The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: yse on December 20, 2007, 07:43:58 am
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About six months ago there was a pretty serious discussion about the current state of TSC. It was generally agreed that TSC was in decline for a number of reasons, but it was similarly agreed that the decline was not terminal.
After six months, though, seems as good a time as any to review what's happened since then. It came up in IRC, and I made my views known there, and will do so again here. So here we go, a summary as best I can remember:
1. Tournaments got underway.
Starting out as an experiment to determine a format, I started a tournament and Thorn followed suit. I'm not sure this was the best idea, to have two tournaments running concurrently, but at the same time I could never have envisaged Thorn's tournament running for over three months. In terms of our stated objectives, however, it certainly did nothing to bring in new members, and it didn't really prove much we didn't already know.
2. Gerbil took a lot of control over coding aspects of the site.
Since this subtle transfer of power, a lot more has got done on TSC. This is not a slam at Rolken (who of course has a hot wife and therefore more important things to attend to more often than not), and indeed Gerbil's work has created its fair share of downtime, but on the whole getting things done both on-the-fly and in a reasonable time frame has been an improvement.
3. New members have remained steady.
While this seems okay on the surface, it must be said that the proportion of new members who have no intention but to cheat the system seems higher than usual. Or maybe I'm just taking into account that SS94 has registered no less than ten (yes, ten!) accounts. I've stayed a bit detached from this as I have returned to competing, but SM seems to have deleted more stuff than usual.
4. Activity is declining.
If you looked through New Stats, you wouldn't pick this, but that can be attributed in large part to Thorn, who has had the whole site in uproar against DsS for the last week. And it worked, activity is twice usual this week. Maybe I should make topics like that.
However, the prevailing trend is definitely down, and nobody I've talked to about it has any ideas about how to reverse this, without resorting to drawing in large quantities of the "undesirables" (you know the kind of people I'm talking about).
5. Sonic games still suck.
Most accentuated by the fact that Rivals 2 came out last month, and nobody seems to acknowledge it or else forget that it exists. (Which, on recent form, is probably the sensible course of action.) This is a key contributing factor to drawing in more of the "undesirables" spoken of earlier, because it's hard to find an intelligent person who can stand the drivel that Sega's churning out these days.
And I haven't even started on the largest problem, at least for me: the place is simply no fun to be around any more.
I do not deny that I have met some pretty amazing people through this site. I need not name them because they know who they are. (I will, however, put genus out of his misery by suggesting that he is not one of them.)
But for every witty remark or cool personality I come across, there are three of cynicism, mistreatment of newbies, arrogance, ignorance, or just plain annoyance. It is the kind of atmosphere that is self-destructive, and stands in the way of our goals.
I have always said that our diversity makes our community great, and I will stand by that, with one caveat: a certain degree of intelligence and common sense. That was what I loved about TSC... and that part of it seems to have steadily drained away.
I don't know what else to say. There's not really much else, I suppose.
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GENUS IS A HE?
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HEY SONIC RUSH ADVENTURE DOESNT SUCK :(
also this is deep stuff, mike. Perhaps in order to bring in new intelligent members, we need to attack and destroy prolific idiots elsewhere so that intelligent members can come out of hiding and flock to our cause.
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As long as every of you narrow minded pesimists continue to say that Sonic games suck, of course, those who think different don't want to be around you anymore. That's exacly one reason why many users of Sonic forums (not only here) just leave those forums and why not many new people join them. You make them sick.
Even if you guys love it so much to bash down Sonic 06 because it had glitches, long loading times and bla, and even if you count Sonic Riders as a bad game for whatever reason, and even if you hate Shadow the Hedgehog for its gunplay and bla, and even if you hate Sonic Heroes for various reasons, and even if the Sonic Advance games wheren't your type, and even if you ignore the existance of Sonic Battle and Sonic Pinball Party, because they are good, but not normal Sonic games, the awesomeness of the two Sonic Rush games is undeniable. Also, Sonic and the Secret Rings is a game that not everybody can understand, but has very high quality, is very original, and once you really get into it, waaaaay awesome. But some people just seem to love to ignore these, because they love to hate Sonic these days. You, for example, instead of naming Sonic Rush Adventure, name Sonic Rivals 2, a game which is not even made by Sonic Team, is a racing game instead of a normal 2D Sonic game, is a PSP game, and hence noone really cared about it in the first place, when the first one came out last year. You deliberately pick up the unsuccessful games and totally forget about the successful ones and talk as if in the last few years all Sonic games have been extremely bad. Not to mention that all the recent games that have been put down so much have a lot of beautiful things about them, but not many people are able to realize that.
If you guys (just to make it clear, I haven't been directly speaking about Yse all the time, but all the people who have nothing better to do than say how much Sonic sucks) where really Sonic fans, you hadn't been using every opportunity to bruit to the world how much Sonic and Sonic Team and Sega suck these days, ignoring all their good games. If Sonic is dead to you, please just leave Sonic alone and don't frustrate other people so much who still love playing Sonic games. You are not doing any good to anyone.
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Okay, I've seen Stardust's kind before. And they annoy me.
Look, just because you're a "Sonic fan" doesn't mean always look at everything "positive" about the games and ignore everything else. True fans of something should point out errors in games.
And now, someone finish this post for me. I'm no good at long messages.
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Damnit how did I know this was going to happen.
I want this topic to have a clear focus, and someone takes a minor point and makes a big fuss about it.
I'm all for you presenting your opinion on the Sonic games, but it's not really relevant in this topic.
(Incidentally, what Sondow said is 100% true)
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9 or 10?, Doesnt matter, how I delete??, that matter, I delete like 8 or 9..
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OK, I am sorry to guide the topic to the wrong way. I could answer Pidgey something, but I won't, since this is apparently not the place to talk about such things.
