The Sonic Center
The Lounge => Gaming and Grazing => Topic started by: General Throatstomper on September 27, 2007, 10:50:40 pm
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Right so let's keep discussing Brawl.
Day 1, I say we all play a *very* small bit of single player/training to get used to some of the game's niches, then face each other for quite a while. We will all suck, and it will be a good time.
Maybe we should even organize a tournament of sorts, starting right after release for maximal comedy value, or a ways after release on the dark side of the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia) for more inclusive proceedings.
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I agree, also whoever wants in go to the wii number thread for numbers.
although if captain falcon isn't availible from the start, I'm unlocking him first before I face anyone.
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Brawl requires ingame friend codes, as shown in the wifi post.
It's not that big an annoyance, as the chances are if you wanted to play Smash with someone, you wouldn't mind entering a 12 digit code once.
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I don't own a Wii
my roommate does though...
I'm in
also, Pichu for brawl!
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I can't wait to face everyone.
I'm not a big fan of fighters but recent updates in the game's progression have turned me around from avoiding the game to giving it a rental.
I'm especially excited over the WarioWare, Rumble Falls and Delfino Island stages and I think I'll start off by getting used to Kirby's and Yoshi's new attacks. I also want to become skilled w/ Diddy.
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You guys want to play with me? I'm always game for a good game of Smash.
Depending on the wifi quality, the farther away people (like England folk) might not be able to play as much. I hate lag...
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Lag wasn't much of an issue for Mario Kart DS online from US to UK, and I doubt it'll be worse than MKDS in terms of lag.
Though for MKDS, lag was less of an issue than it will be for SSBB.
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MKDS had tons of lag. On so many tracks you'd see karts appear out of nowhere and overtake you, or just swerve erratically and mess up your shell tossing.
Anyways, I'm just posting a wager I'm having with Rayku. The first time we go head-to-head, we'll play a best 2/3 set, and the loser has to give the winner an honorary spot in their signature.
I hope my main characters get confirmed though, or at least someone with a comparable playstyle is announced. Granted I'll try other characters anyways, it's always nice to not have to learn everything from the ground up.
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I don't have a lot of competition on MKDS random battles, so I rarely see the lag. However, it seems the worst lag comes from Japanese players with tons of wins.
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also if you play against me....I play to win >_>
I hope everyone plays seriously no matter the match type even if it ends up being silly and chaotic.
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I'm very excited to see if it's as awesome online as Immaterial and Missing Power. :o
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I'll play against people. I suck but I'll get better (I mean not sucky as in has trouble with lvl 5s but sucky as in compared to others). I play with Dr./Mario so no doubt my characters are in :/ Maybe I'll be able to find out this stupid wi-fi problem so I can get on whenever I want.
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I'm all for SSBB tournies. I'll have to play a bit to adjust to the game's physics (which will likely be different from SSBM) and general style of play, as well as find a suitable character. It shouldn't take too long to do all that though.
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! (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/stages/stage13.html)
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"...Her loss."
This update is hilarious. Snake wants to eat Yoshi? Oh, when worlds collide...
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If Sonic is going to be in Brawl, will there be a ranking system for TSC?
Note that I said "if", not when! >.>
I wasen't all that great at this game. Not a big fan of fighting games. The lv 9 destroy me. XD If I do get this game, I might give it a try. Still need to figure out how WiFi works, though.
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Just because Sonic is in the game doesn't mean it's going up on TSC. Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not going to be a Mario-Wario-Yoshi-DK-FZero-Earthbound-AnimalCrossing-MetalGear-KidIcarus-Zelda-Pokemon-FireEmblem-Metroid-Kirby-StarFox-Sonic-IceClimber game just because characters from those franchises are in the game, which means the chances of it going up on TSC are slim to none.
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I was just asking. It's the fact that Sonic could be in it. Just being somewhat ignorant. Sorry about that.
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Plus it's bound to be tracked somewhere else, probably The Elite, and we don't touch rankings if a site of note is supporting a game.
That random guy I've never heard of got in Monday, he could propel Mother 3 into non-Japanese eyes similar to what Marth and Roy in Melee did for Fire Emblem.
I was amused by today's update, though I didn't catch more than the beginning of the fourth movie. Can someone tell me what's so special about Wario's bite?
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Maybe it does continuous damage, like Lip's Stick? I don't know for sure.
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Wario's bite leaves behind a stench of garlic, as he eats cloves of it day and night apparently. The video goes on to say that he attacks by farting.. and he can even fart to fly.
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Ah, right then.
Let's make some outlandish claims about the game and compare them to actualities after release.
Estimated characters: 30
Estimated stages: 40
Estimated game modes: 10 (including break the targets, training, etc.)
Estimated items: 70 (assist trophies and pokemon included)
Top tier (of revealed characters): Pit (his recovery sounds awesome, as does his final smash, and projectiles are always good)
Bottom tier (of revealed characters): Snake (from gameplay videos he looks slow and his attacks, while humorous, are underwhelming)
Characters not returning: Game and Watch, Mewtwo, Falco, Marth, Roy, Pichu, Dr. Mario, Sheik, Young Link
Newcomers (or at least a few): Ridley, (Star Fox character goes here. Slippy Toad?!), Captain Olimar, Wolf Link/Midna, Paper Mario, Mii, billions of others.
Anyone want to bandy anything else around?
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Characters: 34
Stages: not exactly sure. 40 maybe
Tiers: I have a feeling SSBB's physics and balance are much different than SSBM's, so I really can't judge this now.
Characters not returning: If any, Dr. Mario and Pichu.
Newcomers: Hopefully Ridley, and Sonic. Mega Man would be a good 3rd party character too. Sigurd I think is likely, as he was initially going to be in the original SSB. DeDeDe and K Rool I would like to see too. I'm not too sure really, there are just too many possibilities.
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I would like to say several things:
1. SONIC IS GOING TO BE MY MAIN
2. The undeposable king of SSBB lines: "Mei ling, Samus took her clothes off!"
3. Meta Knight will be top tier because he will have good speed, high attack power, sword-based projectile activated by directionless special that will have godlike speed and spamability, etc. He also has a decent though by no means broken final smash in which he either blatantly rips off Link's FS or uses the Halberd to nuke everybody on screen. The only thing that will suck about him is his recovery move and crap throw. (There, now I've joined the tier guessing contest. :D)
4. Characters not from third parties that have a strong likelihood of joining are DeDeDe, Krystal, and some animal crossing character (don't know who but there is a good chance of it)
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I don't see DeDeDe as a probable addition to Brawl. Sakurai doesn't like including characters from Hal games since it feels like he's doing it more for himself than the game.
Krystal probably won't make the cut either, she's not exactly the most popular character in Star Fox fandom. Though to be fair, Star Fox doesn't have much of a fandom and is the universally shirked Nintendo franchise. I'd say StarWolf has a good chance of getting in though.
Animal Crossing characters will probably be included, since it's become something of a popular franchise, ditto Pikmin. Resetti missed the boat on that one (sigh), but Tom Nook and the player character do stand a fair chance.
Think that the dev team will include coop over WFC? I really hope so, but it doesn't seem likely.
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Krystal probably won't make the cut either, she's not exactly the most popular character in Star Fox fandom.
You're clearly new to the internet.
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Think that the dev team will include coop over WFC?
Yes, that's the first thing I thought of when they announced the standard online mode, even though it wasn't announced at the time.
We’re planning a number of services that make use of Wi-Fi, but we’ll reveal them gradually with the other modes.
Being that this is a multiplayer game and being that there's already the standard online option which no doubt is flexible enough to include the special brawl type, what else would they add? It's not like the devs for this game are retarted and are all about adding useless online options like, I don't know, "sticker mode," where you go to an online auction thingy and trade stickers with everyone around the globe, as opposed to adding meaningful online options such as the already-announced online mode. >_>
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Apart from cooperative play and standard smashgames, I don't think there much. Minigames, perhaps. Though he's said otherwise, leaderboards could make it in, or a score/time exchanging system to...exchange...scores and times with your friends. Customizable characters (oh god) are another option, and the coop page does hint that there's a way to power up characters. Whether this is meant solely for Emissary (things like, say, a power increase to a move) or for more general use (adding something of an unwanted RPG element) will be revealed.
I get the feeling there's going to be a huge update soon, one that's going to blow us all away.
On a new note, I have mixed feelings on Subspace having you play as more than one character. It imposes playing as characters that suck...but is good for that reason as well. It makes it so you're a more balanced player overall. You know? I intend to try Intense my first playthrough. When I get my ass kicked, I'm going to Easy.
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Funny, I'm getting the same feeling...
And I don't think it'll be related to Sonic being confirmed.
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Yeah, there really hasn't been any big updates lately, so I'm hoping there is going to be something big soon.
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I don't see sonic being confirmed by sakurai, even if he's in.
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Some of the recent updates for SSBB seem pretty cool, such as the Team mode in the Subspace Emissary part of the game. Playing as two characters in the story mode looks to be interesting.
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wtf happened to the Live Bookmark? It keeps failing to load.
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I don't see sonic being confirmed by sakurai, even if he's in.
i eat my words.
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I eat mine too, it works again.
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Well I wasn't expecting that this morning.
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Sonic the Hedgehog crashes headlong into battle!
In related news, video game forums across the Internet are exploding.
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Who cares about Brawl?
Mario is riding a motorcycle!!!
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26213.html
THEY STOLE MY IDEA and they did such a good job
I love the design for the motorcycle. I would pick it every time!
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From the videos, Sonic looks like he has some crazy juggling potential. And according to some new pictures of the character select screen, he's a starter.
In related news, apparently there's going to be a playable Brawl demo out next week for a tournament in California, so expect hands-on reports soon. The optimist in me says that they'll release this demo over Wiiconnect24, ala Metroid Prime 3. The realist (or pessimist) says there won't be anything widely available until release.
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according to some new pictures of the character select screen, he's a starter.
That's a demo. Sonic is a 3rd-party character, and all 3rd-party characters will need to be unlocked.
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All third party characters need to be unlocked
[Citation Needed]
Anyways, what's the difference between Sonic's side special and down special? I really don't see any.
Oh, and in terms of recovery his Up B looks great, but I'd imagine he's a fast faller. Can someone better able to view videos confirm this?
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well, he's one hell of a floaty fastfaller if so. check out that di.
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I am pretty surprised Sonic is confirmed for SSBB, but then again, I had a feeling he would get in. His moves look great, much better than I had expected. His speed looks pretty good to. I am looking forward to playing with him. This is so cool!
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Some more information is confirmed.
Sonic's neutral special is the homing attack, his Final Smash is Super Transformation (where he can fly around in any direction and deal massive damage to anyone he touches), Diddy's down special lays down a banana, alternate costumes make a return, and you need to deal enough damage to a Smash Ball to get its effects (instead of just grabbing it as previously thought).
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I'm willing to bet a nonsensical post that we'll see Tails as an assist trophy. Not that I intend on backing this up.
You have to wonder how many characters will be in the final version. We're at 21, with more secret characters in reserve. I'm doubting my initial estimate of 25.
Anyone living in California who plays the demo and describes it in detail will win official TSC cool points, to be dispensed by Mike(s).
Another thought that I'm too burnt out to string together. This is one of the few games I've been excited about in a while. Once more, no substance to follow.
What are the most hilarious matchups you can think of? Observations.
Slippy Toad should be in the game. Etc.
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Some more information is confirmed.
Sonic's neutral special is the homing attack, his Final Smash is Super Transformation (where he can fly around in any direction and deal massive damage to anyone he touches), Diddy's down special lays down a banana, alternate costumes make a return, and you need to deal enough damage to a Smash Ball to get its effects (instead of just grabbing it as previously thought).
By "alternate costumes" do you mean colour-swaps (which would make sense given you say "return")? If so, are we going to have a green/purple/red etc. Sonic? Or do you mean actual different costumes, which would open up possibilities for Shadow/maybe Silver as an alt. for Sonic, or Wario's SML3 costume (which would be SO FUCKING AWESOME)?
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Color swaps is what I meant. Though one of Sonic's alt colors could make him look like Shadow. It's not impossible, seeing as how one of Peach's alt colors in Melee made her look like Daisy.
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Any theories on what Sakurai blurred out this update? Personally I've no idea, and am curious to see what everyone else is thinking. Maybe an option to email these pictures? Or set a background somewhere in the game? I'm genuinely stumped.
And I'm still hoping for this demo to somehow make its way onto Wiiconnect24. With any luck, they'll at least give it to stores. I need a fix for my obsession. Savvy?
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Brawl is looking to be great and I just -cannot- wait. As such, partly due to my own drive, partly due to the peer pressure of genus, I'm going to speculate tiers! There's nothing more fun than speculating about a new game, pushing your opinions as fact, and then finding out you were way off. As such, I'll make a tier list of all currently confirmed characters. My tier list will be based entirely off known moves, known characteristics, and ability in melee. Not favorites. Not favorites at all.
If you don't know what a tier list is, it's a list of characters n a given game with multiple character options that ranks them in order of most competitive ability to least competitive ability. Tiers are based entirely on what the most people succeed with. They are a combination of the scarcity of skilled players of that particular character and the potential of that character. For example, Marth and Sheik may be entirely broken, moving hitboxes. Despite this, however, they don't rank as the top two characters simply because, competitvely, fox wins more. Fox has more potential, speed, and shine tactics that allow him to be the best in terms of competitive odds. This doesn't mean he's the only way to go; just that he's the most competitive character, tournament wise..
So, without further delay, the predicted Super Smash Brothers Brawl tier list.
Top
Fox - Fox has crazy speed, overpowered aerials, a ridiculous upsmash, an easily spammable projectile, and, most of all, the shine. Comboing with Fox is fluent. A good fox player will always be attacking you, and there's rarely anything you can do about it. Melee proved that. Assuming nothing, little, or not enough to majorly nerf him occurs, Fox should remain atop the tier list.
Metaknight - Melee proved that being able to quickly combo your opponent is eesential to victory. Fox, Falco, Falcon, Marth, and Sheik all win because they can -quickly- attack, continue attacking, and finish off the kill. All five further demonstrate the effect speed has on gameplay. Metaknight's sword is fast. Really fast. Watch the first trailer, and you can see how quickly that thing moves. Further more, it's a disjointed hitbox (his sword can hurt you if it hits you, but you can't hurt it). He can fly, too. That's going to add a nice feature of survivability to his speed and combo potential. Watch out.
High
Zero Suit Samus - Zamus seems to be a replacement Sheik. Really. Transformation character, skinnyish build, female, heavy martial combat, occasional projectile, the plasma whip. She seems like a fast character heavily oriented towards close combat. She seems to have a very decent recovery from close, as well. I'm not sure what she'll do if she's far away.. can her up b function without a wall to grab? If so, her recovery will most likely be way up there. I just seem to see her as very Sheik like, only with a little more options from far away, and a little less ninjaesque amazingness. EDIT: Watching gameplay vids, she seems -better- than Sheik. Look at some of the playable demo vids, and you can see how ridiculous her range is. That whip is win. pure win.
