The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: Rolken on May 10, 2006, 12:38:26 pm
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This just in: SONIC 2006 SUCKS. Ripped straight from 1up-
What we like: Well, it sure is fast -- almost too fast. Speed is one thing, but when it comes at the expense of actual, sensible playability, we have to wonder who on Sonic Team is drinking all the red bull. For such a mass-market product, Sonic the Hedgehog takes some serious twitch reflexes to keep you from zooming off into space (at which point you fall to your "death" and lose a life). It's hardcore in some ways, which is cool, but like the ensemble casts of Sonic's recent adventures, he too shares the spotlight here.
What we dislike: We hate when he has to share the spotlight. Memories of the recent Shadow the Hedgehog haunted us when we saw Shadow driving a jeep around blowing things up with rockets. If we wanted this we'd be playing Grand Theft Auto rip-offs instead. The new playable character's telekinetic powers also sap the "speed" element Sega's so keen to point out, by forcing the player to deal with bad guys by mentally lifting up crates and slamming them into the enemies. We couldn't really seem to do anything particularly effective when we tried to get feng shui on the bad guys, so we just gave up and switched back to Sonic. Sonic's levels sure do look beautiful, but it's more of the same "robots waiting to get hit with the Sonic spinball," while various smash-able crates and walls "block" the path. It's pretty, and it's fast, but ultimately it felt kind of shallow. And the guy who was playing the demo before we got our hands on the controller jumped into the abyss probably 15 times simply because he couldn't keep up with the blindingly fast camera changes. Whoops!
http://e3.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3150561
Even the stuff they "like" is stuff they don't actually like! D: D: D:
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Interesting... I think I'll like it... SO fast the eyes can't keep up... like his song said... "too fast, for the naked eye... Sonic the Hedgehog" I think it'll be good for me, and good to me. The Demos usually lack a lot (if anyone remembers the Halo 2 Demo(n)) of substance, and so progresses my want for this game...
I just hope they don't name it 2006... I'd cry... at least a little bit
SO everyone else says "no" and I say "this sounds fun!"
then again, I am also the guy who intentionally wrecked a four-wheeler just ot see what the tree felt like at 38 MPH
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Infinite Drops Of Doom are not good level design. I turn of Shadow mostly because I'm frustrated about falling off stuff. Too fast is also not good, especially when combined with the above.
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then again, I am also the guy who intentionally wrecked a four-wheeler just ot see what the tree felt like at 38 MPH
:O
Don't do that, it hurts. >_>
But you know, I'm not that leary about Sonic '06 (which, to my knowledge, is just being called "Sonic the Hedgehog," which is kind of dumb and will screw up the TSC abbreviations even more). Iono. The trailer's got me hooked. Heck, SONIC HEROES had me hooked, partially because I was just getting off my Sonic withdrawal. Shadow had me hooked as well, though I'm disappointed at how slow it is (unless you're running). Just hopefully this'll be better than both of those.
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Ah, see? I knew it. Action games won't be accepted anymore. This is the real reason Sonic has been getting a bad rep. They're too 'shallow'. *rolleyes*
First paragraph they complain about it being too fast, second paragraph: It's too slow. Wow... just wow.
Sonic critics don't even know what they want anymore. This is why I was always worried what would happen if Sega actually took their complaints seriously. (See my topic (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=1435.0).)
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The trailer thing has me excited right up until you see Shadow. From there on it's all downhill.
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Ah, see? I knew it. Action games won't be accepted anymore. This is the real reason Sonic has been getting a bad rep. They're too 'shallow'. *rolleyes*
First paragraph they complain about it being too fast, second paragraph: It's too slow. Wow... just wow.
Sonic critics don't even know what they want anymore. This is why I was always worried what would happen if Sega actually took their complaints seriously. (See my topic (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=1435.0).)
No.
Fast is good; so fast you can't control it is bad. Marketing a game as "fast" and it being slow is also bad. You're implying a contradiction where the complaint is lack of balance.
