The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Rules Revisions => Topic started by: yse on December 04, 2006, 05:09:29 am
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Look, we all know it needs doing. Charts (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/bosses/egg_hawk/dark) like (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/bosses/robot_storm/dark) this (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/bosses/metal_madness/sonic) have to be made a thing of the past.
If we're making a freestyle division, it needs to be known which levels should be included in it. Anyone can add/remove from this list in future posts - this is my best estimation of what needs to happen:
TIMES
Sonic - Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Dark - all
Rose - Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Chaotix - Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
EXTRA
Dark - all
Rose - same as times
Chaotix - same as times, plus Ocean Palace and Hang Castle
BOSSES
All Robot Carnivals/Storms
Dark EH, EA, EE - how beneficial is this for the other teams? I think Egg Albatross in particular benefits from TBG in all teams
Metal Madness
RINGS
Chaotix - I'm taking suggestions here. People are saying we should allow TBG here to avoid the horribly slow process of building up a TB manually - I vote against this as it affects scores. Opinions?
SCORES
Put simply, straight ban on TBG here is my opinion. It gets too fiddly otherwise.
At this stage people should nominate levels in which they used TBG, and when submissions go up change them back or incur Rolken's wrath.
My list is: (from an earlier topic)
TIMES
PP - Chaotix
EXTRA
PP - Chaotix again. As you can see I never did these to any great level heh.
BOSSES
Egg Hawk - Dark
Egg Albatross - All
Egg Emperor - Dark
Metal Madness
But I'll fix them up when submissions are re-enabled, so by then it won't matter. I completed the whole game again just for this purpose. :D
EDIT: note that on the Dark bosses in particular, the line between non-TBG and TBG is very, very obvious. Anybody who doesn't comply/doesn't come here anymore can just have their times removed as far as I'm concerned.
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RULING: 26/1/07 by yse
All stats which are known to have used TBG have been suspended. Point out any I may have missed and we can request an explanation or remove the offending stats.
TBG will be permitted for ring counts, but any scores or times obtained on the same run are void. (ProTip: if you think you're going too well, hang around at the goal ring for a while)
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Players/stats being challenged
Onryou (http://www.soniccenter.org/members/onryou/sonic_heroes)
videogamemaster777 (http://www.soniccenter.org/members/videogamemaster777/sonic_heroes)
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TIMES
Sonic - Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Dark - all
Rose - Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Chaotix - Power Plant, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, Final Fortress
Only 2 I have a problem with is the 2 for Team Rose. To be honest, I haven't found any good use for TBG on those 2 levels with Team Rose. Most people should have their TB gauge full "normally" way before the 2 areas where a TB would be beneficial (the first hammer robot on FF can be easily defeated without TB).
EXTRA
Dark - all
Rose - same as times
Chaotix - same as times
Again, Rose.
BOSSES
All Robot Carnivals/Storms
Dark EH, EA, EE - how beneficial is this for the other teams? I think Egg Albatross in particular benefits from TBG in all teams
Metal Madness
No objections yet.
RINGS
Chaotix - I'm taking suggestions here. People are saying we should allow TBG here to avoid the horribly slow process of building up a TB manually - I vote against this as it affects scores. Opinions?
Now there's the problem. I think there's no way to know if a stat for Chaotix rings was TBGed or not (outside video). I say allow TBG here.
SCORES
Put simply, straight ban on TBG here is my opinion. It gets too fiddly otherwise.
I'm not big on SAing anything other than Shadow, so I can't say anything about this one.
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Ok, this is probably going to be another failed topic, but I'll post in it anywayz.
For Egg Fleet, I don't see how it's beneficial for times, except you mean only to use it at the E-1000 robots. Even then, you should already have a TB ready, like Groudon said. I agree on everything else though. It really shouldn't matter what stages they effect to great detail, effecting Dark so much and giving unlimited invulunerablities/speedups/levelups with Rose is enough for straight up banning.
Yes, I agree on Extra.
