The Sonic Center
The Lounge => Wikkity! => Topic started by: CosmicFalcon on August 16, 2008, 01:32:22 pm
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Ok guys here it is. The planning thread. This whole thing happening is still a ways off (talking next summer or later) so planning shouldn't really officially begin (i.e. I wouldn't tell GameMarathons about it until ages from now). So try and keep this on the Q-T (ideally this thread would be in EG but not all those interested can get in there).
wtf is this shit
So 'Game Marathons' are becoming pretty big things. (See: www.gamemarathons.com and www.thespeedgamers.com). Recently there was a Sonic Marathon (which is what enlightened a lot of us to the phenomenon) but it wasn't all that great. TSC could do it much better.
I gave the suggestion that TSC should do one! Now, getting a decent number of us in one place is tricky, but as TSG (The Speed Gamers) have shown with their Metroid Marathon, cohosting across the pond is not an issue. Ideally we want to get 2 or 3 people in each location, and have 3 or 4 locations. That would be a good size, I think.
The idea would be to take 48 or 72 hours (or some other arbitrary length of time) and run through as many Sonic games as possible. We divvy up the games to different players, come up with some rota for sleeping (so we don't die). The whole thing gets broadcast on Ustream.tv or similar, and we try and raise a bunch of money for a charity - the basic concept behind all marathons.
The Game List
EDIT: Games are to be played in release order. If you disagree, go ahead and say so.
Those listed in square brackets are not, as of yet, in the final game roster. I'm only listing the very main series as in the final roster at this early stage.
Those marked with an asterisk (*) could be played as bonus games, placed after the end of the marathon.
Those marked with a circumflex (^) have no current method of being played on a home console.
I have begun to attribute game completion estimations. I do not necessarily know how right I am lol. Please input.
Sonic 1 MD - 1:00
[Sonic 1 GG]
[Sonic 2 GG]
Sonic 2 MD - 1:30
Sonic CD - ?
[Sonic Chaos]
[Sonic Spinball]
Sonic 3 & Knuckles - 3:00
[Sonic Drift]
[Sonic Triple Trouble]
[Sonic Drift 2]
[Knuckles' Chaotix]
[Tails' Sky Patrol]
[Tails Adventure]
[Sonic Labyrinth]
[Sonic the Fighters]
[Sonic 3D Blast]
[Sonic Blast] <-- Wait what is this?
[Sonic Jam]
[Sonic R]
Sonic Adventure (DX) - 5:00
[Sonic Pocket Adventure]
[Sonic Shuffle]*
Sonic Adventure 2 (Battle) - 4:00
[Sonic Advance]
[Sonic Advance 2]
[Sonic Battle]
Sonic Heroes - 3:00
[Sonic Advance 3]
[Sonic Rush]^
Shadow the Hedgehog - 3:00 - stories???
[Sonic Riders]
[Sonic Rivals]^
Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) - 5:00
[Sonic and the Secret Rings]
[Sonic Rush Adventure]^
[Sonic Rivals 2]^
[Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity]
Sonic Unleashed - ?
Current Roster: 10 games - 26:00+
The Players
Post if you want to get involved. I'll hold off on even creating this list 'til I have names from here. Involvement can range from playing, to commentating, chat moderation, web design, etc etc. Let us know.
This section will also include information on what hardware and software people have available, to see how we'll set it up.
The Publicity
I know they can't play, but we really should get TSS in on this. Summer of Sonic, from what little I've seen of it (read: I read about it on UKR) seems to have been successful. They have good PR links with Sega Europe, and it would be awesome to be able to get the kind of involvement in this that TSG had for their Metroid marathon.
Like I said, I'm not about to go over to GameMarathons.com and announce our intentions to do this. We will have to a fair bit in advance, if nothing else but to make sure no one else does another Sonic marathon before we do. I may try and get in contact with someone from TSG in case they have one in the pipeline, etc. Everything on the down-low.
The Cause
Really we're just doing this because we love to play, we see what fun people have doing and watching marathons, and want to have a go. But we've also seen how much people are willing to donate, and we could really collect a lot for a good cause if we can make this successful. The default option is Child's Play - it's a charity, it's gaming related. Let's see what ideas everyone has. If only there was a fund for making Sonic good again...
Okay, that's all the info I need to give I think. This post will get heavily edited as time goes by. Gogogo.
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I'd like to help but there really isn't much I can do. Also, if you want TSC to be the first to have marathoning, then in my opinion you shouldn't try to confide in other sonic websites, they might decide to steal your idea and beat you to it.
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Could you explain what this whole thing is first please? :(
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Shadowfan: Drumming up publicity like that wouldn't happen 'til much later, when we have a lot of stuff already set up. We'd be in with GameMarathons.com and such like (I am sort of in the process of making a name for myself there), and by that point the fact we were going to do a Sonic Marathon would be well established. Anyone else trying to copy us would stick out like a sore thumb, causing problems for them rather than us. Hopefully.
PPA: Sorry. This came from a discussion in the chat, based on all these marathons we've been watching lately. I updated the post with background info.
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I suppose I could do something or another. I've got every Sonic game on Nintendo systems and a capture card. I've also got the site http://www.blueblur.org/ (http://www.blueblur.org/) which may have some use for getting the idea out in a years time or whatnot.
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Were we actually able (which I feel may be doubtful) I'd totally do Mean Bean Machine. Because I can. I mean I could play everything I own (everything for Genesis, GBA sans Battle, DS sans M&S, PS2 sans Riders ZG, and GC).
But yeah. This requires TSC members to plan things. Things that aren't necessarily run-based often take a back seat.
But as for future publicity... SDA might stick out as well, particularly if we play for speed. Live single-segment speedruns might catch their attention. Though they'd cause a lot of frustration, especially for the perfectionists around here.
