The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => Information Kiosk => Non-Sonic Site Discussion => Topic started by: Ring Rush on June 03, 2007, 09:31:11 pm
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Just an idea I've been thinking about, its basically a subsite with charts for things like Minimal Score, Minimal Swaps in Heroes, 2P RA in SA2, and things of the like.
There are a lot of such challenges on the board, and there seems to be interest in them, so why not make it into a subsite?
Works for any Sonic game.
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Copied from a later post:
So here is what I have so far:
SA2 ~ Minimal A m1, Minimal A m2, Minimal A m3, Minimal A m5, Minimal Score m1, Minimal Score m5, Fast Death, 2P rings, Fast Life
SA(DX) ~ Minimal A, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life
SH ~ Minimal Switchs, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life
SSR ~ Minimal Score
Explanations:
Minimal A - Press "A" as little as possible, and get as fast of time as possible. A ammount takes priority over speed. If we can't enable a double chart, we will have to sacrfice time and just make this similar to minimal score. And trust me, this isn't as easy it sounds...for instance, most people wouldn't think Sky Rail m2 would be able to done without pressing A in under a minute.
Minimal Score - Get as low of score as you can, you are not allowed to die in your run.
Fast Death: DIE as fast as you can. Time ends when the timer stops.
Fast Life: Get a 1-up as fast as you can. You must immediately pause afterwards, but it only counts if your life counter goes up...otherwise you will have to unpause and pause again. Round your time down to the nearest second. In SA2, you must use m1. I explain it a bit better in the SA2 challenge topic, but I'm too lazy to check what that says <_<.
2P Rings: Get as much rings as you can in 2P mode of SA2. Your partner may not do anything, and Handicap must be turned off. Time may be on or off by your choice.
Minimal Swaps: In SH, beat the level changing partners as little as you can.
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Interesting :o
I'll give my suggestions later!
edit: whatever:
Sonic Heroes:
-minimal score (sonic (and extra), dark, rose, chaotix (and certain extra))
-fastest death (all normal)
-extra rings (sonic extra and the 4 chaotix extra time limit missions)
-chaotix extra scores (certain missions)
-Sea Gate: time (pause just before goal), score, and rings (both score and rings is probably maxed)
and maybe some more I'm not thinking of right now.
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Minimum-score attacking doesn't work, expecially since there's a handful of levels that have possible 0 score in SA2 (as proven by SM). Not to mention that in Sonic 1 and Sonic 2, there are several levels where 0 score is possible.
That and you can invent an infinite number of challenges, and it would be very hard to get everything into one consistent place.
Also Luigikart that's some "prime" input. >_>
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I edited the post. It is just that I'm about to go to bed. But, I don't see the problem with 0 scores (I guess the system would have to be edited for it though :/). And we could limit the challenges. Of course there are unlimited amount of challenges but do we have to add all them? No. Keep it to things people will be most interested in.
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Oh no! Its possible to tie for minimal scores! How can we ever compete in anything where you can tie :O :O
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so?
there is a max ring count for most games, but I still see charts for those
I'm not really seeing a problem with min score here
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so?
there is a max ring count for most games, but I still see charts for those
I'm not really seeing a problem with min score here
I think SBW is saying that TSC doesn't allow 0 scores and so you couldn't submit them. I guess Rolken could change the system to accept 0 scores or something :/
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Not a bad idea. I can offer my suggestions sometime soon.
Ring Rush, how about that Minimal A Challenge? That was quite a success if I remember right, especially with Heroes. On that note, there are a lot of challenges that could be created/added for Heroes and possibly Riders as well. If something comes to mind, I'll share it with you guys. I'd gladly love to help you guys out with this!
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What exactly is "Minimal A"? I couldn't see the point in trying to get the minimum points for an A? But it gave me the idea of Fastest A :D (which I know isn't my idea :P) I've attached what I think are the most worthy charts for Sonic Heroes Challenges. Tell me anything like if you have a few more good challenges or if you think bosses should have challenges, too (and what they'd be).
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Minimal A = pressing A as few times as possible
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So here is what I have so far:
SA2 ~ Minimal A m1, Minimal A m2, Minimal A m3, Minimal A m5, Minimal Score m1, Minimal Score m5, Fast Death, 2P rings, Fast Life
SA(DX) ~ Minimal A, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life
SH ~ Minimal Switchs, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life
SSR ~ Minimal Score
Explanations:
Minimal A - Press "A" as little as possible, and get as fast of time as possible. A ammount takes priority over speed. If we can't enable a double chart, we will have to sacrfice time and just make this similar to minimal score. And trust me, this isn't as easy it sounds...for instance, most people wouldn't think Sky Rail m2 would be able to done without pressing A in under a minute.
