charts for this? Is it really impossible to set a cutoff point after which we say "okay, you can't spam this more"? Or are we just catering to idiots that don't read the rules?

Yet, even though getting official updates for the game disallows certain time-saving glitches, we continue to allow said glitches on the charts instead of adding them to the rules as banned. Why in the world are we banning combos that can be spammed in the normal game instead of just capping them, but allowing things that Sonic Team has since disallowed?

tl;dr: The way you guys are designing the rules for this game is completely bass-ackwards compared to the rest of TSC.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 07:59:53 am
Is it really impossible to set a cutoff point after which we say "okay, you can't spam this more"?

Not spamming something that happens every time you fight an enemy in a game that is based on combat isn't very easy. A cutoff point would still need to be high because with low strength it'll take quite a bit to kill enemies in later levels even if you aren't trying to scalp, leading to higher combo bonuses (and this couldn't be banned because there are probably a lot of people who'd want to submit stats they got on their first playthrough; scores are still presumably broken anyway though, just takes longer), and things like big mothers/wizards spawning enemies and wizards healing other enemies is something that could end up adding to your score but is completely out of your control. Between that and the fact that you can't even see your combo score until you finish the level makes a cap a bit hard to implement.

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Yet, even though getting official updates for the game disallows certain time-saving glitches, we continue to allow said glitches on the charts instead of adding them to the rules as banned. Why in the world are we banning combos that can be spammed in the normal game instead of just capping them, but allowing things that Sonic Team has since disallowed?

This is really no different than a version difference in any game; just more fair because all you have to do is unpatch the game to get the version with the glitch, without having to buy another game/console. Sonic Team has disallowed accessing the extra capsule in Final Egg since SA1, or some of the old strats for Casinopolis. Are you basically suggesting that we should ban every trick that doesn't work on every version of a game?
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: EngiNerd on June 14, 2009, 02:04:35 pm
You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 02:26:58 pm
Not spamming something that happens every time you fight an enemy in a game that is based on combat isn't very easy. A cutoff point would still need to be high because with low strength it'll take quite a bit to kill enemies in later levels even if you aren't trying to scalp, leading to higher combo bonuses (and this couldn't be banned because there are probably a lot of people who'd want to submit stats they got on their first playthrough; scores are still presumably broken anyway though, just takes longer), and things like big mothers/wizards spawning enemies and wizards healing other enemies is something that could end up adding to your score but is completely out of your control. Between that and the fact that you can't even see your combo score until you finish the level makes a cap a bit hard to implement.

For a low-strength run, the points earned by low combos is somewhere near the amount of time bonus you're losing not killing enemies faster with a higher strength. In order to really get large amounts of extra points, you *have* to spam something. You have to get a combo of 101 to even earn 1000 points. There's a clear distinction between deliberately going for combo bonuses and getting them accidently.

This is really no different than a version difference in any game; just more fair because all you have to do is unpatch the game to get the version with the glitch, without having to buy another game/console. Sonic Team has disallowed accessing the extra capsule in Final Egg since SA1, or some of the old strats for Casinopolis. Are you basically suggesting that we should ban every trick that doesn't work on every version of a game?

Well, we've already begun --  there's a sparse few glitches that work on Sonic & Knuckles Collection and Sonic Jam that don't work in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and said glitches are "unofficially banned" (note: this isn't what the "functional changes to level layout" clause is referring to -- there's much bigger alterations to certain aspects of Sonic Jam to which this applies). We don't track Special Stages for Sonic 3D Blast because they differ between versions. A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.

If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: EngiNerd on June 14, 2009, 04:21:50 pm
A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.
I *still* wonder why we haven't done this one differently yet.  Particularly now that we have SU as an example.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: DBG on June 14, 2009, 04:42:21 pm
You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.

SU360/PS3 and SUWii/PS2 may be different versions with 360/PS3 having an extra area... but the two versions have two separate charts.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on June 14, 2009, 04:44:36 pm
You can't get Empire City on the Wii/PS2 version.  Therefore it should be banned.

SU360/PS3 and SUWii/PS2 may be different versions with 360/PS3 having an extra area... but the two versions have two separate charts.

