The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: yse on November 18, 2008, 12:50:21 am
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As many of you will be well aware, over the past year or two I've been using what cunning and guile I possess to try and make TSC a better place for the rest of you... and myself, too. I've already written up two news posts on the subject which you can look through the news forum if you're so inclined.
We're now up to about a year since I last did this, so it's once again time to go over the facts and draw some conclusions.
Here's this year's activity statistics:
Monthly Summary New Topics New Posts New Members Most Online Page views
November 2008 29 540 15 22 77058
October 2008 49 829 15 27 131907
September 2008 55 1076 25 34 158155
August 2008 60 953 35 33 108713
July 2008 77 957 41 46 103356
June 2008 44 563 30 59 89758
May 2008 63 877 25 58 228222
April 2008 45 693 33 100 155656
March 2008 69 1121 27 108 139126
February 2008 85 756 33 29 126199
January 2008 96 1139 28 30 128415
November's incomplete, so ignore it. But even taking that away, and allowing for potential downtimes, it would seem that activity is going backwards. On the forum anyway.
A better measure would be statistics, since that's the part of the site that needs reviving, but I only have the amount submitted in the last week handy (376). I've seen periods where it gets as low as 250 though, which is definitely substantially lower than a year ago.
On the community side of things, though, TSC seems to be going better than it has in years! Why? I can only put it down to increased game playing! I'm not talking about Sonic, of course, I'm talking about our fads like Mafia and Settlers. This, in itself, seems to be a different means of achieving the end I detailed in my last such post: refueling our naturally competitive spirits through a different outlet. My outlet, of course, was the tournament structure which... is just lying idle, basically. I think it would be rash to draw a conclusion from this, but I would hypothesise that we're all just bored with Sonic right now. (Constant mediocre releases probably don't help in this regard.)
Nevertheless, I still have an idea to invoke a bit of competition! Here it is:
I (or someone else, but probably me) will start a topic with various games in it. Probably just the popular ones with heaps of charts to choose from. Every day (or maybe every two days, or maybe every week; this bit is very open to interpretation) I select a level on each of these games, and everyone plays it. I am particularly referring to the top-level players of each game playing it, of course, in order to bring the records down towards perfection. We've already seen from Paragod and that other guy on Final Rush how effective focusing on a single level can be. By formalising the process, we can hopefully bring the records down where they belong much quicker.
At the end of the day, the winner on that chart gets a point, and perhaps at the end of each month the leader on points gets an award for being awesome?
As usual, discuss. I'm eager to hear your thoughts.
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Everybody knows these statistics can only mean one thing.
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RPG cut down on the flooding?
Actually thb I don't see any downcurve or anything.
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Surely some of the downturn has to do with a lack of new Sonic games in the last year. The only new games out in the past 365 days are Riders: 0G (barely any activity) and Chronicles (not appropriate for charts). Also Sonic Rivals 2 just over a year ago, but also not likely to have much activity. So, going back further last year Sonic Rush Adventure is the newest game with significant activity, and it's over a year and a half since Secret Rings.
I think it's just a wax and wane cycle. Activity should certainly rise once Unleashed is out, and then there's Black Knight early next year. We'll probably be as busy as ever.
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I'm not sure... I personally think that it's a great idea!
If I have the game, I'll jump in and give it a shot...
can't hurt, can it?
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Regardless of the amount of activity, I like the idea, definitely seems fun enough. I would do it if I have the time to.
I also vote that we make said first level Final Rush M1, as we all know how active THAT has been lately... <_<
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That sounds like a great idea!
Also, am I skilled enough to take on the level challenges if they're for SADX? Jawzun's got the records pretty low, so I don't know if I can even come close to a record just yet. But I'll have a gamecube soon, which should help me out a lot (I can't speedrun that well on my PC due to a 15fps frame rate and a 500mhz processer).
I hope we can get closer to 400-500 submissions a week, at least. This will probably help.
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I think what he means is, get everyone who can compete TO compete, regardless of how good they are, just place more pressure on like the top 10 or something.
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Does no one else see the giant CON in mikes post?
Everybody knows these statistics can only mean one thing.
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RPG cut down on the flooding?
Actually thb I don't see any downcurve or anything.
fu. It was proven in a Court of Law I do no such thing!
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Oh... It would be great! General competition all over the community! Yeah, final rush is a great example.
