The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Rules Revisions => Topic started by: SadisticMystic on November 11, 2006, 11:53:14 pm
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Ever since the beginning of the site, it's been known that the switches in E-102 Hot Shelter give +1 second, and you can hit them as many times as you want. This was used to give several times in the 99-minute range, and everything went along smoothly.
Then Marth discovered a way to break through the walls of the boss room after time has been stopped entering that room, but before you touch down and actually trigger the boss fight. It only worked on GameCube, though, allowing those players to get a few seconds higher. Again, no uproar was raised about this.
On February 20 of this year, I noticed a problem with this level. On Dreamcast, you can't stop the clock to freely build up time, but the timer isn't capped to 99 minutes either. Minutes is a signed variable for some reason (like most of SA seems to be), so you can build the timer up to a maximum of 127:59. That's a version difference of 28 minutes.
The big problem: Nowhere does that time get displayed in full. I used the higher timer cap to obtain a time of 118:14.11, but the in-game screen displayed 99:59.99, the level complete screen displayed 99:14.11, and the level select screen shows 18:14.11. There's nothing that can be used to display the full 118 minutes. Furthermore, it would require a TSC coding change in order to enter times of 100 minutes or more.
I briefly brought up this problem, but it was ignored. Now there's been plenty more playing around in E-102 Hot Shelter, and the discussion has come back. Should times up to the 127-minute range be allowed, even though there would be no way to prove such a time? Psyknux took advantage of the increased timer cap and used it to get something that does display properly, 99:58.54, but other than the final times, 99:58 and 118:14 are done in the same way. Should that 99:58.54 be submittable? Should the legality be determined not by the tactics used, but the way the game displays your time? If you used the trick to get, say, 100:15, it would display on the level select screen as 00:15. But the presence of an A emblem would make it clear that your best time couldn't possibly be just 15 seconds. For Hot Shelter, could this be used to raise the limit for unambiguously identifiable times on Dreamcast to just under 102 minutes?
Does the whole scalping-switches-for-unlimited-time deal in Hot Shelter need to be itself examined (possibly thrown into a Freestyle division)?
Discuss your ideas here.
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RULING 11-14-2006 by Rolken
New rule: As Gamma, no switch may be shot more than once.
Times above 100min are only visible from the select screen and then only without the leading 1, rendering times impossible to prove and even more broken to compete in since you can't determine your time in-level.
Accordingly, all times above 90min have been suspended.
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That technique does seem like something which should fall under the freestyle division.
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I think it's a stupid way to time attack a level to be quite honest(anyone can hit the B button for an hour to hope to get lucky at the boss)
As magnum12 said, it takes the fun out of doing the stage properly, a freestyle divison or just banning it I think would be best off.
and I never noticed until now, but I have the best non-switch abuse time!
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In a way, it isn't as fun as TAing without switch abuse, but if this gets a ban or freestyle, anything that doesn't seem as fun as normal TAing could get the same things. *points to 3 (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/shadow_the_hedgehog/times/lethal_highway/hero) Shadow (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/shadow_the_hedgehog/times/air_fleet/dark) missions (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/shadow_the_hedgehog/times/iron_jungle/hero) and magnum's comment on this one (http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/shadow_the_hedgehog/times/iron_jungle/hero)* If anyone can do what ParaGod said, anyone can use the trick used for the Shadow times.
/me run
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I think it's not so much about sapping the fun out of things as just plain breaking the level.
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I don't know anything about Shadow sadly so I can't compare.
But think about it, your not allowed to abuse bells and slots for ring/score attacks, why should you be able to abuse a switch for time attacks? I assume they banned the ring abuse trick because it would lead to everyone having 999 rings which is boring, this is basically the same thing where everyone has 99 minutes and the seconds are only different because they got bad luck/or have bad aim during the boss fight, which doesn't prove anything about how good they are at the level itself.
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There are actually other tricks in SA(DX) that involve glitches like this that involve breaking the level, like Icecap. A glitch is used to stop the timer, since the game would be waiting for the avalance sequence to begin. After a long free-fall, you can run on the snowboarding part at your own pace and break the capsule with the time displayed when the time stopped (the best example of this is effy's vid). Banning this trick just because of it's level-breaking effects would probably do the same for everything else that involves some type of glitch as a huge shortcut (Casinopolis and Lost World, just to name a few)
edit: This was in response to Crowbar.
Also, everyone would have thousands of rings, when you think about it. The in-game count displays up to 999, but the total shown at the end goes even higher.
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I'm in favor of moving the switch scalping trick to free style. To be fair to the DC version (i.e. make it so its not at a 90+ minute disadvantage), I'm also in favor of moving the Hot Shelter time freeze glitch on the GC version to free style. I'll have to move my time since I did one cycle of the trick on my time (GC version). Oh well, I had a pretty strong time (4:30+ I think) without the glitch.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but I think I also had a sub 1:00 run for Lethal Highway (Hero) without that glitch.