Peach - From the brokenness of the downsmash to the amazing projectile that turnips were, Peach proved to be a -unique-, capable character. Peach was the only top 5 tier in melee to not be oriented towards a fast, quick strike gameplay. She was a damage racking up, turnip abusing, downsmash raping, godly recovering, prioritized arialling, floating menace. And seeing as her turnips, the best projectile int he game, return to her, she surely hasn't taken any steps in brawl to get worse. <3 Peach.
Ike - I see a heavy Marth. Less speed, more power. Probably worse than Marth if Marth returns. No real comments besides that.
Samus - Samus seems like she should be higher, doesn't she? Impossible to knock off the stage, unbelievable recovery (bombs, grapple, up b, jump), great projectiles (I'm talking to you missles), pretty powerful moves, and some nice, laid back aerials. Unfortunately, when it comes to close combat, Samus is -really- lacking. Her aerials can't/couldn't reliably be shffled, her tilts are less than amazing, and her smashes are way too long to charge.
Middle
Sonic - Well, Sonic looks really awesome. To play as, at the least. Whether or not he's great is a different question. In terms of known moves, he seems -heavily- oriented towards the spindash. This could mean plenty of things. On one side, he can easily attack from far away; on the other, however, he may lack the close combat you need to do well in smash. We don't really know aerials or tilts at all, though,so it's not really fair to judge. One thing I -can- judge is the apparently immortal recovery Sonic possesses. First off, his DI. It's ridiculous. I can't stop commenting on it. Watch the official video. He moves horizontally with such speed/ease that his air game may be like Jigglypuff's (which, if you didn't know, is almost impossible to play against). He also as a good midair spindash for horizontal distance, and huge vertical distance on that spring. Whether or not you can survive if the spindash doesn't make it or if the spring stops horizontal movement is unknown, but sonic's recovery's looking great. I can't wait to see him in good action. That down air is also unbelievable looking. What we've seen is just intense. But maybe Sakurai just wanted it that way.
Pit - Since Sakurai touted the new aerial combat emphasis, it seems very likely that a character with (appearing) multiple jumps would have an advantage. Surely having a sword would also give you an advantage. I'm kind of torn on Pit.. I want to know his smashes. What could he do? Would he be an air only character? This tier position really goes off nothing more than the fact than he has wings and a sword.
Mario - He's balanced. It's Mario. He can use aerials, has a projectile, decent recovery, all sorts of stuff. It's Mario.
Link - It's Link. Link wasn't so great in Melee.. he was slow, heavy, and had few killing options. I'm certain Sakurai wants to resurrect the second greatest nintendo star from a lifetime of doom in Smash. He's already got a new boomerang, and he may be affected by the new "heavy invincibility" rule. That's definitely enough to bring him back to a decent level.
Ice Climbers - The first significant drop. The main reason for this is because I'm goign off the idea that the wavedash is abolished. There's no reason to believe this is true or not true, so I've just predicted wavedash will be gone. I'm not really sold either way, but eh. Anyway, the Ice Climbers are slow. Their smashes, tilts and grabs are amazing. So ground movement=poor, ground attacking=great. If you are a ground char, you need ground movement. Without wavedash, ICs are screwed. You can see this in any good IC video.
Snake - Yeah, it might be a shock to see him this low. He just looks -slow- to me. His attacks don't seem to come off quickly. This may be a poor conclusion off small amounts of video, but it's the one I made. One thing that really interests me about Snake is that strangle move. I really want to see that in action. Does it stun for a long time? Is it hard to pull off? Is it broken? Can it be broken? If that can consistently be done and well, Snake may quickly rise to top tier. He's kind of a difficult char to pin for me, since he's so different. Weapon oriented, stealth oriented, etc. Can't wait to play as him.
Low
Donkey Kong - He's probably the best heavy character if Ike ends up fluking out majorly (which is definitely a high possibility). He's pretty quick, has some very good moves, and can own in the right hands. He is another character, like Mario, that really doesn't excel in anything, but isn't horrible, either.
Pikachu - Pikachu is an example of a character with speed that doesn't do too well. Pika is very strong for a little rat, very quick, and has awesome recovery. Migh major concern with the guy is his lack of range and consistent ko attacks. His smashes are probably the best combined smashes in the game, but he can't use them often because they require he's close, where he gets beat down. Pika is a nice character though. I wish he was better.
Yoshi - Yoshi had one major flaw in melee: his up b gave him no distance. Now that it does in Brawl, Yoshi's double jump cancelling, smashes, yumalicious eggs, and just overall comboability should make him a decent character, but nothing special.
Diddy Kong - "Unfortunately, screenshots fail to truly capture the way he moves."
That line confuses me. Is he quick? Is he.. low to the ground? I want to know, man! Anyway, I see Diddy as a very quick, pikachu esque character. He's about the same size, probably quick, and probably as similar tilts and the like. His up b looks really crappy, in my opinion. If you can't reliably actually make it back, you may as well never try. :( Peanuts also seem like they would probably be less beneficial than a traditional projectile because of explosions and edible peanuts. I can't wait til someone perfects the kamikaze popgun explosion, though. x)
Bottom
Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like ivysaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three "get used", I see PT's usability severely hampered.
Zelda - She is just Zelda. Slow and unable to deal large amounts of damage, Zelda is limited to the number of toes you get in. I really hope Sakurai makes her better, but I don't see it happening. :(
Bowser - Two lines convince me Bowser shouldn't be at the bottom like in melee. The first is, "The biggest and the heaviest of fighters, Bowser has a slightly different flavor this time around!". The second, "This time, there are several moves like this among the heavy characters, so watch out!", refers to invincibility midmove. The first seems to suggest Sakurai realizes Bowser really sucked, and wants to make such a "powerful" character better. I don't see his efforts going so far considering Bowser's slow, but it's worth a try. The second line makes me smile at the fact that it's nearly a guarantee Bowser won't be unable to fight because little, puny attacks keep flinching him midmove. If he can continue attacks now, he'll at least be on a somewhat even playing field with little tiny pikachu headbutts.
Lucas - Ness sucked. He wasn't powerful, had a crap recovery, slow moves that stunned him, poor projectiles, a horrible air game, and really crappy smashes. Lucas=Ness, effectively. Lucas, therefore, should suck. Sorry man. I'm hoping I'm wrong.
Kirby - Specials are really bad, throws don't do much, he's laggy, aerials have poor range+knockback, recovery -really- sucks for a character with multiple jumps. Sakurai went way too far in nerfing him from SSB, and I haven't seen evidence of change. Again, I'm hoping, considering the Kirby games are like the third most amazing platform series ever, that Kirby gets his act together.
Wario - He is fat, therefore likely heavy with a poor jump. His two moves revealed so far are the bike and the wario waft. The problem with the bike is
a.) it seems to be of no attacking use and
b.) if it is of attacking use, the opponent can use it too. It's like giving Marth's sword the ability to be knocked out of his hand so anyone can use it. It's pointless. Who cares if you can do a 180 turn on a bike? I want a practical move! The wario waft's major problem is you need to charge it. The imminent flaw in this is, if you're using it, as intended, for recovery, you can't get very far because you need to charge to get any vertical distance. By then, it's probably too late. Second, there's still no real attack purpose for this. What are you going to do? hope someone walks over you so you can crash into them? hope someone stands around so you can blast them? It has no practical attack usage either. And based on the other Wario moves we've seen, he seems to be a poor character. It's a shame, because he's Wario, man. Oh well. Bottom of bottom tier isn't so bad.
So yeah. That's my tier list prediction. it's probably way, way off. It doesn't account for likely characters or characters I'd really like to get in, such as Megaman, Ridley, Krystal, Falco, Olimar, Dedede, Nook, Stafy, Little Mac, Balloon Fighter, Cel-Shaded Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Luigi, Marth, Game and Watch, Ness, or Isaac. But it's decent, right? Feel free to pick it apart, because intelligent, critical speculation is fun. Yeah.
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Yadda yadda yadda
I'm kind of torn on Pit.. I want to know his smashes. What could he do? Would he be an air only character? This tier position really goes off nothing more than the fact than he has wings and a sword.
I'm pretty sure the bow is a pair of blades.
Yadda yadda yadda
Ice Climbers - The first significant drop. The main reason for this is because I'm goign off the idea that the wavedash is abolished. There's no reason to believe this is true or not true, so I've just predicted wavedash will be gone. I'm not really sold either way, but eh. Anyway, the Ice Climbers are slow. Their smashes, tilts and grabs are amazing. So ground movement=poor, ground attacking=great. If you are a ground char, you need ground movement. Without wavedash, ICs are screwed. You can see this in any good IC video.
I could have sworn I heard something about actually working with wavedashing on this game. But that was some time ago, so don't quote me on that.
Yoshi - Yoshi had one major flaw in melee: his up b gave him no distance. Now that it does in melee...
I'm sure you can figure this one out.
Diddy Kong - "Unfortunately, screenshots fail to truly capture the way he moves."
That line confuses me. Is he quick? Is he.. low to the ground? I want to know, man!
I assumed it meant erratic movements. Like Wario, but less crazy.
Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like bulbasaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three get used, I see PT's usability severely hampered.
Ivysaur
Lucas - Ness sucked. He wasn't powerful, had a crap recovery, slow moves that stunned him, poor projectiles, a horrible air game, and really crappy smashes. Lucas=Ness, effectively. Lucas, therefore, should suck. Sorry man. I'm hoping I'm wrong.
I don't think Lucas used yoyos in Mother 3. Then again, I'm going off what I heard. Either way, I wouldn't compare them yet. Then again, I wouldn't assume a lot of stuff.
Wario - He is fat, therefore likely heavy with a poor jump. His two moves revealed so far are the bike and the wario waft. The problem with the bike is
a.) it seems to be of no attacking use and
b.) if it is of attacking use, the opponent can use it too. It's like giving Marth's sword the ability to be knocked out of his hand so anyone can use it. It's pointless. Who cares if you can do a 180 turn on a bike? I want a practical move! The wario waft's major problem is you need to charge it. The imminent flaw in this is, if you're using it, as intended, for recovery, you can't get very far because you need to charge to get any vertical distance. By then, it's probably too late. Second, there's still no real attack purpose for this. What are you going to do? hope someone walks over you so you can crash into them? hope someone stands around so you can blast them? It has no practical attack usage either. And based on the other Wario moves we've seen, he seems to be a poor character. It's a shame, because he's Wario, man. Oh well. Bottom of bottom tier isn't so bad.
I was under the impression that the charge was time based, not hold based or samus/DK equivelant. You know, after you use it, you just have to pass the time not using it, even when attacking.
Epilogue and long list, A.K.A. yadda yadda yadda
NO at Cel-shaded Link. I think Little Mac was found as an AT by one of the demoplayers. You deserve points for Isaac (I've been stating this one for a bit). And finally, Ganondorf MUST have his ENERGY PING PONG BALL ATTACK! It'd be more of a one-on-one thing, unless someone gets caught in the crossfire or something. If only that were true...
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Pokemon Trainer - Though it seems like a fetching concept at the start, I can't see many, if any practical uses for pokemon switching. Unlike in pokemon, there's no real tactical advantage in changing pokemon because you're fighting the -same opponent-. In which case it may become more of a "play one character primarily, and switch when that one's about to die". The mobility of a pokemon like ivysaur must be limited, while squirtle probably isn't captain power himself, while I doubt Charizard's all so great in everything, either. Since every pokemon will likely have a flaw so all three get used, I see PT's usability severely hampered.
Hello, stamina. Seems you overlooked that detail.
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Ok yeah, so Ivysaur* and Brawl* and various other mistypes.
Re-reading about wario waft, it seems like a you can use it, but then, if you don't wait long enough, it won't charge back up. So I was wrong on that part, yes. However, Wario waft still seems to have little use because, if he gets edgeguarded, he can't make it back up. That little poot won't be enough.
One thing of Wario's I haven't accounted for seems to be his up-b. If his up B gives distance, Wario may have an unbelievable recovery (bike in the air for horizontal, hold in your down-b, and use your up-b). My judgement of Wario may be way off. I'm not going to change it, though, because my judgements of everyone seem to be way off.
Hello, stamina. Seems you overlooked that detail.
That's just what i mean though. It's just some arbitrary rule forcing you to change pokemon for success. I'm still sure that each poikemon will have an obvious disadvantage, so you need to arbitrarily switch after x time so you can go to a pokemon with a different disadvantage. It just doesn't seem like there's a practical reason to switch, aside from stamina, which seems just like a gimmick to discourage you from playing Charizard the whole time or something.
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I have tons of things to pick apart in Stefan's predicted tier, but instead I'll post my own and the differences alone will provide justification.
Top
Meta Knight-The dude has moves. His sword attacks are quick, and therefore easy to string together. Add to that a decent sized disjointed hitbox, and you're talking about Marth with combo potential. Of course there's more. Multijumps mean he can probably pull one crazy aerial game. Couple this with his down B (confirmed to be a move in which he drops down very, very quickly and strikes with his sword), and you're talking about mind games layered on mind games. Those jumps, in conjunction with flying, will do wonders for Meta's survivability. He looks respectably fast as well; Metaknight could very well be the next Smash menace.
Sonic-And here's a shocker. I'm placing Sonic very high on this tier list, and I feel it's justified. He has absurd speed, which means he's all over needling opponents. Smash has always been about faking your opponent out, and speed's a great asset for that. If you don't believe me, watch a few Captain Falcon videos from Melee. Sonic also has some specials that look like they're toking on combo potential and insanity. I imagine something like Sidespecial>Jump>(aerial, second jump, sidespecial, neutralspecial)>(aerial, second jump, sidespecial, neutralspecial), etc. Juggling potential abounds. Sonic looks unpredictable, and for mindgame potential alone he deserves a spot this high. He also has beastly recovery, which certainly doesn't hurt his case.
Upper
Fox-Yeah, this low. Shocker of the century, right? I get the feeling he'll be nerfed. Fox is still going to flourish I'm sure, but I think there will be a changing of the guard. If the wavedash is taken out, Fox's usability takes a hit because his usual waveshine shenanigans won't work. Ditto foxtrot. For good measure place him several spots lower in that case. He'll still be getting in your face and making you uncomfortable with a brutal aerial/ground/smashgame without those, but he's not going to be nearly so devastating as in Melee without two of his most important features. Even assuming he keeps these, I still think other fighters will top him, if only because they look so much more powerful.
Zero Suit Samus-She's Sheik with good recovery, and therefore awesome. As though you need any description of how Sheik operates. She'll hit you with a tilt, and because her tilts have such low knockback and a good hitbox, she'll hit you with another at her leisure. Eventually she'll get bored, in which case segway to either a downsmash or an aerial, generally the fair for its high knockback, but maybe the nair for better range. It works. If Zero Suit has good aerials she's going to be dynamite, but even without them she'll still be highly playable. Her side B means she could be Sheik, but with a ground based ko move. She does get a move that stuns her opponent as well, which I'm betting helps her tons for edgeguarding. It figures they'd give a woman character a taser.