Minimal Score - Get as low of score as you can, you are not allowed to die in your run.
Fast Death: DIE as fast as you can. Time ends when the timer stops.
Fast Life: Get a 1-up as fast as you can. You must immediately pause afterwards, but it only counts if your life counter goes up...otherwise you will have to unpause and pause again. Round your time down to the nearest second. In SA2, you must use m1. I explain it a bit better in the SA2 challenge topic, but I'm too lazy to check what that says <_<.
2P Rings: Get as much rings as you can in 2P mode of SA2. Your partner may not do anything, and Handicap must be turned off. Time may be on or off by your choice.
Minimal Swaps: In SH, beat the level changing partners as little as you can.
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I didn't think Minimal A or Minimal Swap would be good because of possible miscounting. I guess Fast Life works and I will have to check out 2p charts for SH.
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I didn't think Minimal A or Minimal Swap would be good because of possible miscounting.
I'd personally agree, because as we all know, a lot of people come here and think it's okay to "remember" a stat without checking to make sure. Also with Minimal Swap, we'd have to decided whether passing through a "formation gate" counts against you, along with bobsleds, where you immediately become Fly.
I'm personally against 2p rings because there'd be a lot of dispute over SH, and by having a second uncontrolled player, it's mostly the same as regular RAing the level (Mainly SA2). Also brings up the point that with some people not having a second controller, 2p mode is disabled.
But everything else appears fine. (except that maybe Fast 1up wouldn't work everywhere. I'm pretty sure every stage has a 1up box, but I'm not confident)
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I tried minimal A challenges for SA1 when there was a thread. It was fun, although it
wasn't really popular. There was also no-shortcut, but that probably wouldn't work out,
with the definition of "shortcut" and everything. Minimal score could be interesting. So could fast life.
Fast death would be interesting in some stages (Casinopolis, Lost World), but most of the time,
it would consist of running full-speed into the nearest Rhinotank or double-tapping A to launch off the cliff.
Added rules might make it more interesting, but that would have the disadvantage of
being all arbitrary or something. (Why do we have to die by getting hit on this stage,
but by falling out of that stage? And why is this stage missing, while that stage has a chart?
WHO OR WHAT IS DECIDING THE RULES HERE????!!!!!111////oneoneslashslash)
I don't know. It would take consideration, as would the no-shortcut challenges.
Minimal score and especially minimal A should be fine, if there's enough support.
I thought I had something else to say. Blah. Anyway, I'll try out some SA challenges,
but some divisions might need to be worked out.
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Heh, well, I'd find Fastest Death to be fun because I have the patience for quick speedruns like that :P For the minimal A thing; it would be fun but I could see problems with miscounting and whatnot (along with SH switches).
And I request sa2(b) mission 4 rings and sh sonic extra rings be added to the main site >:o
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Wait, people are taking this seriously?
Wait till someone suggests blindfolded challenges :/
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I think we should scoop our eyes out with spoons and then see how quickly we can beat Sonic 1.
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Play Sonic CD with your feet!
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...thank you for the constructive criticism.
But honestly, we no where to stop. We aren't going to go as far as "playing with certain body parts" or "playing without certain body parts". And yes, people are taking this seriously, because challenges like this are quite popular.
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And, they're popular because it gives people more to do with a game when they've already played normally a lot. I find them very fun <_<
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Have fun scooping your eyes out with a spoon >_>
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Well, I would actually be interested in no-A TA-ing SA2B. But I refuse to use my tongue to move the control stick.
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RPG and mike have a point. Eventually, people would bring up completely stupid things, and something like this might happen:
"I like the Minimal A Challenge you made!"
"<Insert some method of Thanks here>"
"Why don't we do a Minimal B challenge?"
"<Insert reason here>"
"Still, that's not a valid reason to disallow the Minimal B challenge!"
"If a bunch of people like you came, the site would be flooded with charts and we'd run out of space for them"
"<Insert whining here>"
To make my point more clear, people will be swarming with challenges they want to do, and some will be so stupid, you'd want to have them b&. Also, there is a large amount of dispute that could be created about all of the challenges, and there are too many challenges falling under one similar category for n00bs to point out.
I'd like to remind you too large a genre of challenges fails to meet the guidelines. I think this site might fall under that.
If it passes, however, I'd love to compete and maybe even help with the site.
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They may have a point. The focus needs to be A BIT more clear so as to be sure things won't get overboard...
As mentioned, I'd like to help.
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Hey my eye removal TA idea is completely foolproof.
You cant cheat and peek or see through the blindfold because you have no eyes.