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I'm in favor of moving the switch scalping trick to free style. To be fair to the DC version (i.e. make it so its not at a 90+ minute disadvantage), I'm also in favor of moving the Hot Shelter time freeze glitch on the GC version to free style. I'll have to move my time since I did one cycle of the trick on my time (GC version). Oh well, I had a pretty strong time (4:30+ I think) without the glitch.
Edit: Slightly off topic, but I think I also had a sub 1:00 run for Lethal Highway (Hero) without that glitch.
Um... freezing time gives more like a 10 or 15 minute advantage.
There's a limited number of checkpoints.
Anyway, the 100-minute trick could be moved to Freestyle, but what else would go there?
I say we should keep the time-freeze glitch, as it's not cheap, other than that it gives GC an advantage.
If it goes to Freestyle, it should get a separate chart from the 100-minute trick.
(Otherwise, there'd be no use for the time freeze.)
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Not like it would matter if it was freestyled.
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The time freeze glitch is ok, as it doesn'tcompletely kill the level and actually it takes more skill and more strategy to find the best way to get the most time you can from using the checkpoints, and not screwing up over a greater period of time.But the switch, as said is stupid, anyone can get a 99 minute time with it.
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As I understand it the way we decide whether something is used for time attack is if there is, after using whatever trick, still competition potential. This is why 8"25 m2s on SA2B are banned completely, for example, while DD languishes in freestyle.
Now I have two points to address, a time stop and a infinite time-scalp technique.
Time stop: Time stops have always been allowed in time attacks (Cannon's Core, Sand Ocean, Launch Base 2). No issue here. I might try it out soon though, I've never actually seen what this glitch does.
Infinite time-scalp: Even if you can get up to 99 (or 127) minutes, there is obviously still competition potential, as you can see by looking at the chart. Therefore a straight ban is not the answer.
The only reason I would consider banning this technique is because of the issues with the DC timing method. Even then, that's a game storage limitation and shouldn't impact rankings (see Final Egg rings for example). Note that the Marble Garden 1 ring ruling doesn't apply here because at some stage you do see the full time of 127 minutes.
Additionally, we can't ban things on a subjective basis ("this isn't fun to TA") because put simply, TAing is somewhat intended to be a frustrating exercise. This also leads me to suggest that it probably shouldn't be put in freestyle either (I don't particularly like the freestyle concept, but that's another story for another day).
Anyway, tracking for HS times is left with five options: (maxes under each regime in brackets)
1. Anything goes (GC 99min, DC 127min)
2. DC times should be recognisable from screenshot (GC 99, DC <102)
3. Neither version should be at a disadvantage (99)
4. No time scalping, time freeze allowed (GC 15?, DC 5?)
5. Time scalping and time freeze disallowed/moved to Freestyle (5)
Per my above statements, 5 is out of the question as time freeze is allowed by precedent.
Anybody who would prefer the disallowing of time scalping would therefore be in support of 4, which means they can't use the version disadvantage argument because GC has a huge one under that rule.
Pros: No more using two hours just to get near the top of one chart
Cons: Large (read: can't be caught up) version advantage to GC, revamp of charts, relies on subjective analysis of methods
Method 3, which appears to be the version we work under now, seems to work okay in practice but has a major flaw, which Psyknux recently exploited. If we simply limit the time that can be submitted to 100 minutes, then a player can go over 100 minutes and wait until 99'59"99 and throw the final shot at the boss. The only way to counterbalance this would be to suggest a "you can't at any stage go over 100 minutes in the level" rule... and congratulations, you've just created the most unworkable rule in the history of TSC. Change is needed.
Pros: Current system, has worked for three years, no real version difference
Cons: Abusable on DC, unworkable rule
Method 2 is similar enough to method 3 but additionally recognises that the version difference exists, while also ensuring that the time can later be proven. However, it's just as unworkable as the previous rule, as well as giving a version difference and is just plain silly.
Pros: Similar to current method, allows DC's additional method and can still be proven later on
Cons: Unworkable rule, version difference, not particularly intuitive
My preferred method is method 1. The only issues with it are proof and the character-breaking version difference. Proof is easy enough to organise, but the version difference is another matter. I think it's silly to impose a limit on DC for the sake of the GC players though.
Pros: Consistent with TSC's "if the game lets you do it, it's allowed" philosophy
Cons: Proof issues, unbeatable version difference (lucky Gamma doesn't count towards the total!)
So yeah. Debate over.
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Version fairness isn't an issue; there's plenty of runs that make use of tricks only available on one version. 1 and 4 seem the only viable options to me.
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1. The new rule has nothing to do with the real issue being the Dreamcast version not telling your time correctly.
2. People had been hitting switches more than once since the very beginning, and that wasn't banned until SM tried on Dreamcast. It makes no sense to ban it for both versions now when it wasn't banned in DX before.