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well then they just have to understand this is for entertainment as well and to make this last for whatever amount of time for the marathon. I mean most of these games only (the 2d titles) can be wiped out in around 30-60 minutes in a speed run, then that leaves the 3d games and other stuff and that's all in a day or less :/
stuff needs to be planned, what's being done in these games, other crap I don't really know too much about since I haven't watched many marathons >_>
something I would like to participate in if by the time it comes to it I have the free time.
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I can't play too long as my nerves need a break once in a while.
I'd be willing to consecutively play through Sonic 1, Sonic CD and Sonic Chaos though. And Sonic R, if you define "playthrough" for the latter.
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I'd probably tackle Shadow and maybe Sonic R (but I am NOT using any glitches). What I was thinking for Shadow is 5 paths that goes through each level at least once, then a playthrough of the 4 skipped bosses in Level Select, followed by the Last Story and maybe Expert Mode. Since my playthrough ideas would have to go through Space Gadget (and I refuse to wait 5 minutes on that and do the Hero mission on Lost Impact), the bottom paths will not mirror the top paths (due to an excessive wait on one mission and something super ridiculous on another mission).
In addition, after next June, I'll be done with school for good, so I'll be more willing to travel wherever is necessary as long as it's somewhere in the states (the closer to where I live, the better).
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I'd love to do SA2:B, and could probably do SADX too, whatever the goals are for playing. I can easily get mediums to record by the deadline.
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I went through GHZ and made a list of all the games that are potentially usable, in release order. Basically, the only games I didn't include were games like Mean Bean Machine and Sonic Pinball Party. The only game I didn't add which I might consider would be SegaSonic the Hedgehog, but I didn't include it because it's A. arcade only and B. has no legitimate way of being played [ie, emulator only]. All the other "emulator-only" games we discussed could at least have a legitimate copy owned.
I know some of the games are not the most desirable to play [G Sonic] or may not even be feasible for a run [Sonic Shuffle?] so the list is entirely open for discussion.
Sonic 1 MD
Sonic 1 GG
Sonic 2 GG
Sonic 2 MD
Sonic CD
Sonic Chaos
Sonic Spinball
Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic Drift
Sonic Triple Trouble
Sonic Drift 2
Knuckles' Chaotix
Tails' Sky Patrol
Tails Adventure
Sonic Labyrinth
Sonic the Fighters
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic Blast
Sonic Jam [World]
Sonic R
Sonic Adventure DX
Sonic Pocket Adventure
Sonic Shuffle
Sonic Adventure 2: Battle
Sonic Advance
Sonic Advance 2
Sonic Battle
Sonic Heroes
Sonic Advance 3
Sonic Rush
Shadow the Hedgehog
Sonic Riders
Sonic Rivals
Sonic '06
Sonic and the Secret Rings
Sonic Rush Adventure
Sonic Rivals 2
Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity
Sonic Unleashed [will be out by next summer, afaik]
Some other notes would be that we'd probably need a way to record PSP for the Rivals games, but there are some neat tools for that, I believe.
Spinballwizard, you'd want to do Mean Bean? If so, we could probably add it. I only excluded it because I figured no one would want to, and it's semi-far removed...
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I would love to do one for sonic advance 2 :(. Dont know what I would have to do + dont have proper materials to record stuff + no GBAdv SP :(
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For GBA games, that player would need access to a Gamecube and GBA player. [As well as a capture card and a PC that can handle it.]
I had another idea, that since it will be in the middle of summer, maybe a few of the players could meet up at someone's place IRL. I don't mind travelling at all, any distance, and I've wanted to take a road trip for a long time. We could still kind of have like 2 or 3 groups set up, since we're going to have a UK group and an American group, at least.
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Wait, what about that Mario marathon where they were shit-tastic but racked up way too much money? Is it a good idea to breeze through the levels in minutes?
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I am willing to chip in, obviously on the 2D games unless you want the thing to run like forever >_>
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When you have enough games to last a normal person a week, it's a good idea to go fast.
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Ah, okay. >_>
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Also it's a way for us to get more attention. Just going through a bunch of Sonic games isn't that hard. Having the best Sonic speed runners flying through the games would be much more interesting.
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Well, we don't want *the best* because we want the runs to not be glitch-focussed. We're also thinking about getting good endings for most/all the games, depending on how feasible it is. So the focus would be on skillful play, not outright speed.
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I have a Gameboy Player for the Gamecube. I also bought the Gamecube-Gameboy connection thingy that lets you use the Gamboy Advance/SP as a controller. I also have 4 Sonic game gear games (Chaos, Drift 2, Sonic 2, and Mean Bean Machine, which has an Extra Mode not present in the Genesis version). But my game gear is dead now, so unless somebody else brings thiers,
i.e., buys me one I guess we wouldn't bring this for discussion at this point. The GG games are available in Sonic Adventure DX/Gems Collection, so camera issues will not be present; so it's up for discussion which way we want to record them.
If I will be able to make this (depending on where this will be located) I'll gladly play Sonic Battle for sure (deletion of story mode may be problematic for Emerl cards), maybe a few levels of the Advance games, and Mean Bean Machine GG.
The T- I"m pretty sure that P.P.A. would do Pinball Party, so don't count it out just yet.
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Yeah RC, PPA has been mentioning Pinball Party quite a bit lately >_>
PINBALL PARTY CHARTS
PINBALL PARTY CHARTS
PINBALL PARTY CHARTS
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Ok, good to see some healthy interest.
On IRL locations: I would like, if possible, to have groups rather than individuals at each location. Not to be discriminative, it's just that a group makes for a more interesting watch. Where there are small numbers of people or individuals, it would be a good idea to 'co-host'. Have a voice over feed from a player elsewhere. The number of games played in each place should probably fit a proportion to the number of players there - think of it as a certain number of games per player.
To that end, Douglas, would you be opposed to meeting up with RPG and I for the UK team?