SUWii is actually a horrible example, since not only does SU360 have an extra area, both versions run on completely different engines.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: EngiNerd on June 14, 2009, 05:04:12 pm
Quote from: Minus the Antiporcupine's Profile
Most Sarcastic Member of the Year
(http://s2.buzzfeed.com/static/imagebuzz/terminal01/2009/2/23/15/captain-obvious-1467-1235422671-15.jpg)
I've been waiting for an excuse to use that one.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 07:20:51 pm
For a low-strength run, the points earned by low combos is somewhere near the amount of time bonus you're losing not killing enemies faster with a higher strength. In order to really get large amounts of extra points, you *have* to spam something. You have to get a combo of 101 to even earn 1000 points. There's a clear distinction between deliberately going for combo bonuses and getting them accidently.

In areas with tons of enemies like WI1-3 you can easily rack up a 200-300 combo even with maxed strength. I wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 1000+ without trying there if you don't have strength leveled at all. You'd still be forced to spam to reach a cap in any case.

Another thing is that considering all the levels vary greatly in terms of length and number of enemies, a cap would have to be on a level-by-level basis.

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Well, we've already begun --  there's a sparse few glitches that work on Sonic & Knuckles Collection and Sonic Jam that don't work in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, and said glitches are "unofficially banned" (note: this isn't what the "functional changes to level layout" clause is referring to -- there's much bigger alterations to certain aspects of Sonic Jam to which this applies). We don't track Special Stages for Sonic 3D Blast because they differ between versions.

From what I've heard that's because the versions of the game that have those glitches are fairly rare. Not tracking stages that are completely different between versions makes sense. Neither of these are the case with any of the glitches in su360; it's just a glitch that existed in the original release, that was removed later, which essentially makes it no different than a version difference; just easier because everyone has access to both versions.

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A funny exception to the rules is Sonic 1 8-bit: there are different level layouts between the versions of the game, and we track them both on the same charts.

Which we probably shouldn't.

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If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.

I don't see where you're getting that you should be able to submit times from a heavily glitched completely bastardized version of a game that plays nothing like the original because we're not banning a glitch in su360.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 08:05:06 pm
In areas with tons of enemies like WI1-3 you can easily rack up a 200-300 combo even with maxed strength. I wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 1000+ without trying there if you don't have strength leveled at all. You'd still be forced to spam to reach a cap in any case.

Another thing is that considering all the levels vary greatly in terms of length and number of enemies, a cap would have to be on a level-by-level basis.

This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area? I don't know anywhere in the game where the game throws hoardes of respawning enemies at you that you can accidentally combo, save maybe an area near the end of Eggmanland (and this would obiously be a case of combo spam --  the enemies in said area give zero points for defeating them), and of course comboing enemies that exist a finite amount of times is a perfectly legal strat.

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If you want to try to equate patched and unpatched to different versions of the game, then I reserve the right to submit to Sonic 1 charts using Sonic Genesis for Game Boy Advance, in the Original Mode that does not contain the Spin Dash.

I don't see where you're getting that you should be able to submit times from a heavily glitched completely bastardized version of a game that plays nothing like the original because we're not banning a glitch in su360.

It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game. Despite the blatant... horribleness, everything else about it fits all of TSC's rules -- both the explicitly stated ones and the "well you should just know that's a rule" ones.



On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.



EDIT: Also Zeupar, if you're still reading this topic, put up the damned Rivals 2 rule already. It's been months. :P
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 08:16:16 pm
This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area?

That was in response to your idea that we should cap combo bonus instead of removing charts where infinite is possible; I'm bring up issues with implementing a cap.

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It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game.

Because it essentially IS. It's a slightly different version of the same level. The level layout is exactly the same, as is the way the engine functions/works. The only difference is the presence of an invisible wall. How is it any different just because it was released over XBL? How about if they released a patch that made a functional change to the engine? Would you argue that we should wipe all the charts?

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On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.

Then I'd argue that said glitches should be allowed.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 08:26:49 pm
This is confusing: how does the debate over the ability to spam respawning enemies have anything to do with the amount of normal enemies in an area?

That was in response to your idea that we should cap combo bonus instead of removing charts where infinite is possible; I'm bring up issues with implementing a cap.