3. The decision was decided way too quickly.
Best thing to do would probably be to accept 27:59 as 127:59 on the level select screen, because, it is. (Please tell me if it would actually show 17:59, cause that'd be a slight problem.)
In any case, fu.
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A time of 127:45 would show as 27:45 (omitting 1), not 17:45 (1 replacing the 10-minute digit). I discovered the increased timer cap while using E-102 in Casinopolis. After filling the vault, the switch counts as 2 lock-ons for some reason, so you fill up 3 times as fast, meaning I don't have to shoot for as long. I used it to get 100:46, and since that time is saved to Red Mountain, I now see a Red Mountain record of 00:46.
This ruling seems to be based on the precedent of not letting you do things that provide no limit to the amount of a resource you can get, other than the game not responding to additional resources beyond a certain limit (usually a string of 9s or a byte cap). It's this reason that Casinopolis Sonic rings and score aren't tracked at all, for instance. Things like the respawning blue rocks in Hill Top evade this ruling because the time needed for each cycle combined with the hard 10-minute limit means the actual score you can get has a limit far below the maximum the game stores, and even below what's available on a "standard" score run path. Yes, it's been done the old way for 3 years, but cracking down on an unlimited repeatable procedure is understandable. There have been grudges about the switch-scalping method scattered throughout the site's history.
This level could be seen a bit differently from the case of "going infinite," as the resources you build up are depleted at some point, even if (in one version) that's only for a few seconds at the boss fight. The fact that you have some control over how many of those seconds get depleted could bring up mike's "is there still something to compete over?" test. In this case, there is, even if it makes for the dullest "competition" anywhere on the site, possibly rivaled only by reentering Knuckles stages until you get the right layout.
A two-screenshot method of showing the time here, with level complete (99:14.11) combined with level select (18:14.11), could be workable for Dreamcast, even though it doesn't technically prove that the two stats shown are from the same run (but the odds of different runs are 1-in-3600).
One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park? If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it? This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.
In conclusion, Sonic Team needs a good whipping with a stick.
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One thought: Does the train ride cutscene make all items and enemies reappear, as with entering the castle multiple times in Amy's Twinkle Park? If so, does that continue to hold true even when the train ride is completed immediately by virtue of having already done it? This could mean that GameCube players would still have the potential to "go infinite" in this case.
Nah, they don't respawn.
Also, I just spent two hours trying to TA the stage according to the new rule (far longer than it would've take me the older way). I decided to give up as this was way too hard, I died all the time trying to aim the most enemies possible at different places.
Of course, that's just my own sucking, so here is a real reason why the rule ultimately fails: not shooting a switch more than once is the hardest thing you could ask us to do in time attacking this game. In all my attempt, I shot a certain switch more than once accidently, but tried to keep going just to see what time I would get (and failed).
And that was just in the first two times I was going around the level. Going from memory, there are approximately 9 checkpoints in the stage. Those familiar with Gamma time attacking know that you should restart after killing every enemy for each checkpoint, meaning you have to go around the level about ten times.
I'm sorry, but there is no way I'm ever going to try doing this without shooting a switch more than once, and I am sure most times, and probably all who used the checkpoints, have shot at least one switches more than once.
Here are the different ways it has accidently happened to me:
1. Second switch, shot while breaking the wall before it.
2. Third switch, shot almost every time because it is inside a block you need to blow up. Not shooting that switch is a real challenge in itself.
3. Fourth switch, shot at the same time I was shotting the dozen of Kikis around it.
Just shooting each of them once while going around the level once is easy, but trying not to do it again in the 30 minutes or so you TA the stage, and 10 times you go around it, is downright impossible. That, or you need to be a) a real expert, way better than me, with infinite patience, or b) pay extreme attention at the 2nd or 3rd switch, and not shoot Kikis to close to the 4th one, but what kind of newbie would do all that? Heck, even the idea of me trying that, after passing 2 hours testing the stage not caring if I accidently shot a switch twice repulses me.
I'll say it again, the decision was taken way too quickly, without enough input and especially testing. And also, out of all the decisions we could do, this was the worst one in my opinion.
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I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it. In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away. But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.
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I'm pretty sure there's a little leeway in the rule, like you can shoot a switch more than once, as long as you don't overdo it. In my 9:06 run, I shot the 3rd switch a couple times, since the crane didn't pick Gamma up right away. But I didn't shoot it like 5,000 times or anything.
I rest my case.
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About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss. I thought this was how you got 99 minutes(at the time I didn't know shooting the switch gave 1 second, and I thought you got 99 minutes by doing the glitch over and over)
Maybe it's possible to abuse more checkpoints for more time which would get old, I forget how the stage works nowadays because I only ever tried for like 10 minutes once I learned about the time stop glitch.
I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong- but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.
But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?