On speed vs ... er... unspeed: I think the best way to put it is that we should demonstrate skilled gameplay. That means, no offence to those Canadian kids, not getting to the Carnival Night drum and going "wtffffff". This doesn't necessarily mean HIGH SPEEDS. Depending on our finalised game list, we will want to try and fit a set time frame (e.g. 72 hours), or maybe aim to finish ahead of schedule and do like TSG - go back for extra completion. The problem with many games is this involves replaying levels etc... we'll see.
On handheld titles: Gameboy Player is a must: webcam feeds are not great. Seeing as we have such a wide range of games to choose from, I think we should consider the idea of omitting handheld titles that have no way to be played in such a way that there can be a capture card feed. On the other hand, I really want there to be a way to get an AV signal out of a DS... I may do some research into it (I have said, if I get a DS lite (which I might) I will happily disect my DS.
On people claiming games: At this early stage I want this thread to work more as an idea pool. It is good to know what games certain people are willing to do, but we are a long way from allocating games. We need, rather, to get our thoughts straight on what exactly it is we are doing. This is not going to happen overnight.
To that end, I would like to get this thread started on some specific points. Such as:
Level of completion
This is mostly applicable to Genesis and Advance titles. Primarily, are we going to be going for Emeralds? In Sonic 2 and S3K, this adds the complication of making Super Sonic available. S3K doesn't make this a problem, S2 does as transformation is unavoidable. It has been suggested we should only go for 'good endings' where it adds more gameplay (Doomsday, Moon, etc). It would be nice to get Emeralds, though.
There is also how much we are going to play certain multi-character games. In Advances, the characters all do much the same thing: we could just play Sonic. In Shadow, we have to pick some routes I think. There's been a couple of suggestions about this, including mine.
What's in a name?
I think we need something better than 'Sonic Marathon' to name this project. Something snazzy like "Project Speedway" or something I dunno. Once we get a name it won't be long before I register a domain: it is cheap to get one for a year, it will mean we can put up some ambiguous placeholder and it will solidify our intentions. I shall get on to Rolken/Gerbil/whoever about using TSC as a webhost too.
What are we playing?
We need to start trimming this list of games down. If anyone has any opinions on what is obligatory, go ahead and let it be known and I'll update the lists. Then we need to start deciding what we want to include from the not-so-obligatory lists, if someone really wants a game in post and explain why. What we include very much depends on...
How long are we playing for?
I can see this being 72 hours minimum. 96 could be possible, but we have to consider people's commitments.
Finally (for now):
What are we playing for?
Charities, people. Hopefully we can make this big, and if we can we can raise some decent cash. I want to see it go to a decent cause.
Go forth and discuss.
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If there are games like Battle or Advance where people absolutely refuse to delete their save files, we could always try to find cheap copies of them at Gamestop, and then raffle off those carts as prizes to people donating.
For Game Gear games, yes, SADX/Gems collection is almost definetly the required method. I can't imagine recording off screen for those.
PSP recording should use something like this (http://www.pspontv.com/) or this (http://gear.ign.com/articles/666/666034p1.html) or this (http://gear.ign.com/articles/677/677544p1.html). Do we have anyone who wants to do the PSP games?
For Pinball Party, does the game actually have a story mode and ending? If so, how long does it take to complete? I assumed it was like a typical pinball game, and didn't really end...
Also, I love what they're doing on the Metroid run right now: Now that everything's completed, they're replaying Prime, while another player plays Prime Pinball in the top corner. Once we complete it, we could have 2 completions [like, Advance games and emblem collection for Adventure(s)] going on at the same time.
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There is a story mode in Pinball Party. The last (or second to last?) level is a bugger. You need to play through all the stages without losing to pass it. The story is a tournament in the game. Sonic plays against so and so to get a score before time is up or something like that.
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Would PPA be able to do that relatively quickly, and fail-free? It just seems like, Pinball Party would be the kind of game that... wouldn't be fun to watch over and over... no offense meant. I'm all for it if it can be done well.
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I think that, in a game like s1, it would add a whole lot to have the player go for all emeralds. Even though it changes nothing but the ending, it displays the high quality level of play we're looking for.
Assuming I do play, I think it would be nigh-impossible for me to meet up with an irl team. I would only be 17 years old, likely with a few other commitments to hold to. Not only that, I live pretty far from the rest of American TSC; I think only Rolken is within less than 10 hours driving distance from me (I'm in New Mexico, lawl).
Anyway, I'd love to participate.
I think it would be a great idea to try and advertise this well in advance, and get it significantly hyped up on the internet. With like a year remaining until we actually do this, it shouldn't be too hard to get a decent sized crowd ready for it. Anyway, advertising will be -key- to a successful marathon. We'd have to find out what would bring viewers, popularity, and, ultimately, money for charity.
To The T: Speedy play will be nearly a necessity with the library of games you'd want accomplished. Also, speedy play does not necessarily have to be synonymous with 'glitch abuse'. Though, I don't think glitches should be taboo, they can be entertaining to watch as well.
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I perhaps would do Pinball Party if you, well, actually could "complete" it. Would that mean just playing all the stages of the two tables once, or playing edlessly racking up points until you go game over?
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PPA the latter would take way too fucking long
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I am pro a Team UK meetup, and am willing to waive the restraining order for the duration :)
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...Restraining order? Do I even want to know?
If it involves RPG I probably don't
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There's also the possibility of a Michigan group with me, SJ, and possibly SBW... pending having proper capture equipment.
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What about the ten thousand people in New York and the surrounding area? >_>
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PPA the latter would take way too fucking long
My point exactly.
Also since I seem to be the only German here and I'm only feeling safe at home anyway I think it'd be reasonable if I played alone and not in a group.
Oh, with this being a live stream I assume, do I need a webcam or something?
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There's also the possibility of a Michigan group with me, SJ, and possibly SBW... pending having proper capture equipment.