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Funny how mike summarized a lot of my feelings about TSC and how I've noticed it's changes in development recently (for the worse).
Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot.
Ignorance and bashing is also common here and, no, it is not bliss. FAR from it.
I won't touch on the Sonic games being suckish comment as everyone else will, I imagine. But I'm having second thoughts about a lot of things.
Riders 2 competition is the only thing I'm looking forward to here as I'm almost certain noone has the decency or the willingness to make my sub-site go up...
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About the place not being fun anymore, I only agree about the annoyance part. That probably means I'm arrogant though. :D (I seem to be it sometimes)
Otherwise the place is still very cool, if you just try to forget the people who can't say anything other than Gerbil fads, which is a lot of people who seem to be or think they're respected, sadly.
It's cool because it's what it has always been, but more. There are more games to compete in (and screw anyone thinking we still shouldn't aim for completion, bring on that Rivals 2, and Shuffle too) and when you're into it it's certainly better than anything else in life.
I can't wait to be into it again.
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I'm just hear to read the comments.
Its just that even though I'm a vet, me being gone for that longest of time I haven't even gotten to know what this "time of awesome" that TSC was except for its earliest days before everyone chatted. Its just the fact that I missed out on a lot that I cant really comment or say how things have been going downhill as others seem to notice. I've been oblivious to this site's shortcomings, but certain events haven't bothered me as much as admins point out. This isn't the first time this subject has been brought up, and feels it's going somewhere this time instead of just an idea/problem for the time being. For the most part and while reading the discussions, I mainly felt that some people were overreacting to certain situations, but maybe they aren't and its just me being ignorant (which that's the case :/).
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What we have here at Sonic Center is a neat idea that created a really great site. A site like that claims attention, and that quality brings a lot of people to here. Among them, interesting guys who want to keep sonic games' competition in a high level. But among them, we will also have those newbies that only want to annoy everyone else. Big and competent sites like this one will always be annoyed by those types, there's no other way, but we can't give up offering a good competition (and everything else) just because of them.
I can't describe my happiness when I found The Sonic Center four years ago. It was like my wish of a competition site has become true. I know that I won't help much with this, but I thought that was a good occasion to say what I think about this place.
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It's cool because it's what it has always been, but more. There are more games to compete in (and screw anyone thinking we still shouldn't aim for completion, bring on that Rivals 2, and Shuffle too) and when you're into it it's certainly better than anything else in life.
I can't wait to be into it again.
FINALLY! A non-critical comment on Shuffle. TY, F-Man.
But seriously, ALL THE PROPOSALS we suggested and the ones that are STILL pending SHOULD be added.
It's aiding in what I think of the site now... well, more of the admins anyway.
But srsly, TSC IS a great place, undoubtedly. It's the forums that bring it down.. that and competition issues. Issues aside, I'm glad I found TSC more than a year ago. I srsly hope this site doesn't go down. Whenever the account gets suspended, I start to panic. :)
Despite everything I said, TSC should not be dismissed entirely as a site that's starting to lose its appeal. Although that may be true, if it weren't for some glaring issues (example, laziness, unwillingness to compromise/turn around, criticisms, not adding stuff, etc.) people wouldn't have anything notably bad about the site.
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Sonic into Dreams for TSC.
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Otherwise the place is still very cool, if you just try to forget the people who can't say anything other than Gerbil fads, which is a lot of people who seem to be or think they're respected, sadly.
thats what i have been thinking forever now but i have never been able to say it without sound super mean. you da man! also please tell me by "get into it" you mean compete again, cause it would be awesome to see the 3D god back in action, it has not been THAT long but it seems like it has.
I hope this topic is not referring to me as the "undesirable" if so, you have me completely misunderstood, probably cause of what I did during rough spots. if you are not talking about me that is cool.
I can say new games sucking is a good thing, cause then people will play more of the good and old 2D/3D games, which builds up total players and fiercer competition, instead of a new game every month with 10 players and weak records. tho that might prevent potential members cause I know how some people are they gotta play only the newest games and cannot even look at an "old" one as if they will die or something. but I doubt it would matter much if at all tho in the long run.
other than that, GS is kicking ass as a site updater, alot of bugs that I hated are being fixed finally :) among other cool new features. change of power is good, if the original power holder has no free time to make best use of his power.
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change of power is good, if the original power holder has no free time to make best use of his power.
Very well said.
And don't worry Paragod, noone's targeting you. It's usually me taht gets targeted around here anyway... at the very least, it's being shifted to Darkspines but before it was sonicandamy, but speaking of which what HAPPENED to that guy?
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KS8, I think the less we worry about S&A the better. He doesn't do much but annoy me in #pokemonfuntalk these days anyway.
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I think one of the major problems is a general morale failure. The general fan morale has plummeted A LOT after the release of S06, which might be the cause of recent cynicism. Sure SSRR is fun but flawed and SRA kicks a whole lot of ass (and the RPG will most likely pwn since Bioware's behind it), but the taste of that unfinished beta POS is still quite fresh. I personally have suffered a major loss of competitive drive/morale after playing that broken POS. To me, that game embodies much of the darker side of speed running (something I would rather do without/have no part of in addition to stuff that makes the TBG seem fair being legal), i.e. it becomes more about exploiting glitches (and I mean much more) than about skillful platforming, maneuvering, fighting (which should the primary thing). The whole thing slowly caused speed running to lost that valued fun factor that kept me coming back for more until around March when the drive all but completely disappeared. When I think about it, the comparitively small weight the "dark side" has on speed running compared to the raw skill/strategy factor is why I think ShtH is so fun at high level play.
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Well at least S06 is discontinued now >_>
I have nothing else to say for the time being.
