The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => Information Kiosk => Topic started by: SpinDashMaster on August 28, 2006, 07:43:33 pm
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I had a discussion about this on the IRC chat today, and a lot of people think it's an awesome idea. It might remove the annoyance from the SADX/SA2B/Sadv123/Rush/Heroes and whatever-the-hell else there is Ring Attacks that uses the ? box.
Would it be possible if you guys could allow players to assume 50 (40 for SA, and others that are different) for a ? box instead of randomness?
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I actually like the way it still is. The problem with your list is Heroes. With Team Chaotix, Team Blast always randomizes how many rings you get.
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I thought it gave you one random for each enemy you kill, with 20 being at the top of the possibility spectrum for each random.
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I guess I didn't word the post correctly, but that's what I meant to say.
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I see your point though. It would become hard to track in a game like heroes where there are so many.
But what about DX, rush, and Adv123? This would be a lot simpler. And a much less pain-in-the-arse for most of us, getting perfects and restarting simply because we didn't nail a 1/gazillion chance of getting all the 50's.
Afterall, it should be a ring-attack, not a luck-attack, right?
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Even bosses have randomness. I don't have DX or Adv1 or 2, but I don't find a problem with the random ring boxes in Rush or Adv3. Also, you'd have to remember how many rings you get from the ring boxes and subtract the total rings you got from them from your total, then add 50 for each ring box you hit.
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Or just bypass the box and note each one you passed.
Also I could use an opinion besides "I don't see a problem with randomness." Why not explain why you feel that way?
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Hmm... that might work...
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About the sonic heroes, in team choatix in any level there are no limit of rings. Unless you get 20 rings for each robot wich is very unlikely to happen. Almost impossile to happen!
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Unless you can do some emulator-style luck manipulation. And it appears that Ocean Palace with Chaotix can be maxed, but only if someone figures out the glitch used.
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I think the ring charts could just be deleted in Rush. The scores don't even save, and you also have to collect rings for the score attack.
In score attack, the trick bonus is easily maxable and it's fairly easy to do the level in the time needed for the best time bonus. So all you are really competing for in score attack is collecting the most rings. But the scores actually save. :p
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I think the ring charts could just be deleted in Rush. The scores don't even save, and you also have to collect rings for the score attack.
Stats for old-school Sonic games don't save either.
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No. This idea fails. You just want to ruin the magic.
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Still haven't seen a logical response from the opposition but whatever.
It's just a matter of time anyway.
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Here's a serious answer: randomness > ties. This is a competition site, and if ring attack gets dumbed down to collecting all rings in a stage, while taking as much time as you want, it's not competition. With randomness, you actually have to do the stage many times, and the one who comes on top is, most of the time, the one who showed the most perseverance, getting better and faster every time, hopefully finding tricks for score attack in the process.
And since you want logic: A ? box simply does not always give you the best result. Reality > Imagination. It will and probably is interesting for other people to see what amount of rings, and luck, we've been able to get through stages with these boxes. It won't if they just become representations of what we could get if the game was just being perfect for us.
Games with ? boxes are practically the only ones interesting to ring attack. If you remove them, ring attack just becomes more useless, except for noobs who want to get better points easily. Look at stages such as Gamma's Final Egg. That not cool.
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Personally, I am against the idea of giving people a set number of rings for ? capsules. As effy said, it takes away from competition and makes it so you don't really have to try as hard to get records. Just like in TAing, if you haven't the will and determination to work hard and put effort into playing the levels multiple times (no matter how tedious or repetitive it may be), you don't deserve the record. Also, putting this rule into place would make it so that everyone has to revise their ring totals, taking into account the number of ? capsules they opened. Many people wouldn't remember how many they got, and some people no longer actively come here anymore, making it difficult to change their ring counts (since we don't know how many ? capsules they opened, either).
Games with ? boxes are practically the only ones interesting to ring attack. If you remove them, ring attack just becomes more useless, except for noobs who want to get better points easily. Look at stages such as Gamma's Final Egg. That not cool.
SA2(B) is interesting to RA, too... (checkpoint manipulation, anyone?) :(
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On a side note, let's assume everyone can hit the 1-in-43540 payout in Wild Canyon 1 all the time too, and just see how long it takes for them to run backwards a short way and do a Spiral Upper, then pause the game and claim that as their time. Because they would have gotten it anyway, right? Sure, they can submit that.
And when they do, I'll ban them for being an idiot.
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Since I've spent much time cursing and redoing runs where I've done poorly from them, I may have to kill people if this rule comes in even though it would likely benefit me overall.
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Games with ? boxes are practically the only ones interesting to ring attack. If you remove them, ring attack just becomes more useless, except for noobs who want to get better points easily. Look at stages such as Gamma's Final Egg. That not cool.