I is at chicago Ill. though im only 15 :(. I wish Taco would join. If I were to somehow join this, I would just want to do a speedrun of SAdv2.
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Also, to encourage donations, we could do mini-challenges within the games, and see if we can get people to agree to donate if we meet them.
We could also make a price for choosing, say, which soundtrack to use on Sonic CD.
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I think the mini-challenges might extend the games a bit *too* much. I think going for all Chaos Emerald/Good endings would be the best sort of challenge.
As for Sonic CD, there's really no way to... choose which one we use on the fly, I don't think...
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As for Sonic CD, there's really no way to... choose which one we use on the fly, I don't think...
I have a US original and a JP burned copy. So yes, we can.
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Hmm... very interesting.
I think Sonic would be the best series to do a solid (read:marathon) run of...
I would opt to participate, but I'm completely inconsistant, and currently have no working hardware (controller damage for Gen/SCD, and lack of cords for my saturn/Dreamcast... I have mega collection, but I despise my controller (all I have is a homebrew hybrid which is tourny-illegal))
I do, however, want to see it happen. If Samus gets her games played, Sonic should get his too...
stupid samus with her boobs and whatnot....
>_> *runs like a bitch*
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I updated the first post's game list. Look:
Sonic the Hedgehog (1991) - Collect all Emeralds and finish.
Sonic the Hedgehog CD - Collect time stones? and finish.
[Tails solo games here?]
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 - Collect all Emeralds and finish.
[Spinball here?]
[Chaotix here? Where does this fit in 'continuity'?]
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 and Knuckles - Collect all Emeralds and finish as Sonic and Knuckles.
[3D Blast here?]
Sonic Advance - Complete Sonic's story with all Emeralds.
Sonic Adventure DX - Complete each character's story and Final.
Sonic Advance 2 - Complete Sonic's story with all Emeralds.
Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Complete both stories and Final.
Sonic Battle - Complete story mode.
Sonic Heroes - Collect all Emeralds, complete all stories and Final.
Sonic Advance 3 - Complete with Sonic and Tails with all Emeralds.
Shadow the Hedgehog - ???
[Sonic Rush here?]
Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) - Complete all stories and Final.
[Sonic Rush Adventure here?]
Sonic Unleashed - ???
Sonic Shuffle [?] - Bonus.
Out of order:
Sonic R? Riders? Rivals? Secret Rings? Game Gear games? Should these be bonus games after the end of the 'main' run, like Shuffle, or included in some proper place?
I also think that running SSBB Classic Mode with Sonic would be a nice bonus 'game'.
What I like about the latter part of this 'chronology' order is the alternation between handheld and console titles. It'll add a lot of variety, though may cause some logistical issues. Opinions?
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Japanese. It's the only true one.
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For Sonic Advance 2, we'd need all the characters (save Amy) completed to reach True Area 53. And all emeralds with Sonic. I dunno about emeralds about other characters, but still--drat! I just remembered you UNLOCK characters too. Perhaps forget True Area 53?
For Sonic Advance 3, you have to get all the chao and then get a key to have a CHANCE of getting an emerald. And the keys almost always require re-entry to a previous level (unless it appears ahead of the last grabbed chao). So I dunno if I would suggest Nonaggression.
For Shadow, I suggest... I dunno. All levels? All endings to get to The Last Way would take twice as long, and this game in itself forces level repetition.
Riders Story Mode wouldn't be that bad of an idea. But only as a bonus.
For the Genesis games, I don't think emeralds are really necessary... Except 3&K. That's necessary. Sonic 3D Blast... optional, I guess. But it works all the same.
Also IRC chat brought up a general idea of seperate teams, but I'm not copying the lines.
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How I envisage this will work is having 'teams' of members who can be in the same place geographically. From current numbers it seems like we may well get a UK team and two US teams. Each team needs a capture card and a room card. That's a necessity.
Because people need to sleep over the course of the marathon, the team that is actually running the stream, etc, will need to change (as teams are going to be of 3-4 people it seems). Then, any people playing games from other locations (be it Germany, Australia, the Moon) would stream their game (capture card if possible) and an additional voice/room cam feed to the active team, who can add it to the main stream. This causes a huge delay but means the active team's room cam can still be on, and avoids having a single person running the show for any length of time.
Skype could be a useful tool for voice feeds. Other than that, multiple Ustream feeds would work for getting video to each other.
When a team is playing a game there needs to be decisions such as is one person running the game, or are we switching players after each zone? Who is manning the chat? But this will be decided much later.
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On the topic of length of time for Emerald Collection...
Sonic 1 wouldn't really be much longer with it. Just would mean the player would make an active attempt to get 50 rings on at least 6 of the Acts, and then play a really short Special Stage. Game could easily be beaten in 40 minutes.
Sonic 2 would probably be a bit longer, but really not more than an hour and a half. Having Super Sonic for the later levels could speed things up as well.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles, of course agreed.
For these ones, I have no idea about, so enlighten me:
Sonic Advance 2, wouldn't that essentially just be 3 normal playthroughs, plus 1 playthrough with Sonic going through extra work to get the Chaos Emeralds? That couldn't take more than 2 hours, could it?
Sonic Advance 3, what's the whole key and chao thing? Could someome estimate how long completing the game would take in this case, how difficult it would be, etc.?
I think the Riders games have just as much right to be in the game as, say, the Drift games. They have a story mode, and the story mode isn't relatively long. We just have to make sure someone good at the games is playing so that no levels are lost and have to be repeated. Riders definetly wouldn't need to be completed any further than Story mode, though.
For Shadow... how long would seeing all 10 endings actually take? I mean, the 3D games were going to take longer in the first place. SA, SA2, Heroes, S360 would take long anyway, so it's not like Shadow being long is that big a deal.