Ingenius, I thought so too.
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I did that the other day, RPG, and I looked like this: o_o
I'm alright now.
Ok, whatever <_<
We could have a vote sort of thing on challenges being added or add whatever the mods feel to be very worthy and popular. I don't know but I'm going to try out some SH challenges.
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2P Rings is a good idea and would you believe that one day I actually did this in Sonic Heroes. Anyway, I think it should be included here as well for the Action Stages and the Expert Races.
That being: Seaside Hill, Grand Metropolis (no BINGO Highway I'm guessing)
How about the Ring Race?
The Fast Life is another great idea. Not so much in favor of the Fast Die but that's just me
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You do realise most of these challenges will be, by definition, a) inaccurately timed and b) unprovable without forcing everyone to submit a video of the entire level?
Why isn't it enough what the game gives to you to play with?
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A] Don't consider pausing "an inaccuracy"; consider it part of the run, where it is important to quickly pause.
B] Other than Minimal A/Swaps, these can all be proven with a picture. But besides, since when have we been big on proof. These are all provable, as you said with a video. Or with a strategy, which is normally proof enough for us.
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A. Pause pretty much works for a lot of these.
B. Yeah, TSC isn't really big on proof. And even Cyberscore adds stuff that is not saved into the game. Now, that is saying something because they are kinda big on proof <_<
But, yeah, I'll again post that I couldn't see Minimal Swapping and Minimal A being added because of miscounting and the need for video proof.
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B] Other than Minimal A/Swaps, these can all be proven with a picture.
I'm personally against using using a picture as proof, because any advanced picture editor can create almost any scene by editing several pixels. There also is still the dispute that it's WAY too wide a variety of challenges. There are dispute over what counts as what.
I like the idea, but the basis doesn't meet the subsite guidelines.
- Clearly defined focus
MAYBE if you tweaked around with the idea and knocked out the kinks, it would be more worthy (it's a great idea, but this type of thing is probably best off staying in the competition threads).
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Re: Heroes:
I've experimented the Minimal Swaps, Fastest Death, and 1-Life challenges for Heroes. Minimal Swaps is surprisingly quite interesting! There are things that need to be ironed out though which I'll get to. The 1-Life Challenge is REALLY good and I can see how competitive it may get. I'm not too interested in the Fastest Death for each level since a lot of them are fairly easy (e.g, start on a rail, just move left and you're dead, easily-maxed times).
I even took pictures of my 1-Life runs. If you're interested, I could add them.
My opinion with the Minimal Swaps/Minimal A: you have to set up a special class or something to highlight that the less swaps, the higher the rank on the table. 0 swaps is better than 1 swap (and yeah, I've gotten 0 swaps on two levels so far).
Regarding the Minimal Swaps, you need to highlight the ruling on checkpoints. They shouldn't be allowed or something because if you get to a checkpoint, someone could easily justify that as being allowed to go back down to 0 swaps although I never did in the runs I did.
I can help you a lot in the Heroes challenges (same goes for Riders).
Re: Riders:
I came up with this idea for a challenge that's stuck in my mind for a long time:
-> Gear Challenge
- Self-explanatory: Can only use specific gear. This should appeal to Riders players who got frustrated, claiming that "High Booster took over".
Divisions would be:
(1) Default Gear - will attract the most interest, I'm sure. No High Booster means even tighter competition requiring even better skills throughout!
(2) The Crazy - just in case you don't know, uses rings as opposed to air: will also require more caution
(3) Other ideas?: E-Rider, Hovercraft, Cannonball
This one isn't as good but I'm just throwing it out there anyway...
-> Ring/1-Up Challenge
- Based on the 1-Up challenge, how fast you can reach Level 3: NO ITEM BOXES.
There was something else I had to say about one of the Heroes challenges but I forget..
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(e.g, start on a rail, just move left and you're dead, easily-maxed times).
Dont bet on that, its harder to max than you might think.
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Here are some of my records for Heroes as an example:
Fastest Death
Seaside Hill
Sonic - 8.58
Dark - 9.04
Rose - 4.71
Chaotix - 3.73
Minimal Swaps
Seaside Hill
Sonic - 0
Dark - 0
Chaotix - 0
As for Rose, I have tried 0 swapping but I think there were a few spots requiring fly (somewhere after the first set of bonus rings). And, based on memory and theory, that is the only place needed for a swap making 2 swaps at the least.
And, yeah, it is a lot harder than you think to max out things like that. Though, I do think that Rose Egg Fleet would end up and extremely maxed Death level since you can die without even touching the ground (when able to control Amy).
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I tried them and some stages could be easily maxed. E.g, Ocean Palace/Sonic.