Pit-Pit is an interesting character who will either be rockstar or really shitty. He can jump multiple times in the air, and fly as well. His recovery move lets him fly throughout the stage for several seconds at will. It will be amazing if he can use aerials while flying. This just screams "best aerial fighter ever"...but you have to wonder what his range is. Pit doesn't look like he has very good range from the videos I've seen, and he certainly isn't the studliest of characters. He's going to need to rely on floating around, eventually knocking his opponent off the stage and then pursuing them freely, to be followed by aerial punishment. But of course he has to come down eventually, and deal with what seems like a lacking ground game. There are also those wicked arrows he has, which you're supposedly able to control. If control is precise, they could be a vice for edgeguarding when you're not able to track someone in midair, but otherwhise they're useless. There are too many variables with Pit, but I'm placing him high because of potential alone.
Peach-Putting Peach below Pit was something I really had to think about. Peach more or less stayed the same from Melee, where she wrought havoc and really didn't have any counters. But I'm thinking that Pit will be able to gurantee a ko after knocking someone off the level, and while turnips are the next best thing it isn't quite the same. I'm also banking on her downsmash, bair, and upsmash getting nuked, which will hurt Peach overall. I still think she'll be an upper echelon fighter though, because turnips alone are enough to throw off most players.
Samus-Samus was the best longrange fighter in Melee, and Prime 3 is awesome, so of course she's up here. Her potent projectiles are back, along with her godly recovery (dwarfed by Pit but still impressive). But she has no defense when a fighter gets up close, aside from a fluke bomb combo or two that you're better off not risking. The big question is whether the superwavedash returns. For the uninitiated, in Melee if Samus uses her downb and tilts left and right twice, she'll rocket a fair distance at impressive speed. This was her bread and butter, and what made her playable. If you played Samus and didn't swd, you lost. If this doesn't return for Brawl, Samus will be in a boatload of trouble, as she has no way of escaping in-your-face fighters like Fox. For good measure, knock her down a tier if she loses the swd.
Middle
Mario-It may be surprising that I put Mario so high, but I think fludd will give Mario a reliable way of edgeguarding that doesn't involve a kamikaze fair. Mario's never had much trouble tossing opponents off the level (his back throw in particular was rather effective for this sort of thing), but it's not as though he could do anything to them afterwards. Fludd gives Mario a projectile with knockback, which he's always really wanted. If fludd has decent damage-based knockback it may even offer him a reliable power move, but I'm not counting on it.
Yoshi-Another move that you probably didn't expect. Yoshi has some potential now that he gets a real recovery move. Being able to increase his jump height is good because it effectively adds 7 things for the player to do, which his opponent must predict. Either Yoshi can highjump, shffl, eggjump to highjump, eggjump to shffl, eggjump to eggjump, eggjump to shffl to high jump, or eggjump to highjump to eggjump to shffl. These are some serious mindgames. His attacks in Melee sucked, but I think with the eggjump Yoshi will be able to pull off a fearsome aerial game. I fear a combo of million kicks>eggjump>million kicks.
Wario-I've been called a sucker for thinking Wario will be good, but hey. We've all been in matches that went nowhere, where your opponent is able to stall you out and neither of you wants to make an agressive move for fear of getting combo'd. Now imagine that during all that time, you're building up a supercharged, instadie attack. Surely this idea tickles your fancy. If Wario has any semblance of a defensive game, he's going to pull off crazy ko's with the waft. While Otacon's mentioned in a video that Wario farts to fly, we don't know that this takes away from the reserve going towards the waft. If it does, and I'm betting it doesn't, then sure, bottom tier.
Pikachu-Pikachu's lack of range has always been disheartening, and that's not getting fixed. Pikachu has good throws, high speed, ok aerials, and the best smashes in the game, but it all means nothing because he has to get in close to pull things off. Distance fighters walk all over Pikachu, and close fighters trounce him. He'll remain comfortably nestled smack in the middle of the tier.
Ike-Everyone else has a hardon for Ike, but I'm not so keen on a heavier Marth. Roy was a heavier Marth. We don't know that Ike will have tippers, which defined Marth. He seems slow, which is also bad, and as such I'm not thinking he's going to do very well in Brawl. Still, he does seem better than what's left in the slush pile.
Ice Climbers-Ice Climbers I see getting nerfed, bigtime. They're all over the ground game, but of course they are slow so needed wavedash. If the wavedash doesn't come back in Brawl, they'll have nothing and probably be bottom tier, but I'll be consistant with this tier as I'm assuming it returns with Fox. So anyways, Ice Climber ground game is very annoying, especially against close fighters since the ai always has a tendency to disrupt combos. One of their biggest selling points was the crazy chain throws they could pull off, but you know those aren't coming back. I don't really expect much from the climbers, but this low in the tiers there really isn't much that's good.
Low
Kirby-Unfortunately, Kirby is more or less carbon copy from Melee, where he sucked hard for want of priority, speed, good aerials, tilts, smashes, specials, and just about everything else. Kirby doesn't have many redeeming traits, but it's not as though he's unplayable.
Diddy Kong-He's fast, which counts for something. He seems like another puny fighter with bad range and poor recovery, but there are worse guys you could be.
Link-There's nothing special about Link. It looks like he's unchanged from Melee, where he wasn't exactly the most stolid of fighters. Slowness, lack of recovery, awful aerials, and useless tilts make Link a dull, dull boy.
Donkey Kong-Another lackluster fighter. He's a powerhouse sure, but he's too big and bulky. Which wouldn't be an issue if he had any sort of range, but he doesn't so it is. Donkey Kong needs to get close to do anything, at which point he probably just walked into a combo. Donkey Kong Country sucked too.
Botom
Snake-He seems like a gimmick to me. Snake looks slow, with moves that take ages to use. If your smash attack is to dig a hole and plant a landmine, then you're not a very good character.
Bowser-There are so many powerhouses with no range. Do I even need to bother explaining that Bowser gets pummeled when he tries to do anything against an opponent?
Zelda-Slow? Powerful but impossible to land attacks? Poor recovery? Brown hair instead of blonde? Bottom tier.
Pokemon Trainer-I like the idea of pokemon trainer, I really do. I look forward to playing a character with such an interesting concept. That said, pokemon trainer isn't functional. Stamina makes you even more susceptible to hit-and-run characters. I shudder when I think of what Fox could do against Pokemon Trainer using his laser alone. The pokemon don't look like they're very good either. Squirtle is the generic fast but weak character, Charizard is the token muscleman with no recovery that takes a pounding, and Ivysaur doesn't look like it can do much. Let's not even get into detailed analysis of how you have to learn three characters, and will always have a crippling weakness at a given moment.
Tier list finally finished. I didn't bother ranking Lucas, as we know nothing about him. Thoughts?
Edit: forgot about Low tier, my bottom did feel a bit large...
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Don't see the point in all this tier stuff but, if people want to know which characters are best for comp, who am I to judge if it's dumb or not. Looking forward to playing the game and I might do so if I go to the LA Convention Center. :O
ps.
Botom
*Bottom
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Looking forward to playing the game and I might do so if I go to the LA Convention Center. :O
You have money to pay for a pass!?!?? Curse you!
If you do, don't rub it in.
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Yoshi-Another move that you probably didn't expect. Yoshi has some potential now that he gets a real recovery move. Being able to increase his jump height is good because it effectively adds 7 things for the player to do, which his opponent must predict. Either Yoshi can highjump, shffl, eggjump to highjump, eggjump to shffl, eggjump to eggjump, eggjump to shffl to high jump, or eggjump to highjump to eggjump to shffl. These are some serious mindgames. His attacks in Melee sucked, but I think with the eggjump Yoshi will be able to pull off a fearsome aerial game. I fear a combo of million kicks>eggjump>million kicks.
This logic is so fail. It's effectively like saying Fox's Firefox, Peach's Parasol, Pikachu's Thunder Shock (it's thudnershock right?) and all other characters' up bs provide for mindgame potential. They don't. What makes Yoshi's different?
Snake-He seems like a gimmick to me. Snake looks slow, with moves that take ages to use. If your smash attack is to dig a hole and plant a landmine, then you're not a very good character.
Ok. Yes, Snakes a gimmick. Yes, he looks slow with slow moves. However
A.) If having an attack that takes a while makes you a not good character, let's put Captain Falcon, Samus, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Peach, Sheik and plenty of others bottom tier. Aka, that's not anything.
B.) Isn't snake's downsmash that rocket launcher one that looks a lot like Samus's? You know, the one where he kneels and fire diagonally into the ground, alot like Samus's smash?
C.) the move isn't inherently useless.. Why can't you use the move when your opponent dies, like Sheik's needles, Peach's turnips, DK's giga punch, or Samus's Charge shot? Why are you unable to plant mines mid stock?
D.) Digging a hole doesn't have to be as time consuming as you make it sound (peach's turnips, dk's side-b)
So yeah. I think you're offbase with Snake. And a few others. But snake is a big one.
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We went over this in chat, but I went with the assumption Yoshi gets 1 egg throw per jump. The Snake thing was a joke, but his attacks look too slow to be practical.
Next Monday, Isai's going to enter the tournament with the demo, so we should know more about new and returning techniques. What was the prize for winning again?
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Attempting to predict tiers is fundamentally dumb.
They are defined by tournament play. Which, as previously said, is dependant on tournament players' preference, the characters' users' skill levels, in addition to the character's actual playability, advantages and disadvantages.
Sure, these educated guesses make some sense. But there's no use in labelling it as tier predictions, because the tiers are set by the tournament players. If every tournament player chooses to use Snake 100% of the time (highly unlikely scenario), that would by default make Snake top tier and everyone else bottom tier.
Some responses all the same though, while I wait for my laundry...
Fox
Placed 'Top' by Stefan on the condition that he doesn't get 'nerfed'.
Erm... So you are expecting the developers to just not do their job?
The ideal fighting game has one single tier. That is to say it is balanced. Although, considering what I said before about what tiers are determined by, the existance of tiers doesn't necessarily prove character imbalance (if only bad players use a character, they fall down the tier list), though they do support it.
The developers will have been all to aware of any under-/over-powered characters, and will attempt to balance them in one way or another. I would place money on that.
Pokémon Trainer
Changing Pokémon would be pointless? So, you'd say the same about Zelda/Sheik right? Considering it's the same concept, just with three forms and not one.
Moreover, you're on the money with each having different disadvantages (and advantages, though that you didn't mention), but these aren't just arbitrary. Different adv/disadvs will suit different scenarios. Charizard will probably have gliding ability. Ivysaur, on the other hand, will probably be able to recover by tether (or whatever the buzzword is). Squirtle... er... is small? *shrug*
Erm... any other response I was going to make was probably again based on the fact that they will strive for more balance. There's no way they can possibly leave unbalanced characters as they were... the game must be re-balanced, even if it had been balanced before, simply because of the addition of new characters.
And also, basing characters' future performance on performance in SSB(M) has a slight flaw in that the gameplay is changing moreso than before. Final Smashes, different items, home-turf advantages (I think? did I make that up?), yadda yadda yadda, will change everything. Like it or not.
Anyway, carry on.
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Attempting to predict tiers is -dumb-, yes, but it's also extremely fun. I know there's no basis for this, that it has no real applications, and that it's pointless because we know nothing, but that doesn't keep me from doing it. I enjoy speculating, so this is fair enough.
As such, you pretty much have to go on the basis of what you know. For anyone that's in melee, you know about melee. For those who weren't, you know a couple moves. I know that producers strive to balance the game and create a single tier. In order to make a tier list, however, I have to go off what I know about these characters. And since there's no clue that fox, or many other characters -have- changed, I have to rank them the same. The problem you describe here is a fundamental problem of speculation in general, but I'm going to speculate regardless of the problems it brings.
"But there's no use in labelling it as tier predictions"
Er? I'm predicting the level at which these characters will be used in tournament play. I find pikachu to be a decent character, but he's low in the tiers because he's not used in melee much. I don't see how I can't describe these as tier predictions, because that's exactly what I'm doing.
About Fox, back to the idea of going only off what I know. It's highly likely Fox's shine and speed and other moves will be weakened, but without confirmation, placing him at the top with the knowledge I have is a better choice than putting him midtier just because I expect him to be weakened to a degree of middle tier.
About Pokemon Trainer, you pretty much proved my point. Zelda/Sheik are two -seperate- characters. This is well documented in tournament play. You try to bring up Zelda/Sheik as an example of two characters being switched strategically, but, in tournament play, only Sheik is ever really used. In Sheik "playing tutorials", the move down-b is described as "Losing the match". You don't use both Zelda and Sheik! You use -Sheik- alone. Even the rare Zelda player is loyal to using only Zelda. Changing characters effectively is pointless. Pokemon trainer may be the same way. The problem, though, is that having three characters that are designed to be played as one means that certain characters will have different strengths (happy?? :P) and weaknesses. Following in Zelda/Sheik's footsteps, this means that only the pokemon that shows itself as the best will really be played. But since all the pokemon have arbitrary weaknesses to get you to switch, that single pokemon will be severely hampered. I'm just fairly sure that the 3-pokemon-switch idea will rarely work out strategically.
And yeah, everything will be changed. I like it. I like Brawl because of it. The main reason I'm speculating here is so I can look back in a year and say "oh man, I was way off there" or "dude, I hit the nail on the head with that one". I don't expect this to be taken seriously at all (well, maybe a little)
Anyway, thanks for your commentary. x)
On an entirely seperate note, Little Mac confirmed to be an assist trophy. My hopes and dreams are shattered, man.
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CF, wtf ARE you talking about?
PLAYERS have NOTHING TO DO with TIERS.
Read Platinum Kirby's statements about what tiers are before you go babbling again, if you'd be so kind
Anyway, based on what has been done and what is being done, notable changes between SSB/SSBM and SSBB are going to be noted, and then a rough guess at Tiers
Z/L cancel - Still there, still nerfed like in SSBM. Very few people REALLY complained about this, and it seems to have good balance. My personal opinion is either A) it should be removed and the lag should just be dropped alot, or B) it should go back to how it stood in SSB (no-lag after grounding an aerial attack), but both of those are bad for most major audiences, and it makes a HUGE difference for some characters, so it'll make some newbs easier to beat.
WDing - My personal guess here is based upon what happened to the air-battle-modifying glitching from SSB to SSBM. WD, in my guess, will be PUT in instead of being an inherantly abused oversite. in SSB, ZCing or not ZCing (not Purin players) turned the game upside down, and lacking even that by itself means you SUCK at the game in tourny and serious play. In SSBM, it was WDing, So I think it'll get the same treatment when you go to the next game... IE, rather than being a glitch, it'll be put in as a mechanic that will be nerfed from the original use that it garnered in it's original setting
Based on this, it'll be a LOT of initial-build air game. My only thoughts here are that the DHBers of the game will be MUCH slower in movement to balance...
the only massive bummer, thus-far for me, is that shield-stun isn't coming back, and niether is hit-stun, DI is supposedly left able-to-be-abused, and thus there will be NO COMBOS, just like SSBM.