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I think the fundamental flaw of that idea Mike, is that a lot of the reason that people have stopped competing, or competing less (and thus submitting stats) is because people are just getting sick of playing the same levels in the same games over and over again. The lack of new Sonic games is likely the #1 cause, but the fact that many games have, or approaching their apparent max, there's not much of a reason to keep pushing if you can, at best, just tie. While I think it's a novel idea...I personally think it would be better suited to games we don't track. Just a little competition amongst ourselves in games like Brawl, Guitar Hero, etc. That would gives us something new to do, and who knows, may but a spark back into our competitive nature and compel us to return to Sonic.
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Alondite there are plenty of new Sonic games. There's just a big lack of new good Sonic games.
Personally I think we need a revival (if you want to call it that) of "on-the-spot" challenges. Y'know, like the quick SA2B challenge in Grand Reopening.
But in all honesty I just haven't really felt like actively TAing recently; I've become more of a casual-type gamer recently. Not saying I won't compete again, but the drive just isn't there. I blame recent bug discoveries in the old school games; zipping through the entire level effortlessly is nothing compared to timing jumps correctly or bouncing off an enemy at the exact positioning and height. It's just not as fun. And when it's possible in almost every level... it gets boring.
This applies to 3D too, but to a lesser extent, possibly because I have less experience on the matter. However, I think it's most stunning in 2D because of how recent it's happened.
Let's hit the wayback machine. (Good thing it actually works right now! The subject of discussion here is Sonic 1. Let's look at the records at the end of 2007 (on the left), and the current records (on the right):
GH1: 0:24, 0:24
GH2: 0:17, 0:13
GH3: 0:32, 0:31
MZ1: 0:50, 0:20
MZ2: 0:43, 0:43
MZ3: 1:19, 0:37
SY1: 0:23, 0:23
SY2: 0:29, 0:29
SY3: 1:04, 1:03
LZ1: 0:45, 0:45
LZ2: 0:29, 0:27
LZ3: 1:23, 1:23
SL1: 0:24, 0:24
SL2: 0:19, 0:17
SL3: 0:53, 0:53
SB1: 0:39, 0:35
SB2: 0:33, 0:31
SB3: 0:11, 0:11
Final Zone omitted because that time's maxxed.
Not every level had huge drops, but how many of those times were thought maxed?
On that subject, how many dropped significantly? (Okay, only Marble 1 and 3.)
I think it's those damn TAS glitches, and personally I think they're ruining the competition. As more TAS tricks are found feasible in real-time, I think it's going to make competition suck more. I know freestyling is frowned upon, but I really think we need to "naturalize" the charts.
A lot of this is up for debate. For instance, a rule could be brought in saying you can't pass through walls. How does Ice Cap 1 screen-wrapping fit into this? Maybe re-word it to say solid walls? Even so, that brings up debates... Limit each character to routes they're "supposed" to take, even if (in the case of IC1) the other is faster? There's a lot to discuss, and we might want to take it to Rules Revisions from here.
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Aitamen all I'm saying is that while faster, it's more boring. And I think that's why activity's down; TAing is becoming very boring.
Also it's worth noting that other methods for getting ridiculous times, like restarting before score screen for minimum time, doublespeed duration, super forms, TBG, etc. are all possible in real-time. Yet they are banned. Are you saying these should be brought (back) into normal competition?
Call me a purist, call me whatever you want. If it takes minimum effort for maximum payoff then it's not competition, and it's not fun.
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I think a re-evaluation of the standard rules is in order? Have times with ANY sort of glitching have their own charts, and expansion of the Freestyle charts if you will, with the main charts based on playing the games at their top level, using the INTENDED mechanics of the games. Think about it, how good (or fun) is it to cut a chunk out of a level by zipping, or being able to just backtrack levels by glitching to get rings instead of trying to collect them all, or many of them in the first run through? Or in the case of TAing, finding the fastest way through that skipped part of the level. At least that way, if you can't get a good time, it's not because you are missing some obscure glitch, but it's that you just aren't fast enough, or that your route is slow.
I personally think that's much more enjoyable than hunting for glitches, then skipping the level. I play the games to play the levels, not glitch through them. Sure, some charts might be easily maxed like this, but I'm sure other charts won't be. I personally think that glitching ruins competitive gaming. Sure, some could argue that glitches expands the gameplay, but in the case of Sonic, this is not the case. L- Canceling in Melee for example, opens up a lot of combos, and doesn't necessarily present an insurmountable advantage. However it is because of glitching that most of the characters have become unusable in competitive play...and the game is just not fun to play anymore.
I know Spinny is with me on this, and I'm sure he's not the only one. TSC is in a recession (much like the US!) and we are in need of change. While this may not be the end-all answer, I do believe that it is a viable start.