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what do you mean it's discontinued? :P
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He means it's being discontinued. (http://www.sonicstadium.org/sonicnews/385/)
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maybe sonic team will get a fucking clue
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I do think stardust has a somewhat valid point. It's far too often that people, when presented with something they don't like, provide a sort of anti cardstacking argument against it, ignoring all the positive details. Sonic Rush Adventure is a fabulous, wellplayed game that seems to show that neither sonic games nor sonic competition are entirely dead yet.
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He means it's being discontinued. (http://www.sonicstadium.org/sonicnews/385/)
Okay.. now I ABSOLUTELY must buy this game.
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In the words of M. Bison (yes I know he's supposed to be Vega if not for the U.S. Branch of Capcom screwing things up); Yes! Yes! This is delicious! The announcement of this news just made my day.
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He means it's being discontinued. (http://www.sonicstadium.org/sonicnews/385/)
oh I had no idea games being discontinued was reported as news. I thought games get discontinued all the time. And many game stores don't even carry anything but the most newly released games anyway.
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Not exactly true. With exception to bargin bin junk, many good games remain in the shelves for years. The Game Stop where I live still sells games that are several years old (though some of those are used, the point is that the store still has games that are old). This is a special case since 06 sold so poorly due to MASSIVE negative word of mouth from fans and critics (justified BTW) that selling it is a waste of time and money. Maybe this will be a lesson for Sonic Team. Actually make quality titles or go out of business. Its sad really. A good patch could have fixed most of the problems with this game, but ST proved that they could care less about the quality of the products they sell to their fans by both rushing the game and not releasing a patch as an apology for rushing out junk.
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well I guess, but the used games part was kind of moot since they don't count, plus Sonic06 will be available used anyway (every game ever made is readily available used)
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Maybe they're rereleasing it with less bugs and shorter loading?
Whoops, I forgot this is a Sonic Team game. My fault.
well I guess, but the used games part was kind of moot since they don't count, plus Sonic06 will be available used anyway (every game ever made is readily available used)
Good luck trying to get one of the 4 existing carts of Kizuna Encounter.
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There was an INVOLVED discussion in the chat the other day which most of you missed but that is still relevant. Basically a few of us (Rolken, yoshifan, Mike as well I believe, SJ, p discussed the future of TSC, and it went PLACES. I lost the log, but retained the main points.
Basically the main Sonic games, not spinoffs like SRA, aren't very good so it's attracting an ignorant fanbase to the site. Because of this we are not gaining respectable members since nobody in their right mind would enjoy these abominations; most of our new users are either morons or under 12.
As such we need to either merge subsites with the main games and branch out to new trackables, or expand to the online games scene. The issue with the former is that most reputable series have established competitive scenes, and there are very few new franchises around, let alone good new franchises that are competition-worthy. We also run the risk of become Cyberscore Jr, overextending ourselves so the mods are uninformed about the games being tracked and mostly apathetic towards their competition developments. We're allready there, I'd say; none of the 'respected' members play Rivals, and when Rivals2 eventually goes up (it will) they really won't care. This is only going to continue as Sega churns out game after game, most of which won't be given a fair shake because of the major letdown that was Sonic 06.
If we do decide to track more games, we must be selective in what we choose to track. Quality should be a factor here; nobody wants to compete in bad games. Obviously there are a few undesirable games we track now (Rivals, Heroes, 06, Shadow, more, more, more); were we to attempt to broaden the site's focus we would need to consider more carefully what players would want to...play. Obviously we can't very well undo game additions, since someone is going to get shafted from that many rankings removed from the site and it just isn't fair for whoever competed, but in the future we must be more careful.
For the latter suggestion, we would attempt to act as a hub for people who enjoy online games, only in a more general fashion than the lobbies usually present. Think of something along the lines of, say, rankings for Toulose, Magic, AWBW, and all these other fads compounded to show who is just generally good at online games; in conjunction with rankings for single-player games, I believe this would be a first.
Every now and then traditional tournaments (player vs. player and not something like our current situation with challenges) would be held for certain ranked games; from that players would either gain or lose placing overall. Not enough to entirely shift the tides of rankings, but still with sufficient weight to boost status in that game. I imagine there would also be a matchmaking service of sorts for players looking to play in certain games. A matchmaking service not called 'the chatroom'.
Here I see many issues, though. We'll definitely be stretching ourselves thin; fads are by nature shortlived. Nobody plays, say, Pokemon anymore because they found something better, so you'll have a small pool of people interested in a fad at once, making it almost impossible for new users to get a foothold in the rankings. And even if they continue playing, there will be such a large gap from the top dogs to the newbies that most will be discouraged from even playing; after all, it would take an age to reach the top spot, as progress is so slow with your only chance to improve dependant on the schedule of others. There's also the problem of an honor code...if one person reports a false outcome, what would happen? We would side with the more respected member by default...which would definitely increase tensions between players. In the event of two unknowns we wouldn't care which would also spark conflict.
Of the two ideas I am more fond of the first; in either case I think a name change is imperative. The name 'The Sonic Center' isn't even fitting now with subsites...it will be especially irrelevant with the advent of change.
Just a few things to think about where we're going...as for where we are, I see a niche community getting bored of what it has and wanting more, which Sonic Team sadly does not seem able to supply.
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you say it as if putting up Sonic06 was a mistake, but it's not. It has 24 competitors, about the same amount as Secret Rings, and way more than Sonic Rivals. It had informed competition and was played by, among others: RPG, magnum, Psyborg, Thorn, Groudon, Skylights, ks8, me, and of course DSS. And I can't speak for the others but I for one had fun competing in it. And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.
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I'm in favor of the former. There's several pros to this one.
1. If we add in Mario and Mega Man alone, we add in some great games to play and compete in. From MM, the Zero series and Powered Up are the flag ship in terms of competition. The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.
2. In adding Mario and Mega Man to the main branch, we already have several hardened veterans who know the games like the back of their hands that can serve as mods, thus we can establish rulings long before competition sets in.