Which means that there's no strategy, just like SSBM
And I look forward to owning people online, unlike SSBM, but much like SSB!
BRING IT ON!
people I don't note aren't thought on, btw....
Sonic
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Renku
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Mario
Purin
Fox
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Snake
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Bowser
just guessing with fair reason, again being based on the changes from SSB to SSBM, mostly...
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Renku
You mean LINK??
Stop being a fucking weeaboo. D:
On a more serious note, this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsvIkex05yQ) shows Sonic using an air attack (specifically, the downward kick) after bouncing off a spring...so does this mean he doesn't pratfall after using it, or does this apply to all characters' Up specials?
Also I wish Sonic had won because I want to know what his fanfare is. If it's Live and Learn as the first video suggested I'll be mildly upset.
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Also I wish Sonic had won because I want to know what his fanfare is. If it's Live and Learn as the first video suggested I'll be mildly upset.
I think it might be the Act Cleared fanfare from one of the Genesis games.
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Nah. Green Hill FTW! No but seriously, on that note, think ther'll be a GHZ stage for Sonic (and his buddies that are OBVIOUSLY getting in - i.e, Knuckles, maybe Tails and Shadow)?
Also, I should state upfront I'm getting Brawl for $30. Nuff said. :D
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His 'buddies' aren't getting in. Sakurai isn't double dipping for third party characters. Even if he were, why would he include Shadow of all shitheads? Seriously.
Anyways, I fear the 'Ultimate Chimera', and seem to recall seeing it chase someone in an adventure picture. I'll find the link in a minute. 'New Pork City' might be a terrible pun, but as a stage it does look interesting.
Edit: not quite the Ultimate Chimera, but it looks similar. Go here (http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/modea/images/modea02/modea02_070803b-l.jpg) to see what I mean.
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3 3rd party characters at max are in, says Sakurai. Sonic and Snake are in says Sakurai.
Why would Knuckles, Tails, and Shadow go in when there's 1 spot left for someone deserving from an UNREPRESENTED SERIES? Bomberman? Megaman? Geno? Even Pac-Man? Why would it be another sonic character?
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Shit, Pac-man isn't actually that unlikely, given that Mario Kart Arcade GP has him, among other Namco characters.
I wouldn't mind if Tails got in, personally, but yeah, he won't. That alone would give too much weight to the Sonic franchise in a game that's primarily about Nintendo, never mind the fact that if you have Tails you've kind of got to have Knuckles, too.
Maybe if more 3rd party characters are in the sequel it could happen, but that's so theoretical it's barely worth saying out loud.
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Coop homerun contest is going to be insane. Yoshi/Yoshi, Fox/Fox, or Fox/Yoshi teams all want to ravage hrc. I wonder how the records will be saved, though. At even the present playable characters, we're talking about 441 combinations. Which is intense. Think they'll just do an ingame leaderboard of best hrc's for teams, leaving the character scores to single player attempts only?
And on that note, you have to wonder what's happening to the Smash franchise after Brawl. Sakurai's going all out on this game, and you know he's not coming back for another. Think Nintendo will let the series end on (what looks to be) a high note, or attempt to transcend their previous accomplishments with a new and trusted dev team? I've given this a good thought myself, but am interested in what everyone else believes.
Personally I'm going to say that there will be more installations in the Smash franchise, if only because Nintendo is a corporation and their prime objective is to make money. Not that there's anything wrong with it. I see them releasing a touched up DS port of the original Smash, and maybe a compilation of all previous characters/stages/items in the series, with the game engine of Brawl (the most refined). I'd imagine that this gets done for the next console Nintendo releases, and will probably be a launch title to garnish interest, because a touched up Smash is a system seller. The average console has a lifespan of 5 years, and the Wii is 1 year old, so hey.
They could also go in the 'argh' direction of milking the same game for more cash by offering microtransactions over Wii Shop/Wiiconnect24. I'm willing to bet people would cough up (x) wii points for a new character. Eventually they'd have to release a new Smash game, at which point they'd make sure it could also receive an expansion through some method or another. Not that they'd half-ass it, but I don't think it will be quite the same without Sakurai. Nintendo reps told Sakurai that if he didn't lead Brawl development, they'd just make a Melee rehash with online play, which does send up some red flags.
But maybe that's just me.
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Yeah i will play all of you but before i do that...
1. im getting Falco unlocked.
2. Im getting used to the controls.
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I'm going to try to get Wii iternet before Brawl comes out.
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Looks like this topic is doomed to destruction now.
Oh well. It had a good run.
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I've reserved a copy of SSBB. I noticed that on the site for brawl it says the release was delayed to February, not january. Also, I'll own you with jigglypuff!
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I'll own you with jigglypuff!
I'd own ur jigglypuff with my trainer of pogeymanz
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Hey, Jigglypuff is mine to fight as! >:(
Especially with the green headband~
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Hey, Jigglypuff is mine to fight as! >:(
Especially with the green headband~
Hey what? I use ninja jiggly. :(
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New information has come to light that is making me change my tier list! Among other things, wavedashing and L-Cancelling are confirmed out of Brawl.
Top
Meta Knight-Meta's the same as before, he still owns.
Sonic-He wasn't the most popular character at the expo but he apparently has some vicious tilts at his disposal, along with very quick smashes with good knockback.
Upper
Zero Suit Samus-The whip has amazing range, nobody really played as her because in such short matches smash orbs are hard to come by.
Pit-His air game is supposed to be top notch, and with insane recovery I'm counting him a winner.
Diddy Kong-We were all wrong about Diddy, apparently he's able to pull off a good hit-and-run game, and Brawl seems to be all about that. Reports put di at even crazier levels than Melee, basically meaning that there won't be reliable combos. As such he appears to have gone from mediocrity to prominence.
Middle
It might seem strange that I have a 3 person upper, but I don't see much of a gap between playable characters. As a game Brawl looks balanced, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
Peach-Weaker downsmash, worse grab, nerfed dash, float cancelling gone, weaker turnips, and a better bair make Peach half the rapist she used to be. She's still going to rock but she lost part of what made her so devastating.
Mario-While everyone around him seems to have gotten worse, Mario has gotten better! Fludd apparently isn't nearly so good as I anticipated but Mario's the only one who hasn't seen a fundamental beatdown of their primary tactics and as such I have him placed this high.
Fox-Fox has taken a huge hit this game. Fox can't wavedash, and therefore pull off waveshines, his laser has a worse range, he can't foxtrot, his aerials were nerfed, and now everyone else is floating. Good bye close combat havoc.
Pikachu-So Pikachu's not any better, but he's not any worse and therefore has a leg up over others. Sounds great.
Wario-Still a boring fat man with the potential for stalling out then letting loose for devastating effects who gets overshadowed by other dudes.
Lower
Samus-Samus lost the ability to bombjump, missile cancel, and so I'm questioning her competitive use. Her charge shot was nerfed bigtime as well, so she doesn't even play that good of a distance game which is a shame because Prime 3 rocked.
Kirby-We don't know much about Kirby, not that there is much different from Melee, but we do know that di is bigger in Brawl than Melee, so a floaty multijump character with nothing else going for it deserves an honorary position in the lower ranks.
Donkey Kong-He's sort of fast for a heavy character, but he's still not one of the better fighters in the game. And therefore I put him right here. Clever.
Ike-Ike is worse than everyone thought, as his attacks are too sluggish to be practical and his aerials leave much to desire. Basically he's a slow Roy, who wasn't exactly Mr. Amazing to begin with.
Ice Climbers-They can't wavedash anymore, so are slow as bananas and have no range. No chain throws either. I can't see anyone playing these guys in a serious match.
Bottom
Yoshi-He can't doublejump cancel anymore, so Yoshi sucks even more now. It's a shame because Yoshi is awesome as a character.
Link-I had to move Link a few spots down because he can no longer spike with his recovery move. Link used to be great for edgeguarding, if he could somehow knock an opponent off the stage, but not so much anymore unless you want to grant your opponent another jump with the flinch from bombs.
Snake-Snake is a gimmick! Discuss.
Bowser-People were raving about Bowser being better in Brawl, but he's still Bowser. His side B got improved so it's now a devastating move with excellent range and power...but he's still Bowser. He's a huge target with no recovery. Next.
Zelda-Zelda is still not blond.
Pokemon Trainer-As though you need another explanation.
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Tier List V.2
Alright, so since I've posted the first tier list, Sakurai has released a playable Brawl demo. This demo effectively allowed us to know the details of every move, movement in general, final smashes, and visual stuff for the following characters: Ike, Fox, Mario, Yoshi, Peach, Diddy, Pikachu, Metaknight, Pit, Samus/Zamus, Sonic, Link, Donkey Kong, and Bowser. As such, we now know far better the actual moves, characteristics, and playability for these characters. We also know certain tactics (such as wavedash, lcancel, conventional airdodge) are gone but new ones (like edgehugging, ridiculous di, and general floatyness). Opinions on characters have been -drastically- changed, in only a couple weeks. This proves how unpredictable this game will be. Anyway, on with the revamped tier list. Each char will display a +/- based on how much they raised/dropped.
Top
+2 Zero Suit Samus - I thought her whip would be good. I didn't think it would be great. The range on that thing is incredible. She has projectiles as well! The only real problem with Zamus is the fact that it's impossible to become her. :( She probably won't see the light of tournament play because she'll need the smash ball. But that whip+her general speed and closecombatness is insane.
+/-0 Metaknight - His comboing ability was well proven. His tornado special+side special are great special attacks, and his up-b provides intense recovery. His sword attacks are great, and his fsmash is a very good killmove. Marth w/ recovery it seems.
High
+5 Pit - Amazing recovery from his up b+ very good sword moves+multiple jumps for aerial combat=very good character.
-3 Fox - He lost wavedash as a reliable mode of transportation, you can no longer foxtrot, he's not as much of a fastfaller so his quick combo gamestyle is lessened, it's much more difficult to shine cancel. Basic fox play is ruined, but I think his great moves will likely still do well in the new play. His laser sucks too, btw. EDIT: Gimpyfish also says MAJOR SUCKS IS FOX. so yeah.
-1 Peach - Her downsmash has less range, her float cancelling doesn't work. Her dash attack is different.. You can't really tell if it's good or bad. Turnips are roughly the same, while upsmash and bair or more powerful. Peach would probably remain in the same spot had Pit not gotten better. EDIT: Float cancelling's in. commence higher peach playability.
Middle
+1 Sonic - He's fast. He's di-tastic. His moveset, however, seems to be -very- heavily based ont he spindash. His tilts are purported to be really good, but all the spindash attack are reported as gimmicky and not really that useful. I think you'll be able to see a charged spindash from a mile away. However, many of sonic's non spindash a moves look alright. He's worse in my opinion, but not enough to really get lowered. He's only higher on the tier list beacause Samus and Ike dropped.
+9 Diddy - The biggest riser in my tier list.. Diddy's popgun is a decent projectile, his up-b recovers and kills well, his quick hit-and-run attacks are well suited for brawl, and his tail is a fun little attack device. Yay diddy.
+1 Mario - Fludd sucks. Mario's still general wellbalanced decent character besides that. EDIT: Gimpyfish has a LOT of good to say about mario. I kind of want to put him high tier.
-3 Samus - Despite what genus claims, swd really is not that essential to Samus gameplay. Samus does take a huge hit because of the loss of wavedash (samus had a great wd and especially wavesmash), loss of missile canceling (so projectiles are less smooth), and loss of bomb jump (so recovery is much, much shorter, though still good). Some atacks are more powerful, though.
+/-0 Link - His moves seem to be a tad less laggy and more powerful, and there are slight aesthetic changes to stuff like his boomerang. I think this is a pretty accurate position for him.
+3 Pikachu - I decided that he was unfairly rated too low based on his moveset. It's pikachu. It's decent.
+/-0 Snake - No new news in the world of snake. Or most of bottom tier, for that matter. Maybe I'm biased against players I haven't seen.
Low
+/-0 Donkey Kong - again, no real change among the guy. Or he wasn't well played.
-9 Ike - Can you say FLUNK? Biggest dropper by -far-. He is slow. really really slow. He's effectively as slow as bowser, only he has a sword and vertical recovery. I'm ranking him high based on the idea that his disjointed hitbox provides a decent hitbox, but it's optimistic thinking since he's so slow. Not really marth at all.
-4 Ice Climbers - No wavedash=no real ground movement. Increased aerial play=ics have to jump. ugh. :( but their ground play, especially smashes and grabs, is so great it seems they'll still stay over bottom tier.
+4 Lucas - I just decided I was being too harsh on Lucas, who probably has a fairly different moveset than Ness anyway.
Bottom
+2 Bowser - The no flinch rule actually seems to be better than I thought it was. His new side b seems really decent as well. Since his up-b is still all the ownage it used to be, I see decent playability.
-1 Pokemon Trainer - No change in info
-1 Zelda - see above
-5 Yoshi - He can't djc, his eggtoss airtime is very little, and his attacks show no real positive change. The up-b hype was unbased.
+/-0 Kirby - lalala no change.
+/-0 Wario - My justification for bottom of bottoming such an awesome character stands.
I sure hope we get some info on Snake, Kirby, Wario, and all the seemingly bottom tier gang soon so I won't be so biased against them.
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I don't care about tiers, I play as the ones I like best/I'm best with. FUN, PEOPLE! FUN!
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PPA, let them have their fun.
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Where'd you get that tier list? I mean, I understand your reasoning, but there should be NO tier list at all until the game comes out and all the unlockable chars. have been taken into consideration. For all we know, Captain Falcon is going to destroy everything this game has ever known.
I'm glad this thread got really big. I'm currently about half and half on the subject. If any of you want to find updates, there's a thread from a guy called Gimpyfish on smashboards. He's the best Bowser in the nation, and he's been playing the game daily, giving updates and such. It's a really good topic if you want to know some stuff about Brawl so far.
Once again, tier lists? This early? We don't even know who can come close to PARTICIPATING in the tier list! Sorry, it just makes me mad. Tier lists are for n00bs anyway.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121329
That's the thread. Enjoy
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Rayku, let them have their fun.
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Rayku, let them have their fun.
But I don't wanna.
BTW, Peach got UPGRADED if anything. SRSLY
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I'm just happy they didn't totally nerf sonic, and he's still the fastest thing alive!
also: if you're fast enough, spindash is hella fast, according to reports of S-runners that attended EfA. Further, most of the serious players are really looking forward to the release..
I personally want a balanced game: I want to be able to play who I like, not who's good (for the record, I hate Marth, Fox, and Shiek from their respective games, and Melee made me want to shoot whoever created those sorry bastards. I was a fan of Koopa and Purin, they got nerfed bad (bowser bottom tier, and Purin no longer able to combo due to DI, no hitstun/shieldstun and various other things), and I eventually stuck with Falco for his uber-drill and his pillaring...
that's why I like GGX2... tons of character, but still has GREAT balance (most balanced game since the original SSB)
Be well, everyone, that's my two cents for the moment: until the next update or new vids or something
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Where'd you get that tier list?