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Alondite the clinching flaw that I find in your theory is the lack of clarity on what constitutes as a game-breaking glitch and what doesn't.
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Re: Sondow's post
A lot of this is up for debate. For instance, a rule could be brought in saying you can't pass through walls. How does Ice Cap 1 screen-wrapping fit into this? Maybe re-word it to say solid walls? Even so, that brings up debates... Limit each character to routes they're "supposed" to take, even if (in the case of IC1) the other is faster? There's a lot to discuss, and we might want to take it to Rules Revisions from here.
QFT.
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Alondite the clinching flaw that I find in your theory is the lack of clarity on what constitutes as a game-breaking glitch and what doesn't.
Well let me clarify: basically, anything that wasn't intended by the developers. TAing should be about pushing the games INTENDED mechanics to the limit, not breaking them.
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I know my opinion as a random TSC denizen is completely ignored, but I would like to say that banning glitchs because they are "less fun" is a very, very bad idea.
Its pretty much restating what has been said, but TSC is about getting from start to finish as fast as possible. Note that this does not include what is the "fun" strategy or the "correct" strategy. As long as the strategy doesn't create a new starting point (CC1, R101-2, or various S3 levels), it should be valid.
Saying glitchs make competition worse is not a proven fact. Some people may dislike glitchs, as shown here. But I know, personally, I enjoy glitching (and I'm fairly sure people like SadisticMystic would say the same). It's fun creating routes that the designers never dreamed of in order to slowly increase your time. It's fun to know tricks like superbouncing or spindash jumps and trying to figure out where to best use them to cut off chunks of the course. It's exciting to finally get through that wall and have a chance and setting an amazing new personal record. I'd say glitchs are one of the main reasons I do compete here: they just add so much depth to competition and allow the unimaginable to become possible.
Time attacking is not and has never been about taking the "right" path through the course. Even in the days when time attacking was just in racing games, people would cut corners or find other tricks to improve their times. What makes sonic different? For us, cutting corners may be zipping through a wall or hover out of bounds. Simply put, if we want to stay the authority on sonic competition, we have to continue to allow glitchs.
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I never thought I'd do this... but I guess I have to ^_^
*High-fives RR*
also, his change-starting-place is more specific (and much more accurate) than my timer-reset... win!
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Aitamen read the part where I said it's up for debate.
Note that this isn't the place for such discussion.
Anywho each case should be evaluated individually should we decide to go through with that plan. But as for my thoughts on a few:
Re: Slope Jumping - That's the normal physics of the game.
Re: Check Abuse - You're making extra effort to get the extra rings. Remember what I said about effort?
Re: Super Forms - Way to answer my question by asking me the same fucking thing.
Re: Hunting - You collect the most efficient piece, die, then die repeatedly until the pieces are in the most efficient places. Repeat point about effort.
Re: Characters in levels they aren't intended to be in - Requires cheat devices in most cases. No.
I think you're skewing my point far more than it should. Am I saying ban everything? No. All I'm saying is that these things are up for discussion. No change should be made without some debate from the powers that be. If we charge headlong into the situation, odds are we're going to fuck up somewhere and people are just going to be angrier.
To answer your question on defining "boring," all I have to say is this. There's a huge difference between the adrenaline rush you get running through the level on a carefully planned route and the one you get from hoping you activated the glitch that allows you to skip the whole level. One involves meeting a challenge. One ignores all obstacles. I would rather achieve glory by challenging myself than by sitting back and letting the level play itself. Sure, the level's faster, but how can you have fun if you're not actually doing anything? That's what makes it boring.
I'm not going to bounce off of every retort you make. That just makes me look dumb. However, I am going to make one more point: time attacking takes skill and effort. Once these are lost, I really don't see a point.
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After a Least squares analysis of the data mike's posted, here's some interesting derivatives:
New topics
Average Decline: 20 posts per 2 months (Note: standard deviation for this variable was high, meaning the slope from this rendered line could be useless, in other words I wouldn't worry too much about this one.)
New posts
Average Decline: (Roughly) 30 posts per 4 months (That's negligibly small.) (Note: again, deviation was high, not as bad as the first variable though)
New members
Average Decline: 2 members per 4 months (again, negligibly small considering the deviation exceeding this) (Deviation was much smaller here)
Most Online for the month
Average Decline: 8 users per 2 months (This one looks a little more serious, however the deviation is highest here)
Page views
Average decline: Negligibly small (Lowest deviation too, but still high)
To sum it up and put into plain English, the decline (slope) claimed herein is far less than the standard deviation, no matter which graph vs. time you look at.