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Heh I higly doubt we will get controls/physics that feel different than Heroes/Shadow in Sonic games for a very long time. Except for the Wii of course.
That's what frustrates me the most. Why oh freaking why couldn't they keep it like in the SA games? It was perfect.
EDIT: oh wait I read "shallow" as "Shadow". But still, this sure sounds like it's going to feel like Shadow.
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I don't see how some segments being fast to the point of lack of control and others being slow and boring indicates that Sonic critics are off their rocker. Don't act like the world has some irrational prejudice against Sonic; that attitude is always a key indicator that something is seriously wrong and you're fighting with whatever you can grab onto. Sonic games just suck lately, and it looks like that trend isn't about to reverse.
Oh well. Sonic had a good time in 2D for awhile. So hello there, Wii...
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I'm not exactly sure about it now, but the only thing that would make a difference to me is video of the actual game happening. Then, I would consider "buy or no buy" style.
The Wii one I certainly will get, though, regardless if they call it a piece of crap, because I'm going to get a Wii at some point.
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I fucking knew it.
The trailer thing has me excited right up until you see Shadow. From there on it's all downhill.
That's exactly how I felt. I would complain about Eggman's change of look, but, to be honest, I like the idea of Sonic in a more "mature" universe.
Shame there's everything else to complain about in that trailer, though.
Good to see that no efforts are still being made to improve either the voice-acting cast or the matching of subtitles to what's actually being said.
God I hate this so goddamn much.
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I would complain about Eggman's change of look, but, to be honest, I like the idea of Sonic in a more "mature" universe.
I SO want to make a fake Weight Watchers ad starring him. X)
But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?
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How about sonic team matches the "mature" storyline with some mature gameplay. And I don't mean rocket launchers and humvees.
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I SO want to make a fake Weight Watchers ad starring him. X)
But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?
That's exactly it. :(
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well the guy is saying that Sonic's gameplay is too fast...maybe its just him or the other guy that was playing...what did anyone else think about it? I would adjust...hell I love speed, but if its uncontrollable then there is a problem.
Being too slow for playing with Light...well again with sega going into something with Sonic that shouldn't be in the first place. Glad there is the Wii game, but this one had me going for a sec. Also the stages look awesome, but that can always be said about the past games. They can still change things, but they probably wont. If this does turn out like crap, then I have no hope for them as they really have no excuse to make more bad 3-D sonics at this point and its only going to hurt them.
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The part that's too fast that they mention is probably the second part of Kingdom Valley, which actually looks really cool. It's a single-direction path where you just try to run as fast as you can while jumping above gaps.
The level design in this game looks freaking sweet. In Kingdom Valley, you can see different paths, previous ones as well as those you're heading to all around you. I'm sure finding shortcuts in this is gonna be awesome. :D
Silver's gameplay doesn't look too bad. He's slow, but that just makes it more of a normal-type platforming genre then. With some added twists of course. Like lifting platforms with telechinesy(sp?) lawl. If you look at the gameplay vid at sonic cult, at some part you're walking on a fallen building, then breaking a road farther with boulders so that you can jump onto it (while the cars start rolling down it) and from there jump inside another building. Anyway just saying that level designs look totally cool. And that the controls don't look too raped, I migh hold some hope on those still... :o
Only gameplay we haven't seen so far is Shadow, which is just going to suck anyway, we all know it. :(
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Fast is good; so fast you can't control it is bad. Marketing a game as "fast" and it being slow is also bad. You're implying a contradiction where the complaint is lack of balance.
The marketing isn't that important. Game reviewers don't need to judge games on what they perceive the game /should/ be, even if the marketing implied that. In this case, they are just holding Sonic to standards that are mostly boring (and sometimes unreasonable). They always have. Sonic should be this and shouldn't be this, etc... One of their disappointments is simply the fact there are non-Sonic characters in the game. Fortunately the 'slow' segments go to the two other characters, giving them their own gameplay identity and respecting the speed of Sonic. Not good enough huh... gamers would tend to criticize Sonic games for never having the speed of the originals (oh really) well now see what we got and look who complains.