From my own head and the reports of other people.
I mean, I understand your reasoning, but there should be NO tier list at all until the game comes out and all the unlockable chars. have been taken into consideration. For all we know, Captain Falcon is going to destroy everything this game has ever known.
If you believe it's alright to say I'm not allowed to speculate, you're the last person on earth to say "Falcon may destroy everything". Though I understand you're not serious, you can't criticize -me- for having fun and speculating how playable characters are, and turn around and provide a hypothetical example. The argument "you can't speculate becasue you don't know" is entirely invalid because that's the POINT of speculation. People speculate who will be in Brawl. Why is that ok, but speculating the playability of characters isn't?
I'm glad this thread got really big. I'm currently about half and half on the subject. If any of you want to find updates, there's a thread from a guy called Gimpyfish on smashboards. He's the best Bowser in the nation, and he's been playing the game daily, giving updates and such. It's a really good topic if you want to know some stuff about Brawl so far.
I read this topic every update. I know who Gimpyfish is. I based my v2 tier list thing a lot off Gimpy's second update.
Once again, tier lists? This early?
I never said that this was the conclusive tier list. I never said we had to abide by this. I did say that I was merely having fun and speculating.
We don't even know who can come close to PARTICIPATING in the tier list! Sorry, it just makes me mad.
You've made it quite clear that any speculative thinking in which there is a shortage of information (or even when there isn't a shortage of information) upsets you. Why did you make the first version of this thread?
Tier lists are for n00bs anyway.
Correction: Playing a character because he's high on the tier list is for noobs. Ranking how good characters are is not for noobs. I'll have it be known I quite enjoy playing Donkey Kong, who's fairly low on the tier list to begin with. I don't use the tier list to play. I enjoy reading he tier list to see which characters have advantages and why. Does that make me a noob? Really?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121329
That's the thread. Enjoy
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Where'd you get that tier list?
From my own head and the reports of other people.
I mean, I understand your reasoning, but there should be NO tier list at all until the game comes out and all the unlockable chars. have been taken into consideration. For all we know, Captain Falcon is going to destroy everything this game has ever known.
If you believe it's alright to say I'm not allowed to speculate, you're the last person on earth to say "Falcon may destroy everything". Though I understand you're not serious, you can't criticize -me- for having fun and speculating how playable characters are, and turn around and provide a hypothetical example. The argument "you can't speculate becasue you don't know" is entirely invalid because that's the POINT of speculation. People speculate who will be in Brawl. Why is that ok, but speculating the playability of characters isn't?
I'm glad this thread got really big. I'm currently about half and half on the subject. If any of you want to find updates, there's a thread from a guy called Gimpyfish on smashboards. He's the best Bowser in the nation, and he's been playing the game daily, giving updates and such. It's a really good topic if you want to know some stuff about Brawl so far.
I read this topic every update. I know who Gimpyfish is. I based my v2 tier list thing a lot off Gimpy's second update.
Once again, tier lists? This early?
I never said that this was the conclusive tier list. I never said we had to abide by this. I did say that I was merely having fun and speculating.
We don't even know who can come close to PARTICIPATING in the tier list! Sorry, it just makes me mad.
You've made it quite clear that any speculative thinking in which there is a shortage of information (or even when there isn't a shortage of information) upsets you. Why did you make the first version of this thread?
Tier lists are for n00bs anyway.
Correction: Playing a character because he's high on the tier list is for noobs. Ranking how good characters are is not for noobs. I'll have it be known I quite enjoy playing Donkey Kong, who's fairly low on the tier list to begin with. I don't use the tier list to play. I enjoy reading he tier list to see which characters have advantages and why. Does that make me a noob? Really?
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=121329
That's the thread. Enjoy
You just repeated yourself about 3 times in the same post...Wow. I'm not making any future predictions for this game solely for the purpose of getting a 'YOU GOT OWNED' because I'm not very popular to begin with, my reputation has very little to take before it's completely trashed.
You responded to my post as if I've posted about 9 times. 'You've made it quite clear that...' Yes, I made myself clear. You don't have to tell me that twice. I get it the first time. Don't talk down to me like some scrub who doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm sorry if I made you feel like I was doing that.
With that, I'm going to leave this thread. Most of the people that are talking about Brawl are ignorant anyway, and that's after looking at all the Brawl threads. Smashboards reminds me of Gamefaqs, some good players, but the rest of the community doesn't now what the f*** it's talking about.
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Oooh, tensions abounds.
First off I want to ruin this post by posting in an order that does not encourage lucid and well thought out replies, but rather turns it into a petty flame war.
This Pictochat stage looks fairly interesting, though of course in real Pictochat there would be more sexual organs. Still, it does look like a fairly interesting stage. I'd also like to point out that 'Brain Age' is one of the tracks you can listen to on that level...does this mean that a Brain is a playable stage? If so awesome.
Anyways, since when were you anything about awesome Rayku? I've seen no digs at your reputation...ever. Maybe I'm not very aloof, but I'm picking up on nothing. So nobody's going to rake you over the coals for a bad prediction.
And if you call someone a n00b for reasons that really aren't justified, do expect a counter-assertion that they aren't. You asked Stefan something obvious- 'why are you doing this', so of course you'll get a simple answer. It only comes off as condescending because you're being condescending. Do not assume it's because he's an impotent who feels the need to make their bad ideas known, drowning out a user of more credibility.
k? k.
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You've still failed to address my core question about your unjustified attacking me:
Why is it ok for people to speculate other things, but not tier lists?
The answer has to be either
a.) "both are equally acceptable", in which case your bashing of me was entirely unjustified.
b.) "valid reason", which I've yet to think of an example, in which case I'll promptly stop making tier lists OR
c.) "it's not ok to speculate other things", in which case you're a hypocrite:
I could see it like a level such as Mushroom Kingdom, where you can just walk off the edges, but there would be stuff like trees that could bar your way, with springs on the top that you can't see, assuming that could POSSIBLY (hint?) be an item yet to be announced
So what is it? :(
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I didn't mean to attack you such as you say, even though I may have seemed that way. My bad, I say. I just don't like the idea of a tier list that doesn't include every character in the game, because they're not announced. I have SERIOUS issues with whatever douche bag made a 'tier list' on smashboards as well, although I'm not going to post on there, because nobody gives a rat's ass about my opinion. I'm just a lonely GA smasher, yet to rise to the occasion in any way.
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I hate Smashboards, all they are are a whiny bunch of SSBM fan-fucks... In any case, I'm happy WDing is gone, even if it did let me annihilate my competition, because it was annoying to master in the first place... it's just like they nerfed ZCing (instant recovery) to LCing (reduced recovering), and I didn't complain about that...
it's a whole new game, not a souped-up SSB or SSBM... DI is different, the "stick" is back, and things are still going to be slow at low levels of playing and fast-as-hell at high levels of playing... no biggie there, right?
I can't wait to be able to go at this game with the GC controller, though... especially against all my friends who are fellow lovers of this game and all you TSC bastards who I can play online
Interesting question: are we going to be able to play across the pond, or only against our versions? (US/PAL/JP/AU)? does anyone know yet?
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TONIGHTS UPDATE: STAGE BUILDER
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various10.html
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
FINALLY IT DOESNT MATTER WHETHER OR NOT TIKAL IS IN THE GAME BECAUSE I WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE A STAGE THAT IS OF THE WILL OF TIKAL'S WILL
BUT WAIT
on deeper inspection, WE HAVE THIS SUBMIMINAL UPDATE
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/images/various10/various10_071029b.jpg
stickerbrush symphony, aka the most awesome music in DKC2, CONFIRMED
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TONIGHTS UPDATE: STAGE BUILDER
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/various10.html
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
FINALLY IT DOESNT MATTER WHETHER OR NOT TIKAL IS IN THE GAME BECAUSE I WILL BE ABLE TO CREATE A STAGE THAT IS OF THE WILL OF TIKAL'S WILL
*splurt*
Also whut ladders?! http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/gamemode/various/images/various10/various10_071029e-l.jpg
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I was more interested in the belated confirmation that Dedede will have his floating ability (http://www.smashbros.com/en_uk/gamemode/various/images/various10/various10_071029a-l.jpg).
Seriously, though, stage-builder is fucking awesome.
As was Dedede's confirmation.
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I officially eat my words on DeDeDe and Krystal. All mock in fair time.
I love this level editor idea, but I know it's going to fall under "mapmaker syndrome"-that is, the maps may be different but they all feel more or less the same.
Anyways I figured I would change things up, and post a theoretical 40-character roster for Brawl, excluding the 22 officially announced characters (Zss and Samus I count as the same character). Which leaves you 18 characters. It will be interesting to compare our lists with the final roster.
CHARACTERS?
1) Luigi-Accidentally confirmed by a Nintendo rep during a press conference. But even if he wasn't, there's no way Luigi doesn't make this game because he's a huge character in Nintendo's flagship franchise.
2) Krystal-Krystal's voice actor said that in Brawl, she voices Knuckle Joe, Zero-Suit, and Krystal. This could mean she's an assist trophy, but I find this prospect dubious as Krystal is one of the most requested characters for Brawl.
3)Ganondorf-Ganondorf is huge. Man. Basically he's the main nemesis of one of Nintendo's most acclaimed series. I don't see Ganondorf getting left out of Brawl.
4)Captain Falcon-Captain Falcon was in both of the previous Smash games, so I see him getting included on his past alone. With Goroh confirmed as an assist trophy, you know Sakurai hasn't forgotten about F-Zero.
5)Jigglypuff-Jiggly is another character with smash history, and she's become iconic for (among other things) being everyone's first unlockable. I just don't see Jiggs getting left out.
6)Ridley-Ridley is such a badass. He's basically a giant, electric, firebreathing, flying dragon. He's also a major villain in Metroid, a popular series of games that has never had due representation in Smash. I think personally he's a shoo-in.
7)Megaman-Megaman was one of the most requested third-party characters for Brawl, and he's part of one of Nintendo's longtime franchises. Given his Nintendo roots, I consider his inclusion highly likely.
8)Captain Olimar-Stefan actually came up with this idea, and thinking it through it makes sense. If you look at original Nintendo ip's on Gamecube aside from "the usuals" like Mario and Zelda, you pretty much draw a blank. Pikmin is one of the first new series from Nintendo in ages, and Captain Olimar would be a unique character to play.
9)Animal Crossing Player-Animal Crossing was pretty popular, so I'm willing to bet it sees some representation. Nook, KK Slider, and Resetti are obviously not choices, though they are the first you'd think of. They pretty much defined the AC sense of humor. This leaves you with...well, no real alternatives. Aside from an odd few like the Mable Sisters and Brewster, who don't really stand out much, the animals change. So I'm thinking the Animal Crossing Avatar is the only notable left.
10)Mii-Yes, a Mii. Let's be honest: we all want to see our creations smack each other down in battle, and Sakurai seems to be in touch with his audience. Nobody has ever really done anything with Miis...but you know if Sakurai allows Miis to fight, people will be churning out characters like crazy. Besides which, it's an offbeat character. Final smash: a Mii stampede. I love it.
11)Celshaded Link-Sakurai is all over style, and probably gives credit to the Wind Waker games. Wind Waker Link is pretty different from the TP model, and in more ways than Melee's YL/Link pair. Deku Leaf for recovery anyone?
12)Lucario-Lucario was one of the most requested pokemon characters, and he's one of Nintendo's most marketed pokemon. He is fairly interesting: a steel plated ninja. If he isn't playable, I'm sure he at least shows up in a pokeball.
13)Paper Mario-Once more an awesome character from games that were artistic dynamite. With badges, rolling, the paper airplane, etc, he has a huge repository of moves to draw from. Paper Mario games are some of my favorite, not that this has much bearing on what Sakurai thinks or does. However, he is universally regarded as great. I'm unsure on how many votes he received.
14)Pacman-Well ok, I know Sakurai said only 1 or 2 more third party characters, but he's buddy-buddy with Pacman's designer. When you think of old-school arcades, you think of Space Invaders, Frogger, and Pacman. Pacman means something, he's a symbol for nostalgia. Megaman was heavily requested, so I think Sakurai would include him for fan service, and maybe add Pacman for himself. Honestly.
15)Isaac-Isaac from Golden Sun is also noteworthy, and people voted for him en masse. Golden Sun is one of the most acclaimed games for the gba, and Isaac as the title character stands a fair chance of getting into Brawl. Camelot is a second party designer, so he's not bound by the rules of third party character inclusion.
16)Felix-Another dude from Golden Sun, star of the second game. Look a few inches up, you'll see why Felix has a good shot.
17)King K. Rool-King K. Rool was another character people asked for, so I guess he might get in. An alligator with a crown is a pretty cool premise for a character, though he would feel pretty bland as a combatant.
18)Falco-I get the feeling there will be another Starfox representative, and aside from Fox and Krystal, there aren't many other major characters. Star Wolf comes to mind, but as Fox has an alternate costume that makes him look like Wolf, I don't see this happening. Falco for being in last game I guess.
Of course this list is bloated, as I doubt there will be 40 characters. I also left out a few characters I'd like to see in such as Viewtiful Joe and Banjo Kazooie because they're not getting in. Ever. Still, I'd say it's a solid list and most of these characters wind up playable in Brawl.
Edit: looking through the list of characters voted on, I'm remembering a few that are probably getting in. Namely Geno and Sigurd. And others. Who I just forgot.
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Nooo, not Krystal. D: I haet Krystal. SFA is a bad memory.
I never considered him seriously before, but now, thinking about it, I would really like to see Megaman in (as long as it's classic, not that I dislike X or Battle Network, but all these newer ones make my head spin).
I'm personally not sure how much I'd like Paper Mario or WW Link...but those are so up-in-the-air I'm not gonna discuss them. :P
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WW Link > TP Link.
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The stage builder announcement locked me in: I'm definitely getting it.
I (as hard as it is to believe) wasnt stoked over it, but recent develop'ts plus the fact that I'll be getting it for a mere $30 has drawn me in beyond belief.
Only thing I fear is SEGA may be disheartened by Riders ZG's sales #'s...
Don't get any ideas, I'm buying Riders 2 first for sure but the sales wont be as high as they couldve been...
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I'll do the same as Genus, but, well, my predictions will be more logical/cool. yeah.
my 18 characters are as follow:
Confirmed/Given
1. Luigi - Nearest main star of nintendo series, slip up by nintendo rep. Plus, if Pit is in, Luigi is. It's just a given.
2. Ganondorf- There's no way kirby would have 3 reps when zelda would not.. Plus, again, Ganon's been accidentally slipped. But the main villain of the second biggest nintendo franchise is clearly in.
3. Krystal - Sakurai wants more females in. Sakurai wants original (staff wielding) chars in. Star fox is a decently big franchise. Plus, accidental slip up, again.