For bosses, I'm not too sure. I'm sure PsyBorg whored TBG for all of his records. I don't know about Egg Hawk though since his records are close to mine and I didn't use it. For Egg Hawk and Emperor it's not smart to use TBG, Albatross is though.
Banning TBG from Chaotix rings is stupid to be honest. All it does is makes the levels so much more long and annoying. Doing ring runs won't give you a good score, I can assure you. Speed and robot death are key and TB makes chains kills shorter.
For Scores, yes TBG can be benificial for some situations. Taking down hammer robots or E-1000s and to ensure some chains.
TBG can make things better and worse, it's all about planning, but still, it should be banned. Enough already. ;/
Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.
I'm still not too sure on what I TBGed, I'm sure it was only for some Dark bosses (the ones that have comments on them) and I think one of the Robot Waves with Rose, I really have to try out some of the bosses again and see if I can get the same time without TBG, but I'm sick and tired of playing Heroes... ;/
About just having times removed just because they don't come here is like the only reason why I say Freestyle even though it's pretty much a waste.
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-That list is pretty good. I think you should add Ocean Palace and Hang Castle to the Extra Chaotix missions section, since stealth missions probably could benefit from TBG.
-As far as my times go, here's what I used it on. (I think I mentioned these before though.)
Seaside Hill: Both Dark missions.
Ocean Palace: Both Dark missions.
Grand Metropolis: Both Dark missions.
Egg Hawk: Dark
Egg Albatross: Sonic, Dark
Robot Carnival: Dark
Robot Storm: Dark
Egg Emperor: Dark (My 47 second time is legit.)
Metal Madness.
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Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.
My opinion, it has to be all or nothing. Because quite frankly, TBG could, depending on the number of enemies in a level and how many appear onscreen at a time, completely throw away ring competition for Chaotix. In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/
Albeit there's still room to manipulate parts without TBG, and depending on the number of enemies and the number of rings you get from them you could get a decent charge on your next TB quite quickly.
That said, I've never knowingly used TBG, except maybe on Egg Emperor Sonic, but I mash square on that (and the other teams) while in the air when he's standing still. (I have near or max level Tails anyways, which is more effective for me.) But Not really anywhere else.
Also, I believe the point was made that TBG on some dark levels is actually slower at points. (If I recall, yoshifan's Grand Metropolis vid uses no TBG.)
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Long story short, ban TBG from all divisions except Rings-Chaotix.
My opinion, it has to be all or nothing. Because quite frankly, TBG could, depending on the number of enemies in a level and how many appear onscreen at a time, completely throw away ring competition for Chaotix. In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/
Albeit there's still room to manipulate parts without TBG, and depending on the number of enemies and the number of rings you get from them you could get a decent charge on your next TB quite quickly.
That said, I've never knowingly used TBG, except maybe on Egg Emperor Sonic, but I mash square on that (and the other teams) while in the air when he's standing still. (I have near or max level Tails anyways, which is more effective for me.) But Not really anywhere else.
Also, I believe the point was made that TBG on some dark levels is actually slower at points. (If I recall, yoshifan's Grand Metropolis vid uses no TBG.)
lolwut Spinny? :X Rings Chaotix is still going to be on luck regardless if TBG is allowed, now if you want to ban TB, then that's a different story. The equivalent of a TBG Chaotix-Rings level is a 20+ minute non-TBG level. It's just a waste of time. Either you use TBG or you just sit there using Flight formation's Thundershoot to build up your gauge. Rings Chaotix will always be on luck, only until TB is banned from Rings Chaotix, which isn't going to happen since we do keep track of Knux/ Rouge M1s. Allowing TBG for Rings Chaotix just makes things a lot less annoying, that's all.
Yes, that's true, that's true with or with out TBG, that's just using TB. I'm only talking about Rings Chaotix, nothing else.
No, I didn't mean on Dark stages, I'm sure that all Dark stages have the potential of being at it's max with the use of TBG, I meant for all other characters, in which TBG is only used as an enemy clearing attack. yoshi's GM record isn't the record for GM. magnum has it and he used TBG.