3. The addition of so many great (and diffferent) games might be the morale kick in the pants we've been needing.
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Try not to forgot about TUSC guys
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The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.
X6 huh?
really.... >_>
and what about X6 in particular makes it bad for competition?
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And I can't speak for the others but I for one had fun competing in it.
Aside from DSS and s&a (who doesn't count anyways), I think you're alone there.
So you see that Sonic06 has 24 competitors and therefore deserved a spot in the rankings to begin with...this compared to 161 from Sonic 1, 140 from Sonic 2, 112 for Sonic 3, 91 from Sonic Rush so you can't claim interest in general is just waning as time goes on, even 73 from Shadow, etc. Such a large discrepancy should tell you that people aren't really interested in playing 06.
If you notice, only 'regulars' hold good rankings in 06...I'm willing to bet most bought the game only to have a bid at a championship. A situation like this is not conducive to competition...once people realize how hard it would be to take the top spot in a game, they just don't care.
The remainder of the chart is filled with the normal crowd of people, with noticeably sparse submissions. I'd say '06 is a failure in terms of competition.
It has 24 competitors, about the same amount as Secret Rings, and way more than Sonic Rivals.
Neither of which we would track if we were to change the scope of the site to include other games. If we diversified the games we were to track, we wouldn't be allowing competition for every single game that came out for a franchise to avoid bulkiness...in spite of what you may think of Secret Rings or Sonic Rivals, neither were really that anticipated and would most likely only garnish a small crowd of competitors. You're applying our current standards of adding games to a prospective future method of assessment, which really shouldn't be done in this context.
And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.
I'll look for that in a while. On a hunch, I'm gonna say it's only a few people pushing for its addition...I will confirm (or disconfirm) this later.
1. If we add in Mario and Mega Man alone, we add in some great games to play and compete in. From MM, the Zero series and Powered Up are the flag ship in terms of competition. The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.
But I'm not suggesting we add whole franchises in, only popular games with a generally disorganized fanbase. We tried tracking whole franchises once, remember? It's what we have now...and we'll be in the same situation if we continue to track bad games.
Do you mean the 'stinkers' are bad games as a whole, or impossible to compete in? Bad games would not be tracked...they are not relevant because nobody enjoys them, or wants to compete in them.
Our goal here should be to encourage competition in games people enjoy, not to just have a few people grimacing when they play games to take a championship.
3. The addition of so many great (and diffferent) games might be the morale kick in the pants we've been needing.
I agree wholeheartedly; TSC needs fresh games to compete in because competitors have taken a pragmatic stance on their standing ("Oh, I'll never beat (person x)", "I'll never be above (place y)", "I can't play (level z)")...more games make people anxious to gun for the top spot (not what we want really, but still positive because any activity in a game is good), and piques interest.
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The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.
X6 huh?
really.... >_>
and what about X6 in particular makes it bad for competition?
Hey hey no.
Take it elsewhere, this isn't the place for that type of argument.
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[Starly] Also you should consider the amount of people here that even -have- a 360 or PS3
<genus> and meanwhile Sonic 1 has 160+
[Starly] As opposed to those with PS2's, GC's and Xbox1's
<genus> that's true, but I didn't mention it
[Starly] genus you can get Sonic 1 on your PC for free
<genus> I hadn't thought of it
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The rest of the conversation:
<Starly> genus you can get Sonic 1 on your PC for free
<genus> I hadn't thought of it
* Starly post
<genus> you can, but the thing is
<genus> even if you compare modern games
<genus> like SRA
<genus> to 06 based on ammount of players
<genus> 06 is markedly low
<genus> in the number of players
<genus> granted we are more a Nintendo-favoring community than anything else
<genus> there are still not enough people competing in 06 to justify its addition after the fact
<genus> and were we to change our standard of game tracking due to a broadened scope
<genus> I doubt it would make the cut
Like I was saying, I do not believe 06 has any procreative value as a venue of competition but this is irrelevant. If we were to not focus on Sonic specifically, there is no way we would ever track 06.
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And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.
I'll look for that in a while. On a hunch, I'm gonna say it's only a few people pushing for its addition...I will confirm (or disconfirm) this later.
ok well here is the link if you want:
http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=1879.0
Hey hey no.
Take it elsewhere, this isn't the place for that type of argument.
I thought it was appropriate (and stylish, and amusing) considering my avatar.
plus magnum is an opinion ninja
Anyway, it's obvious magnum was referring to the game overall as a stinker, because it's not particularly bad for competing as far as X games go, easily better than X5 even. X6 is hardly bad, but I guess it doesn't matter what I think, as the game always seemed less popular, and for admittedly justifiable reasons.
But actually, if we go by genus's method, then it doesn't matter, since only X1-X3 would go up out of the X games, and also maybe X4.
anyway, if we leave games out, people are going to ask to have them put up. I guess what I'm saying is, if we track only good games, how would we decide what's good or not? Or maybe I should not bother asking, as it is presumably all figured out. A committee of three of you will decide for yourselves and the final decisions are indisputable. >_>
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I define stinkers as in bad games. X6 is bad because it has some absolutely horrible level designs, really lame bosses, and was rushed. The level design issue is the worst with such wonderful examples as Rainy Turturoid's room being so badly designed that you can't even use his weakness when playing as X, a jump in Gate stage 2 being impossible for everyone except Shadow X and Zero unless you have specific equipment on, and being able to accidentally stumble into High Max and be completely screwed if you don't have the right weapon. X7 is bad because of clunky controls (compared to other X games and the Zero series with the worst problems being with Zero), really lame bosses (such as the all popular to spoof Tornado Tonion), bad 3D sections (complete with bad camera) and bad balance between characters (Zero is practicaly unplayable in 3D sections compared to the others). The fighters aren't that bad, just horrifically shallow and mindless although the second one is a good improvement.