I am willing to concede that getting the Emeralds in the GG ones that have it seems largely useless, but it also wouldn't make the times on them much longer and would show off skill.
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For Shadow... how long would seeing all 10 endings actually take? I mean, the 3D games were going to take longer in the first place. SA, SA2, Heroes, S360 would take long anyway, so it's not like Shadow being long is that big a deal.
That depends on which story paths you take. Perhaps by taking a look at each individual mission time, the 10 best paths could be found.
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I've never played Shadow and only have a rough view of how it works, but fo reach potential path, all the stages would still be played, correct? If so, someone should absolutely plan a route out for that game and see. [Don't include the best times for each mission on the chart, obviously, but more of a average time or the time of whoever's playing.]
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For Shadow... how long would seeing all 10 endings actually take? I mean, the 3D games were going to take longer in the first place. SA, SA2, Heroes, S360 would take long anyway, so it's not like Shadow being long is that big a deal.
That depends on which story paths you take. Perhaps by taking a look at each individual mission time, the 10 best paths could be found.
Even then there'd still be repetition. The closest thing you'll get to non-repetition is doing different missions on the same stages, and that'd still be the same stages, somewhat. That may not keep the viewers. And remember that it's not just going through the game itself, but the fact people are watching.
HOWEVER... Perhaps if five of the endings are completed beforehand...
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I'm not sure if each stage should be played or just the fastest available levels.
Finding 10 paths that go through each level at least once could work. Okay, maybe 5 would be better. I also think the Last Story should also be played.
Only thing I'm not sure about is if the game should be played on a new save (with cutscenes you can't skip the first time, no secret keys collected, and no special weapons initially) or on a completed save (skippable cutscenes, all keys, and all weapons from the start).
In addition, since the game has an Expert Mode, perhaps a run through that mode might be doable? It'll have to be done on a 100% file due to the unlock method.
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I personally think it should be as simple as going through each level at least once so the viewers who haven't played it know of the places. Meaning a minimum of five routes. The 100% idea is brilliant as the biggest difference for new users is skippable cutscenes. Which are optionally skipped, so they can watch them. And I'd suggest saving expert modes for the bonus category.
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I don't see why keeping viewers in that case is such a huge issue, nor playing through the same stage twice. For Heroes, the same stages are going to be played through 4 times. Things like that will give people a chance to, you know, actually go to sleep or get food or the like.
I don't really understand how 5 is a fair compromise, could someone explain it to me? I feel like it would be defeating the spirit of "beating" all these games, as they wouldn't technically be beaten. That's why I think clean saves are best.
You do bring up another good point, about cutscenes. How many games have skippable cutscenes on a fresh save? Do we want to keep cutscenes in? I think they could be interesting to watch, I have no idea if they'd extend the runs too long, though.
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...good points, I guess. Though I don't know the average attention span or if people want to see repeats or not for those that are watching...
Also you need a minimum of five routes to go through every stage. And I said skippable cutscenes don't matter because it's optional to skip them. Just don't skip them on a run.
Also I was under the impression we were just going to show levels for the sake of showing the levels. I would like to know the intent of this.
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The intentions afaik would be, in order:
A. To make money for a charity.
B. To entertain.
C. To show "Beating the game" runs for as many games on that list as possible.
D. To show "100%" runs for as many games on that list as possible, preferably in order of most feasible.
The issue kind of comes around with what constitutes beating and what constitutes 100%. I think 100%ing say, Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 would be getting all the emeralds. But for S3&K, getting all the Emeralds would just be part of beating it due to Doomsday Zone.
The split screen thing I talked about, if we really wanted to we could do that during some of the weaker spots of Shadow and Heroes. If we do, we should only do that if people in the chat seem to want it at the time, and we can just run it on the fly.
In addition, after the run is over, I see the split screen thing as going like, On one screen someone earning emblems in SA or SA2, while on the other, someone does a full completion of an Advance game or plays through S2 or S3&K with Knuckles. Stuff like that.
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The intent is threefold. A game marathon is typically a sort of show of endurance, continually playing games for a prolonged length of time (in a tag team), and a series or 'theme' of games is usually chosen. By selecting the Sonic series, and having this marathon done "by TSC", we demonstrate that we play Sonic and are serious about it, and can show off some neat gameplay. By broadcasting this 'thon, and making it interesting to watch, we can hopefully gain a lot of viewers who will raise a lot of money for charity. Take, for example, the Metroid marathon currently running, which has raised almost $5400.
Taking all that into account, you can see that the gameplay is not necessarily all there is to it. It is, however, the part that we - as a whole - can do and do well. So we are starting from there and working toward where we need to be for the marathon.
The whole thing has to be entertaining, both the players as well as what they're playing. Audience participation is important so players need to keep an eye on the chat. Such interaction can also be very important to acquire maximum donations. Ustream also has a poll system, and I would suggest we come up with a series of polls to run ahead of time, as well as adding some on the fly.
Speaking of on the fly: A lot of changes may be made. 48, 72 or 100 hours is quite a long time. People will need to be very adaptable.
The purpose is not really to demonstrate each game. It is to demonstrate our ability to play them by beating them efficiently. When I say 'not particularly a speed run' I more or less mean it's not like we're aiming for the records on each level. I mean think about it, when you are time attacking, how many times do you quit and restart halfway? What we want is nice coherent runs.
To that end, for a lot of these games we must define what 'beating' it is. I think a lot of games with added levels and bosses (i.e. 'Final' stories) sort of make this obvious. The problem arises in Shadow because EVERY path starts with Westopolis. Getting all endings takes 10 paths - or rather, 5 paths twice. That means every level is repeated at least once. Doing all levels takes 5 paths, but still requires 13 level repetitions I believe. I suggested, originally, doing the true hero, neutral and true dark paths. If we are going to limit the stages we do play, those are the least arbitrary paths - if anything they're the only paths at ALL that make sense. And it eliminates all level repetition except Westopolis. To avoid all level repetition, we would limit ourselves to one path only.