4.Captain Falcon - Fzero is another classic nintendo franchise. CF has been with Smash since the original twelve. He's just waiting on a confirmation.
5. Jigglypuff - Pokemon is again a big franchise. Original twelve, original characters. Jiggs is back.
EDIT: Oh, accidentally confirmed as well.
Very Likely
6. Ridley - Metroid is a huge franchise. One rep (Samus And zamus are one rep but two characters, attack my logic!) is not enough for the flourishing games. Even in Japan, where metroid is significantly less popular, ridley is very, very well requested. He's original. He's a baddy. He's a flying, firebreathing, heavy char. His size isn't a big deal (see: bowser). He's just -in-. The same way Diddy and Dedede were before him.
7. Olimar - Amazingly original. The star of one of the most original new series since melee was developed. You can't deny how amazing fighting with pikmin would be. You also can't deny that this is a significant series to nintendo. Hello, Olimar! :D
8. Game and Watch - Ice Climbers are in. That's pretty much enough to sway me.
9. Marth- I was originally part of the NO MARTH club. But then I realized.. who will be fe rep two? Marth is hugely popular based on smash alone, but in significance in other games, he's got fairly little. I think he might be in.. but this isn't a guarantee.
10. Falco - I was also part of the no Falco fan club. But since Wolf is deconfirmed, I find a declonified falco likely. Sidekick to Fox, was popular in melee, etc.
Note here I still say no to sheik, but I'm almost swayed on that one as well. :( I hope sheik's out. She's insignificant to OOT and has a pointlessly cheap moveset. People want the moveset, not the char in brawl.
Still High Chances
11. Bowser Jr - Villain of two of the new mario games, original paintbrush based moveset, and a totally awesome smile. I'm really debating replacing him with paper mario, but eh. :(
12. Cel-Shaded Link- It seems contradictory to put up cs link and not paper mario, but I think CS Link is a YL replacement. I don't see a reason not to put cs-link in, really. The clone argument is not valid since you don't know potential movesets. yeah.
13. Megaman - Originated on NES, millions of gba games, and a very cool projectile oriented moveset. I think he's almost certainly the last 3rd-party inclusion.
14. Lucario - If mewtwo gets in, that means we have 7 pokemon from the original RBY games. That makes the 3 newere series entirely unrepresented. I think Lucario would make a better badass than mewtwo would, he's from d/p, he's qell-requested, and he's wellmarketed. Hoorah.
15. Animal Crosser - Yeah. So the icon theory suggests that AC and the touch generation need representative characters. I don't believe the theory myself, but it seems likely that a franchise of the strength of animal corssing will get a rep, anyway. Fishing poles and bug nets for attacks. Oh, boy!
Will the final smash start raining and summon a coelacanth? We will only have to wait.. assuming acer gets in, that is.
Not Exactly "Likely", but still good choices
16. Balloon Fighter - Maybe I'm biased. I -love- balloon fight. But you can't argue with the awesomeness of this character. He floats with balloons! He's nostalgia'd out (which sakurai wants). The real kicker, though, is he was planned for melee! That seems to me like a clear reason to believe he may be coming. Even further, today's update showed balloon fight is recognized, as the fish made it into "summit" stage. Even more, it almost seemed to hit that more of balloon fight was soon to come:
I feel like I’ve seen that fish before somewhere... Where could it have been?
Hinting at balloon fight. I love it!
17. Stafy - (http://www.nintendorks.com/chris/archives/stafy01.gif)
Yeah. You've never heard of him. That's cool. He's a Japan only character, but popular anyway. Two main reasons make me suspect that he may be in brawl:
A.) He's japan only. Sakurai said that he would like some japan only characters in brawl. Stafy would be perfect for this. His game franchise looks very fun, and brawl would be a great way to introduce the U.S. to Stafy, ala fire emblem.
B.) He's unique. He may look like Kirby, but he's not. He depends on spinning his body. I can see many moves derived clearly from his games. Those games are also very popular in Japan. He's not a one game hit, either, he's starred in many. In terms of being iconic, I'm not sure a japanese character is better suited than stafy.
18. Isaac - I don't know much about golden sun, but I know it's a well liked game and that Isaac is wellliked as a character, so i'll arbitrarily include him.
That's it. Now to wait and marvel at how spot on my predictions are!
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I'm happy if Jigglypuff and Sonic are in, though if you've played the game Drill Dozers for GBA, don't you think it'd be interesting to see Jill in Brawl?
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I agree with most of your list. But not so much other parts of your list. Namely the parts that are wrong.
GW returning? I find this a dubious prospect, even if IC's are coming back. I'm feeling apathetic at the moment so I won't bother explaining this. Given my luck, watch GW get confirmed tomorrow.
Bowser Jr as a newcomer I like as an idea, and I wish I thought of it. Not only is SMW a huge deal, but he was in NSMB as well so it's not as though he's a dead character. The one hangback being that Sakurai would have added a whopping 6 Mario characters...which he did last game. In other words I agree with you that he has a very good chance of getting in, assuming someone better doesn't come along. Someone like Paper Mario, who does have a better chance of being playable as he's more notable. In other words I disagree with you.
Balloon Fighter? Sounds like very wishful thinking. He doesn't have much in his movepool, so even with the allusion in today's update I doubt he'll see inclusion as a player character. I wouldn't doubt an AT though.
Stafy I'd never heard of, but looking into it he does sound noteworthy. And Japanese! Therefore included by default.
Oh also random guy: Jill is confirmed as an Assist Trophy, so no dice.
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I say:
- Falco - I mean c'mon. Just his name screams Brawl.. No but srsly, I'd be surprised if he wasn't in.
- Krystal
- Luigi
- Megaman
- Knuckles: He'd stand a better chance than Shadow (minus Shadow's Chaos abilities, that is.) But Shadow should get in over Tails. I mean, who wants to see Tails dropping dummy ring bombs.. again. <_< He's better off as a sidekick/assist trophy.
I don't have a lot of speculations, though, which is better as I won't be setting myself up for disappointment.
Assist Trophies:
- Dry Bones
- Blooper (he'd be JUST as annoying here as he is in MKDS)- Tails (see above)
- Silver: not very likely but it would be nice knowing his abilities from S06.
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Bowser Jr as a newcomer I like as an idea, and I wish I thought of it. Not only is SMW a huge deal, but he was in NSMB as well so it's not as though he's a dead character.
Um, Bowser Jr wasn't in SMW. He was introduced in SMS. It was the Koopalings in SMW/SMB3. And I dislike Bowser Jr for pushing them out. :(
I hope Mewtwo returns. Even though he was bottom tier in Melee I still enjoyed playing as him.
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KS8, Tails/Shadow/anyone not sonic from the sonic series had NO CHANCE as a character.
thank you and have a nice day.
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I just saw Stefan posted Stafy! I have the third Stafy game for GBA, and it's awesome. My grandmother brought it to me from a Japan travel a few years ago.
Wario cameo ftw. Also the real fun begins once you have beaten the game. The new levels get harder and everything gets more awesome. And I still haven't beaten the second final boss. :(
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I But Shadow should get in over Tails. I mean, who wants to see Tails dropping dummy ring bombs.. again. <_< He's better off as a sidekick/assist trophy.
I count that attack as non-cannon. Check out Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle for a better Tails move-set.
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I But Shadow should get in over Tails. I mean, who wants to see Tails dropping dummy ring bombs.. again. <_< He's better off as a sidekick/assist trophy.
I count that attack as non-cannon. Check out Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle for a better Tails move-set.
I endorse this.
Sonic Battle was a "meh" game but it had a decent set of moves for all the characters. I don't know why they didn't expand on some of them more in later games. Can't speak for StF though.
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I But Shadow should get in over Tails. I mean, who wants to see Tails dropping dummy ring bombs.. again. <_< He's better off as a sidekick/assist trophy.
I count that attack as non-cannon. Check out Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Battle for a better Tails move-set.
I endorse this.
Sonic Battle was a "meh" game but it had a decent set of moves for all the characters. I don't know why they didn't expand on some of them more in later games. Can't speak for StF though.
I suggest they use attacks from multiple games such as the attack tails gets in Sonic Adventure, as well as tails's attacks from Sonic Riders.
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It's irrelevant because tails won't get in.
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I saw an artical in NP that showed a screenshot of Sonic, Tails, Mario, and Link at GHZ. It couldn't be The subspace emissary becvause there were four characters. This shows that Tails is either an assist trophie, or a playable character. This also shows that GHZ will be in SSBB.
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Picture?
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I very much doubt your credibility...if this were true it would be all over smashboards.
Edit: not worth a double post, but CoroCoro magazine, the same magazine responsible for giving information on 4th gen pokemon ages before anything was known is set to reveal either the starter or full roster of Brawl on December 15. The paraphrased translation of the article can be found here (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=127033).
Hax man, total hax.
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I doubt your doubt.
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It would be great if you had half an anthill filled with reasons why you "doubt my doubt". Unfortunately you are sorely lacking in support because there is none. Let's gloss this over, maybe you'll learn something today.
I said that I doubt that you have found such a picture, as none exists, and you responded by saying, at least grammatically, "I do not believe that you doubt my claim". I'll think higher of your intelligence than some may feel is warranted and assume that's not what you meant to say. If that's what you meant to say then I'm sorry in the most superficial meaning of the word, but you have no place in society, local or otherwise.
If you in fact meant to say "I do not believe that your disbelief in my previous statement is founded given clear evidence to the contrary", then more power to you. You're better than the other you I just outlined, but only marginally. Don't be proposing a toast to that at any dinner parties because it's no large feat. You come out of nowhere and claim you've seen something that nobody else has, hiding behind the ambiguity of "some article in NP" in the off hope nobody calls you out on your propagation of probable falsehoods in the name of personal glory. The burden of proof is on you to produce this screenshot, via scanning or a verifiable source, as its existence is dubious to a tee. Tails confirmed as an Assist Trophy or Green Hill confirmed as a stage does not get you off the hook here since you're citing future events as present fact, which you can't do.
If you want to redeem yourself then good luck, there's a mountain of logic saying this is just bluster on your part. I will eat my words, a liter of vinegar as well, if it turns out this is a real picture. Until then have fun with a deserved mired reputation because contrary to what you may have been told, you are in fact guilty until proven innocent. The way good minds, real minds, work is that they make snap judgements and don't worry they may not be giving the target a fair and objective shake. So anyone that matters is pretty much against you from the start because you're saying brash things very loudly. If I were you, I would do one of three things. Either grow up, since it's very obvious you are a spring chicken no matter how much you think you're hiding it and your true mental faculties could be unlocked with age, get used to it because you may in fact be of inferior intellectual stock and not cut out to express yourself, or move on to somewhere where you will be top dog in wisdom since here you have earned no clout but in other areas could be a god among the brutish natives. What I'm telling you to do, basically, is to prove yourself, or admit you lied to get respect.
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I'll post it, as soon as I can find the issue that I saw it in. Then I'll have proof. As for what you said, I could't follow along with it.
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@ IEAS- I happen to be a current subscriber to Nintendo Power, and if you say that you saw that photo recently, then that would be false. I have not seen said picture of Tails in Green Hill stage in Brawl. But if you have seen that photo, then it was not in Brawl, but in Melee; and that photo happened to be false and years old now.
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Look, I know I saw the photo, NP or not NP(maybe it was a dream.....),and lately I've been scavanging around my house to find the photo.No, it wasn't a photo from Melee(Link's clothing was from Twilight Princess).I don't know where I saw it(I'm sure it was in NP)but I'm certain I saw it.
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Well woopdee-fucking-doo.
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STUPID NINTENDO IS PUTTING STAFY IN ONLY AS AN ASSIST TROPHY AND NOT PLAYABLE
http://www.smashbros.com/en_uk/items/assist/assist13.html
My dreams are shattered. D:
Also he looks incredibly fat in 3D.
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Not only are my dreams shattered, one of my character picks is guaranteed to be wrong!
this is an outrage.
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I thought the exact same thing as I was asking myself "why did you do this Nintendo?"
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Well my roster is looking better than yours!
(At the moment anyways...once my Felix/Isaac, Mii/Animal Crosser, Megaman/Pacman, and K. Rool nonsense hits the fan things will level out)
Anyways, it's a shame Sakurai isn't going the extra mile with making characters playable...Little Mac, Saki, and Stafy as boring AT's only kind of depresses me. These are original characters getting the shaft, which is a shame. Though you know that there will be some crazy, left-field characters that nobody sees coming, which makes up for it. If there are no 'nonsense' characters, then I full-well reserve my right to complain about how Sakurai wasn't nearly creative enough in character inclusion. Except for some lame characters/AT, like Waluigi, who just aren't interesting enough to include in the game. Speaking of which, apparently Waluigi curbstomps people he doesn't like while grinning in a deluded fashion.
Moving on...no new information was released from CoroCoro magazine today, it was all recycled information from the Dojo. No information on the full roster until January 25 guys :(
And moving on from moving on, the guitar portion of the Ice Climber song is amazing. The song itself is schizophrenic though...it can't decide whether it wants to be a slowpaced, 'epic' song or a diecore rock sort of thing.
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Anyone else not surprised Waluigi turned out to appear as an Assist Trophy. I figured as much. But that was smart letting him use his moves from Power Tennis (sorta.. I'm glad they're not the same b/c his special abilities from Power Tennis were dumb).
I'm very happy about the Mario Circuit track. Not just b/c Figure 8 is my best track in MKDS, but b/c it rivals Mute City from Melee (although I never played it for more than a couple seconds, like I said I've only played Melee for 20 minutes in my whole lifetime, as surprising as that sounds XD).
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I twas clear that waluigi would be an at. he's not relevant enough to the mario franchise at all.
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I saw an artical in NP that showed a screenshot of Sonic, Tails, Mario, and Link at GHZ. It couldn't be The subspace emissary becvause there were four characters. This shows that Tails is either an assist trophie, or a playable character. This also shows that GHZ will be in SSBB.
C'mon. Is it really THAT surprising seeing Tails in?
I've always said he'd get in as a playable character and why wouldn't he (or Knux for that matter)?
If 3 people can hail from the Kirby series, why can't 2 (or 3?) hail from the Sonic series?
It's not that improbable.
Also, regarding the post above, I think Waluigi is such a stupid character. Both Waluigi and Wario are dumb, imo. But anyway, I would've preferred another character to appear from the franchise, like Toad or Dry Bones (my favourite characters). :D
Imagine Birdo in this game. XD
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I saw an artical in NP that showed a screenshot of Sonic, Tails, Mario, and Link at GHZ. It couldn't be The subspace emissary becvause there were four characters. This shows that Tails is either an assist trophie, or a playable character. This also shows that GHZ will be in SSBB.
Proof? My friend has a Nintendo Power subscription and I looked in the SSBB section. I didn't see Tails in any screenshot, let alone GHZ.
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If any of sonic friends' dont make it as a playable charecter(which is unlikely) its possible that one of them might be an assist
trophy.