Yes, I've played both X6 and X7 and can justify my opinions from experience. As much as I would love to track X1-4, they don't track records so I can't. Curse you Maverick Hunter X for not storing records. X5 while not as good as X1-4 is not a bad game at all, merely decent.
The Zero series and Powered Up are just awesome even though I hate the retcon (awful one at that) that happened with Zero 4
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genus's post is exactly what makes me hope TSC will never become democratic.
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Do expand your point so that others either recognize its merit and change how they think of my ideas, or can dismiss you as making no sense; otherwise you saying something like that doesn't serve any purpose, aside from hoping someone thinks you smarter for agreeing with them.
Do not spare my feelings, I want none of that and would like a breakdown of why what I suggested is a bad idea. I consider myself objective...go ahead, sway me.
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Do expand your point so that others either recognize its merit and change how they think of my ideas, or can dismiss you as making no sense; otherwise you saying something like that doesn't serve any purpose, aside from hoping someone thinks you smarter for agreeing with them.
Sorry, the thing is I could barely stand to read the whole thing, did I mention I'm not really into it these days and all? I do try to go back to your post and read more into it, the first time I replied (you can see it in Moron Archive) was a mistake, but now I've been able to read more than a sentence.
What I have now read is that you wanted games to be selectively chosen based on what certain members think of them and their merits. Now if everything on the site worked like that, maybe gems would be banned from Sonic 06 like magnum so wished (by the way magnum, if you seriously think they devoid the game of any of its skill and platforming elements, then I can see how much you even tried). Or more seriously, the game, as fun as it is to compete in, would not be here, because people who aren't me or Da1 or PsyBorg, people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".
Me on the other hand have always said to list any new games. Take your time if you must (eventually I'll have to look into being able to do it all myself for the games I like), but let everyone compete in what they want to. This is The Sonic Center (we've earned the title, by the way) and we don't need other crappier sites to pick up what we don't take because it "sucks".
As long as I'll be here, I'll keep defending normal in-game items. I think I wanted this to be a metaphor. Just like I did with something in Sonic 06, I'll do it for entire games. And letting anyone decide with stupid polls (yeah I'm looking at the s1gba one) can only direct to horrible inconsistencies in how we work and serve the time attacking starving community.
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Sure the purple and sky gems take skill to use (should have looked into them more before passing judgement), but I can't say the same about the red gem. If not for the busted gauge, I'd have no complaints. As it is now, it is very similar to the TBG in terms of effect on competition (those who have experienced the horror of that monster can testify to that). How much skill does it take to simply hold R to get a permanent 1/2 strength TBG (Team Dark) effect? Grrr. My blood pressure's rising from the mere thought of that waste of a DVD (and 60 bucks). I could always cheer myself up by finding unwanted copies of the game, making footage of myself destroying them in some horrible fashion (blow torch, on train tracks, parody of skeet shooting, spinning it on a sanding belt) and putting the video on Youtube. Anyone got any more ideas on how to do it?
Anyway, I believe we have all the rulings we needed to address if we do put Mario and Mega Man games covered. To my knowledge, we would be the only site that would have competition dedicated specifically to those games in the detail we have placed into them (certainly much more than Cyberscore puts into them) with better ways to find cheaters.
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OK, I don't yet have a response to this topic generally, but this specifically demands response. If you are not a person who thinks the series has declined in quality since 3D, please ignore this post, I don't want this thread to get hijacked into yet another sonic quality war.
people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".
For the past five years, the 3D sonic games have steadily declined with each new entry. When a person has played each of the four previous games, personally observed that decline, and then the fifth entry is met with literally universal condemnation by everyone on the planet who is not specifically a huge Sonic fan, it is ludicrous to suggest that connecting the dots and drawing the obvious conclusion is somehow intellectually inferior to putting your faith (in the form of $60) in Sega somehow pulling a rabbit out of the hat and defying the course of history and the obvious implications of their "It's-Only-E3-Keep-Hope-Alive" demo while basically demonstrating that every apparently sane person on the planet in fact has terrible taste in gaming.
Again, if a person is itching to defend the game after reading this post, great, go do it in another topic. All I'm saying is that to insist you need to personally experience everything that comes out of Sonic Team in order to cast judgment is as silly as the people who defend 3% presidential candidates in the final days before a vote thinking that a final bizarre surge in support will suddenly manifest a success out of a sea of failure.
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I agree wholeheartedly that quality in 3d games has steadily declined; even ssr, the "rebirth" of 3d sonic, is significantly worse than sonic adventure 2. I recognize that these games are declining in quality.
I fail to see, however, how tracking these games reduces the quality of TSC in any way, shape, or form. How does tracking s06 make tsc a worse site? It attracted Da1andonlysonic, one of the most talented members of the site. Even if it were to only get existing members to play, it wouldn't hurt the site! It provides an extra facet for competition, no matter how shortlived it is.
Can someone provide a valid reason as to how tracking less popular games actually hurts the site?
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Because for every one decent member they may bring in there are a thousand morons.
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How does a game with 24 competitors, almost all of the good ones from tsc -to begin with-, bring in 1000 more bad competitors than good ones? I see 1 great competitor, DA1, brought in. I see, as a counterpoint, only one new member that's green or better (finalrush7), who clearly is not a moron. All the other new s06 players haven't negatively affected tsc at all (aside s&a, but that's unrelated to the quality of games).
I fail to see how your logic is valid or even applies to games that are "unpopular". Since unpopular, by definition, applies to games that aren't well played on tsc, why would they bring in thousands of morons? I could see your point if it were a well played bad game, but in the case of sonic 06 it just isn't so. It's not well played, and clearly, if nobody plays it on tsc, cannot bring many people to tsc.