In other words, the "decline" is within the margin of error, so you can't really say you're in a decline. So stfu.
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tyvm SDM, however, it still stands that I like Mike's idea >_>
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RR: Spind dash jumping is not a glitch, it's game mechanics.
Aitamen: It may sound like a good idea in theory, but to be successful, it will require a fair amount of participants, which I believe it doubtful, due to reasons I've already explained.
It seems to me that the people with the biggest problem with this are the people that have records by glitching. What's the matter, afraid you might lose your record if you actually have to PLAY the game? Sonic competition is basically dead for me, and I'll likely only submit in new games, if I have them, and only until they are broken, at which point I'll stop. Video games, whether it's casual or competitive play, are about having fun first and formost, and glitching just isn't enjoyable. In fact, it cuts out the part of the game that your are supposed to enjoy: the levels. Someone who knows all the glitches can easily beat out someone who is far more skilled at the game, and because of this, the rankings don't necessarily reflect skill, but knowledge of glitches.
*edit* run-on sentances FTW
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I think the first level should be FE(x), and as such, I'll be submitting as well... the challenge is on!
*off topic*
umm... KNOWLEDGE of the game is what's required...
As stated above, we aren't measuring skill, we're measuring how low the timer is when it stops...
If you want "Natural" record, there's a site for that... in fact, there's a massive community for it... TSC is here for ANNIHILATING the games, not for showing skill...
Further, I've proven both my skill and talent in sonic games (thought mostly only 2D, to be fair)... I have no issue with that part... however, when TAS runs compare to sonic games, THEY COMPARE TO TSC... and I like that... I prefer that TSC be the authority on how fast levels CAN be completed...
As the only person here to pull EHZ :18, I personally feel that your claims of unskillful-ness are unfounded...
If there's something that you're not wililng to do because it "ruins" the game for you, then fine, don't do it... If you're not willing to do anything you can, you don't deserve the record...
And the "enjoyment" I get in gaming is making that timer stop as soon as I can, without a cheating device or timer-reset/position move...
And if a glitch is a "programming oversight that allows lower times due to faulty interactions that were not intended or not tested", then yes, SDJ/slope jumps, as they allow "unintentional shortcuts" (to quote Yuji himself), are glitches as much as SPO'ing a left edge and wrapping is a glitch...
Regardless, I think all these should be moved to a different topic... hijacking is a cruelity...
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Oh boy fun times :D
I think the first level should be FE(x), and as such, I'll be submitting as well... the challenge is on!
*off topic*
umm... KNOWLEDGE of the game is what's required...
As stated above, we aren't measuring skill, we're measuring how low the timer is when it stops...
...what? That is just absurd. I don't even know where to do with this... What does a time matter if there's not skill involved in doing it? The less skill it takes, the more people will be able to do it.
If you want "Natural" record, there's a site for that... in fact, there's a massive community for it... TSC is here for ANNIHILATING the games, not for showing skill...
I don't think you really have the right to say what TSC is for. Breaking games is hardly what I would call glorious, however, a mastery of their mechanics is.
Further, I've proven both my skill and talent in sonic games (thought mostly only 2D, to be fair)... I have no issue with that part... however, when TAS runs compare to sonic games, THEY COMPARE TO TSC... and I like that... I prefer that TSC be the authority on how fast levels CAN be completed...
As the only person here to pull EHZ :18, I personally feel that your claims of unskillful-ness are unfounded...
Lol. Let's see it in video.
If there's something that you're not wililng to do because it "ruins" the game for you, then fine, don't do it... If you're not willing to do anything you can, you don't deserve the record...
Hm...so an athlete not willing to use performance enhancing drugs doesn't deserve a record? By your logic, all professional athletes should partake in gene doping and use performance enhancing drugs to reach the limit of human capability.
And the "enjoyment" I get in gaming is making that timer stop as soon as I can, without a cheating device or timer-reset/position move...
Well then that is a failure on your part. You are basically spitting in the face of developers, saying "fuck your game I just want to do it fast. Fuck all of your hard work and time put into it. Yeah, real classy.
And if a glitch is a "programming oversight that allows lower times due to faulty interactions that were not intended or not tested", then yes, SDJ/slope jumps, as they allow "unintentional shortcuts" (to quote Yuji himself), are glitches as much as SPO'ing a left edge and wrapping is a glitch...
Physics =/= glitches. Slope jumps is not doing anything ourside of the boundries of the game mechanics. Wrapping is abusing programming, there's a difference.