It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule. To the best of my knowledge, there are no respawning enemies of one type within combo distance of those of another type  (e.g. there aren't any infinitely respawning Rex enemies right next to a Big Mother that infinitely spawns enemies), so the rule wouldn't even have to consider the case of linking the two combos together. Of course, there could be one odd case that I'm not remembering, but banning the majority of instances due to one minority is silly -- THAT would be a case where you'd remove the individual level from the chart, such as Hot Shelter - Gamma in Sonic Adventure.

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It's not the matter of "banning a glitch" that I'm pursuing -- it's the matter of treating the patch for it as a different version of the game.

Because it essentially IS. It's a slightly different version of the same level. The level layout is exactly the same, as is the way the engine functions/works. How is it any different just because it was released over XBL? How about if they released a patch that made a functional change to the engine? Would you argue that we should wipe all the charts?

Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

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On the subject of Sonic & Knuckles Collection and the two disc versions of Sonic 3D Blast being "rare": a quick Google search for those three games revealed downloads for all of them, and Saturn emulation on PCs has gotten to the point that it can be run at full speed.

Then I'd argue that said glitches should be allowed.

But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

...I, of course, say yes, else I'd've never brought up the example in the first place.~
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 08:41:06 pm
It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule.

In areas with respawning enemies, what? You aren't allowed to combo off them? that's a bit difficult. >_> If a Big Mother happens to spawn enemies then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. If a wizard happens to heal an enemy you're in the process of trying to kill then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. Implementing a rule only makes sense when it's something that a player has to do deliberately; and while you may not be able to get combos in the 1000+ range without deliberately spamming them, there's still minor differences of a few thousand points that vary based on whether some of the above happens. For a rule to work you'd basically have to say that a Big Mother isn't allowed to spawn enemies in your run, or wizards aren't allowed to heal enemies, etc. And it's more likely to happen when you have low strength and are trying to rack up a combo bonus as high as possible without getting anything that could lead to infinite to occur.

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Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

That makes no sense then, to force everyone to redo their stats with the new version especially when the game will still have old stats that are no longer possible saved on the stats screen. Nobody wants to compete in a game where their stats could be wiped at a moment's notice because SonicTeam decided to patch something.

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But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

I would say no based on that the game's already been around for a while anyway... though now I'm thinking if there should be some sort of cutoff point as to when new versions of the same game should stop being allowed on the same charts, eg. if they released a new version of a Genesis game where every level has some sort of new glitch where you can skip straight to the end or something. Or even a case like S1GBA, though that version is different enough that it doesn't play even close to the original.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores... and S3&K/S1/S3D versions...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 09:41:46 pm
It's not difficult at all to put "In areas with respawning enemies..." at the start of the statement laying down the rule.

In areas with respawning enemies, what? You aren't allowed to combo off them? that's a bit difficult. >_> If a Big Mother happens to spawn enemies then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. If a wizard happens to heal an enemy you're in the process of trying to kill then you'll get a higher score and there's nothing you can do about it. Implementing a rule only makes sense when it's something that a player has to do deliberately; and while you may not be able to get combos in the 1000+ range without deliberately spamming them, there's still minor differences of a few thousand points that vary based on whether some of the above happens. For a rule to work you'd basically have to say that a Big Mother isn't allowed to spawn enemies in your run, or wizards aren't allowed to heal enemies, etc. And it's more likely to happen when you have low strength and are trying to rack up a combo bonus as high as possible without getting anything that could lead to infinite to occur.

You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

While I've got it on my mind, accidental breaking of the rules has never been an excuse before. I've lost countless good ring attacks due to accidentally trigger Super/Hyper status or entering a bonus/special stage.

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Yes. Yes I would. Or rather, I'd request the game be split into two charts if people really wanted to play with both versions of the main engine.

That makes no sense then, to force everyone to redo their stats with the new version especially when the game will still have old stats that are no longer possible saved on the stats screen. Nobody wants to compete in a game where their stats could be wiped at a moment's notice because SonicTeam decided to patch something.

Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

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But that's only one of the issues: would you also argue for the addition of the version-different charts, given the newfound availablity of the games? Plenty of people have said "no" for the reason that the charts wouldn't see any new competition... if a chart has x total competitors, less than x/10 competitors actively play. Unleashed DLC is nearing this limit already, and the latest pack just came out last week.

I would say no based on that the game's already been around for a while anyway... though now I'm thinking if there should be some sort of cutoff point as to when new versions of the same game should stop being allowed on the same charts, eg. if they released a new version of a Genesis game where every level has some sort of new glitch where you can skip straight to the end or something. Or even a case like S1GBA, though that version is different enough that it doesn't play even close to the original.

The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores... and S3&K/S1/S3D versions...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 09:51:27 pm
You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

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Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

No, but banning a trick that the best stats have to use because it was patched out and then wiping the charts would. >_>

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The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.

No, I'm referring to new releases. Just thinking if a new version of a game came out where much lower times were possible long after the original came out it wouldn't seem fair to track them on the same charts... but there's also not much point to having separate charts for every single different version of a game (I'm thinking we'd have Sonic 1, Sonic 1 Cell Phone, Sonic 1 GBA, etc...).
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores... and S3&K/S1/S3D versions...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 10:03:58 pm
You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

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Having two charts would require people's stats to be wiped? One chart would allow the glitch, the other wouldn't. There's been a slew of people around TSC asking for shortcut/non-shortcut divisions, and this seems even more practical due to the fact that it's using two different "versions" of the same level, as you put it.

No, but banning a trick that the best stats have to use because it was patched out and then wiping the charts would. >_>

Then don't wipe them, and have both, or something. This point still all comes down to whether you consider patches to be equivalent to separate, released versions of the game, and since neither of us are budging, we're going nowhere./me moves on to the next point.

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The fact that the game's been around for a while dictates whether or not new charts can be added? We've added Special charts for Rush, Heroes, and Chaotix long after charts for said games were first created. While there's not a whole lot of competition, what little there is is from the people who care about competing in the game (champions, high-ranked people, and people who just plain like the game). We're not here to pamper to the people who stopped competing in a game, we're here to cater to those that are competing in it right now.

No, I'm referring to new releases. Just thinking if a new version of a game came out where much lower times were possible long after the original came out it wouldn't seem fair to track them on the same charts... but there's also not much point to having separate charts for every single different version of a game (I'm thinking we'd have Sonic 1, Sonic 1 Cell Phone, Sonic 1 GBA, etc...).

I was making that statement regarding the Sonic 3D versions, though, not new releases. The Unleashed DLC was an example of new charts for a game not garnering much interest, as a response to you being against adding full Sonic 3D charts.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores... and S3&K/S1/S3D versions...
Post by: Groudon on June 14, 2009, 10:05:58 pm
You've completely misunderstood me. The full rule would be something along the lines of "In areas with respawning enemies, you cannot achieve a combo of more than ___." I am NOT saying you cannot hit respawning enemies at all. I'm simply proposing a limitation to how often. Set the blank at a number that still lets you finish off the Big Mother or whatever with your low-strength werehog and permits accidental hits, but that gives a low enough combo bonus to not be much different than killing the Big Mother quickly and saving Time Bonus points.

eh maybe that would work... but saying "you can't get a combo higher than x" still doesn't limit how many times you can get that combo.

Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

Remember that you cannot see your total combo bonus until after you finish the level.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 10:10:56 pm
^ Your bonus for a specific combo shows up as soon as you achieve the bonus. For example, as soon as you get, say, 11 hits, the game displays a message under the combo counter saying "BONUS     100". The cap wouldn't be ridiculously high, so if your combo does break and you can't figure out if multiple combos summed together exceed the cap, you probably belong at a Sonic site with a lower average IQ. :P

EDIT: Maybe my wording isn't clear. The combo bonus cap is what you earn against a specific respawning situation (Big Mother, Rexes, whatever), not for the entire level.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores... and S3&K/S1/S3D versions...
Post by: Parax on June 14, 2009, 10:11:12 pm
Then phrase it in terms of total combo bonus earned instead of the combo itself. Voila.

Like Groudon said you can't see it until you finish the level, and it would vary greatly based on level because levels are not exactly the same in terms of how long they are/how many enemies there are/what enemies.