Even given the circumstance that unpopular games are a hindrance to TSC, there's clear discrimination against 3d games. Everyone's quick to point out rivals, s06, and ssr as unpopular titles. Unmentioned, however, are the numerous gamegear/32x/ generally unowned games. Only one game hasn't been submitted to in December (Sonic Jam). In fact, it's been over 4 months since it's been submitted to. It has a total of TEN PLAYERS. Does anyone claim that sonic jam is bringing the quality of tsc down? Not that I've seen. Despite being on tsc for a year longer, sonic triple trouble has fewer players than s06. Why is nobody claiming that triple trouble was an error? Chaos? Drift 1/2? Chaotix? SPA? Despite being up significantly longer than s06, these games have around the same amount of players, sometimes even less. What makes these games acceptable but makes shadow/s06/ssr not? The sheer number of these games and unbelievably low number of players for them would suggest they have been far more of a hindrance to tsc's development than the newer 3d games have. Why don't they get the same negative coverage?
Because they are "classics" that defined the childhood of many of tsc's prominent members. They're sega in its PRIME, man!
It's a clear bias against 3d.
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I feel like interjecting at this point to say that for all the talkdowns I give to S06, its soley based on the camera with its mind of its own.
The rest of the game is actually pretty decent, I prefer the levels in S06 over a lot from SA1/2
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I get both sides to this little argument that sprung up and honestly I don't know what to think about the matter. Stefan is right in what he said, although I wouldn't put those 32x/GG/Saturn and other obscure games as "classics" because they fall into the same category as the newer games of today with the same reason as to why no one hardly plays them...they either suck or hardly owned. (sorry to those who liked Chaotix...but damn).
I agree with F-Man that eliminating bad games from the site wouldn't be a good move and now it sounds like we're becoming more elitist with this notion by only going by high standards and if that happened earlier, most of these games (some of which I've competed in) wouldn't exist here. That's not the case though. Now for these "idiots", I haven't seen a trend of folk come here. I have seen good players that "act" like idiots and players who aren't just that great but still act with some decency come here and stay. So just which of these people are we trying to get rid of? Now I don't notice everyone that comes to this place so correct me if I'm wrong. (I don't count the bots that come and post shit and leave)
Thing is, what I've gotten from the discussions that have gone on in chat is that, we cant exist for too long with how the current trend of sonic games come and go. They aren't consistent and either bomb, do well, or mediocre.
-Shadow did ok for its time in the spotlight, but only because it was another 3-D game and people thought it might be great. Some people still think this, but the majority doesn't when played a lot. Competition in that has come to a halt with only 1 person and that took months for that 1 person to come here (that would be OmegaDJ in which I've recruited from youtube and so far hasn't acted like an idiot)
-Sonic Riders was pretty nice as well. I liked it better than Sonic R myself, but I see that in the rankings that "R" has more people? Wtf? I could blame Sonic Gems in that it allowed more people to play some of these obscure titles with the need of multiple old systems. 53 players isn't so bad, but its not great either.
-Sonic the Hedgehog 06...I don't need to say more. The only thing that bothers me is the damn loading times and the glaring glitches and problems that sonic team still cant seem to fix (also the new ones that have been brought forth) or just don't want to...whatever the case. Another thing to me hurt it was that not everyone owns a PS3 or 360. Also its being discontinued...that should say something
-Sonic Secret Rings was (to me) pretty nice, but too many missions hurt it for me. I'm not going to go into its competitive game play (in which I'm talking about the various techniques like sky glitching), but this wasn't a game particularly liked by most due to its on-rails system of play and the controls aren't exactly top notch.
-Sonic Rivals...well I cant say that it sucks completely or not, but not everyone owns a PSP that comes here.
-The Rush series for instance was kickass by everyone who comes across it, but SRA isn't doing that great even though its at 31 players and seems to be even better than Rush so I don't get this at all.
Which brings up another thing to me. Most of these games can be found on Nintendo systems and that's the majority of its users here.
Now from that SRA has more players, but only so few who are new to this place because of it and its still not as high as Rush 1. The fact that these titles are getting more exclusive doesn't help in the matter either.
Now with what Rolken was saying (in which I agree) that because of this, we have to change (genus covered this). Dont know if you've noticed, but of sites like Mr. FixitOnline, SMBElite (which changed to EliteScores), Elite.net, MerqeryCity...probably some more, but these sites used to only cater to 1 series of games and the same from Sonic has happened...they haven't been making good games lately or just stopped and because of that have either died or competition just became really slow and how can a place like this with this many games under its belt just succumb to that kind of treatment. I dont want that to happen as its painful when the site is down, but what's worse...a dead site or a down site? Even with the subsites merging, I have no clue how that would go and right now they aren't doing so well on their own as it is.
Regardless if you find a game that you like, but others don't, you aren't the majority of the members that come and go. We cant just go on by with only the exiting active members playing anything that's new, because even that wont last.
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OK, I don't yet have a response to this topic generally, but this specifically demands response. If you are not a person who thinks the series has declined in quality since 3D, please ignore this post, I don't want this thread to get hijacked into yet another sonic quality war.
people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".
For the past five years, the 3D sonic games have steadily declined with each new entry. When a person has played each of the four previous games, personally observed that decline, and then the fifth entry is met with literally universal condemnation by everyone on the planet who is not specifically a huge Sonic fan, it is ludicrous to suggest that connecting the dots and drawing the obvious conclusion is somehow intellectually inferior to putting your faith (in the form of $60) in Sega somehow pulling a rabbit out of the hat and defying the course of history and the obvious implications of their "It's-Only-E3-Keep-Hope-Alive" demo while basically demonstrating that every apparently sane person on the planet in fact has terrible taste in gaming.