Anyway we'll see the game for ourselves and see how fast it /really/ is. They're probably just overreacting since they're used to slow games.
Heh I higly doubt we will get controls/physics that feel different than Heroes/Shadow in Sonic games for a very long time. Except for the Wii of course.
That's what frustrates me the most. Why oh freaking why couldn't they keep it like in the SA games? It was perfect.
There was a difference? All four games were pretty much the same in terms of the way you controlled them. Besides, Heroes and Shadow were different in their own ways as well. Shadow kept the slide kick and triangle jump from Heroes. The only thing I remember them not having that the SA games did was the ability to roll while running. That was cool, but it's not a big deal. Besides we don't even know if the new game has it or not.
Shadow smoothened out the character physics of Heroes and slowed down the moves a little, so controlling Shadow felt richer than the ultra lightweight Heroes characters. Really, besides the tightness of cornering for Shadow (given to him on purpose I assume), it was a fairly ideal control setup. At least that's what I think.
I don't see how some segments being fast to the point of lack of control and others being slow and boring indicates that Sonic critics are off their rocker. Don't act like the world has some irrational prejudice against Sonic; that attitude is always a key indicator that something is seriously wrong and you're fighting with whatever you can grab onto. Sonic games just suck lately, and it looks like that trend isn't about to reverse.
They are off their rocker and here's why -- the main complaint about the slow parts is not that they're boring, but that they're slow. It's a matter of principle. The same reason they criticize the game for having too many characters. All other games can have multiple characters, but when Sonic has them, people freak.
And I really doubt the other characters are that slow, anyway. (I hope they didn't nerf Shadow, anywho..) It's still a Sonic game after all, and they're not Amy or Big. They're just too slow from 'what you'd expect' from a Sonic game. Of course, when they play as Sonic, he turns his head all the way around and say it plays too fast, and that it's too shallow.
Sonic games have been really good in my opinion, even if they are not quite the same as the 2D games. The games since Sonic Adventure explored a couple of changes to Sonic's movelist, but the main way you can improve the game (and pretty much any game) if you ask me is to increase level length and level depth. This game claimed to do just that, and we have yet to hear anything contradicting that. If this game really follows through with that promise, it will easily be the best Sonic. If anything, the /changes/ they make to the formula (including the mach speed sections, depending how they work) are more likely imo to spoil the game than keeping things the way they were.
Speaking of mach speed sections, that's probably the speedy part he was bothered by. And it probably isn't a bad thing anyway, since it's just a level gimmick, a mere section of a much larger stage. All Sonic stages have their gimmicks, and we can certainly deal with one like this. They may be shallow themselves, but they don't make the entire game shallow. The guy probably just didn't recognize that.
But yeah. You'd think if they wanted a more "mature" universe they'd also include more mature storylines/gameplay/already-existing-character development amirite?
The new Eggman is probably not meant to make him look 'darker' or more evil, but mainly to make him look like more realistic, physically. Sonic series is not meant to be mature, and apparently that still hasn't changed. But I guess that's beyond some gamers.
Good to see that no efforts are still being made to improve either the voice-acting cast or the matching of subtitles to what's actually being said.
The subtitles will probably be fixed before release, it was just a demo!
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The marketing isn't that important. Game reviewers don't need to judge games on what they perceive the game /should/ be, even if the marketing implied that.
Marketing is everything. Reviewers get a limited time to play a game, and will have had their opinion of that game built up by the demos, videos and schmoozing sent their way by the publisher. If you don't believe me, ask anyone in the industry; the publisher is far more important in selling a game that the developer is. Not only that, most people (ie not hardcore gamers) don't research what games they're going to buy, they browse in the shop. What's there that could influence their decision? What they've heard about before and what looks good on the shelves. Marketing.