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I saw an artical in NP that showed a screenshot of Sonic, Tails, Mario, and Link at GHZ. It couldn't be The subspace emissary becvause there were four characters. This shows that Tails is either an assist trophie, or a playable character. This also shows that GHZ will be in SSBB.
C'mon. Is it really THAT surprising seeing Tails in?
I've always said he'd get in as a playable character and why wouldn't he (or Knux for that matter)?
If 3 people can hail from the Kirby series, why can't 2 (or 3?) hail from the Sonic series?
It's not that improbable.
Also, regarding the post above, I think Waluigi is such a stupid character. Both Waluigi and Wario are dumb, imo. But anyway, I would've preferred another character to appear from the franchise, like Toad or Dry Bones (my favourite characters). :D
Imagine Birdo in this game. XD
Your argument is irrational in so many places that I don't know where to begin.
Let's start with the beginning. By beginning I mean you believing ieatsonic. Not only is the screenshot fake, as the many people who have nintnedo power display (not to mention that the biggest smash bros community in the world hasn't heard of this pic), but you refused to read that and took this fake, illegitimate picture as reality instantly, without a shed of critical analysis.
Now that the basis of your entire argument has been wiped out from under your feet, let's go for the rationalization of tails's entry. He wouldn't get in because he's not a big character in nintendo history. Sonic was mario's rival. He's on nintendo systems. Tails is a sidekick to a 3rd party company with no significance to nintendo. He's not big. Would tails, a part of sonic, a sega series, get in before a second fzero rep?
You compare Sonic, as a franchise, to kirby. The major problem with that is:
SONIC IS A SEGA GAME. KIRBY IS ARGUABLY THE THIRD MOST IMPORTANT FRANCHISE IN NINTENDO. Maybe fourth. Kirby's important. Kirby is a big part of nintendo games.
Not to mention Sakurai, the creator of Brawl, -designed- kirby and the kirby games. It seems a little more reasonable now.
Even if sonic were that important of a franchise in nintendo's history, why would one of the one/two remaining 3rd party slots go to a franchise that's already represented? Why would we pick a watered down sonic when we could choose from bomberman, pacman, megaman, and anyother man out there?
Tails won't get in. K.
that is all.
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Well SORRY. I'm not overly-excited about this game to the point that I'm ready to defend it. I was jsut sharing what I thought. Geesh.
It's not THAT irrational, and some of it was based on personal opinion/preference anyway. Who said anything about confirmations, etc. I'm just thinking of the possibility he could get in. At the very LEAST as an assist trophy. If not Tails, then Shadow's probably the second-best bet based on his supposed "skills".
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I thought today's update was pretty win, for something that's not technically new.
I'd've liked to have seen the Sonic hat, but oh well. I think almost every picture is pretty funny.
(http://www.smashbros.com/en_uk/characters/images/kirby/kirby_071220s-l.jpg)
Also, accidental confirmation of Dedede's standard special?
(http://www.smashbros.com/en_uk/characters/images/kirby/kirby_071220f-l.jpg)
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Nothing brings joy to my face like that snake kirby hat.
And then nothing wipes it right off like the metaknight hat. :(
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ONOS THREAD NECROMANCY.
Anyway, back on halloween (wow.. that's pathetic. That's how I spent my halloween?), genus and I posted who we predicted would be in brawl's final roster. We arbitrarily set the limit to 40 characters. Since 22 chars had been confirmed by then, we had a list of 18. Now, on January 30th, the final roster has been revealed. As such, I want to go back and revisit my predictions. Where I was right i'll jump for joy, where I was wrong I'll cry sad cries of grief. And in the end, I'll be happy that I almost certainly beat genus.
Anyway, Brawl spoilers follow, so don't read if you don't wanna know.
1. Luigi - Confirmed - This was a nobrainer.
2. Ganondorf - Confirmed - Another clear choice!
3. Krystal - Deconfirmed - Wait... I had Krystal this high up? I was pretty confident in Sakurai's interest in females, new characters, and non clones. Oh well. Wolf's close..
4. Captain Falcon - Confirmed - No brainer
5. Jigglypuff- Confirmed - Duh.
6. Ridley - Deconfirmed - WHAT. NO RIDLEY? Ridley is probably the most popular character not in brawl. He belongs to a series that is sorely underrepresented. He appears twice in the game with a character model and moveset. It is boggling that he wasn't included. My only real gripe about the roster.
7. Olimar - Confirmed - I can't wait to play as Olimar!
8. Game and Watch - Confirmed - Nice call stef~
9. Marth - Confirmed - For a long time, I didn't believe Marth would be included. I changed my mind.
10. Falco - Confirmed - Same as above!
11. Bowser Jr. - Deconfirmed - I assumed Sakurai would want heavy mario representation to have at least 5 characters like last game. BJ (lol! immaturity!) was the clear choice for me there. :(:(
12. Cel-Shaded Link - Confirmed - Called it! Hah!
13. Megaman - Deconfirmed - There's absolutely no debating that, if a new 3rd party was in brawl, it would be megaman. It just didn't pan out.
14. Lucario - Confirmed - I got a bunch of crap from my friends and people online when I said lucario would replace mewtwo. Well, I WAS RIGHT!
15. Animal Crosser - Deconfirmed - Snubbed.
16. Balloon Figher - Deconfirmed - There was reason to believe it would happen....
17. Stafy - Deconfirmed - At least stafy was represented as an at.
18. Isaac - Deconfirmed - Arguably the 4th most wanted character not included.. after ridley, megaman, geno, and animal crosser.
Anyway, of the 18 picks, 10 were correct. My misses were Krystal (better than Wolf..), Ridley (ROBBED), Bowser Jr., Megaman, Acer, Balloon Fighter, Stafy, and Isaac.
I predicted 32/35 characters included in brawl, missing only ness (up until now...), wolf (predicted 3 starfox reps correctly!), and rob (wtf. :()
Let's see you do better genus!
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Spoilers impending! The full roster (http://ranobe.com/up/src/up254176.jpg) is known.
Let's see how well I guessed with my predicted roster... (+1 for every correct guess, nothing for an incorrect guess)
Luigi-Yes! This is pretty obvious.
Krystal-No! Krystal must be an AT or something.
Ganondorf-Yes! Ganondorf was also very obvious. He is still a clone though :(
Captain Falcon-Yes! CF looks less angry now, and is instead just a badass. Eat your heart out Mike.
Jigglypuff-Yes! Once more this was a given.
Ridley-No! He's actually a boss...this surprised me. He wasn't the most feasible of characters sure, but I thought Sakurai would take the time to work on him. Oh well.
Megaman-No! There must have been organizational issues of some sort between Nintendo and Capcom.
Captain Olimar-Yes! All credit to Stefan here.
Animal Crossing Player-No! This is another issue of feasability...Sakurai didn't know how to make this work. I do wonder about the leaf icon on dojo though...
Mii-No! People didn't like Miis too much.
Celshaded Link-Yes! He's a clone too :/
Lucario-Yes! Who here is not surprised that one of the most popular pokemon ever made the cut?
Paper Mario-No! I would have loved PM playable, and I think he's a very interesting character with much moveset potential, but I digress. I guess there were too many Mario reps?
Pacman-No! Sakurai didn't want to design another moveset from the ground up.
Isaac-No! This to me is a big shocker because we have a very popular character with good moveset potential and an upcoming game...just like Roy I would have thought he's be included to promote an upcoming game.
Felix-No! Well obviously if Isaac wasn't in, Felix wouldn't be either.
King K. Rool-No! Because how many heavy characters do we really want.
Falco-Yes! The mind does reel.
=8 right
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My thoughts on the newcomers:
Lucario: No. Die in a fire, you generic lame furry. You are no match for the awesomeness of Mewtwo, you're a disgrace to the game. Fuck you.
Wolf: OH GREAT, A SECOND FOX CLONE! They should rename the game to Super Smash Bros. LANDMASTERS
R.O.B.: I see.
Toon/WW Link: Yeeeees. I was hoping for that one. Now I can play Link without being reminded of TP's mediocrity all the time.
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That Snake Kirby hat wins the internet. Srsly.
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http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1200/36278065ib2qx3jb9.png (http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1200/36278065ib2qx3jb9.png)
The full roster. Sad, but true. :(
EDIT: If any of sonic friends' dont make it as a playable charecter(which is unlikely) its possible that one of them might be an assist
trophy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytIhZp8vxzU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytIhZp8vxzU)
Wrong. Shadow AT confirmed at 47sec. :(
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I like the roster personally. If we're talking the number of playabler characters, people wanted far too much of the game, and set themselves up to be disappointed. If we mean the characters included, then no roster could please a fanbase this large, so the dev team didn't try. While certain characters' inclusions didn't make sense to some people (Wolf, ROB) and the omission of others was equally confusing (Ridley, ACer, insert your favorite characters here), it is as a whole satisfying. Complaining about a game that gives you so much fan service because your favorite character wasn't playable is to me ungrateful. Then again the people saying this sort of thing say also "yeah I'll still get the game", voiding their point entirely.
Anyways to PPA...Lucario is not a "generic lame furry". Lucario is a METAL NINJA. As a general rule, you do not see metal ninjas in most works that feature ninjas. In fact, I think Lucario is the only metal ninja I have ever seen. The only one of something is by definition unique until a copycat comes along. If anyone here, after sprouting fur, is a "generic lame furry", I'd say that's Mewtwo. The plotline of a genetic experiment with amazing powers gone wrong is old and tired. You might like the fact that he's a "badass" but Lucario is equally worthy there. The problem here is that you have nostalgia for Mewtwo...R/B/Y were the first pokemon games you played, and as such you're less willing to accept the "new guard"...if Lucario were ever cut in favor of Mewtwo in another Smash game, and you first played in DP then you'd be saying how Mewtwo is a "generic lame (...bald furry?)". As such stop pretending it's not a matter of perspective.
Also I may post a new tier list tomorrow, as we know the full roster and there is less conjecturing involved. Until then,
,
, ,,
perfunctory statement ending post
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Toon/WW Link: Yeeeees. I was hoping for that one. Now I can play Link without being reminded of TP's mediocrity all the time.
And instead be reminded of WW's... sailing?
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The Wind Waker was unique, charming and refreshing (I admit there was a bit too much sailing though), while I was very disappointed to see TP being nothing but an uninspired OoT rehash that failed to deliver anything new, was too easy, and generally had too many flaws for a Zelda game.
Anyways to PPA...Lucario is not a "generic lame furry". Lucario is a METAL NINJA. As a general rule, you do not see metal ninjas in most works that feature ninjas. In fact, I think Lucario is the only metal ninja I have ever seen.
Wrong. Scizor is a metal ninja. And a lot cooler than Lucario, and less hairy!
And I know that newfags won't know Mewtwo but Lucario, and this is why I stopped being a Nintendo fan: They neglect their old fanbase in favour of "casual gamers", which I find unacceptable (even though I can understand it from an economical viewpoint).
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I'm actually kind of annoyed there are apparently clone characters after all.
I didn't mind them in Melee at all (the Doc was one of my favourite characters), but since we were told (I think, I never heard it from the source but lots of people were saying it) a while ago that there would be no clones, it seems sloppy for them now to go "Oh wait there are clones after all lol". As much as many would disagree with me I'd rather not have had Ness if Lucas were in (even though I haven't played Mother 3). I get the impression Falco and Ganondorf are still clones, as well as Toon Link. What about Wolf (TWO Fox clones? fucking PLEASE)?
HOWEVER
despite this, and the fact that, like many others, I'd've liked Megaman and Ridley, there's no denying that this is an incredible roster. When I finally get this game (fucking NoE) I will enjoy it greatly. I think people feel more disappointed than they would be otherwise because all the really awesome reveals (Sonic, Dedede, Olimar, Wario, Pit, Meta Knight, Snake) already happened, and they didn't keep any good ones to be discovered during the game. After so many good Japan Times it's a come-down for the game to come out and all the unknown secret characters to be clones, veterans, or replacements.
Now I'll just have to steer clear of SSE spoilers. :[
Also KRYSTAL AND BOWSER JR AREN'T IN IT THANK GOD *\o/*
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For interest's sake, I constructed a tier list to compare with whatever list comes out of the MBR in the ensuing months. To sidestep any potential conflict: this is -for fun-, tiers are -not- the most important thing in determining character choice/factoring in who will win a match, I do know who Gimpyfish is, and piss off for mentioning I have too much free time on my hands.
I expect Brawl to be less oriented towards effective range than Melee, and more dependant on the area a character can control with respectable power.
FRACTURED TIER LIST IMPENDING
Top
ROB-ROB has Peach's downsmash, powerful and spammable projectiles, good speed, a spike, crazy di (more than even Jigglypuff's), and he's of respectable weight. Oh and there's his godly recovery. ROB can ascend while using his upb for a whopping 5 seconds, during which time he is able to attack. That 5 seconds doesn't have to be used all at once though, so you could jump, ascend, jump again, ascend again, etc...basically he has a vicious wall of pain style strategy. Sounds like ROB will be able to fight well at close and far ranges, which no other character has ever been able to do.
King DeDeDe-DDD has very good recovery, extremely powerful moves (he can ko Mario at 17% on FD with a fully charged fsmash...while it neglects di that is still awesome), a spammable projectile with decent damage and knockback, he's floaty, he's heavy, his attacks are fairly quick, he has a chain throw, and from the looks of things DeDeDe has a disjointed hitbox. He's a large and slow target sure, but DDD sounds like a total beast.
Marth-Tippers are back! Marth is -the- definitive edgeguarder and his moves pack a punch, which is even more important now that Brawl is a floaty game. Marth also gained some in the recovery department with a b move that has very little startup and can gain him horizontal height. I don't know if his chainthrows are back...but Marth kept almost everything that made him great in Melee, and benefitted heavily from the need for ko power.
Lucario-Lucario sounds formidable as well. Lucario has good recovery...if he hits the side of a stage while using his upb, he's able to climb his way up to safety. No joke, look into it. He's also very fast, fairly heavy, floaty, and with strong attacks that come out quickly. Also of note is that he has a unique property-the more damage Lucario takes, the more damage and knockback his attacks deal (up to 2x damage/knockback at 200%). So basically you have a character that's hard to ko with dynamite moves that becomes -stronger- as you beat on him. Fearsome.
Upper
Olimar-People have INSULTED ME for saying Olimar will be obscenely good but Olimar will be obscenely good. He can churn out Pikmin very, very quickly with pikmin pluck and spam them easily with pikmin throw. A defensive Olimar sounds hard to defeat...if he produces purple pikmin and sits there, it's going to be difficult to get through to him...he's also a small target, which definitely works in his favor.
Zero Suit Samus-Do I need to say why ZSS will be awesome? Basically she's fast with Sheik's tilts, Falco's laser, good recovery, can actually combo, etc. etc. etc.