Again, if a person is itching to defend the game after reading this post, great, go do it in another topic. All I'm saying is that to insist you need to personally experience everything that comes out of Sonic Team in order to cast judgment is as silly as the people who defend 3% presidential candidates in the final days before a vote thinking that a final bizarre surge in support will suddenly manifest a success out of a sea of failure.
That's just dumb because Heroes and Shadow were not terrible games, and Shadow was not even strictly worse than Heroes. For fans of the series, there was really no way to know that Sonic06 would follow the trend of decline... because there was none. (to us) Just because we have different views, doesn't make us stupid.
And the analogy doesn't make any sense, because it's quite literally impossibly for a 3% candidate in the final days to turn around and get elected. But the result of one game does not have any real affect on how the next game turns out. In fact, Sonic06 alone proves this, because whereas Shadow and Heroes were perfectly fine games, Sonic06 is vastly more shoddily made and goes against so many things Shadow and Heroes establish about Sonic gameplay. We would have been better off with a next gen Shadow, YOU can't tell me you would have known that the quality and design would take a drop so severely.
Game franchises go from one terrible game to a great game all the time, the more true in franchises that more games in it. (medal of honor vanguard compared to the two MoH released later in this year)
Further I guess yea if you don't value how special Sonic is, you wouldn't spend a precious $60 on it and instead get another game, like uhh GOD knows what. But umm I live and die by Sonic, and if Sonic dies, I am no longer a gamer, so YEA I think I'd buy the new 3D Sonic game. Not everyone is going to leave it on the shelf for the sole point of being an elitist, people want to believe Sonic can work, and they'll get and have fun with it when they can, what's wrong with that.
Because for every one decent member they may bring in there are a thousand morons.
you wish
I hate to reply to this only because others have said it so well already. (Stefan *nods*) But here's my take on it.
The lot of you have had this phrase or something along the lines of it so many times in this topic alone. But in my opinion that's truly what is turning TSC into a failure.
Because we are so shamelessly being elitist jackasses. The very idea of trying to improve and increase the community while unwelcoming and insulting new members just because of what they like is completely ludicrous, or maybe that's just me. It's like a small business opening up and trying to succeed with bad service and asking each patron if they are a dumbass. IMO the attitude towards new members, specifically or in general, is kind of appalling.
No matter what you guys do, you have to drop this attitude and at least act positive. All new members have to be welcomed unanimously. Anything else is turning this into a tight and very small community of angry elitists, and that will never keep this place alive. (or at least we already seem to be unhappy with that) I mean no matter what you do, put up Megaman games or whatever, if we choose to be upstanding elitists, it will still fail... especially if we still pretend to be or in fact remain to be a Sonic site at the core. (or even if we go by genus's idea straight up and have elitist standards on deciding every non-Sonic game we put up)
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Monthly Summary | New Topics | New Posts | New Members | Most Online | Page Views
December 2007 146 1240 22 79 106457
November 2007 76 1230 63 24 86941
October 2007 52 1145 63 44 79609
September 2007 39 660 42 27 85102
August 2007 59 673 76 26 94151
(:
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Monthly Summary New Members | Most Online
December 2007 22 79
November 2007 63 24
October 2007 63 44
September 2007 42 27
August 2007 76 26
lolwut. Less new members and more activity?
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I have some ideas about how we could get TSC popular. Some of these might seem kinda stupid or out of our reach...
1.Get free online games. Everyone would be able to play them. Members would be able to submit their stats on each game to see who is the best in one division. In another division, we could have a seperate competition for guests. And we could have another divisiob containing stats from both divisions to see who is the best overal.
2. We could get Sonic DVD's and make them available to be watched online.
3. Some of the Sonic gurus such as Rolken, Gerbilsoft, etc. could make a Sonic trivia game with various levels.
4. We could have 2Player team tournaments. Members of TSC could join into teams. The pair with the weaker sitewide ranking would get to chose the game and the level, however all members of the match must have the game. Players have an hour or so to submit all the stats they can for that level. Stats would be judged. Team with better stats wins.
5. Another possibility would be to set up a Sonic-competition-season or seasons. They could be fall and spring with the playoffs in winter and summer. Divisions would be set up based on games. Players have a match like the one I described for the 2player team tournaments. Players play against each other players on different levels. Matches will extend for so long. Everyone shoul play the same number of matches. Then their are playoffs for the games and finally the Sonic Bowl.
These are my ideas. They may help TSC or they might be dumb. However I think they all are worth a try.
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It's not a matter of questioning TSC's popularity. That's almost undisputed. Heh.
But srsly, it's a matter of the competitions/games themselves as well as the people running the site as well as the forums themselves that's in question.
Quite frankly, it's not the games that need fixing. But that's just my take on the matter.
If SEGA is "declining", then that is hardly the fault of TSC. But to me, they're still standing and they haven't reached the point of no return.
But either way, I'm not giving up on TSC, as I haven't given up on the franchise or the company as a whole for that matter. TSC's still holding up and that's a good sign. But we have to do better, collaboratively. If you're not willing to accept that, then well, that's your choice but you'd be evidencing your lack of faith in TSC being able to hold up, and as such, the question should be posed: "What are you still doing here, then?"
I'm not going anywhere but at the same time, we all need to work together on this to make the site better.
I've always tried to do my part, despite the criticisms and the other stupidness I won't get into.
Not many people view me in the most positive light but at least I'm trying to help out and change. There are people here who need to change but they're not willing to accept the needed changes for one reason or another. And no, I'm not pointing fingers since all fingers could easily point back at me (in fact, I predict the next post, or at least one of the next 5 posts to be negative or critical - it's THAT predictable <_< - now, though, that I've said it. I'm sure people will intentionally refrain from expressing how they really feel, but it's the principle of the matter).
The site is NOT in jeopardy. It will be, though, if certain people refuse to change their attitude and continue to stay the way they are.