Quote
I was making that statement regarding the Sonic 3D versions, though, not new releases. The Unleashed DLC was an example of new charts for a game not garnering much interest, as a response to you being against adding full Sonic 3D charts.

I'm not against S3DB having special stage charts if there's a decent way to implement them.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 14, 2009, 10:13:21 pm
^ Regarding your first point, see my previous post.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Stefan on June 18, 2009, 12:34:10 pm
Thorn, I have one argument.

Hot Shelter - Gamma.

Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 18, 2009, 01:02:50 pm
^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither.

Regardless, I've already given up the argument, as it's become FKE+Parax+DsS+Groudon vs. me. They can do what they will with it.

What I do want to know is why it's legit to score scalp in Hill Top in a similar manner, but not Lava Reef. Hell, any level in Sonic Advance 2 lets you score scalp by doing midair actions over and over, and I see no ruling on that.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Stefan on June 18, 2009, 01:18:35 pm

"^ Gamma's time bonus went UP while you executed the trick, and hit a maximum score. This does neither, so it's not really the same situation: you're trading one type of score bonus for another."

I fail to see your point with gamma's time bonus; my argument is that this case is extremely similar to the HS-G time charts we ended up obsoleting because instituting arbitrary limitations was effectively impossible. Of course the time bonus went up; I'm not comparing HS-G score and these scores, I'm comparing HS-G time and these scores. Either you
a.) Leave it how it is, leaving potential for maximum scores of 99:99:59 and 999999 respectively.
b.) institute arbitrary limits. In the case of HS-G it was you can't hit a switch more than once, you're proposing an -extremely- difficult to word rule about the maximum combo points in a particular region comboed off healed or respawned enemies. This was the HS-G case for several months before we realized that the rule was impossible to enforce, difficult to play effectively, and not stirring competition.
c.) Obsolete the levels with score scalping techniques. This is the current case with HS-G. Keep in mind, it was extremely possible to make a rule imposing a limit on the maximum scalping you can do in the level, but that didn't keep competition or make the chart seem reasonable.

If you impose an arbitrary limit on how much you can scalp from combos in a certain part of a level (each one would have to be individually defined in the rules), then you just get infinite scores up to that point. If you're playing through werehog levels for score, especially on level 1 strength, you're probably not getting a huge time bonus. The lost time for scalping is not going to be too consequential.

Anyway, this situation is entirely similar to HS-G. In HS-G, doing a particular, entirely innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly provided for infinite statistics (in this case time, but I'd say it's very comparable to scores because of the way it increases through actions). In this situation, doing a particular, innocent, unavoidable action repeatedly can get you infinite statistics (or at least to the maximum tsc is capable of displaying scores.

Do you want to handle the two cases differently?

Also, in that little side argument going on:

Do we ban the final egg sonic trick in sa1 because sonic team patched it in sadx? You can't reach the capsule in sadx because sonic team made minor changes to the level that only affect whether or not that particular exploit can be carried out. It is this that paraxade is drawing the version difference comparison from. And, to be honest, I entirely agree with him.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 18, 2009, 02:05:05 pm
Again, I'm done arguing the Unleashed scores. I'm sorry you were banned from chat to see the point that made me concede, but I'm not arguing my case any further, because I've been proven wrong. However, since you're hankering for a good debate, here you go:



Your point c states that levels with score scalping techniques should be banned. I'm extremely unsure of myself on the Sonic Advance 2 case, since the TSC scores records are 100000+ points, and that probably can't be reached in the 10-minute time limit by getting 100 from midair actions over and over. But I know Hill Top can be scalped like crazy... yet nobody's done it, presumably because nobody thinks it's competition-legal. Lava Reef and Launch Base are the precedent here with respawning enemies... the only difference here is that the numbers are large because they grow by rapid increments of 10000 instead of slow increments of 3000, but it's still possible to get an insanely large score by scalping.