But getting the max is fun! :)
Oh, and getting Minmal Swaps doesn't mean anything. You need to get it all in the fastest time too. And I don't know how you didn't use any swaps in Seaside/Dark. You probably used checkpoints. See RingRush, this is what I'm saying. This needs to be ironed out cause I gave all my stats real effort. My best on Seaside/Dark is 3 swaps, 4:24:33. SOME of my scores can be found below:
Fastest Deaths - Team Sonic
Seaside- 8.56 - Mine beats LK64's by 2 mills! :D This is exciting!
Ocean - 7.71
Grand - 10.66
Power - 6.81 6.74
Frog - 6.53 6.36
Mystic - 7.26
Egg - 21.39
Final - 10.19
1-Up - Team Sonic - Can provide proof for all these. Anyone interested?
Seaside - 1:03 0:41
Ocean - 1:29 1:10
Grand - 1:19 1:15
Power - 1:49
Rail - 1:19
Bullet - 1:59
Frog - 1:20
Lost - 1:20
Hang - 1:01
Mystic - 1:36 1:26
Egg - 1:57
Final - 2:36
Minimal Swaps
Seaside/Sonic: 2 Swaps/3:39:24
Seaside/Rose: 0 SWAPS!/ 1:57:43
Ocean/Sonic: 1 Swap/4:18:56
Ocean/Rose: 1 Swap/ 2:26:69
Grand/Sonic: 3 Swaps/3:57:49
Grand/Rose: 0 SWAPS!/3:36:74
Oh and it should be noted that the leader gates don't count against you for swaps.
And LK64, my stat for Seaside/Rose is legit. It is possible to get through using only Amy. You just need to know what you're doing, that's all.
Boy, RingRush, I'm confident the Heroes divisions will be competitive as will the Riders' Default Gear division.
edit:
RR, to save you the trouble: UPDATE:
SA2 ~ Minimal A m1, Minimal A m2, Minimal A m3, Minimal A m5, Minimal Score m1, Minimal Score m5, Fast Death, 2P rings, Fast Life
SA(DX) ~ Minimal A, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life
SH ~ Minimal Swaps, Minimal Score, Fast Death, Fast Life, 2P Rings
SSR ~ Minimal Score
Riders ~ Gear Challenge
Explanations:
Minimal A - Press "A" as little as possible, and get as fast of time as possible. An amount takes priority over speed. If we can't enable a double chart, we will have to sacrifice time and just make this similar to minimal score. And trust me, this isn't as easy it sounds...for instance, most people wouldn't think Sky Rail m2 would be able to done without pressing A in under a minute.
Minimal Score - Get as low of score as you can, you are not allowed to die in your run.
Fast Death: DIE as fast as you can. Time ends when the timer stops.
Fast Life: Get a 1-up as fast as you can. You must immediately pause afterwards, but it only counts if your life counter goes up...otherwise you will have to unpause and pause again. Round your time down to the nearest second. In SA2, you must use m1. I explain it a bit better in the SA2 challenge topic, but I'm too lazy to check what that says <_<.
2P Rings: Get as much rings as you can in 2P mode of SA2 and SH. Your partner may not do anything, and Handicap must be turned off. Time may be on or off by your choice.
Minimal Swaps: In SH, beat the level changing partners as little as you can while aiming for the fastest time as possible.
Gear Challenge: Beat the track and aim for the best time possible either for Best Lap or Total Time only using the specified gear.
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Oh and I think I have a solution to the problem I addressed: You are not allowed to die in your run for Minimal Swaps, as that seems reasonable (plus you used it for Minimal Score as well).
edit:
To save people some typing, here are some charts you can copy and past ife you want to record your stats here:
TEAM SONIC:
Seaside Hill
Ocean Palace
Grand Metropolis
Power Plant
Casino Park
BINGO Highway
Rail Canyon
Bullet Station
Frog Forest
Lost Jungle
Hang Castle
Mystic Mansion
Egg Fleet
Final Fortress
TEAM DARK:
Seaside Hill
Ocean Palace
Grand Metropolis
Power Plant
Casino Park
BINGO Highway
Rail Canyon
Bullet Station
Frog Forest
Lost Jungle
Hang Castle
Mystic Mansion
Egg Fleet
Final Fortress
TEAM ROSE:
Seaside Hill
Ocean Palace
Grand Metropolis
Power Plant
Casino Park
BINGO Highway
Rail Canyon
Bullet Station
Frog Forest
Lost Jungle
Hang Castle
Mystic Mansion
Egg Fleet
Final Fortress
TEAM CHAOTIX:
Seaside Hill
Ocean Palace
Grand Metropolis
Power Plant
Casino Park
BINGO Highway
Rail Canyon
Bullet Station
Frog Forest
Lost Jungle
Hang Castle
Mystic Mansion
Egg Fleet
Final Fortress
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And I don't know how you didn't use any swaps in Seaside/Dark. You probably used checkpoints.