About Advance 2. Somebody said, 'Is it not just three normal runs, then Sonic plus Emeralds?" Problem is, the three supporting characters are unlocked during Sonic's game. Seeing them unlocked adds a little interest to the playthrough, too.
This may call for some across the board definition of beating. We could define it as, say, reaching the credits (or at -least- reaching the credits). Ideas?
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Well the run for Advance 2 would basically be... play Sonic up till Egg Utopia, collecting Emeralds along the way. Then beat it with the other 3, and then have Sonic beat XX Zone and True Area 53.
I am conflicted with Shadow. I really, REALLY don't think repeating stages is that big a deal. It will be done in Heroes. It will be done in other games. If people watching really find it boring, we could always start up a split second feed to be starting another game or something. [If this is the case, we'll probably need to rework the order of games... I figure we'll have to anyway with 3 groups.] So.
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Well the run for Advance 2 would basically be... play Sonic up till Egg Utopia, collecting Emeralds along the way. Then beat it with the other 3, and then have Sonic beat XX Zone and True Area 53.
I am conflicted with Shadow. I really, REALLY don't think repeating stages is that big a deal. It will be done in Heroes. It will be done in other games. If people watching really find it boring, we could always start up a split second feed to be starting another game or something. [If this is the case, we'll probably need to rework the order of games... I figure we'll have to anyway with 3 groups.] So.
It would also be dull - who wants to watch the same game beaten over and over again? I call one run through each game to keep some interest in the thing.
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But then that isn't one run through a game, that's part of a run... That would be like saying, oh, we're only going to play Sonic's story in Sonic Adventure, or we're only going to play Hero Side in SA2.
If we're going to have a consistent rule, then it has to actually be consistent. The Metroid Marathon guys are on their 3rd run-through of Prime. What you don't seem to get is that viewers are cycling in and out. Many have stayed, but new ones come in throughout the course of the run, and some old ones leave because of other obligations.
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But then that isn't one run through a game, that's part of a run... That would be like saying, oh, we're only going to play Sonic's story in Sonic Adventure, or we're only going to play Hero Side in SA2.
If we're going to have a consistent rule, then it has to actually be consistent. The Metroid Marathon guys are on their 3rd run-through of Prime. What you don't seem to get is that viewers are cycling in and out. Many have stayed, but new ones come in throughout the course of the run, and some old ones leave because of other obligations.
Oh I get that bit, I just don't think there's any value in playing adv2 with all characters given that it's all much the same. With the others, the difference is much more marked (in Adventure they get different levels). A good comparison is Knux in S2 where you take pretty much the same routes and the game path is the same, with Knux in S3&K where he has his own routes and game path. I think there's enough content for us to go through to not have to double up, and even if we do then we should do it with the most well-known and enjoyed games of the series (which adv2 is not).
Having said that, I'm happy to do multiple runs if people want.
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Long post ahead afgak...
I guess some voting would help out here on what we should do. I think finding out what we want is a good place to start.
-Should we collect all emeralds?
-Which games would you like to be feature in the playthough and which are "excessive baggage"?
-What about games with the same title but are featured in different platforms (Sonic 1 Genesis/Game Gear versions)?
-What about the final story/boss/levels?
-Any game should be played as Sonic/SS unless a variation of playstyle and layouts are available.
-If another character can do a certain stage faster than Sonic, should they be switched for the time being?
-What about Tails? Should a second player be controlled? It'll help in Hydrocity 1 in the beginning, bosses, and a few other areas.
So in order of mainstream games:
Classic-
Sonic 1, Sonic CD, (SegaSonic Arcade?), Sonic 2 (with Tails?) S3&K, (Knuckles' Chaotix?) Sonic 3dBlast, (Sonic the Fighters?), and then Sonic R(?)
-Sonic CD can be a bit problematic whether we should go to the past and future stages, US vs EU/JP soundtrack, and Time Stones collection.
-For Sonic 3, two playthroughs; one for Sonic's story, and then another for Knuckles'.
-Sonic R=should we do this? If so what about unlocking characters and difficulty settings?
Modern-
(Sonic Pocket Adventure?), Sonic Adventue (DX?), (Sonic Shuffle?), Sonic Adventue 2 (Battle?), Sonic Advance, Sonic Advance 2, Sonic Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Rush, Sonic Battle, Sonic Advance 3, (Sonic Riders?).
-Should we playthrough all the other three teams in Sonic Heroes?
-Playing through Rush from start to finish with both characters can be finished quickly; whether we should get to the final boss or not.
-For Shadow, I think the best tactic would be to do each stage once. Getting a file that has already completed the final boss will take out repetition of levels. We could just take different routes until each stage is eventually played, then move onto the final story. The other tactic would be to do "everything" and start from a non-save. This can take quite a few hours to do, so I really would suggest to avoid it. Most of the level objectives are monotonous work and time consuming anyway; it'll get boring quickly.
-For Advance 2, I guess we could do the same thing and just do a play though from start to finish on an all character save file and play as Sonic and get all emeralds, then move on to True Area 53. Another idea would be to show the storylines of unlocking the characters, stop recoding and do Tails, Knuckles, and Cream fully while recording another game; and then move onto True Area 53.
-Sonic Advance 3 has different team work aspects and I think that character switching should be done every so often when feasible.
Current-
Sonic '06 D:, (Rivals?), Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Riders 2: Shooting Star Story, (Rivals 2?), Unleashed, (Dark Brotherhood?), (Black Night?) D:
I'm not up to speed with most of these games. So I wouldn't know what not to do. I guess just play through Story mode and finish should be the easiest feat.