Regardless, I think all these should be moved to a different topic... hijacking is a cruelity...
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Concerning steroids, yes, that's always been my view... the human body is capable of many times what people have made it do thus far... being it bio-engineering (which is the power of the brain over whatever form/body it's put in) or steroids (willing annihilation based on a peak), if you were willing to go through such, you deserve the record, and if you aren't, you don't...
How would you vote that abuse of physics and 90% of glitches aren't the same?
"if you hit a wall and are holding right, the wall pushes you left" - mechanic
"if you can break the barrier of the wall by (insert means here) and hold left, the wall forces you out to the right, towards the goal" - abuse of mechanic... "glitch"
"When you glide, your vertical acceleration is set negative to approach a certain negative value, however, this acceleration is not parabolic as it is with jumping" and "if you were rising due to a jump (initial) you vertical velocity is terminated upon gliding" and "After destroying an enemy/box, the "rising due to jump" switch is still off" - Mechanic(s)
"Gliding after hitting an enemy does not terminate your vertical velocity, and as such, allows for access to different routes" - abuse of mechanic
I'll assume you're saying whether or not it "breaks" a level is going to be whether it's a glitch or not... Which would be a fair analysis, if it wasn't subjective.
If I was a fan of natural running, I'd say that anything that "breaks sequence" is against the rules... Any form of unintentional-cut would be illegal... you'd have to go under the bridge through the springs in EC, you'd have to actually bother to snowboard and re-start the timer in IC(3D), you'd have to go through the "proper" bosses with each character...
but I'm not... I'm a fan of finding whatever methods there are to make that timer stop as early as possible...
I will say that I personally dislike many of the glitches I am forced to use to compete (with the exception of the SB3 glitch, which I love because I HATE THAT LEVEL), however I have no problems with using them to keep up with the best...
And I should've stated my "present" entertainment in gaming is to speedrun and annihilate said games... I game a game for "entertainment" long before I ever begin to speedrun... The only positive proof I have of this would be my present SA times, which are my casual "look around and enjoy the game" runs that happen before I study and annihilate the game ^_^
And my first statement that you offered a retort to was mistaken... if a run is skillful, right on... you rightly deserve the record... and a great many glitches take patience/skill to execute... (Marble 1-3, for example, is probably harder than getting within 5-8 seconds of the old record...) However, it's not a competition of skill or finesse, but rather of getting that timer to obey you as best as you can manage... Otherwise the leader board would look VERY different... Sprint/Eredani would be, far and away, the best players on the site... no question in my mind to either of them... Mike would be far lower (his own admission... I still say he's more skilled than he thinks he is), and RPG probably wouldn't be up there (no offense, RPG, but the only thing you and I really have going for us is our endurance... we'll keep playing until we get it right...)
Effort is measured by the community, not by the charts... the charts, however, are what everyone who isn't a TSCer looks at...
TG is like the olympics: natural competition as a measure of skill...
But there are many people who can outrun those people who have gold-medals wrapped around their necks, and a great many people who can outrun those bastards (Votava aside) at TG...
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Just for reference, I don't think that explanation of supergliding is right. It's because the act of entering glide triggers an immediate 2-pixel drop, resulting in quite a large negative acceleration for the frame in question. Normally after that frame is over, you go back to standard glide drop rates and the 2 pixels aren't taken into account thereafter, but if the drop puts you into an enemy hitbox, it does see those 2 pixels as part of your downward velocity, and therefore as part of the upward velocity you get after the bounce (in effect, getting a long-term effect out of something that usually only lasts for a single frame).
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Hmm... I did not know that... thank you very much for the clarification!
Also, that gives me an idea... tyvm!
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Concerning steroids, yes, that's always been my view... the human body is capable of many times what people have made it do thus far... being it bio-engineering (which is the power of the brain over whatever form/body it's put in) or steroids (willing annihilation based on a peak), if you were willing to go through such, you deserve the record, and if you aren't, you don't...
Willing to give yourself an advantage that forgoes effort does not make you deserve the record. Through glitching, you can beat a time that was attained by not glitching (and by glitching, I mean breaking the level. Moving through solid objects...walls...floors...etc.) with much less effort. Just like professional sports, if steroids were legal, then anyone could be a professional athlete, and when everyone attains that level, it doesn't become impressive anymore.
How would you vote that abuse of physics and 90% of glitches aren't the same?