Basically, what I've been trying to drive home is that there's too many "understood" conventions because we don't ever make formal statements of them, and if we made such statements, we might be able to keep some charts instead of banning them outright. The above Hill Top score scalping is a good example because nobody on TSC has done it. The whole "no tricks only possible in rare versions" thing has been an unstated rule for a while now, but the rare versions of these games have become easy to find on the Internet: imo this convention should be obsoleted, which could possibly allow for some better S3&K Times records, and would open up a Special division in Sonic 3D Blast with 28 spots to submit to. It's understood not to collect a single ring twice in Sonic 1 if they respawn, but similar stages in Unleashed are outright banned. The Hydrocity 2 bug where you don't progress to Marble Garden... does that count as a finish, or not? Is it okay to calculate a score you earned in a Time Attack mode that doesn't show the score on-screen (this was discusses already, but no ruling was ever passed)?

If you're hankering for something to argue, argue those points that haven't been resolved, instead of the one that has.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Aitamen on June 18, 2009, 05:21:52 pm
If my two cents is unwanted, feel free to delete this post:

I've always been under the assumption that scalping was legal so long as there was a time limit to hit, and that the score counter couldn't be maxed within the time limit. (LB birds + the 'botnik-standing-on-dead-thing in one of the 3D games, for examples, so far as I understand them)

As long as both points are met, it doesn't eliminate competition, imnsho.  The faster you can clear the rest of the level, the more time you have to get points.  It does become, at that point, two records for the best speedrunner, but you also have to be willing to DO such a thing, as well as being able to.

I don't think the LR thing should be banned any more than the M2 trick should be banned, or than the HT-scalping should be banned.  This applies to SAdva2 as well.

EDIT: For clarity...
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: FuzZerd on June 18, 2009, 05:46:27 pm
uh people HAVE score scalped in Hill Top zone, just look at the top scores.  90k in HT1? and 60k in HT2, with out a perfect bonus?  those scores arn't possible with out score scalping. (in addition to grabbing and killing most/all of the rings and enemies of course)
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on June 18, 2009, 06:04:22 pm
^ ...so they have.

Okay, I don't know what's legal and what's not, and have submitted 3000+ stats. Banned.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: yoshifan on June 18, 2009, 06:14:54 pm
Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC... if we're not in a rush to get the SU360 issue resolved, can we try to develop some consistent policies for scalping issues in general?  Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 30, 2009, 06:27:09 am
Are we going to come a conclusion to this one way or another anytime soon? There's been two people with 9999999 sitting on the top of the CE1N chart for a few weeks now. :(
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Luxray on June 30, 2009, 06:29:11 am
Are we going to come a conclusion to this one way or another anytime soon? There's been two people with 9999999 sitting on the top of the CE1N chart for a few weeks now. :(

Paraxade's getting jealous that he can't do it X)
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on June 30, 2009, 06:32:45 am
I could do it if I wanted to, but having scores like that up doesn't do much for convincing people of the legitimacy of the charts, not to mention it'd be a total waste of time when the scores get wiped anyway.

At the very least DsS and Groudon, can you guys revert your stats?
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: FuzZerd on June 30, 2009, 06:34:00 am
ban them! they never got that score! X)
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Luxray on June 30, 2009, 06:36:20 am
^actually they did not get -that- stat. they must be bannedlawl
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Aitamen on June 30, 2009, 01:50:25 pm
Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC...  [...] Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.

So far as I know them, with the ones that break precedent bolded, and in italics if I'm not sure about any part of it.

S1 - Marble 2 blocks - time-capped - allowed
S2 - Hill Top Rocks - time-capped - allowed
S3 - Launch Base - can max - disallowed (I've never tried it, but I assume there's more than enough time to max the counter)
S&K - Lava Reef respawn - time capped - disallowed
S&K - sign post - can max - disallowed
SA - Hot Shelter (Time) - can max - disallowed
SA - minigame infinite - can max - disallowed (Just taking this from the competition rules page)
SA2 - Cosmic Wall - can max - disallowed
SAdva 2 - all - time-capped - allowed
Rush - trick/death "abuse" - capped w/ bonus, and the scores are still technically granted to a single life - allowed


This explains the precedent argument I had prior: I thought there was a fairly solid standpoint.  Also, there may be more, or I may be mis-citing some of these, so if someone is well-versed in these or other games, please correct this list ^_^
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Ring Rush on June 30, 2009, 03:53:48 pm
Heroes scores - All score charts removed, as it was impossible to determine if current stats were scalped or not (you could get the bonus without realizing how)
SSR scores - All effected score charts removed, as it was impossible to determine if current stats were scalped or not (you could get the bonus without realizing how)