It's quite clear that you really haven't tried RAing (or thought about how to RA) any game other than the 3-D games. They all have mostly linear level designs (there are exceptions like Final Rush, of course), so that collecting all rings doesn't require so much route planning as games like Sonic1, 2, and 3&K, the levels of which mostly split into large numbers of alternate routes, at least some of which probably can't even be accessed in their entireity in a single run.
On topic, honestly, I hate hate hate whoever came up with random ring boxes in the first place, but I really think we just have to accept it the way it is. If we were to start making up our own rules for it because we don't like it, we'd have to do the same for Rush's also retarded and blatantly broken scoring system and completely mess up the Score Attack rankings.
God, I wish Rush was as awesome to RA and SA as it is to TA but it's not. :(
[EDIT] Oh, didn't notice there was a second page. SM hit it on the head.
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About the sonic heroes, in team choatix in any level there are no limit of rings. Unless you get 20 rings for each robot wich is very unlikely to happen. Almost impossile to happen!
Yes, there is. There aren't an infinite amount of enemies in a level. Far as I know, Casino Park and BINGO Highway are the only ones with infinite capacity, and for a different reason.
Also SDM I have to agree with Effy and SM and well... everyone.
The randomness element is what makes it interesting. I believe SM said it best.
Also it's fun to watch people talk about how the randomizer is pissing them off in the chatroom. X) (And it also makes for some exciting times.)
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I hate the random boxes, but I agree that it would be more difficult to figure out the ring scores,
and it would ruin the competition on many stages, at least in Sonic Adventure.
SadisticMystic's example is silly (at least the rings idea is good enough to be considered),
but it's true that Knuckles's stages are just another random, annoying thing, and they might as well
get some new rules too (which, of course, they can't).
How many games use random boxes? Was this fixed for Shadow? What about the next-gen games?
Anyway, I still don't think the randomness makes it interesting. It just makes it Mario.
A 1st-place score should depend on skill (and knowledge), not on luck and on how much
time was wasted on a stage. But there's nothing we can really do about the existing games.
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Was this fixed for Shadow?
That depends. Most ring capsules that are out in the open (like the one just before the 2nd checkpoint on Digital Circuit) usually alternate between 20 (or was it 10?) rings, 5 rings, normal barrier, magnetic barrier, flame barrier, invincibility, extra life, and nothing. And those aren't truely random.
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Does that mean they visibly change from one item to the next, and 20 rings can be gotten with good timing?
(sort of like a slow Dice Block, or that glass box from Super Mario World)
It won't surprise me if both new games have random boxes, a bad camera, worse control,
and more annoying glitches (but also invisible walls to stop glitch finders).
They'd only be following the pattern set by earlier games (although there are exceptions,
like SADX's good glitches, SH's lack of random boxes, and Shadow's improved rail-switching).
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Yes they do. They change at the same rate (about once every second). And 20 rings can easily be gotten. The only tricky ones are in the 1st fan room of The Doom, since you're gonna have to drop down so the fans aren't keeping you up and get the capsule then quickly get back over the fans.
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I'm not sure those item boxes are really random in all of those games. In Sonic Advance 2 the number of rings seems to be roughly proportional to the speed you're moving at after that delay before the item kicks in, and in Sonic Advance 3 it seems to depend on how recently a tag action was used (like if you start a high jump immediately before the item activates). I didn't test those extensively, but they would kind of make sense, and maybe some of the other games have their own hidden condition for getting more rings from them...
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I doubt those, Nitsuja. When I hit my 50 rings in Leaf Forest 1, I was not going that fast (ant at the same speed, the amount varied). In 3, I got ONE from the ring with that. And not consistently
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Hmm, I double-checked just now and while that was what I noticed in one or two cases before, you're right, it doesn't work like that consistently. That doesn't prove that there might not be some kind of pattern to it, however (and even if it is very random, certain things could alter the chances of different outcomes). Anyway, I still think it's dumb to pretend you always get lucky when the game simply doesn't work that way. But I guess this idea has enough opposition already that it won't be made a rule...
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I'm pretty sure that, if it is at all possible to manipulate the ? boxes in Rush, it's something that could only be done in a TAS.
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Since boss fights and whatnot can be manipulated in TASes, there's no doubt ? boxes in Rush (and any other Sonic game with them) can. Unfortunately, there's currently no working ROM of any DS game IIRC, so any TAS of a DS game can't be done yet.
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As I remember there are DS games that can be played on an emulator, but Rush is not one (can't get past the title screen or something).
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Don't forget, though, boss fights use artificial intelligence. Ring boxes probably don't.
In other words, a boss is designed to react to certain moves done by the player,
and that is supposed to be known (although it is probably meant to be a bit unpredictable).