As for the speed issue, you're missing the point. Sonic Team has yet to put together a control set/level design combination that allows you to go fast without 1) removing control as in the loops in Adventure 1 or 2) having sufficiently little control that you fly into oblivion all the time as in Shadow.
I think the best way to compare it is to compare a rollercoaster and a go-kart. I drive go-karts that do 70mph tops, but it's all under your control and hence feels insanely fast and rewarding; whereas rollercoasters may go faster but because they're out of my control they don't feel as fast and rely on rapid changes in g-force to create that "thrill" factor. Sonic games of late are rollercoasters; as a gamer I want control.
In conclusion, gamer's impression of speed =/= how physically fast the game is.
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Marketing is everything.
Word. I don't even need to add to that.
I think the best way to compare it is to compare a rollercoaster and a go-kart. I drive go-karts that do 70mph tops
I seriously hope you haven't crashed one of those. I once crashed a go-kart that was probably going... oh, I dunno, 50kph? (the max speed was apparently 77)
Now, I've had back troubles in the past, but that next week... wow. That was something else.
But yeah, it's amazing how much faster it feels, than being in a car even. I think that effect is created by being that much closer to the ground, not by the control element... but the point stands I suppose.
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Heh, it was just for comparison. I always feel that if I'm driving we're going faster than if someone else is (although that's quite often true as well . . . damn, waterproof metaphors are hard to come up with!).
And yes, I've wiped out on one of those karts, and yes, it hurts.
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Marketing is everything
Yea, I know, but, it doesn't affect how good a game is. That's all I was saying.
As for the speed issue, you're missing the point. Sonic Team has yet to put together a control set/level design combination that allows you to go fast without 1) removing control as in the loops in Adventure 1 or 2) having sufficiently little control that you fly into oblivion all the time as in Shadow.
I just think Sonic games are very playable and give us control of maneuverable characters (homing attack, high speed, etc) .. it's up to us to use them any way we can. Minute to learn, lifetime to master, etc. They're still fast and fun to control just like the old games and the game rates on you on time. So I think they have that going for them, it's just up to them to improve the playgrounds to use with it.
Let's forget about the loops for a second which seem to be a hot topic for some reason. Everywhere else, we have control and therefore the sense of speed and rewardness is fine. Especially in SA2 where the levels and control are so sweet.
Since the 2D games, it hasn't been so much about keeping Sonic's momentum, managing his inertia, etc, the way you would hold backwards just to slow him down a bit, which rules, etc.... and that's because in the new games, Sonic is more hyper. He accelerates faster and has homing attack and stuff. But some of the old school stuff is still there. Particularly Shadow because they really added some weight to the character physics in there, and not just by killing his cornering, although that was an interesting challenge as well.
Btw a while ago I saw some gameplay sequences of this new Sonic and they look veeery nice. :O
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Minute to learn, lifetime to master, etc.
Except I find that it takes a lifetime not to just go flying off of edges or into enemies if I want to go fast. Moreover, when I do that, I feel like I haven't done something wrong; the game says "go fast", I do, I die. It's not challenging, it's frustrating.
To feel fast Sonic doesn't have to be insanely fast. Just give me a nice control setup and wide open spaces to run in and I'd be as happy as Larry (who was very happy, apparently).
Or alternatively don't listen to me because I'm just bitter I can't play 3D Sonic to save myself :)
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That's fine, those are just my thoughts.
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Or alternatively don't listen to me because I'm just bitter I can't play 3D Sonic to save myself :)
Your not half bad at Sonic 3D.
n00b >_>
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That's not proper 3D, that's isometric. Also most of my good rankingness come from rings.
I need to finish TAing that properly actually . . .
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Except I find that it takes a lifetime not to just go flying off of edges or into enemies if I want to go fast. Moreover, when I do that, I feel like I haven't done something wrong; the game says "go fast", I do, I die. It's not challenging, it's frustrating.
This is exactly what is wrong with 3D Sonic, in its entirety. You don't feel like you lose because you're not skilled, you feel like the game pulled a fast one (lol) on you, and that's not fun. Apparently Sonic Team STILL hasn't figured that out.