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Now that we're moving TBG to freestyle, I made a list of players who have used TBG.
smizzla - All stats have used TBG
videogamemaster777 - All Boss stats and Dark Times
Rayku - All Boss stats and Dark times
PsyBorg - Egg Albatross All, Robot Storm All
PsyMar - All Boss and Dark Times except Power Plant and Egg Hawk, unsure about Egg Emperor non-dark and FF Dark. FF Chaotix Extra.
Cybrax - Most Bosses, unsure about most stages.
Chao_Fan - All Dark Stages and Bosses, Mystic Mansion Sonic/Chaotix, and I think Final Fortress Sonic/Chaotix Extra
GravyTrain33 - All Dark Times and Bosses, unsure about this.
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Cool, TBG is being moved to Freestyle! YAY! Finally, I'll have a better chance at obtaining Times, Boss stats and other stuff here and there. :D
I mentioned this before but just to be clear, none of any of my stats have ever used TBG.
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-That list is pretty good. I think you should add Ocean Palace and Hang Castle to the Extra Chaotix missions section, since stealth missions probably could benefit from TBG.
How so? To the extent that you could wipe out an entire set of enemies before they see you? I suppose, I'll tentatively add them to the list.
Egg Emperor: Dark (My 47 second time is legit.)
Yeah, I know, I just got 49"88 last night. X)
In a sense, with TBG active, RAing Chaotix is more about luck than skill, which is why casino levels get tossed already. I wasn't really a fan of Chaotix rings anyways. :/
Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
Also thanks to eredani for the list - along with that, there should be a list of charts that have a lot of TBG'd stats like the three I mentioned. Generally it's boss charts. (see PsyBorg's times)
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How does TBG beneift Mystic Mansion (Sonic) asides from the obvious take out the giants with heavy armor? In regards to stealth missions, a TB has decent range. During a run of Metal Madness, I calculated the approximate range to be about 4-5 body lengths (assuming speed formation is used), more than enough range to take out an entire squad of enemies before they see you if you do it right.
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Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
I'd have to agree with this. Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.
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Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
I'd have to agree with this. Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.
You mean like Casino Park with Chaotix and Casino Park and Bingo Highway extra missions with Rose?
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How does TBG beneift Mystic Mansion (Sonic) asides from the obvious take out the giants with heavy armor?
It doesn't. That was the only reason I could see for its use - and well planned it shouldn't come into play, but you can never assume things like that.
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Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
I'd have to agree with this. Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.
You mean like Casino Park with Chaotix and Casino Park and Bingo Highway extra missions with Rose?
Yeah. A random ring container variable from using Team Blast for every last enemy in the Chaotix stages can cause some serious differences in final ring amounts from pure luck. I might make an estimate of just how much it can differ for a level, if I'm feeling bored.
Edit: I wasn't bored, but I was curious. I checked Seaside Hill and found 43 enemies. If you can get 5, 10, or 20 rings for each enemy, there is a potential 645-ring difference in this level alone from luck. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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you have to take some things into consideration when using TB. With Dark its commonplace because of time freeze (magnum has made this known due to his super low times on some dark stages). Also the fact that I have matched or done better when I didn't use TBG. That still doesn't mean it wont work all the time...like it was said, you have to plan it out.
from my experiences, with sonic its useless entirely. The only benefit they get is sonic using his light dash attack. on all of their stages, you can get a TB ready to go when you think it would be good, but most of the time is spent speeding though the stage and skipping stuff enitely which they tend to do because of lack of enemies. Rose is also self-explanatory with the powerups they get to ensure they get the most of their shorter stages (well from point A to the goal ring at least). Chaotix is a mixed bag, but MM, PP and FF are 3 prime spots for the TBG to actually succeed in their favor. This is just with time though as with scores it scores it takes some tweaks to what you did before.
also the fact that if you are going to use this move, that you know how to pull it off without messing up so much. from an empty guage it takes 3 full glitches to fill it up. doing this eliminates most of the wait it takes to get a full one when you need it espeically when a run isn't doing to well and you need one now but its taking too long to build up naturally.