And with that, I thank you for reading this post thoroughly and not ignoring it or quickly replying after the first sentence as most people here do anyway.
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Okay so I felt the need to clarify my position and make a few points.
Funny how mike summarized a lot of my feelings about TSC and how I've noticed it's changes in development recently (for the worse).
Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot.
Ignorance and bashing is also common here and, no, it is not bliss. FAR from it.
Riders 2 competition is the only thing I'm looking forward to here as I'm almost certain noone has the decency or the willingness to make my sub-site go up...
"Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot." Where? Even at the time of your post, nobody has complained about you for months.
As for the sub-site, I'll address that in your topic if you so choose, but again, I don't want to sidetrack this one.
But seriously, ALL THE PROPOSALS we suggested and the ones that are STILL pending SHOULD be added.
This is definitely something that hasn't been handled very well. I could probably put the rest of them up tonight but for concerns about their viability... Rush special stages in particular is problematic.
If we do decide to track more games, we must be selective in what we choose to track. Quality should be a factor here; nobody wants to compete in bad games.
I urge everyone with sanity to ignore genus after this point. I have never expressed the view that we should cull games on the basis of their perceived quality - the only reason that a game (or indeed, a chart within a game) should not be considered for competition regards its competitive value and rules issues (sorry folks, but this is where Shuffle suffers, or at least as far as I've been able to ascertain).
No matter what you guys do, you have to drop this attitude and at least act positive. All new members have to be welcomed unanimously. Anything else is turning this into a tight and very small community of angry elitists, and that will never keep this place alive.
You won't hear me say this to egg too often, but I agree wholeheartedly. This is something I've been saying for a long time but probably haven't acted on enough. I'll have to work on it.
I have some ideas about how we could get TSC popular. Some of these might seem kinda stupid or out of our reach... *etc*
Most of that list is probably outside TSC's scope as a competitive site, or (particularly those tournament ideas you mentioned) are already on our Ideas List. In particular, I don't think trivia fits in well with TSC - but you know, it's always good to have more ideas on the table. I don't want to discourage that.
But srsly, it's a matter of the competitions/games themselves as well as the people running the site as well as the forums themselves that's in question.
Gee, not complaining about much, are you? :P
But we have to do better, collaboratively. If you're not willing to accept that, then well, that's your choice but you'd be evidencing your lack of faith in TSC being able to hold up, and as such, the question should be posed: "What are you still doing here, then?"
There are people here who need to change but they're not willing to accept the needed changes for one reason or another. And no, I'm not pointing fingers since all fingers could easily point back at me (in fact, I predict the next post, or at least one of the next 5 posts to be negative or critical - it's THAT predictable <_< - now, though, that I've said it. I'm sure people will intentionally refrain from expressing how they really feel, but it's the principle of the matter).
While I see where this is coming from, it is my firm belief that everyone in some position of power at TSC has earned it. These people have been not only awesome in the competitive scene, but a real asset to the community too, sometimes helping out with recruitment as well.
And clearly this topic has demonstrated that many people here are quite prepared to say what's really on their mind.
And here's one I've been keeping for last...
What we have here at Sonic Center is a neat idea that created a really great site. A site like that claims attention, and that quality brings a lot of people to here. Among them, interesting guys who want to keep sonic games' competition in a high level. But among them, we will also have those newbies that only want to annoy everyone else. Big and competent sites like this one will always be annoyed by those types, there's no other way, but we can't give up offering a good competition (and everything else) just because of them.
I think this hits the nail on the head. I've now reached the point where I can say that we have little control over who comes into the site, and that we should take it all as it comes. However I still reserve the right to call for a forum ban on someone like egg when deemed necessary. X)
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What's this, someone actually showing second thoughts about my proposals? <_<
Sorry, had to say it. I'd appreciate it if you did, not to mention adding Riders: ZG.
The fact of the matter is, the site is slowly crumbling from the inside...
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AND MIKE IS THE ONE BASHING IT WITH THE HAMMER
AMIRITE CHAPS
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Mike, if you are GENUINELY interested in adding them, PLEASE DO SO.
Also, sub-site would be appreciated since noone seems to care for what I say here.
Also Riders: ZG and Mario/Sonic Olympics (<- if my subsite doesn't get added)...
If you need a reminder of everything, let me know...
But a lot of stuff have been sorted out and there are things that should've gone up from the beginning (case in point: Heroes Special Stages is STILL not up, Riders missions, etc.)
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I've got a topic with everything in it. *search*
NEW GAMES
Sonic Shuffle Not on my watch!
NEW TIMES
Sonic Battle
Sonic Riders (Tag, Survival Race, Survival Battle, Mission modes)
Sonic Drift/Drift 2 fastest laps
NEW SCORES
Sonic Heroes Special Stages
Sonic Heroes - Chaotix Extra missions Falls under the existing Chaotix charts
SPECIAL STAGES
Sonic Rush? Up
Sonic Chaos/Triple Trouble?
MISCELLANEOUS
Sonic 2 GG - Act 3 scores Up
I'm short on time tomorrow but when I get back I'll sort out the Sonic 2 GG scores, Drift fastest laps if I can rearrange the charts properly, and those pesky Special Stages. It looks like Rush will go up. Sonic Heroes I'll need to test some things on first, so don't expect those to go up before the weekend is out.
As for the others, I don't know specifics on Sonic Battle, I'm still getting mixed signals on Riders, and Shuffle... well you know where I stand on that one.
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Forget Shuffle. I've given up.
My last hope was for my sub-site but noone seems to be paying any attention there either..
As for Riders, missions SHOULD still go up. There's a mistake on that. It's ONLY the missions I specified. Nobody would want to compete in Survival Race but me anyway and Tag was removed as was Survival Battle.
As for the others, that'd be GREATLY appreciated, especially Sonic Heroes/SS divisions. How I've longed for those.