Maybe they can at least fix stupid light dashing...
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You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.
It's like I said before, if they fixed -everything- they would still have to make Sonic harder to control. Otherwise, there might be no game left. When I make a good run, I'm thrilled because I put the active effort to maintain that run and keep Sonic from FLYING OFF the course. If anyone can do it, well, that's just not the same. (and even then, the above is an exaggeration since that's mainly Heroes -- the other games are hardly that bad in terms of control)
Anyway I saw the Sonic Cult movies.... some thoughts:
- Sonic seems to move really slowly except for the 'mach speed part'.
- lol @ mid-level loading times, Sonic Adventure style. Hopefully they upgrade it to Shadow the Hedgehog style. The eagle that picked up Sonic in part one was no where in sight for part 2. But I'm sure they will fix that for release, etc.
- The new guy has NO SPEED, but has awesome powers.
- adventure stages lol
- the characters move slowly in the air. Springs keep them in the air for a long time while they loop their 'omg ive been springed' animation.
- I've been told ALL of Shadow's gameplay is in a vehicle. If I can confirm this then I will post a flame-rant.
Ok, with these new revelations the game takes a couple of hits. *weeps* Still great, though.
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You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.
I TOTALLY agree with you!
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You rarely fall off for /no reason/, there's usually a rule to it and something you could have done to prevent it. At least it has that. (for example, knowing which types of platforms have an invisible guard or not) I know the games are sloppy sometimes, but that's part of the excitement. ANYTHING GOES!! >_>; But really, why adventure games can have badly designed superlame puzzles that's called a rewarding challenge, but heaven forbid you take steps to prevent yourself from dying in an action game.
Anyway I saw the Sonic Cult movies.... some thoughts:
- Sonic seems to move really slowly except for the 'mach speed part'.
- lol @ mid-level loading times, Sonic Adventure style. Hopefully they upgrade it to Shadow the Hedgehog style. The eagle that picked up Sonic in part one was no where in sight for part 2. But I'm sure they will fix that for release, etc.
- adventure stages lol
- the characters move slowly in the air. Springs keep them in the air for a long time.
There's always some rule, but that doesn't make it okay. It's not fun to lose for some almost-random reason.
If Sonic falls through the floor, it's because the floor is fake (Emerald Coast, Lost World)
or unstable (every "solid" floor and wall can be glitched through, or at least
the character can keep tripping on the edge as if trying to fall through).
If Omega runs off the cliff, it's because his homing feature is messed up, and because
there just happens to be no little invisible wall at the edge of the platform.
If Sonic goes crazy and jumps off the cliff, it's because his homing attacks are messed up,
or something that was supposed to be automatic either messed itself up or was interrupted by the player.
I haven't seen the videos yet. They're probably too much for my dial-up connection.
-more about this after
-I read somewhere else that SA had mid-level loading times. What was it like?
(SADX goes smoothly, except for the tiny pause that comes a bit after the next area is entered.
Chankast (with SA saved on my hard drive) is so smooth that I can only notice by seeing the lighting change.)
About this eagle, is it that something is clearly disappearing, like how there's just an empty space at the
back of the flat mountain in section 1 of Emerald Coast?
-Adventure Fields= :)
-Ugh... is it even worse than SA and SA2? (end of Emerald Coast, and also the vertical place in Green Forest)
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what the ultimate Sonic game would be:
-If there were other characters, they'd have Sonic-like gameplay (like Tails in SA,
or Amy without the slowness... also without Zero or Sonic/Robotnik being annoying).
-Grades would be given for 3 categories: Time, Rings, and Score.
Time-attackers are rewarded instead of ignored, and there can be different challenges
without having a whole bunch of stupid, boring, or nearly-identical missions.
(just 1 mission and 3 ranks in each)
-Sonic Heroes did the first thing right, but it still wasn't great. The reason?
It wasn't "Sonic-y" enough. Fighting should be reduced to certain small areas or stages or something.