My replacements for the TBG are these:
-finding a TB capsule or balloon. you'd be surprised where some are located and maybe those who RA a lot know where they are and can exploit them.
-using power characters for groups. magnum had made a note in another tbg topic that gaining tbg faster than normal was like combo attacks in MVC2 (Marvel vs Capcom 2). in this case, its better with a power character becaus ethey deal way more damage output than whats needed and those bits get transferred into the guage. other than that, using someone else would result in what Shadow The Hedgehog does. Each enemies has a certain point factor that goes towards either guage. The bigger the enemy, the more guage recovers.
-dealing with the situation. If I was to get thrown into a position that I had used TBG before, I would find another way...simple as that. Most of the time this works well especially when I goof off and stumble upon a shortcut or 2 (FF did this for me)
There is also an alternative that I didn't notice until I was doing FF with chaotix. you can also build your guage up by collecting rings which everyone knows, but did anyone know that when you get hurt and lose all but 20 rings, those rings gained back also get put into the guage? Its slower than using TBG, but it could be just as cheap as long as you have rings.
here's also a list to what actions make your guage go up:
-sliding/rocket accelling
-combo attacks from power characters or firing your teammates at an enemy
-thundershooting
-killing enemies
-rings/ring balloons (your own even)
-rainbow trick rings (since they do give you rings)
-TB capsules
-flight panels (hitting the blue area near the bullseye grants you a TB...somewhat tricky to pull off consistantly)
I think thats it. also a note, all but 1 boss time from me used TBG and I do remember what it was. everything now has not used it.
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-Indeed, if you want to see a really good examples of the MVC2 analogy I gave, I suggest playing as Strider (he builds the gauge really fast) with Dr. Doom set to anti air (the one where he throws debris at you) assist type. It will seem like I'm going off topic, but its relevant to what SJ mentioned about comboes and the TB gauge. Go to training mode, set the options so the opponent always blocks, set the gauge options so it doesn't infinately regenerate. Use the super move where he gets those orbiting drones that fire when you button mash. Engage the Dr. Doom assist, teleport to the opponent's posistion, button mash (quick punch, quick kick, fierce punch for a quick combo), assist, dash, button mash, rinse, lather, repeat. Not only does this show how to build a gauge super quick, its also the infamous Strider lock strategy thats well known in MVC2.
-Now then. Play Sonic Heroes, select Team Dark, and get Omega to max level. Find somewhere with at least 3 guys with rock shields. Use the third hit of Omega's combo (the one with all the missiles). Each explosion should hit several guys at once. These blocked hits (and the destroyed enemies along with it) shoul build the TB gauge like crazy. It works on the same principle that the Strider example I mentioned above does.
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That's perfectly legitimate, you're not suggesting banning that too are you?
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Im guessing he ws just suggesting that people can still get around a ban of TBG or something
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The point of my last post was to do something I've always wanted to do, take a page out of SM's book and do an informative lecture on gameplay mechanics. The debate over the TBG and the bringing up of the MVC2 comment brought a perfect time for a lecture. I used both examples (I use the power formation "chipping damage technique" all the time since its cool) to demonstrate a similar game play mechanic in use.
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I use this technique in my Mystic Mansion run with dark and you'll see it when SM gets my vids up. Just using Omega lvl 3 against 4 robots built it up from nothing to full with one attack.
Also magnum, how long have you been playing MVC2? I haven't played it in a while myself mainly because of just being me (on the PS2 version) or no arcade machines around where I live anymore.
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I use this technique in my Mystic Mansion run with dark and you'll see it when SM gets my vids up. Just using Omega lvl 3 against 4 robots built it up from nothing to full with one attack.
Also magnum, how long have you been playing MVC2? I haven't played it in a while myself mainly because of just being me (on the PS2 version) or no arcade machines around where I live anymore.