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About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss. I thought this was how you got 99 minutes(at the time I didn't know shooting the switch gave 1 second, and I thought you got 99 minutes by doing the glitch over and over)
Maybe it's possible to abuse more checkpoints for more time which would get old, I forget how the stage works nowadays because I only ever tried for like 10 minutes once I learned about the time stop glitch.
I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong- but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.
But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?
And allow multiple switch shooting then? This won't fix the problem at hand, but I still have to agree it'd be better than the travesty that was decided by Rolken and mike.
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About all this checkpoint abuse stuff, I don't remember EXACTLY how I got my 9:25 but I do recall going through the stage once, doing the time stop glitch and killing everything again and then killing the boss.
In my 9:06 run, I did something similar to that. I abused checkpoints quite a bit, but the last checkpoint was the biggest one. Activating that one then restarting from there resets everything in the level, making 9:00 possible (among other checkpoints abused).
I don't even think the switches besides the lift thing give any time, but I could be wrong- but if i'm not then it obviously wouldn't hurt a damn thing to shoot it again.
All switches give an extra second when shot, regardless of where it's located or what level it's on.
But now that I think about it, maybe just a legit playthrough with no time stop would have been the best choice?
Even then, it would still give results similar to what a timestop would provide, due to the switch shooting. It would be easier for 99:50 and up on DC, since DC players can't stop time there anyway. So they improvise. And the fact that the timer doesn't stop increasing when it hits 99:59 on DC.
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I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.
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Yes, but like I said, it wouldn't make too much of a difference besides the fact that the top times on GC could be a little over 98:xx.xx, whereas the DC times can reach 99:30 and up, since there's no timestop glitch for them anyway and the time accumulates past 99:59.
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I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.
That doesn't fix the issue of switches being way too easy to shoot more than once. And you'd just be adding another unnecessary rule.
(By the way, Groudon, I have no idea where you got the idea you could get high times such as these without switch abuse)
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Effy, even I don't have any idea as to exactly what I did. I abused several checkpoints, but perhaps locking-on to as many of the enemies on the train ride in one area could give you an edge. Unfortunately, I didn't record what I did, so I can't explain the method as accurate as I would if I vidded it (and if I did, I'd have surely shown you it). If I get higher, I'll upload footage.
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...I was talking about that post:
Yes, but like I said, it wouldn't make too much of a difference besides the fact that the top times on GC could be a little over 98:xx.xx, whereas the DC times can reach 99:30 and up, since there's no timestop glitch for them anyway and the time accumulates past 99:59.
You're saying you actually got 98:xx.xx without switch abuse?
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When I said that, I was responding to Paragod to saying he thinks the switch abuse would be allowed, but not the timestop.
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I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed
I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed
I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed
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just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well
just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well
just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well
/me run
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ahh wtf, here's how I stand on this so no one is confused.
-Either NO switch abuse and timestop
-NO switch abuse and no timestop
And F-Man, to be quite honest, why do you think it matters if you accidently hit the switch more than once just because the game glitched? Just hit it enough times to get through the level, and only that- it's not such a big deal as groudon has been trying to say.
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If you can hit it more than once, then why should you be stopped from doing it until your time is 99:59? It could also cause a difference between first and second places, as one would have hit the switch more than the other, having a few seconds advantage. People would eventually just intentially hit them more to get first place and there'd be no end.
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I guess you have a point there as I never thought of it that way; screw it then- i'm out of ideas, people who have to be cheap just to be ahead by 1 second really screw things up huh? :/
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I guess everyone misunderstood what I said, I never said the switch abuse should be allowed, just a suggestion of removing the timestop glitch as well, so the level would basically be played like any other Gamma level.
That doesn't fix the issue of switches being way too easy to shoot more than once. And you'd just be adding another unnecessary rule.
(By the way, Groudon, I have no idea where you got the idea you could get high times such as these without switch abuse)
I think the best way to handle the new ruling is a re-wording such as this one. "You may not shoot a switch more than three consequtive times." This accounts for accidental shots and nips switch scalping in the bud since you need to shoot the switches many times to get a decent benefit. I'm still also in favor of moving the time freeze to free style as ParaGod suggested.
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Timestop, shoot a switch 3 times, move on, shoot the next 3 times, move on, get to the boss chamber, escape again, go back to the first switch, shoot it 3 times, and GameCube still gets to 99 minutes, but in an even more annoyingly long way.
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Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.
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Timestop, shoot a switch 3 times, move on, shoot the next 3 times, move on, get to the boss chamber, escape again, go back to the first switch, shoot it 3 times, and GameCube still gets to 99 minutes, but in an even more annoyingly long way.
No one is gunna spend 97 hours getting that, and they'd eventually screw up and either die or drop in the gamma fight, but whatever if magnum's idea isn't good then sonicam properly worded what i've been trying to say all along. It should work, just like you can subtract dug up rings.
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Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.