"if you hit a wall and are holding right, the wall pushes you left" - mechanic
"if you can break the barrier of the wall by (insert means here) and hold left, the wall forces you out to the right, towards the goal" - abuse of mechanic... "glitch"
"When you glide, your vertical acceleration is set negative to approach a certain negative value, however, this acceleration is not parabolic as it is with jumping" and "if you were rising due to a jump (initial) you vertical velocity is terminated upon gliding" and "After destroying an enemy/box, the "rising due to jump" switch is still off" - Mechanic(s)
"Gliding after hitting an enemy does not terminate your vertical velocity, and as such, allows for access to different routes" - abuse of mechanic
Abuse of mechanic, but certainly not a glitch. No reason to not be legal
I'll assume you're saying whether or not it "breaks" a level is going to be whether it's a glitch or not... Which would be a fair analysis, if it wasn't subjective.
If I was a fan of natural running, I'd say that anything that "breaks sequence" is against the rules... Any form of unintentional-cut would be illegal... you'd have to go under the bridge through the springs in EC, you'd have to actually bother to snowboard and re-start the timer in IC(3D), you'd have to go through the "proper" bosses with each character...
but I'm not... I'm a fan of finding whatever methods there are to make that timer stop as early as possible...
...then why bother playing the game if you are going to cut it out? Who cares if you can get the timer to stop low if you only actually play 20% of the level? You aren't destroying the game like that. If you can blow through everything that the developers put in your way to slow you down along their intended route(s) and beat the level quickly, THAT is destroying the game. Haxing through a wall to cut out 80% of the level just says "oh so I found this little bit of programming to abuse, but anyone could do it if they knew the glitch". Note that is a bit of an extreme example, but you get the idea.
I will say that I personally dislike many of the glitches I am forced to use to compete (with the exception of the SB3 glitch, which I love because I HATE THAT LEVEL), however I have no problems with using them to keep up with the best...
funny...because allowing glitches really makes it hard to see who is "the best" considering that it generally involves less skill than running through the level at record pace.
And I should've stated my "present" entertainment in gaming is to speedrun and annihilate said games... I game a game for "entertainment" long before I ever begin to speedrun... The only positive proof I have of this would be my present SA times, which are my casual "look around and enjoy the game" runs that happen before I study and annihilate the game ^_^
And my first statement that you offered a retort to was mistaken... if a run is skillful, right on... you rightly deserve the record... and a great many glitches take patience/skill to execute... (Marble 1-3, for example, is probably harder than getting within 5-8 seconds of the old record...) However, it's not a competition of skill or finesse, but rather of getting that timer to obey you as best as you can manage... Otherwise the leader board would look VERY different... Sprint/Eredani would be, far and away, the best players on the site... no question in my mind to either of them... Mike would be far lower (his own admission... I still say he's more skilled than he thinks he is), and RPG probably wouldn't be up there (no offense, RPG, but the only thing you and I really have going for us is our endurance... we'll keep playing until we get it right...)
Effort is measured by the community, not by the charts... the charts, however, are what everyone who isn't a TSCer looks at...
And I'm not saying to get rid of those, but move them into a more "freestyle" type of competition, with few (if any) limitations, and open up new charts for pure runs (that's the term I'm going to use since I can think of nothing better), give us some new barriers to compete within and possibly give Sonic competition a fresh (or less stale) face.
TG is like the olympics: natural competition as a measure of skill...
But there are many people who can outrun those people who have gold-medals wrapped around their necks, and a great many people who can outrun those bastards (Votava aside) at TG...
TG? Only TG I know of is (Gamma) Theta Gamma >_>
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TG is Twin Galaxies, the competition group that requires you to play by every rule, and in a lot of cases they even need an official judge to physically see your run -as you play it- or it's invalid.
Or so I've heard, anyway.
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TG is Twin Galaxies, the competition group that requires you to play by every rule, and in a lot of cases they even need an official judge to physically see your run -as you play it- or it's invalid.
Or so I've heard, anyway.
I just watched the king of kong.
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Twin Galaxies was a good, reliable organization for video games back when it was still in the arcades: there, their methods made sense, as they could affirm the reliability of whatever arcade they came across as it was.
As gaming branched out into consoles and the industry became even more decentralized, it's really almost criminal to see Twin Galaxies not taking advantage of new media: the old system doesn't work over a worldwide level, and the Internet is staring them in the face with a solution.
But anyway, that's not exactly what I'm talking about. I'm more directed at what Alondite said,
funny...because allowing glitches really makes it hard to see who is "the best" considering that it generally involves less skill than running through the level at record pace.