-It will be interesting to see the kind of stuff that goes on in those videos. I've checked erendai's list and I'd say that its at least 95% correct.
-I've been playing MVC2 for about 4 years (one of the first games I got for the Dream Cast, played from 2001-2004). I stopped playing after I transferred from Moorpark College to CSUCI. That game was all the rage there. I believe there is an X-Box version of MVC2 with X-Box live support.
-Any ways, while this issue gets settled, I've got a lot of stuff to do, i.e. prepare for finals, get all the S ranks in Sonic 06, progress some more in Disgaea 2, and a bunch of other stuff.
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Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
I'd have to agree with this. Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.
Tell me about it. If I had to choose a competition on the site that I hate the most/would scrap, I really dislike Chaotix Ring missions! It's so random and so unfair, to me. It's probably the only thing that's keeping me from obtaining 1st Rank on Rings for Heroes, I believe.
But regarding this, I also agree. Forget the Chaotix rings.
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As I said before, if one says to forget Chaotix rings, they're pretty much saying forget Chaotix normal and extra missions for Casino Park. All of them are equally random IMO.
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^^ They are - all of them.
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I don't know about some other levels but I really don't think it should be allowed for Dark. The only skill required is good TBG skills. I don't think I'd mind anything else, though, because you wouldn't need it as much. I don't mind Chaotix rings but I sure hate extra for Casino Park >:P
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I sure hate extra for Casino Park >:P
Due to the randomness of the slots, right?
Which proves my point that, if you want to remove something because of randomness, you have to remove everything that deals with the same type of randomness (ring randomness occurs in slots, Chaotix TB, and ? boxes and capsules in other Sonic games).
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Now here's an idea. Scrap Chaotix rings entirely!
I'd have to agree with this. Chaotix rings is somewhat very random to begin with.
Tell me about it. If I had to choose a competition on the site that I hate the most/would scrap, I really dislike Chaotix Ring missions! It's so random and so unfair, to me. It's probably the only thing that's keeping me from obtaining 1st Rank on Rings for Heroes, I believe.
But regarding this, I also agree. Forget the Chaotix rings.
So your reason is "damn, I'm not good at it, so get rid of it!!!!"? Not good enough reason.
If all randomness were to be removed from the site, like I said, Knux/ Rouge SA2B Mission 1 times would have to be removed. All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go. There's still no good of a reason to get rid of it. I've already brought randomness up a while ago and I'm pretty sure I got "it's vaild competition" as my answer.
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If all randomness were to be removed from the site, like I said, Knux/ Rouge SA2B Mission 1 times would have to be removed. All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go. There's still no good of a reason to get rid of it. I've already brought randomness up a while ago and I'm pretty sure I got "it's vaild competition" as my answer.
My argument: Emerald Hunting mission luck can be overcome with patience, and when you finally get what you need, it still takes skill to get the fastest collection time. All normal ? ring containers are (to the extent of my knowledge) 10 or less per level, becoming a fairly controlled variable, allowing for general improvement with patience, and also not heavily affecting the final outcome in scores and RA's in the games, and someone may beat the randomization with skill.
However, a random variable for every last enemy in the entire level can easily result in 30+ (43 in my test of Seaside Hill) random variables in addition to all normal random variables, creating a very, very large difference from randomizing factors. In Seaside Hill, you can potentially get 860 rings (possibly more) without grabbing a single item or ring in the entire level. More enemies appear in later levels, allowing for a total 999 max-out without needing to do anything but get lucky. That seems more like something that should be taken into consideration compared to the others. The other situations register as "it's valid competition" in my mind, just as you were told.
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All of SADX ring/ score attacking would have to go.
Same would go with Rush, since there's at least 1 ? ring container on every level. What you get from them is different than in SA(DX) (1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 40 in SA[DX], 1, 5, 10, 20, 50 [IIRC] in Rush), but it's the same concept.