Nope, I didn't use any checkpoints nor any swapping. I'll try a lot more levels tonight (after I'm done planning my Spyro 2 speedrun).
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Sweet! Maybe I'll give it a go again.
Next time, be sure to record your time. I'm interested to learn of the stats you get. :)
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I hope it's not too late to submit. Anyways:
SA2 Fast Death(just one)
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Final Rush=0:05:65
It was hard to write down the mini sec. =)
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They're very serious, mike. :( The only thing I'd honestly be interested in is default equipment for Riders only because I hate the High Booster so fucking much. :/
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^ EXACTLY! That's why I thought of it. It's perfect as MANY have expressed similar sentiments.
edit:
Conker, it won't be "too late". This sub-site idea is still in the development stages.
LK64, you're right, I cleared Dark/Seaside w/o swaps. I beat it in 4:25:64.
Other stats - Heroes:
2P Rings -
Seaside Hill: 301
Grand Metropolis: 133
Egg Treat: 256 (Don't think there's a "max", per se)
Rail Canyon: 176
Frog Forest: 413
1-Up -
Casino/Sonic: 2:00 1:34
BINGO/S: 1:03
Power/Chaotix: 1:25 1:08
Ocean/C: 0:54
QUESTION: Are we doing BINGO Highway in Action Race for 2P Rings? I don't think we should do Pinball Match in Ring Race but what about BH?
Other stats - SA2B
2P Rings:
Radical Highway: 762! (Can't believe this is STILL not the max)
Metal Harbor: 155 (Not the max either.)
Death:
Aquatic Mine: 6.09 5.82
Green Hill: 1.64 (Got this twice so maybe it's the max)
NOTE: I'd like to help make rough charts for early divisions.
Re: Riders divisions
I'm standing by these:
(1) Default
(2) The Crazy
MAYBE: Trap Gear <- not too sure: you can't boost with this one so that's another challenge in itself but you can execute unlimited tornadoes - those tornadoes can be used to go faster
I'm going to experiment with more and see if they should be suggested/discussed.
EDIT:
Charts made for:
* Sonic Heroes Challenges
EDIT: * Sonic Adventure (DX) Challenges
IDEA: I think maybe just the Default Gear will suffice for Riders gear challenge... Unless there are "any objections"? Unless maybe we could have sub-divisions for SPEED, POWER, and FLIGHT? Should we do the Ring challenge?
I need to know as I'm trying to develop charts ATM. Also, can someone grab me a list of all the stages in SA2(B)? I don't feel like doing that right now - that would help.
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Fastest Death
Seaside Hill
Sonic - 8.58
Dark - 9.04
Rose - 4.71
Chaotix - 3.73
Ocean Palace
Sonic - 7.71
Dark - 7.71
Rose - 7.16
Chaotix - 4.09
Grand Metropolis
Sonic - 10.66
Dark - 10.66
Rose - 12.93
Chaotix - 3.56
Power Plant
Sonic - 6.66
Dark - 3.76
Rose - 4.44
Chaotix - 5.44
Just some more Fastest Death times of mine. I have videos of all these times.
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As you can see by comparing mine and LK64's stats, the max's for Ocean Palace, Grand Metropolis for Team's Sonic and Dark can be easily maxed.
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Im almost tempted to go beat you both, but its Heroes and I cant be arsed.
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Lol. Why not? Just got for it. What've you got to lose anyway...
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Ks8 in competition central there is a topic for SA2 stuff, unless the subsite goes up take the SA2 challenges to there.
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Lol. Why not? Just got for it. What've you got to lose anyway...
The time I could be spending staring at my javascript crap trying to make it work <_<
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Fastest Death
Ocean Palace
Sonic - 7.71
Dark - 7.71
Chaotix - 4.09
Grand Metropolis
Sonic - 10.66
Dark - 10.66
Power Plant
Dark - 3.76
These are the records I believe are maxed. On Sonic/Dark's Grand Metropolis, you have to die on the first life or you'll get 10.69 for doing the same exact thing after restarting.
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^ Yeah, see. On SOME levels, the max is easy to obtain.
And RR, I know. I've gone to that topic a few times here and there but since I dropped out of the race for SA2 rankings, I don't check there anymore. But if this sub-site does come through, it'll renew my interest in the game (although, admittedly, Green Hill has already done that well).