It's not so much that it takes less skill so much as it takes less effort to get a good time. Assuming everyone used this glitch (and it didn't totally wreck competition to bits) the rankings would be more or less the same as they are now, although with smaller variation between the times: the issue is that relatively few members of TSC are still competing, and the few who do are thus able to scour up new glitches and get better times than those who hadn't bothered to compete.
Glitches put competition on a different level, particularly some of the bigger skips (look at how easy it is to stratify SO1T into "glitch" and "non-glitch") and often encourage people to play through levels again, even if a large portion is cut out. There's no denying that it does pep up TSC.
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Better points that ours, as it doesn't rely on morality...
The Sand1T horizontal wrap caused a great number of people to refine said level, and much like Rolk's HT-lava-plat or the carretero's (sorry if I spelled it wrong) SB3-ramp, it caused a surge of activity on that level...
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There are tons of problems with banning "unnatural techniques". A couple big ones:
a.) it is almost impossible to distinguish between intended and unintended game mechanics. Was a spindash jump in 3d sonic intended? I'm not sure they designed the spindash for extended jump length.
b.) some things that are acceptable clearly weren't intended by game developers
loop jumping was not intended; if it was, you wouldn't die from a loopjump in GREEN HILL ZONE 1. That's pretty obvious the side effect of an unintended result of the game's physics engine.
Hell, shortcuts weren't intended by the game developers. Skipping things means bypassing something you were supposed to do in the first place. That is the epitome of defying intent.
c.) unnatural techniques add depth to gameplay. Rather than boring people, they show people that there is a wide array of techniques to be utilized in the competitive world, ranging from wall zips to massive shortcuts. and that's pretty awesome.
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I thought you were my opposition, Stef? Not complaining, I had just thought you on the other side of the coin.
Good note about the loop jump (which is what I extended into slope-jumping... it's not built to do what it does... you aren't supposed to get on the 2nd tier after the loop via loopjump -> slope jump, you're supposed to go over the platforms prior to said loop)
Regardless of all this, I am still amazed and enthralled by people who do annihilate levels as you speak of... just because I consider most of EC to be "cheating" the game does NOT mean that I doubt any ability of Jawzun in said game... I whole-heartedly hope, because of my FZFA bit, that he finally breaks that 1-min barrier!
Comments on TG: about 95% of their runs are "full legit"... for example, I was disallowed from using the under-the-oil bit in S2, and as such, refused to run for them...
however, I do not see that as cheating in the least...
and their staff should not be allowed to compete, with a few exceptions...
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I don't see loop-jumping or spindash-jumping as glitching. They are merely using intended gameplay mechanics in unintended ways. I call zipping through a wall a glitch. The developers put in loops, and the ability to jump, so combining the two is no glitch. They did not however, purposely put int he ability to break the game code and zip through a wall/floor. That is what distinguishes glitch from not.
As long as glitching is still allowed, I will probably never compete at TSC again. Spaceflying ruined GX competition for me, and now it's happening again. It also ruined Melee for me. It's getting to the point where Fox/Falco/Sheik/Marth on FD is the entirety of the competitive scene, and it just sucks every ounce of variety out of the game, so it gets stale.
Excitebike 64 IMO is a fantastic game to compete in (if only it were more popular...) because there, even now, are virtually no known glitches. It's 100% about mastery of game mechanics and course lines, and it's much more enjoyable to compete it because you don't have to worry about breaking the game to be competitive. IMO breaking the game ruins it's playability to the point where it's not even enjoyable anymore.
For example, Metroid Prime has become far more enjoyable to play again since I stopped SBing it. The game design in that game is nothing short of spectacular, and you can't fully enjoy it by glitching, which is practically a sin given how great that game is. Breaking the game to get a fast time and skipping large sections of the game just. as I said before, spits in the face of the developer, Retro Studios in this case, and their phenomenal work.
SBing ruined Metroid Prime 2, because Retro attempted to prevent SBing through certain design choices, and those design choices ended up tarnishing the overall design of the game. It just wasn't as good as the first game.
Anyway that's just what I think, but whatever, it's not like it even matters in the grand scheme of TSC.
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Alondite, while the game developers did not put in, intentionally, the ability to zip through a wall, they did put in both walls and moving platforms. Almost every wall zip is a combination of the two, at least in sonic 1. Who's to say it's not an unintended consequence of two intended mechanics? While I think wall zipping is glitching, your logic can turn almost any glitch into an "ok" mechanic.
The concept of playing naturally is to play the game exactly as it was intended. To me, that means nothing that was unintended, including shortcuts or consequences of the physics engine. And we both agree that is a ridiculous type of competition.