Falco-Falco's laser is stronger, and his downb can be thrown for better range...sounds like he's more or less what he was in Melee, with some significant improvements. Though he doesn't have ko power, Falco can still snipe opponents from far away and hold his ground, punishing anyone who advances. For such a good character, he didn't really fit the meta then (speedy, needling characters on top) and I don't think he will now (from the looks of things powerful characters with good attack range).
Wolf-He's a slower Fox with more attack power, better range, an amazing reflector (check out its size), and superior recovery. Wolf just has a lot going for him.
Meta Knight-MK has lost a lot in my book for lack of powerful moves, but he still has combo potential, a disjointed hitbox, speed, strong aerials, and multiple jumps/good recovery. We may have overestimated his capabilities, but Meta Knight will still be powerful.
Peach-Her godly dsmash has been toned down but turnips and float cancelling are back, and her bair has been improved from Melee...Peach will be good for the same reasons she was in Melee, even without her brutal dsmash.
Pit-I still say Pit will be a very good fighter. He has good combo potential (a rarity), very good recovery, strong aerials, and edgeguarding skills...if Pit can knock someone off the platform then it's pretty much a free kill.
Middle
Pikachu-Pikachu has been severely buffed in Brawl, with added attack power and reduced lag on his moves. Pikachu is more like the SSB version...with infinite range on thunder, thunder spiking is back, his aerials have been improved, his smash attacks are still powerful, etc. etc. etc. Pikachu will still have range problems I think, but they won't be as amplified as they were in Melee.
Kirby-Kirby's been improved from Melee, now that his aerials have fewer startup frames and cover more or less the same range as they did in SSB. Kirby's fair also extends his recovery, compensating for his recovery problems in Melee. His throws can be executed faster as well, making a kirbycide easier to pull off.
Captain Falcon-From what I've heard, CF's moves are still powerful...and he's still fast! This is a very good combination and I do not feel like explaining why.
Bowser-Bowser has been buffed since Melee. His moves are stronger with less lag, he's reportedly faster, his throws have been upgraded, his recovery has improved, on and on and on. I don't think it's enough to make Bowser -that- good, but from the looks of things he'll at least be playable.
Fox-Fox has taken a hit without waveshining and foxtrotting returning, as well as with the floatiness of the game...however his uair can apparently score multiple hits and has more range, so I'd say he's still going to be a solid fighter.
Ganondorf-I've seen very little of Ganondorf in action, but it looks like even though he's slow his attacks come out quickly, and his recovery is marginally better. If that's the case then Ganondorf will be a decidedly average fighter.
Sheik-I've heard rumors that her chainthrows are out, so Sheik lost a lot in the punishment department...tilt combos also don't look like they're feasible anymore, and Sheik's inability to kill at low percents will cost her. Then again she still has needles and such.
Mario-Mario -defines- character balance...as far as I see it he's pretty much unchanged from Melee since FLUDD is useless and the Mario Tornado is an aerial.
Luigi-Luigi is better than he was in Melee. His slow falling speed, poor traction, weak ground game, etc. have all been improved...his recovery has also been bolstered since Luigi can jump higher and the super jump punch goes further vertically. He still isn't as good as Mario, but he's more usable than in Melee.
Low
Jigglypuff-I expect that rest combos will become even more necessary for a Jigglypuff player, now that -everything- dies at high percents. Jiggly will, I think, be subpar as a fighter.
Toon Link-WW Link has a few things going for him, but not too much. His dair ("the pogostick") is very easy to get in, and you can use it to damage your opponent almost indefinitely...it's a solid punishing move which will lend itself to a decent wakeup game. He also has solid aerials. His upb is very damaging, and with a strange trajectory hard to target...I see the potential for some very interesting mindgames. TL is also fast...and then the praise ends because he's light, his recovery is bad, and he doesn't have a kill move.
Ike-He has fairly powerful attacks and is heavy with a disjointed hitbox, but his poor recovery and attack speed will hurt his usage.
Sonic-The only things Sonic accels in are speed and recovery...his attacks are weak, comboability is difficult, he doesn't have much range, and on and on and on.
Lucas-Lucas is basically Ness reworked. His PK fire move is surprisingly damaging and he's deceptively strong...but he also has bad recovery, so-so speed, and a light weight.
Ice Climbers-Desynching is back, which means they can chain throw...however, the IC's are abysmally slow without wavedashing and they play a generally poor aerial game. In spite of their strong smash attacks I don't see them playing too well, mainly because their attacks have a lot of startup lag.
Donkey Kong-Not much changed for Donkey Kong. He's still moderately fast and heavy, which is a plus...but then he has bad recovery, he isn't really powerful (as seen in Famitsu's 'top 3'), he has poor range, lackluster aerials, and generally isn't a good character.
Diddy Kong-Diddy Kong is fast and weak with bad range and passable recovery. I do not feel like explaining why this is a bad combination.
Samus-Samus' missiles and chargeshot have been absolutely butchered from Melee to Brawl, so her biggest strength is gone.
Bottom
Link-Link can no longer spike with his upb, so he's a slow character with little power and a shallow playstyle.
Game and Watch-He's bad for the same reason everyone this low is bad...he's slow with crap range and weak attacks. I have seen nothing that would lead me to believe he has been improved from Melee.
Zelda-She's been slightly improved from Melee, but not enough for her to be any good. She's still very slow, light, a large target, and her attacks are laggy.
Yoshi-Blah.
Ness-Ness' attacks are weak, they're laggy, he has bad recovery, he's slow, and he's light. I can think of no redeeming attributes of Ness.
Pokemon Trainer-The pokemon aren't very good...of the bunch only Ivysaur looks like he can combo and kill reliably (Squirtle has problems with range and a general lack of power while Charizard's attacks come out very slowly), and you can't play a single pokemon as PT.
Snake-Snake looks fairly weak and slow, so I'm not expecting much from him. He can potentially edgeguard with his mines/projectiles...but the moves that can actually get the opponent to the point where they're knocked off stage are lacking.
Wario-I overestimated Wario's prowess...even at full power the Wario waft has piddling knocback, his recovery isn't good, and his attacks are slow to come out. For a powerful character, he...isn't, he's only marginally more powerful than most fighters.
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I'm bumping this thread in honour of today's update being awesome.
Also, updated tier lists, anyone?
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One thing I've noticed (not sure if it's been mentioned yet, too lazy to bother looking through the whole topic) is that Jigglypuff's "Rest" move no longer does a one-hit KO unless the opponents' percentage is above 100% or so. Which makes it useless. :(
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One thing I've noticed (not sure if it's been mentioned yet, too lazy to bother looking through the whole topic) is that Jigglypuff's "Rest" move no longer does a one-hit KO unless the opponents' percentage is above 100% or so. Which makes it useless. :(
NOOOOOOOOOO
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That not bad!
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Ok....so as of a tier list.... I'll whip up a quick one....though based solely on what Ive heard and some things I've seen.
Top
Toon Link: much faster, more menuverable, and seemingly more powerful than Link
Wolf: About the same speed as the other spacies...with more power. 5% blaster is pretty nice too
High
Falco: That laser lock just seems easy to set up for a (potential) infinite
Pit: Pit is fast, and seems to have some good KO moves too, plus great recovery
Marth: Same old marth with a bit less range (which actaully hurts quite a bit), and less-powerful non-tippers
Ike: Ike attacks slow...but virtually all of his moves have low% KO potential,and he has great range. He also has a good, fast approach, great ledge stall, and a few really quick, yet still powerful attacks (his bair has virtually no star or end lag, and is stronger than most other characters smashes)
Fox: He may be nerfed a bit...but he's still Fox
Mid
Diddy: Diddy seems fst, and powerful, and has those bananas...only reason he's low is I've heard small characters tear him apart, and bananas can be used against him
DeDeDe: Basically what Genus said...but he really is a huge target...and his powerful moves are SLOW. His chainthrow is also not 100%, and tough to set up as well.
Meta Knight: So fast....but with no KO power. Still, great recovery
Yea well...i've determined now that I don't like how this is turning out......and I'm getting sick of writing it now...so I'll come back to it later >_>
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I don't want to necro, but this is some sort of weirdness right here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Jy3d9v3u8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Jy3d9v3u8)
O_o
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Posting a video of someone doing some type of character hack work of some kind does not call for necro (at least not that I'm aware of for this subject).
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It was either that or make a new thread, and I didn't fell like making one when I have a perfectly good 8+ page discussion topic about it. >.>
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On a random note: lol at how wrong the speculative tier lists were!
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agree with Mike, mainly at the fact that the top of top was marked in the "bottom" tier as only-barely-above-Wario ^_^
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What exactly is said "top of top"?
And where are Marth and Pit on the tier list?
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Snake is the best character in the game, hands-down, as far as tourny is concerned...
and he was ranked as next to worst...
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your right about Snake being top, but MK is in a league of his own apparently.
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Snake > All... Meta's good, but he can't touch snake...
at least as far as I heard...
I stopped playing (and caring about) Brawl once I saw the "top players" vids...
talk about shittastic...
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You're all wrong. Sonic is top.
No seriously, the ONLY way I can consistently beat my kid brother is if I'm playing as Sonic. Or maybe it's just that I'm used to the character. Or maybe, considering my #2 and #3 are ROB and Jigglypuff, I'm just weird.
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Or maybe your brother just sucks and you're a fanboy.
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Toon Link pwns you all, fools.
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yeah sonic blows. having so few kill moves has gimped him and he's not like MK who can avoid that drawback (not to mention having more kill moves than sonic), sonic's speed doesn't compensate for it either.
I've killed sonic's with ganon, but that doesn't mean ganon is above sonic.
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Snake's a beefy dude, and Meta's a potent fellow too...but compared to Melee, Brawl's balanced.
I'm more inclined to complain about Pikachu than anyone else though, if only because thunder jolt is good for pressuring and Pikachu plays a very good defensive game (dsmash, chain throws, wop dairs to outmaneuver most aerials). Basically, you're needled into going on offense and exposing yourself, you never get to engage Pikachu on your own terms. I expect Pikachu to be high tier.
And personally, I nominate my Ganondorf, Zelda, Olimar, Lucario, PT, DDD, and Ness for god tier.
Segue, Sonic sucks, ignoring his poor kill potential he can't really combo (ignoring spindash>aerial and jab fakes, nothing links up). Sonic can potshot, but when you break even in damage when your opponent makes four mistakes to your one, you don't stand a good chance.
Also, Mike said he would host a Brawl tournament, and he never did anything with it! If people are still interested, I'll set one up in the style of my MKDS tournament. Basically, there would be ridiculous conditions to satisfy in battle against pools of people, and an arbitrarily assigned point value for each placing. Every few challenges, the low scorer would be dropped. Exactly like my MKDS tournament! Though probably without a full revival after the final.
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I'll join...provided my wireless router stops being lame. I may just get a new one.
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Count me in for the Brawl tournament.
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Have you guys even watched the nationals?
and no, this game is not more broken than SSBM, but it's way up there, especially when compared to SSB, or GGXX...
That, and the matches are BORING... 90% of HL brawl matches are camping w/ snake against a brutally psycho MK.
Snake misses, MK gets ahold of him and esssentially tears in him half...
OR
Snake keeps the pressure on, and then FT or DT or ABA's MK to death...
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I'll join the brawl tourney. I may not get THAT far though. is it a team or 1 on 1?
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I'll join also granted that the matches will be at night (Eastern Standard Time... >_>). Also, fu all for saying Sonic sucks. :/
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Also, fu all for saying Sonic sucks. :/
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028 (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192028)
Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.
High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf
Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik
Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon
(http://home.graffiti.net/one_tru_blu/emot-unawesome.gif)
Also, Tournament results.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954)
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I thought Toon Link was higher... *shrugs*
Poor Falcon and Renku got nerfed so hard they cried...
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Damn, lol, apparently I use only low tier characters. Maybe that's why I'm not good. <_<
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high tiers are for those who don't want to work at learning the game :(
I could take MK and whoop people easily, but take Falcon and I have to be on my toes for the entire match.
matter of fact, that's who I''ll use most of the time during the tourny...disregard I like G&W and Falco...Luigi and Ness gets some play time in the middle.
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I like marth, it wasn't until recently I learned he was high tier :/
Apparently Pit is low in the high tier too, so *gonk* as rolk says
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...how the hell is R.O.B. that high? ....I call auto BS on that tier.
EDIT: I want an explanation for this one.
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You'd be amazed.
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ROB is top tier because he has an amazing aerial game, ridiculous recovery, the gyroscope shuts down any ground advance (the gyroscope), the laser has broken knockback and range, and the dsmash lets ROB play a strong wakeup game. Basically, once ROB fires that gyroscope he can camp you to death while spamming the laser, or wreck you in the air with his superior aerials, and if you try a reckless rush he can spotddodge and punish you with that dsmash.
Mind, it's pretty obvious that the release of this tier list was premature. Most of the low/bottom tier characters are just underplayed, so we don't know their full potential.
Tomorrow, the tourney topic goes up. Today, this post gets posted.
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...wow.
No seriously, my top five are Sonic, ROB, Jigglypuff, Luigi, and Captain Falcon. Ranked by number of times I've beaten my brother with them. And shall I point out he typically chooses Kirby?
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Sonic's my fave, hands down, but even I know his limitations...
Mostly, it includes a certain overpowered secret operative clone bitch....
or a sword-wielding puffball... >_>
But honestly, while I tend to lose a lot with him, Ike's probably my best character (as in, compared to how well my other characters play against their ranks, he's highest... I think I play at about 70% of Ike's max, while everyone else is at 55% max... hard to explain, sorry)
Snake plays a lot like Testament from GGXX, if Testament had OHKO techs that didn't have lag >_>
as far as wins, it's Marth/pika/falco... and sadly, while I kinda like falco in this game, I hate how he's changed since Melee...
Play me in SSB though, and feel the wrath ^_^
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Ooh, a Brawl tournament. I'll be very rusty due to not playing for a few months, but I'm all for it. I'll enter.
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includes a certain overpowered secret operative clone *#&($....
or a sword-wielding puffball... >_>
Haha, kid bro's two favorite characters.
Actually reminds me ... I won't be in the tourney, but here's an idea for a special type of match that KidBro came up with. 2P Snake vs. Snake in Final Destination, turn off all items that cannot be thrown or used as projectiles. Neither player is allowed to cross the diamond in the center of the field; game is fought ENTIRELY with projectiles. Penalty for anyone who crosses the center diamond is that the defending player gets to lay into him until he leaves (only used rarely though). It's actually quite fun and quite amusing ... watching KidBro hit the soccerball with the guided rocket is very entertaining, even (especially) when he successfully hits me with it.
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Whoa! G+W is top teir! Hmm... kinda explains why i'm so good w/ him i guess...
NEwayz I use G+W, MK, and Falco as mains... I wanna get better w/ falco though... Any Tips?
Looking back: i'm kinda happy i don't use meta too much. He's soo broken and that makes things way too easy. (Plus he's my punishment character <<:)
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Minus, don't censor other peoples statements when QUOTING them... most find it insulting