That'd be an idea if I could actually be sure when it happens. Most of the time, I wasn't. There's not even a 1-second bonus that appears on screen (or if it does, it doesn't always appear), so you'd have to be checking the timer constantly.
EDIT: besides, not only is the rule awfully arbitrary (why forcing you do shoot switches no more than once? Why not 0, or 2, or 3, or any number at all? All are just as arbitrary as 1), but you guys are also trying to force more complicatedness into it. mike in the channel even suggested that you could shoot it more than once, but not more than once per in-game second (so if the time is frozen, you can't do it more than once). Not only could that be abused, but it is even more ridiculous. As I've said in the channel before, if you guys really are ready to make such rules for the stage, just delete the stage entirely. That'd be better and far less ridiculous than all the nonsense you're throwing at it.
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Sigh, this chaos is why I think my suggestion plus no time freeze glitch is the best way to go. I know my suggestion is harsh and breaks the "if the game allows it, use it" precedent, but based on the circumstances, its nessecary and does account for an issue F-Man talked about (accidental fire plus not being sure if you hit it or not). If we only deal with one issue (time freeze or switch scalping), the stage would still be busted because of the presence of the other exploit. I think part of the problem was that we didn't discuss this soon enough. We probably should have talked about it in February. (This issue is reminding me of how we delayed doing something about TBG and now its become hard to deal with.) Stuff like this is why I believe in the "sheathed sword" tactic of leadership.
-Definition: "Sheathed sword" is a strategy talked about in Sun Tzu's Art of War. This strategy says that the best way to deal with a problem (if possible) is to find and eliminate it early (often times behind the scenes) before it grows into a much bigger one down the road.
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Omg..., how about you just subtract one second from your time for everytime you shoot a switch more than once. Accidents happen, so correct them. If you are mashing B trying to shoot the switch and shoot it more than you are able to count, well, too bad and don't do that.
That'd be an idea if I could actually be sure when it happens. Most of the time, I wasn't. There's not even a 1-second bonus that appears on screen (or if it does, it doesn't always appear), so you'd have to be checking the timer constantly.
EDIT: besides, not only is the rule awfully arbitrary (why forcing you do shoot switches no more than once? Why not 0, or 2, or 3, or any number at all? All are just as arbitrary as 1), but you guys are also trying to force more complicatedness into it. mike in the channel even suggested that you could shoot it more than once, but not more than once per in-game second (so if the time is frozen, you can't do it more than once). Not only could that be abused, but it is even more ridiculous. As I've said in the channel before, if you guys really are ready to make such rules for the stage, just delete the stage entirely. That'd be better and far less ridiculous than all the nonsense you're throwing at it.
You don't really need the +1sec indicator to appear on the screen to know that you acquired one second added to your time. There is a certain jingle that indicates that a second has been added to the timer. If you hear more than one, then you hit it more than once and/or more than one second was added.
If this switch is really that much of a big deal, don't shoot it, step on it.
If everything still is a huge problem, then erase the stage like F-Man said because if Groudon says that the rules are "lenient" (which they aren't, one centisecond is very important to competitions, look at ParaGod's new Green Hill SA2B time vs. Cybrax's 3 year record, centiseconds matter), then I'm sure other people well/do feel the same way, then get rid of it.
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that gets me wondering, should I delete my Gamma/HS time simply because I wouldn't know if I shot a switch twice accidently or not?
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that gets me wondering, should I delete my Gamma/HS time simply because I wouldn't know if I shot a switch twice accidently or not?
Keep it. Why care about breaking a rule that is just so broken in itself?
In fact, I just resubmitted my real record.
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See the subject of my post? Someone should do the same thing to the thread.
There must be something better that can be done. The existing rule could void just about any time.
I can't be 100% sure I didn't hit a switch twice on my run months or years ago.
(You could say, "just do it again", but I don't know if I want to, or if I could match my old time.
Also, if making everyone redo their runs is no concern, then why not just ban shooting switches entirely?)
This still seems flawed, but I support a reasonable limit on shooting switches.
Maybe it could be three shots per life (instead of 3 consecutive shots).
Or, if there's absolutely nothing that will work, we can just leave it the way it was, with no rules.
And now I'll complain more about the rules:
Also, there should be some more general rules that forbid any kind of "unlimited (whatever)" tricks.
Why was the Gamma rule added so quickly, when other rules were suggested long ago?
If "unlimited" tricks are forbidden, just say they are. It's dumb to just shoot down scores as they come.
(No digging up rings. Okay, now you can't reuse a switch for rings. Oh, and now you can't
hit a bell after making it disappear. Oh, and you can't repeat Amy's Twinkle Park for more rings. Oh, and...)
And, what's going on with the level complete rule? The Sky Deck thing should be allowed if
the Hydrocity boss skip is allowed, and maybe even if the HC glitch isn't.
So if HC is allowed, so is SD.
If HC is not allowed, SD may be allowed.
If SD is allowed, HC may be allowed.