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if randomness goes...down goes most bosses.
then again I'm no expert on bosses, but to me most of them are random with not a lot of manipulation.
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STAY ON TOPIC PEOPLE.
If you've ever wondered why nothing gets done with this issue, now you know.
Okay regarding Chaotix rings. I would prefer if people actually built up their team blast meter normally, but since Thunder Shoot among other things builds up the meter even if it doesn't hit anything, that's not going to happen. (To be honest this is what I was more concerned about when I said to scrap Chaotix rings, not the randomness, so all the BS regarding "lol remove all randomness from the site" doesn't apply.)
So we're left with the decision to make people build it up slowly or quickly. Both give the same result rings-wise, but my concern here is, if TBG is allowed it'll end up leaking into the score charts and we don't need to see that. That was why I proposed the removal of the entire rings chart. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RANDOM FACTOR.
Also I find this highly apt.
[01:08:41] <Rolken> so the argument boils down to
[01:09:02] <Rolken> "we're talking about tbg. one aspect of tbg happens to be random. all this other stuff is also random. IF YOU BAN TBG YOU MUST BAN RANDOMNESS"
Blame SBW for making the connection. :/
*flees from the inevitable barrage of weaponry*
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In regards to TBG for rings and Chaotix scores, I'll have to disagree. Really meticulous RAing and good time bonuses are usually incompatible with each other. The only level where I could see a potential problem is in Final Fortress (Chaotix). Then again, the enemies there are worth big points anyway, so even with your time bonus at 0, you can expect a score of at least 83000+ if you take out every enemy in optimal comboes.
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Nobody said you had to meticulously RA to get on the ring charts...
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What.
Okay not once in my only post in this topic (before this post, obviously) did I mention the word "random."
I mentioned luck, because I do believe the number of rings given by each enemy is randomly determined from among 5/10/20. (I haven't played Heroes, let alone as Chaotix, in a while, so don't take my word on that.)
I may have been misconstrued, as all I was saying is that it's fairly easy, given a lot of enemies in an area and having a TB ready, to almost fully charge a TB by using the rings from that TB. (This naturally only happens with Chaotix, as the other teams' gauges slowly deplete over the effect of their TB.) Anyways, I'm leaning towards the off-topicness.
/me launches air strike against mike. A10 Warthogs cover the general area with napalm.
</originalcommand&conquerreference>
Anyways, as to TBG's effect: TBG makes what I said happen quicker, and it makes up for the rings that don't fully fill the gauge.
I didn't really say much about score charts, but I just thought of how bad it can get with Sonic:
Step 1: TBG
Step 2: Make sure you're on Sonic, TB.
Step 3: Mash the jump/attack combo near more enemies.
Step 4: Repeat.
Step 5: ...
Step 6: PROFIT!
...Yeah, that's probably all the input I give because as I said I don't really TBG.
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Spinny, it's on luck because it's random... You even said it yourself, it's the randomness that determines wheither you get 5/ 10/ 20 Rings.
On the account that it's too "easy", no matter what, if you are RAing a Chaotix stage, you will use TB on every enemy in the stage, if you don't, you won't get the record. Simple as that. Sure you'll get lingering Rings from some enemies until the gauge is depleted, but it's the same as using a TB on it. Nothing changes.
TBG doesn't make up for anything but quickness. It makes stages a lot more tolerable. Why play a 30+ Chaotix stage and ring run it and in the end find out you are like 100 Rings off the record? It's not fun, there's no skill at all so why not make something that's grueling a little be better?
Mike, on the account of it leaking to other things, well, unfortunately we aren't able to see everyone play. People may use TBG, wheither it's banned or not just to get on the rankings (but not necessarily get the record). Rule breaking it evident to some people, I know you want to minimize it as much as possible, but you have to understand, Chaotix rings is ridiculous. :/
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BLETHARG.