Maybe there could even be a few mini-stages based on SH or SA2 or something.
-less (or no) shooting, no hunting, and DEFINITELY no fishing
That's all I can think of for now.
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I'm pleasantly surprised if SADX fixed this, but in SA, in Windy Valley you reached a tornado *loading time* then you get through the inside of the tornado *loading time* then appeared in a completely different area with cheesy music.
Now in Sonic06, we see Sonic grab onto an eagle. The eagle flies him a little, then the game is interrupted by a 'now loading' screen. When it's done, Sonic appears in a completely different area, on the ground, with the eagle nowhere in sight. Ugh. But this will be fixed in the final release... right? The gameplay in the demo wasn't finished yet, right? Only which parts are finalized and which arent...
I approve non-Sonic gameplay in the games, but I generally prefer if the characters have some speed, although not as fast as Sonic. But it doesn't really matter. As a fan, I really want character's speeds to be consistent from one game to another, and it would drive me nuts when they make everyone else Sonic clones. (Sonic Advance anyone?) The best non-Sonic stages are the hunting stages starring Knuckles, to me that was a pretty clever and it was addicting. Oh and a new observation:
- New character can hover (a la Rockman X in X4-X6) but it looks bad when he does it. Besides the fact that hovering is lame, they could have at least made it look less stiff and boring than it really is.
"Time-attackers are rewarded instead of ignored" Time attackers aren't ignored since you have a time bonus and your best time is recorded. Ultimately, the score which combines time and completion together, is much more interesting, and any good racer is capable of doing well enough to get the highest rank anyway. It only applies to the game's ranking system, and, in terms of replay value, having it based off score is just fine.
"and there can be different challenges without having a whole bunch of stupid, boring, or nearly-identical missions." Agreed.
Heroes was not the most serious/franchise-defining release. The game was good considering its gimmick, imo. Controlling one character is best, but that doesn't mean we should hold every single Sonic game to that standard.
In Sonic06, Sonic spends more time in the air from a spring than any other game. I'm wondering though if it's because the demo ran slower than the final game would. That would explain why other things seemed slow, including Sonic's running speed in the normal segments which I initially thought was slow on purpose. Anyway the spring thing looks awkward because Sonic stays still in the air, except his hair keeps wiggling until he snaps out of it and the player regains control.
Another observation:
- Sonic's homing attacks aims for grind rails.
That was discussed in chat, and it was pointed out how that actually can cause more trouble than it's worth.
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http://www.sega.com/games/game_temp.php?game=sonicnext
Did you guys see this yet? The movie there shows more of the level, and some glimpses of other levels. Also, I believe this is the first time we get to hear music from the game. (the music is soo cool)
In the description: 'Sonic's first adventure in the human world' you know it drives me crazy when they say stuff like that. Not just the press, but Sega PR ignores the Sonic Adventure series.
Multiplayer: It says that multiplayer will involve each of four players controlling Sonic.
Also, as I said in chat, I was told that the game will have Knuckles in it. Let's wait and see if that is true. If it is, you guys owe me a coke.
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Yep, seen it since a while.
Also, as I said in chat, I was told that the game will have Knuckles in it. Let's wait and see if that is true. If it is, you guys owe me a coke.
You owe us a source dammit.
EDIT: "Up to four players can play as Sonic and his amigos in high-spirited multiplayer fun!"
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"and his amigos"
gah, ugh. I guess pays to read. x__x
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I'm pleasantly surprised if SADX fixed this, but in SA, in Windy Valley you reached a tornado *loading time* then you get through the inside of the tornado *loading time* then appeared in a completely different area with cheesy music.
Now in Sonic06, we see Sonic grab onto an eagle. The eagle flies him a little, then the game is interrupted by a 'now loading' screen. When it's done, Sonic appears in a completely different area, on the ground, with the eagle nowhere in sight. Ugh. But this will be fixed in the final release... right? The gameplay in the demo wasn't finished yet, right? Only which parts are finalized and which arent...