I've omitted all of the Game Gear and puzzle games and gave a question mark to those weather we should do or not as optional. We also have crossovers (Christmas NiGHTS, Superstar Tennis and Mario-Olympics) which should be put on a league of their own. I say that all of those listed up first up here should be done first. If time persists, we can go back to do the others. Doing the final bosses and collecting the emeralds aren't that hard, to do.
Edit: Cleared up a few things and forgot a few games.
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-For Advance 2, I guess we could do the same thing and just do a play though from start to finish on an all character save file and play as Sonic and get all emeralds, then move on to True Area 53. Another idea would be to show the storylines of unlocking the characters, stop recoding and do Tails, Knuckles, and Cream fully while recording another game; and then move onto True Area 53.
How about this, but for all games that could be deemed too long. Possibly Shadow's extra stories. Heroes' other characters.
The problem with this, though, is dividing attention too much...
I'm also not big on the idea of doing a seperate S3&K run for Knuckles, but eh.
I guess we really should just have a poll of, which is more important: Clean save files showing a completion of the game as it's "meant" to be done, or just running through all the stages?
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I'm more in favour of beating games as they were 'meant' to be done.
With regards to S3&K, I did have the idea that after doing Sonic (or Sonic and Tails) through it, we could do Knuckles in S&K only. In S3 the differences tend to be more minor I think?
Also, should we do S3&K together or separately? If above I had said I was in favour of 'doing all the stages' I would probably have said separately, that way you get the extra boss. But personally I feel they should be one game. So, second poll (omg two at the same time? crazy): S3 and S&K or S3&K?
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-Should we collect all emeralds?
iono, that would be full completion but then TSC is primarily a speedrunning site, so showing that off would be cool too. It would be embarrassing in, say adv2, if you missed one and had to restart >_>
-Which games would you like to be feature in the playthough and which are "excessive baggage"?
I'd go for more games before more playthroughs, personally. Also Spinball amirite? (NO PINBALL PARTY PPA).
-What about games with the same title but are featured in different platforms (Sonic 1 Genesis/Game Gear versions)?
They're different games entirely, chuck 'em in.
-What about the final story/boss/levels?
Depends on the game. I wouldn't say TA53 is necessary for adv2, but you have to do sufficiently different stuff in Adventure that full completion would work.
-Any game should be played as Sonic/SS unless a variation of playstyle and layouts are available.
I'd be pro a full Knux run through S3&K, actually - his routes are sufficiently different.
-If another character can do a certain stage faster than Sonic, should they be switched for the time being?
Not just for speed, no. We want it to be interesting and demonstrate skill.
-What about Tails? Should a second player be controlled? It'll help in Hydrocity 1 in the beginning, bosses, and a few other areas.
I like this because more people involved = win. Dunno what others think though.
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Depends on the game. I wouldn't say TA53 is necessary for adv2, but you have to do sufficiently different stuff in Adventure that full completion would work.
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I'd be pro a full Knux run through S3&K, actually - his routes are sufficiently different.
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Not just for speed, no. We want it to be interesting and demonstrate skill.
Agreed on all these counts. I am personally undecided on the 2P co-op control being used, though.
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I'm indifferent to the Tails control. I'm not for it, but I wouldn't be offended if we went with it.
CF, are you interested in pursuing Advance 2 without going to the final zone? I dunno, just seems weird to me to say, "Complete these games, but don't complete these ones."
I would not be opposed to a Knuckles run of S3&K, but only if we can fit it in with all the other games. IE, Knuckles should not take the place of any other Sonic games.
Same thing with Knuckles in Sonic 2, just because... it's kind of cool.
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I'm indifferent to the Tails control. I'm not for it, but I wouldn't be offended if we went with it.
CF, are you interested in pursuing Advance 2 without going to the final zone? I dunno, just seems weird to me to say, "Complete these games, but don't complete these ones."
I would not be opposed to a Knuckles run of S3&K, but only if we can fit it in with all the other games. IE, Knuckles should not take the place of any other Sonic games.
Same thing with Knuckles in Sonic 2, just because... it's kind of cool.
If we're going for absolute completionism then I can pull out runs for all the adv2 chars and do TA53, although I'm not looking forward to re-learning the special stage routes if I'm honest (actually, can I have a crack at a pure-speed run too? I reckon I could bring it home in under 30 minutes total time, which would make for a pretty sweet-looking run :).
Wait what - this topic has got me itching to play adv2 again. DAMN YOU ALL AND THE FREE TIME YOU'RE GOING TO COST ME
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I think including a full run and a "speed" run at the same time would be out of place. I still recommend you try doing a speed run for SDA or something, though.
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Ok here's how we could avoid TA53 without creating double standards.
Look at S&K (S3&K): You can do Mushroom Hill (Angel Island) to Doomsday in one run, from a blank file. In Sonic Advance 2 you cannot do this. I say we go from booting up games with no save data to whatever the game has as a 'finish line'.
So in Classics, get the Emeralds too. Just because it's cool. However, in the case of a cock up and not all Emeralds are gotten, no restarting. Just live with it. Or don't do it. (Side note: much practicing beforehand).
In Advances, play Sonic's story. If it is feasible to get him into an extra stage without having to back out of the game and back into it, great (Adva1? I don't know how that one flies). If not, tough luck.
In modern home console games, each story is significantly different. So we play all of 'em. Heroes... well... if we get a lot of younger Sonic fans watching they'll love that anyway <_<
In various discussions around GM.com and the like, it has occurred (and been told) to me that trying to make your first marathon huge success is not very feasible. So I think we should consider making the Sonic marathon a long term goal: Sonic is what we do, this is why we're getting into the marathon scene, we won't necessarily stick around (at least as one whole unit) after it is done. To this end it might be an idea to come up with some 'warm up' marathons so to speak. Get used to doing the whole thing, get some experience, get to know the software and hardware inside out.
Relatedly, I implore you all to watch as many marathons as you can, especially ones done by different groups. It's like if you want to write: read a lot. Want to do marathons? Watch a lot.