Under maiku's request, here are all the stages I used TBG on:
All dark stages
All robot swarm bosses (includes all of them)
Egg Albatross (Sonic)
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Bear this in mind when deleting times:
According to the forum and a heap of Metal Madness submissions, TBG was first revealed to TSC on the 14th of February, 2004. It therefore goes without saying that times before this are unaffected by the glitch.
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http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/times/seaside_hill/dark <- Obviously TBG'd.
Just a reminder. ;)
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ks8: You forget This one (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/times/grand_metropolis/dark)?
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-I thought I revealed those ones as being influenced by TBG. Oh well, removing them will be on my "to do list".
Edit: I just realized something. Since the primary reason we're talking about banning the TBG is because of its broken effects with Team Dark's TB effect (i.e. you can freeze the clock for practically most of the level by spamming TBG), does it set the precedent for banning the use of glitches that achieve the same net effect? (Natural effects that manipulate the clock would not be affected, only glitches that do so would be effected.)
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There's a marked difference between a glitch at a specific point in one level (and LB2K isn't even a glitch) versus a glitch which can be applied quite literally anywhere in the game.
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Anyone else but me sick of smizzla's stats? They're obviously TBG'd and they [he/she] don't seem to be doing anything about any of them. Can we do something about that?
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You've had enough time. Now that I have the power, I'm deleting all TBG'd stats.
EDIT: I think I've got them all. Somebody point me or someone else towards any I may have missed. If I've knocked one of your times out, replace it with one that's legit. You know the rules.
EDIT2: I'm also keen to see a ruling on the use of TBG for Chaotix rings. Opinions to be put forth here.
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Agh, you bastard mike, why'd you have to do this, you're making it really hard for me to keep my promise and stay away from Heroes. D:
Just keep TBG banned for divisions that are affected by times. This applies for Times, Bosses, Extra and Scores; unaffected by Rings. You will never know when someone TBG'd Rings or not; you can implement the ruling and you'll never be able to tell if a person TBG'd or not, honestly, it doesn't even matter if they did. Forcing vids is even more stupid since no one would want to sit down and watch 30 minutes Chaotix ring runs, nor actually tape them. Honestly Mike, banning TBG from Chaotix rings is just ludicrious. If you need a proper rule, just use this or something similar:
TBG, also known as the Team Blast Glitch, is banned from all competition in Sonic Heroes that is affected by Times (including the Time stat as well as the Time Bonus). The affected divisions are Times, Extra, Bosses and Scores. Any record acheived from using TBG will be void except for Rings.
Poor wording, but you can get the jist.
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It's simple. Putting the ban on TBG for Chaotix rings is lame, since it just takes longer to finish the level with all the thundershooting that needs to be done.
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Onryou have also used TBG for several of his times, along with the boss ones. His Dark time total is strangely his best one, and I'm willing to bet that he used TBG for most of his Dark times. For a list: Times > Final Fortress > Dark 6:50:24, Mystic Mansion > Dark 5:29:93, Bullet Station > Dark 6:24:21, Extra > Ocean Palace > Dark 4:03:63. I'm a bit uncertain regarding which other times he have used TBG on, because he doesn't really have that many good stats to compare to.
Most of videogamemaster777's Dark times are much better than they should be compared to his Sonic times. For example his Bingo Highway Dark time is 5:31:98, which is 12 seconds faster than with Team Sonic even though it should be slower, and his Lost Jungle Dark is 50 seconds faster than with Sonic. I think it's safe to assume he used TBG for his times.
For Chaotix Rings it should be allowed to use TBG, as it isn't abusive if no advantage in stats is gained by using it. You can get the exact same Ring counts with or without TBG, and the only difference is in the amount of time that's spent in the stage, but the time/score result is irrelevant when Ring attacking. An exception to this is Final Fortress Chaotix, as the point total for comboing every enemy can exceed what you would normally get with time bonus, and Power Plant Dark, where the increased point total besides time bonus can also be larger. Using TBG while RAing those stages to finish faster and get more combos could give you a higher score than would otherwise be achievable even with a larger time bonus, and that score would obviously be invalid under the rules.