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I know thread necromancy is a sin, but the site was down :o. But this definitely is not resolved.
Anyway, can somebody tell me what was wrong with the old system? Everybody seemed perfectly content with the unlimited time system.. version differences are always allowed so I would say let everyone get a high time as possible on their system.
The problem with this new way is it's near impossible to not shoot a switch twice by accident while going for high time. It requires you don't shoot, which in the end knocks your time way, way down. It kills the whole idea of Gamma's levels.
There is NO SOLUTION for this problem, if it is one. It's just not going to happen. You can either let all times count, or delete the category. No other way will fix this.
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I first brought attention to this problem not because I thought there was anything wrong with the procedure, but because Sonic Adventure is dumb about displaying the end result. My 118:14.11 run is displayed as either 99:59.99, 99:14.11, or 18:14.11 depending on where you look, but nowhere can you see the full 118+ minutes. I was familiar enough with the system to know what my time was, but there's no real way to prove times above 100 minutes (with the possible hackish exception from 100-102 that I mentioned in the first post, and that requires a significant understanding of the game on the verifier's end). It would be just fine as a 28-minute version difference if only there were actually a way to see it unambiguously as such.
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And in one of those weird ways, bringing attention to something for a completely different reason can bring the entire method under scrutiny. I pointed out its similarity to ring and score scalping tricks already known and banned in this and other games.
I do agree, however, that the decision was hasty, but the move on F-Man and Groudon's part to resubmit wasn't a smart move, I feel. We were (and I suppose, still are) in a transitional phase, and I know F-Man has enough records in this game to care too much about one more. ;)
I would be in favour of deleting the chart if no suitable solution can be found. It's a shame it has to come to this though...
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I say use the DC version for a better achievement and submit the real time you get.
If you got something above 99 minutes and the trial says 21:55:75, obviously it means you got 121:55:75, so submit that. Can't prove it? Yes you can, make a video. Not like we require proofs here anyway.
If that doesn't work, then let's fall to trying to get as close as 99 minutes as possible, which is retarded, and generally avoided at TSC, so let's remove the stage instead.
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New ruling, hopefully to settle this for good: HS-G time chart is removed entirely, as per a consensus reached by myself, mike89, and F-Man. Now we can move on to other things.
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Kind of sad for this to reach such a level that the entire stage get cut, but its for the best. The total time's still account for Hot Shelter though (will time account for this eventually?).
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when someone updates a Gamma time, Hot Shelter's time effects should be eradicated from their total time. This might be a problem for someone like VMU who doesn't show up often. My HS\G was removed before and I never bothered to resubmit so I currently have a hole in Total Gamma yet I'm missing no Gamma times due to the new chart. Updating in the category should make thing right I assume.
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I can think of a workaround for this. Since the class has been removed but the stats not, the stats should be suspended when class obsoletion takes place. In the meantime I think I'll find all stats from the currently suspended classes and suspend them myself.
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There you go, deleting stuff without my permission! Er, I mean, without properly discussing it.
(Just like at Cyberscore. People go and hastily decide on rules within 2-4 days- so quickly that I miss it.)
What exactly was so terrible about the chart? There was competition. The stage isn't totally broken.
Now, I have to depend on Cyberscore for HS rankings. I'm sure everyone here would love that.
But really, a list of charts that misses an obvious and important stage is un-awesome,
and this is lowering TSC's awesomeness in the area that matters- in "the best game ever made".
Plus, deleting stuff always causes problems. Just like with deleting records instead of reducing them to nothing.
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and this is lowering TSC's awesomeness in the area that matters- in "the best game ever made".
But it hasnt affected SPA at all :<
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first off, Marth, this decision was sitting around for months with no resolution. November-March is certainly not a period of 2-4 days. This had been debated on and off forever. Keeping the chart caused mroe problems than deleting it. Nobody but you followed to newly placed rule, there was no way to prove high times perfectly, there was no resolution on the method used to record your time. Basically, this was an extremely controversial chart.
Second, hot shelter gamma is not an important chart in SADX. Removing it does not kill sa1's essence. This isn't like removing EC-S. HS-G was relatively unimportant int he scheme of things.
Third, even F-MAN, champion of SADX, voted that removing the chart was a valid option. If someone who likes sa1 that much voted to remove the stage, we can be assured that it really wasn't providing that much to TSC. The chart didn't provide much competition. Hitting a switch for 45 minutes isn't exactly the world's most involved and competitive thing. i don't really want to spend 40 minutes for a failed attempt at the boss. The stage may have had plenty of room for error and thus room to be better than another, it still really didn't provide much outside those willing to be really patient.
Removing the stage was the best choice, IMO.
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I completely agree with stefan, which is why I never attempted a 99 minute run even when I knew how because I knew i'd fail majorly at the boss.