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I guess that sounds like a plan. Leave the Advance games to be "lesser", and only cover Sonic's story in them [well, in Advance 3 I don't think there'd be any issue with switching characters around whenever the player feels like it, but]. Heroes, though, yeah. Kind of fits into both categories there. Each one has it's own "story' but each one is also exactly the same, so... it can bo either way, only covering Team Sonic's story or covering all 4.
I think that, if we stir up a lot of commotion before hand about how many games we'll be doing, if we post on forums and make a name for ourselves, things like that, it shouldn't be hard to get at least 50 people in when the run "begins" and more as it goes on. But that could be wishful thinking.
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I'm indifferent to the Tails control. I'm not for it, but I wouldn't be offended if we went with it.
CF, are you interested in pursuing Advance 2 without going to the final zone? I dunno, just seems weird to me to say, "Complete these games, but don't complete these ones."
I would not be opposed to a Knuckles run of S3&K, but only if we can fit it in with all the other games. IE, Knuckles should not take the place of any other Sonic games.
Same thing with Knuckles in Sonic 2, just because... it's kind of cool.
If we're going for absolute completionism then I can pull out runs for all the adv2 chars and do TA53, although I'm not looking forward to re-learning the special stage routes if I'm honest (actually, can I have a crack at a pure-speed run too? I reckon I could bring it home in under 30 minutes total time, which would make for a pretty sweet-looking run :).
Wait what - this topic has got me itching to play adv2 again. DAMN YOU ALL AND THE FREE TIME YOU'RE GOING TO COST ME
I wanted to do a SS speedrun :(. I wouldnt like to try to learn the paths for the Special Rings but it might be fun O.o . Also glad to know your going to start playing adv2.
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I wanted to do a SS speedrun :(. I wouldnt like to try to learn the paths for the Special Rings but it might be fun O.o . Also glad to know your going to start playing adv2.
I've memorized the pathways for the SP rings in Advance 2. Should I do it? :o
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I wouldn't have a problem playing heroes for that long >_>
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From the sounds of what we hope to achieve, setting the goal at 100 hours doesn't seem too farfetched.
I personally will try to get involved in at least some kind of broadcasting before this goes off... I want to get to know what's going on well.
Tentative Sonic-a-thon date: On or around 23rd June. If you don't get why, look it up (and shame on you).
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Obviously, because June 23rd is my birthday. >_>
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Because June 23rd is the day that TSC will be 68 months old, duh!
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*avoids the obvious*
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Rolken's anniversary? No wait, that was 7/7...
/me shot.
Also I agree with what CF said about game details.
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CF, I looked back at the original post, and I just wanted to say that, personally, I much prefer the idea of doing the games in release order rather than some semi-arbitrary "chronological" order. With that said, I see it much more likely that the order won't really be very exact with multiple groups playing. People need to sleep at different time zones and meh.
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CF, I looked back at the original post, and I just wanted to say that, personally, I much prefer the idea of doing the games in release order rather than some semi-arbitrary "chronological" order. With that said, I see it much more likely that the order won't really be very exact with multiple groups playing. People need to sleep at different time zones and meh.
I've been thinking about this. Release order is nice because we get to 'see' the development of the series from the classic games to the not-so-classic games to the downright crap.
When I concocted that chronology though, I quite liked the alternation of handheld/home console titles. Keeps it varied. But I guess we'll still get something to that effect in release order? I shall check the list again.
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To answer what T said earlier I wouldn't mind doing Mean Bean somewhere. </waylate>
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I'm for adding Mean Bean and Pinball Party if people want to do them.
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mean bean was a fun game.
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I only beat Mean Bean once...I suck at it.
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I don't. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8dS_L5DNtE)
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Wait.
SBW.
Not sucking.
SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT.
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Phh, that isn't that impressive. I also beat Satan multiple times in Puyo Puyo.
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I'm in on this, if nothing else I'll provide color commentary and police the channel...though if we've got some folks in the Northeast forming a group, I'll show up.
If it's just me by my lonesome, I'd take it upon myself to clear classic as Sonic in Brawl (...maybe intense boss battles and tt's too? Perhaps I could get in contact with a pro Sonic for a few dittos or even a token Mario/Sonic standoff, I understand we want to keep Smash's bit short and sweet, but all the same I think it would be entertaining) since that's more of a diversion and doesn't necessitate the presence of a congregation, while at the same time not running into more complex things other players will be doing.
Anyways, this is meant as an exhibition, so we should consider the audience and more clearly define our goal. Right now, we're at an unhealthy middle of "flashy with skills but raw completion too". Seeing someone clear Sonic Advance 2 as Sonic in a flash is great fun, as is watching Sonic explore the subtler nuances of the game, but the hackneyed combination of "watch Sonic run as fast as he can on a rigidly described route and then excrutiatingly clear several special stages" isn't so hot. Pick a crowd, and stick with it.
On the note of games requiring multiple playthroughs as different characters to unlock the final bosses: why not have a few players synchronize their runs with game saves at different points upon which each character is unlocked? For example, in Advance 2 one player would run through Leaf Forest as Sonic from the beginning while another has a file with Leaf Forest Zone completed and simultaneously plays through the game, yet another playing with Tails loading from Ice Palace, etc. with a split feed broadcasting everything...for a really trippy effect, each run as a different character could begin exactly when the Sonic player 'unlocks' them by clearing the zone in which they appear. If nothing else, I think the idea of premade saves should be carried over for 'last' stories in the like, nothing's lost in transition just because one or two bits of grinding weren't done.
I'd say more, but I'm drained, and I hope it shows.
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Can we get some thoughts on completion times for each game? For games where we haven't yet finely defined "completion", give an array of times for different levels of completion, if you will.
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I can do Tails Adventures. Here's one of my runs.
http://www.justin.tv/axon64/b/302334525