I agree, games are often a lot more fun when you play them throughout. However, most metroid prime players didn't play the game to sequence break the first time through. Only when one wants to achieve a high level of skill does a player sequence break. The game is only broken at high levels of play where it's desirable to do so. Competition is about being the best, and that means exploiting anything unintended that still depends on the skill of the player.
This would be a great opportunity to point out that you are -still able- to submit your times that do not use glitches. And you can have personal pride in the fact that you don'[t use those glitches. That is allowed here. We don't require that you exploit every inch of a game to compete. And if that's the way you want to compete, naturally, then go for it. Nobody will stop you!
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EB64 can be broken via a controller with an extended range joystick... which, interestingly enough, is competition legal
I personally consider that cheating as it cannot be done on an official console with official controllers, but whatever...
I do consider it a noble goal to play without glitches, and if you're interested, I'd fully like to compete with you one your grounds (to help you push yourself harder and to prove myself to you)
Also, it wasn't intended to be able to gain speed by hitting a slope... the ORIGINAL INTENT of that was so that you can't backtrack up slopes, or so that when you jump on them (from that lower position) you get thrown backwards...
The interactions with the wall are, as I said, intended physics, but when you can get inside the wall, they work for you instead of against you.
Also, in S2B, they did look at fixing all possibility of zipping by making you bounce off a wall when you hit it... however, they saw that this detracted from the game too much.
Regardless, you're saying that how the glitch comes about has nothing to do with whether you deem it a glitch or not... you base it off the effects, which would also be fair if it wasn't subjective...
As stef said, if I use your logic, all glitches are based off intended physics being abused in unintentional ways...
I remember when I first came to TSC I saw the S2 run of OO1 and I thought "That's cheating!!"... I realized later that it's just because the game was programmed poorly that these things were possible...
If you think of it as spitting in the face of the developer, so is speedrunning in all it's forms... walk through S2 and tell me it's not beautiful... or go listen to the music in levels all over the place... some is serene, some is upbeat... to only listen to the first X seconds of those tracks is kinda sinful...
But we're not an artistic appreciation group nor a musical appreciation group... we're speedrunners...
pro competition (for cash) usually doesn't bar any tactics... I would write more, but my gf is wanting to watch some stupid fucking WoW video...
off for now... ^_^
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It's during posts like these where I notice how much Aita uses ellipses >_>
I don't really have two cents to add to this, save for I support mike's original idea.
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Whether or not abusing glitches is fun is a matter of opinion. Personally, I have fun doing that sort of thing, and I like competing with them. Glitches open up a whole new world of what's possible within a game, what can be done with it, and I like seeing what I can do. The whole point about whether you're playing through and enjoying a level is stupid. There's no reason to expect to be able to get the full experience of the game when you're trying to focus on finding the fastest routes and getting the best times. Metroid Prime has and is one of my favorite games of all time, and not only would I say sequence breaking doesn't detract from that, it's most of the reason why I like it so much. The breaks make it so much less linear to the point where you can do whatever you want at almost any point in the game, going as fast or as slow as you want.
Like Stef said, if you really hate abusing glitches so much, you don't have to. You're allowed to submit the times you get without glitching, just like I'm allowed to TA the levels the way I like to: figuring out where and how to save time and optimizing it into a solid run.
If you really want to make competition into exactly the way you're intended to play the levels, then I wouldn't compete anymore. Competition is about pushing the game to its limits, not about enjoying the game. In competition, with higher knowledge of whatever you're competing in comes advantages, and there's no reason it shouldn't be the same for Sonic. Don't think it's fun? Tough. Whenever you start doing ANYTHING on a high level, it stops being fun, because you aren't playing for fun anymore. You're playing to push yourself to do as well as you can, and that's not always fun.
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Whether or not abusing glitches is fun is a matter of opinion. Personally, I have fun doing that sort of thing, and I like competing with them.
Isn't competing in SA all about abusing glitches? I love that game, but that's pretty much all there is to it...
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SM will be put out of a job if SA2 can no longer be glitched!
/me runs
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First off, I don't use ellipses, I use ellipsis... the former is not a grammar tool, it's an oval
I'd like to note that I use ellipsis whenever I finish writing a thought and I pause to think of whatever I'm saying next, as it's more of an idle animation now than it is a part of my grammar...
Whenever you start doing ANYTHING on a high level, it stops being fun, because you aren't playing for fun anymore. You're playing to push yourself to do as well as you can, and that's not always fun.
This statement is something I've said over and over again, but could never find the words for...
The payoff, however, is a fantastic feeling ^_^