I really doubt anyone gives a damn about such a broken stage anyway, now if anyone takes away emerald coast/sonic then we're gunna have problems
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Logged in quickly for an important post:
first off, Marth, this decision was sitting around for months with no resolution. November-March is certainly not a period of 2-4 days. This had been debated on and off forever. Keeping the chart caused mroe problems than deleting it. Nobody but you followed to newly placed rule, there was no way to prove high times perfectly, there was no resolution on the method used to record your time. Basically, this was an extremely controversial chart.
Second, hot shelter gamma is not an important chart in SADX. Removing it does not kill sa1's essence. This isn't like removing EC-S. HS-G was relatively unimportant int he scheme of things.
Third, even F-MAN, champion of SADX, voted that removing the chart was a valid option. If someone who likes sa1 that much voted to remove the stage, we can be assured that it really wasn't providing that much to TSC. The chart didn't provide much competition. Hitting a switch for 45 minutes isn't exactly the world's most involved and competitive thing. i don't really want to spend 40 minutes for a failed attempt at the boss. The stage may have had plenty of room for error and thus room to be better than another, it still really didn't provide much outside those willing to be really patient.
Removing the stage was the best choice, IMO.
1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.
2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.
3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)
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You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rouge_the_Bat#17_or_18.3F.3F.3F).
I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.
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Logged in quickly for an important post:
1. First, a rule was set up, and I didn't approve of it. But there was still a chart. Then, after it had been sitting around for a while, THREE people suddenly decided, with too little discussion (and in less than 4 days), to remove it entirely. The dumb rule is the main reason it was so broken, anyway. It was fine before the rule.
2. It's a time chart. It's important enough. Also, with Cyberscore's new ring and score charts, TSC had better make sure it's better. But obviously, it's not trying too hard. As I recall, there are a few CS-haters here... maybe some of them are even responsible for deleting the chart.
3. And what am I? I'm already a bit jealous from being overshadowed by F-Man,
but this is too much! You act like I'm not at all important, that I'm no good at the game,
that I don't know enough, and that I don't think it's the best game ever made. I'm just as much
of a Sonic Adventure fan as F-Man, and even if he managed to pull ahead on a lot of charts,
I've still held the records at one time or another, and I've discovered a lot of major glitches.
So there's my proof of "authority" and a valid opinion.
If the stage is so terrible, then we can discuss rules that would make it not broken.
But the best way for now is to just leave it with no extra rules, until something is worked out.
It really sounds as if you just personally dislike the stage. (There are a lot of stages, and even
whole divisions, that I dislike and/or am bad at. Am I asking for them to be removed?)
Oh come on. :( This chart was deleted in less than four days. F-Man first suggested it after tsc's downtime IIRC. The chart had stayed up long after that anyway. It may be a time chart, but it is a time chart with major flaws. There is no fun in making sure you didn't hit a single switch tiwce and there is little fun in 45 minutes of switch pounding.
I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.
Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.
I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.
I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.
I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.
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You know Marth, I've learned over time that arguing with you is useless. Of course I'm mainly thinking about all the times it happened aimlessly in the chat, but I guess I could also link to this evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rouge_the_Bat#17_or_18.3F.3F.3F).
I didn't want the chart removed either but since people couldn't deal with it, it just had to be done. I was the first one to throw the idea in the chat after an extensive debate, because it's simply the fairest way to deal with this without having to resort to lametastic rules. I guess we just have to accept the stage was too broken for this site's qualifications.
You know why arguing with me is pointless? Because I make sure I know what I'm talking about.
(In the Sonic Channel vs. Sonic Adventure argument, I knew SA and SC didn't match up.
In the "is the stage clear or not?" argument, I knew it would be silly and inconsistent to disallow the times.)
I don't switch my opinion around whenever someone disagrees with me, or when the majority
of people involved in the discussion turns against me. Call me stubborn, but at least I'm consistent.
And that's no reason to ignore everything I say. If I say something, there's a reason.
Also, if I have to be stubborn, there must be someone else who's stubborn and won't agree with me.
Finally, doon't drag other stuff in here. It can be used for my side, if for anything.
About a solution, if the "three consecutive hits" rule and any other possibilities are all "lametastic",
then just get rid of the rules, as you said in an earlier post here. Allow 90+ and 100+ or whatever one can get.
I'm not calling you insignificant, I'm not calling you bad, I'm not calling you unimportant. I'm telling you that there are also SA1 LOVERS who thought getting rid of the chart was the best choice. No, I was not bcalling you bad. You took that too far. I'm telling you that evenpeople who are likely biased in favor of the game suggested taking the chart off. The idea was well supported for the most part.
Here's the thing Marth: We have been discussing rules to make the stage not borken, in the forum and in chat, for a very long time. And what came up? Nothing. Every rule is broken. There were flaws with each one.The stage really did provide more trouble than it needed.
I also hope, pretty dearly, that you don't believe TSC will ever be inferior to cyberscore. Please don't tell me you were hinting at that. TSC has been premier sonic competition site before cyberscore existed. It has many more good players with better records and better understanding of the games. Cyberscore will never overshadow TSC, especially not because it tracks a single stage that we don't.