A ring box only gives random numbers of rings.
I don't know if the ring boxes in SA are truly random, but they aren't affected by anything I can see.
I almost always do homing attacks (same speed), and it's at roughly the same time (haven't checked
the centiseconds), and I already know it's not anything about the number of rings Sonic has at that time.
About DS emulation, why is it so nowhere? I thought the big problem would be the touch screen.
It's basically a slightly-improved N64, right? (Or maybe the dual-display is hard to emulate.)
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About DS emulation, why is it so nowhere? I thought the big problem would be the touch screen.
It's basically a slightly-improved N64, right? (Or maybe the dual-display is hard to emulate.)
I just downloaded DSemu and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon and the damn thing won't even load. It stops responding too often, and when it does respond, it stops right away. I'm downloading the Rush ROM and that might be causing it. After the ROM is downloaded, I'll see if the problem is fixed.
edit: Nope. DSemu 0.4.6 is a piece of crap. Absolutely nothing works on it when I start a ROM.
edit2: NDeSmuME works. And it plays Sonic Rush way past the title screen.
edit3: Actually, it works until you select Gameplay. Then it stops working.
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Don't forget, though, boss fights use artificial intelligence. Ring boxes probably don't.
In other words, a boss is designed to react to certain moves done by the player,
and that is supposed to be known (although it is probably meant to be a bit unpredictable).
A ring box only gives random numbers of rings.
I don't know if the ring boxes in SA are truly random, but they aren't affected by anything I can see.
I almost always do homing attacks (same speed), and it's at roughly the same time (haven't checked
the centiseconds), and I already know it's not anything about the number of rings Sonic has at that time.
There's no such thing as true randomness in games or anything related to computers. In Megaman TAS people can cause enemies to drop particular powerups they need by doing very specific, frame-perfect dances before killing them. The same sort of thing will hold true of ? ring boxes in Rush and any other game that has them, but since we've come a long way since the NES the method used to "randomise" their output may be too complex to be manipulated practically.
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It would be simple for the game to do something like "if the player is in Boost mode, add a 10% chance of getting more rings" or "add a 2% chance of getting more rings for each enemy the player has killed in the level". Until someone disassembles the game's instructions to see what it's really doing, it's hard to know or notice that sort of thing.
As for bosses, I know that a surprising number of the Sonic Advance 1/3 bosses use a random number generator to determine their actions, and aren't reacting to the player in any meaningful way. Even if you somehow do the exact same things during the fight, the boss can still do completely different things as a result of whatever happened before the boss fight. (Ice Mountain, Angel Island, Sunset Hill, Ocean Base, Toy Kingdom, Chaos Angel, are the only ones I am sure do that.)
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As for bosses, I know that a surprising number of the Sonic Advance 1/3 bosses use a random number generator to determine their actions, and aren't reacting to the player in any meaningful way. Even if you somehow do the exact same things during the fight, the boss can still do completely different things as a result of whatever happened before the boss fight. (Ice Mountain, Angel Island, Sunset Hill, Ocean Base, Toy Kingdom, Chaos Angel, are the only ones I am sure do that.)
So your jumping around on Toy Kingdom Boss in your TAS video of SAdv3 was just to make it entertaining. I thought at first that would make the boss do a certain action, but since you said that, I get it now. That explains why every time I try to beat my TK boss time, I do the same exact thing and it's never the same.
And I assume the bosses in Rush use a random number generator as well, since I had a lot of trouble getting my Night Carnival boss time with Sonic, despite me doing the exact same thing (sometimes the electric shield on the spiked ball drops at the right time, sometimes it doesn't drop). And my Leaf Storm boss record with Blaze... I can never get under 1:50 anymore since I got the record. Anyway, if a working ROM of Rush is released and the slowdown method can be done on a DS emulator, a TAS run can be done, which might mean people would find exactly what can produce max rings from the ? ring box and if the bosses are like the ones in SAdv1 and 3 random-wise.
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There's no such thing as true randomness in games or anything related to computers. In Megaman TAS people can cause enemies to drop particular powerups they need by doing very specific, frame-perfect dances before killing them. The same sort of thing will hold true of ? ring boxes in Rush and any other game that has them, but since we've come a long way since the NES the method used to "randomise" their output may be too complex to be manipulated practically.
It's close enough to random, though, and it isn't necessarily possible to manipulate.
Maybe the ring boxes change all the time, but maybe they don't.
The numbers could be preset from when the stage loads or at least from when Sonic approaches
the ring box and when it pops into view. I think earlier Mario Party games did this with the Dice Block.
But we can't know for sure unless the Chankast people develop a savestate system
or unless someone does some special hacking or something.