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Just throwing this idea out in the open: No Team Blast for Chaotix RA (not limiting to TBG).
It seems like that's what most people imply when they say no TBG in Chaotix rings. That way, there'd be no more issues with TBG or wasting time, Chaotix rings would stay, and the annoying team blast factor would be eliminated. If I remember correctly, there's nothing you actually need team blast in order to accomplish for any given level in the game (except in Metal Sonic's perfect form). I realize that would mean wiping out all current Chaotix ring stats, though, which I'm sure some would disagree with, but it seems like the best choice in the end...
What are your opinions on such an action?
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Bad idea. There is nothing wrong with using Team Blast for Chaotix Rings. The only issue is that the rings you get are random. However, if this is the reason for removal, then SADX and SAdv1 and 2 would have to go due to the ? boxes. The only reason Mike feels that TBG should be banned from Chaotix Rings is for consistancey and the fact that TBG might leak into other stats. Put up the rule I said in my last post (and perhaps on the Sonic Heroes Submissions screen) and problem solved.
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Okay, ruling amended. TBG is permitted for rings only.
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http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_heroes/extra/final_fortress/chaotix <- JB apparently has used TBG. It's possible other stats of his has used TBG.
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As of this post James Bertolli is on notice. I've deleted the stat in question and others may follow.
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I say "All random Rings outside Target Switches and '?' Monitors DON'T count". FAIR.
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there are no random ring counts besides with what you do with Chaotix's TB.
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-That list is pretty good. I think you should add Ocean Palace and Hang Castle to the Extra Chaotix missions section, since stealth missions probably could benefit from TBG.
-As far as my times go, here's what I used it on. (I think I mentioned these before though.)
Seaside Hill: Both Dark missions.
Ocean Palace: Both Dark missions.
Grand Metropolis: Both Dark missions.
Egg Hawk: Dark
Egg Albatross: Sonic, Dark
Robot Carnival: Dark
Robot Storm: Dark
Egg Emperor: Dark (My 47 second time is legit.)
Metal Madness.
Yeah!Pretty is a good list,eh?
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if theres anything weshould have TBG for, its the max ring missions. anything where time and score are not what you are aiming for. espicially the team chaotix ones.
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« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2007, 03:07:13 PM »
FEBRUARY 1 2007.
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« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2007, 03:07:13 PM »
FEBRUARY 1 2007.
lol
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Not to mention TBG is allowed for chaotix rings.
Though I do agree it should be allowed for sonic/dark/rose rings, but iirc there is a different NOT AGES OLD topic for that.
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Oh fred. This isn't just a bump, this is taking a longtime wound and ripping it open again. Do you have ANY IDEA how long this was argued about?
Sigh.
And, RR, it's not allowed for most things because it (as a glitch) makes the game easier. Why is it allowed for Chaotix rings? Because otherwise, players trying to hit a ring record would most definitely SIT THERE AND CHARGE UP THE TEAM BLAST FOR EVERY SINGLE ENEMY. That's just plain nonsense. So it's allowed for that reason only. At least, that's what I recall the ruling being.
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Fred? You know this guy?
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I know this guy named Fred, one of his favorite phrases is "I am God". Really. He jokes about it a lot. So, I figured, I shouldn't use the Lord's name in vain (to those of you who know the 10 Commandments), so I'll just use Fred's name in vain. But no, "fred" doesn't refer to anyone in particular. Read it as "heck" or "darn". Or something worse, if you insist.
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And, RR, it's not allowed for most things because it (as a glitch) makes the game easier. Why is it allowed for Chaotix rings? Because otherwise, players trying to hit a ring record would most definitely SIT THERE AND CHARGE UP THE TEAM BLAST FOR EVERY SINGLE ENEMY. That's just plain nonsense. So it's allowed for that reason only. At least, that's what I recall the ruling being.
Well, I know in my few RAs, I sit there and charge up team blast for any enemy I'll risk taking damage on. I have infinite time, so I play it safe.