I don't personally dislike the stage. I was not the one who pushed the baleet button. Don't try turning this into a "Stefan hates HS-G so he bombed it". I don't have thae authority for that.
I was attempting to give you the rationale for deleting the stage. It seems, anyway, that when you feel about something, all logic aside you will win. Bringing your emotions into this was definitely not convincing to me. I still believe deleting the atage was the best choice, and a majority seems to share the same opinion as I do.
1. I interpreted your message as, "Look, the wonderful, almighty F-MAN, of all people,
agreed to delete the chart!!! What he says is what goes! He's so great! He loves SA soooo much!"
Maybe I took it the wrong way, but you have to admit that you not only put his name in capitals
and called him the champion and an SA lover, but you also didn't mention me at all.
That gave the impression that you thought that he's important, and that I'm not.
2. There wasn't all that much discussion. Just uncertainty, some hasty rule changes,
and possibly a whole lot of discussion behind my back. But it didn't seem like anything was being done.
If a rule can't be thought up, just forget the rules. It was fine without them.
3. I don't know. I prefer TSC in many ways, but removing a perfectly fine chart severely damages
the completeness of the only game I really care about. So now, I have to depend on CS for that stage.
CS is complete. TSC is not. And what if more stages get broken? Or rather, what if the "3 authorities"
decide that other stages are broken? "That shortcut skips the entire level. It's no fun. DELETE THE CHART!!!!"
4. The stage is important enough. You and other people just seem to hate it.
5. Emotions? Who's bringing in emotions? Dislike for a stage- that's emotion. (Liking a stage?
Probably emotion as well. But this whole site is emotion, since we all love Sonic games. Delete it all!!!)
I don't appreciate it when I'm accused of using emotions, speculation, etc., for an argument.
Because it's not true. As I said earlier in this post, if I'm stubborn, it's because I don't change
sides easily, since I have no reason to. The fact is that we're incomplete as a result of missing a chart.
And for my feeling (which counts as much as anyone's), I think the chart should've stayed.
Until SadisticMystic started complaining about version differences and proof and garbage,
it didn't seem like there was any trouble. But it got brought up every now and then because it was so "terrible".
And again, I don't go by general opinion. Facts>opinion. Opinion=opinion.
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I have an idea.
Give it a fucking freestyle chart where you can do what you damn well like with it and shut everyone up.
This argument is entirely pointless.
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Freestyle? It's better than nothing, but I still think it deserves a regular chart. But anyway, just put up the Freestyle chart for now.
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Freestyle seems fair enough. If we were to bring it back as a regular chart, we would have to do ALL of the following things.
1. You may not hit any switch more than 3 consequtive times.
2. You may not back track to an earlier switch
3. You may not use the permanent time freeze glitch.
Clause 1 is for the obvious reason. Clause 2 is to counter a potential abuse of clause 1 talked about in chat. Clause 3 is to prevent the GC version of the level from being as broken as the DC version.
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How about "you may not shoot any switch more than 3 times on one life"?
Or no rules at all? <--Perfectly valid option here! Please don't skip over it!!!
What's that about banning the time freeze glitch? It doesn't break the level. Unless you do use the
"3 consecutive times" rule instead of the "3 times on one life".
I want a chart! And again, Freestyle is better than nothing, although I'd prefer a regular chart,
since the stage isn't broken, and people just made it into a big problem by discussing it every so often.
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I like the no rules option.
And banning the time-freeze glitch is lame. Icecap with Sonic takes advantage of the natural time freeze, as does Hot Shelter with Gamma. And don't get me started on SA2(B).
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Okay, here are two ways it can be done (with more detail).
First, no rules. For GameCube players, it's as simple as submitting the time as shown on the stage select screen.
For Dreamcast players, 100 minutes can be re-added for the submission if they were removed for that screen.
And it is provable still, with a video showing the end of the stage and the stage select screen.
If the timer is maxed at just under 100 minutes during the battle, and then the time shown
on the stage select is, say, 14 minutes, it's obvious that this 14 is over 100, and so, must be 114.
Simple enough, right? There was no confusion or arguing over this in the first place.
The other way is to have a "3 times per life" rule. This makes time-freezing useful only if used properly,
since there are limited checkpoints, and only 3 seconds can be gotten from each switch on each life.
Not much trouble there. I still think no rules might be better, but this is the best rule I can think of if there must be one.
EDIT: 300th post. Also, I'm changing the subject.
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Really, if anyone has any objections (besides "we don't like this stage"), I'd like to hear them.
If there are no objections, I'd like the chart to be put back up.
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So what's the result of your pondering, F-Man?
Do you think the chart should go up? Can you use your new admin powers? :D
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Freestyle chart added and topic locked. Further questions shall be redirected to the scrapheap.