Just thought I'd add those two that you forgot, since they also set a different kind of precedent.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: FuzZerd on June 30, 2009, 06:46:24 pm
actually with 10k per enemy and 1 enemy every 5 seconds the most you can get is 1,200,000 when the score maxes at 9,999,990. even with one enemy a second that would only be 6,000,000.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: EngiNerd on July 01, 2009, 07:52:04 am
I think you're close, Aitamen, but not quite.  All except for Advance 2 and Rush (neither of which have I played), the disallowment actually also concerns how difficult it is to do the trick.  Marble 2 and Hill Top require the player to backtrack and do again, and at least in Hill Top's case (haven't tried Marble) it's actually a bit of a tossup - could you do better by just getting a time bonus?  Launch Base, on the other hand, you sit in one spot and spindash for about 8 minutes or whatever.  That destroys any element of competition.  Jury's also out on the Lava Reef case, because I wasn't aware of it until recently, and haven't investigated it myself.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: flying fox on July 01, 2009, 08:36:13 am
Well if the guys won't revert their stats, then maybe I should revert my Windmill Isle Night 1 score back (even though it isn't the record anymore). I tried to do what Dss did but obviously I'm not as good as him :(
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Parax on July 01, 2009, 12:23:31 pm
wi1n isn't as big a deal, as that stage doesn't have infinite score... ce1n does and leaving up scores that should be impossible up for so long doesn't reflect well on us.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Groudon on July 06, 2009, 04:32:14 pm
I removed my 9999999, but DsS wont just yet.

Until a decision is reached on the night levels without Big Mothers or Cure Masters (official name), I think the least that could be done is removal of all the levels with either (or both) of those enemies in them.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Nextgengamer9 on July 06, 2009, 04:39:16 pm
I personally think they should put something in the rules about this,or atleast ban the stages that have those enemies.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Firstkirbyever on July 06, 2009, 04:58:18 pm
i say we just nuke all night scores >_>
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Zeupar on July 15, 2009, 02:24:30 pm
Since it seems scalping issues have come up a lot at TSC...  [...] Maybe list all of the past and present scalping issues, and then do a compare/contrast from there.

So far as I know them, with the ones that break precedent bolded, and in italics if I'm not sure about any part of it.

S1 - Marble 2 blocks - time-capped - allowed
S2 - Hill Top Rocks - time-capped - allowed
S3 - Launch Base - can max - disallowed (I've never tried it, but I assume there's more than enough time to max the counter)
S&K - Lava Reef respawn - time capped - disallowed
S&K - sign post - can max - disallowed
SA - Hot Shelter (Time) - can max - disallowed
SA - minigame infinite - can max - disallowed (Just taking this from the competition rules page)
SA2 - Cosmic Wall - can max - disallowed
SAdva 2 - all - time-capped - allowed
Rush - trick/death "abuse" - capped w/ bonus, and the scores are still technically granted to a single life - allowed

Lava Reef's trick will be allowed because it doesn't ruin the competition; the fastest player would get the best score. Launch Base can't be maxed by comboing birds so it will be allowed as well because we need to be coherent with our principles.  If you disagree, speak now of forever hold your peace.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: FuzZerd on July 15, 2009, 02:58:36 pm
don't unban the LB1 trick! that would be retarded in my opinion.  as for the LR1 trick I don't really care if thats banned or not, at least it takes some skill to keep combo.
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Thorn on July 15, 2009, 03:04:34 pm
While I dread seeing that trick legalized, it's perfectly consistent with our other rulings to make it legal, and it doesn't cause infinite scores. It should be done, even if I don't want it. :(
Title: Re: About Sonic Unleashed PS3/360 night scores...
Post by: Zeupar on July 27, 2009, 03:45:27 pm
Lava Reef's trick will be allowed because it doesn't ruin the competition; the fastest player would get the best score. Launch Base can't be maxed by comboing birds so it will be allowed as well because we need to be coherent with our principles.  If you disagree, speak now of forever hold your peace.

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