I approve non-Sonic gameplay in the games, but I generally prefer if the characters have some speed, although not as fast as Sonic. But it doesn't really matter. As a fan, I really want character's speeds to be consistent from one game to another, and it would drive me nuts when they make everyone else Sonic clones. (Sonic Advance anyone?) The best non-Sonic stages are the hunting stages starring Knuckles, to me that was a pretty clever and it was addicting.
"Time-attackers are rewarded instead of ignored" Time attackers aren't ignored since you have a time bonus and your best time is recorded. Ultimately, the score which combines time and completion together, is much more interesting, and any good racer is capable of doing well enough to get the highest rank anyway. It only applies to the game's ranking system, and, in terms of replay value, having it based off score is just fine.
Heroes was not the most serious/franchise-defining release. The game was good considering its gimmick, imo. Controlling one character is best, but that doesn't mean we should hold every single Sonic game to that standard.
1. After Sonic spins around in the tornado for a few seconds, the camera changes
to show him inside it, and area 2 appears at the exact time that the camera changes.
The short pause might have something to do with setting up some little details, but I'm not sure.
(It comes about 2 seconds late in Speed Highway.)
When Sonic jumps out of the tornado, it does the same camera change and pause as before,
and Sonic lands in area 3 (The Air), which happens to have pretty good music (which is actually from Sonic 3D Blast).
Check out any of the DX videos (Windy Valley for example).
2. Okay, that's a little dumb, but at least it's not super embarrassingly glitchy.
That's just like... uh, what game does that, anyway? (I thought there was something.)
3. I don't mind as long as they're actually running. Amy moved at about a human's walking speed in SA,
and then she was suddenly going fairly fast in Sonic Heroes. (still not fast, but more than fast enough for a game to be fun)
Knuckles's stages would have been great if they had been like Sonic's.
Even the hunting wouldn't have been terrible if they had just set 1 position for each Emerald piece.
And then, as if the randomness wasn't bad enough, SA2 brought in some huge stages.
4. The time is recorded, but the ranking system rewards scores alone.
The time bonus isn't nearly enough, especially because restarting (which is almost always necessary
for the fastest times) resets the score to 0. I don't like that the game acts as if I'm no good
just because I set a time record instead of a score record,
and it also bugs me that there are so many missions to play for scores.
(A score-based system wouldn't be so bad if there was only 1 mission, although I still say that
my 1-mission system that rewards times, rings, and scores (with times being most important) is the best.
5. Yeah, I still think of Heroes as a kind of spin-off... like some typical so-so, multiplatform
game with the now-much-too-common gimmick of teamwork.
I'm still waiting for a Sonic Adventure 3, and this new game had better not be it (unless it comes to Revolution later).
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When refering to an "Ultimate Sonic game" Marth was discussing here's my thoughts on it, assuming 2D, for the Wii (with remote attached to conventional shell, and some occasional 3D ideas added to the mix.
1. All characters have the basic Sonic gameplay skeleton but with their own twists. Sonic would play like he does in Rush, Amy would play like a combination of Sonic gameplay with a Zero inspired fighting style, and Shadow would have all sorts of weapons for players to use but the combat mechanics would be like the Gun Star Heroes series.
2. Tails' and the super forms flight abilities would be controlled with the remote. (For Tails, push A while airborne to activate flight, then use the remote to make him fly in any direction. Of course you would be able to see his stamina while he flies.) The use of Wii based flight would give players unmatched precision control and maneuverability during flight.
3. Upgrades that can be found in stages.
4. If the SA:2 shooter stages come back, the gameplay and controls should be more like Mech Assault, making the pacing quicker, the combat deeper, the aiming controls less clunky, and the combat more intense.
5. Punishing difficulty. However, the difficulty would not be because of some enemy that players could not possibly react to in time in annoying posistions or from fatal blind jumps (these are the cheap death complaints spouted by critics about 2D games), but from really nasty, unforgiving enemies and boss battles.
More thoughts later.
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5. Punishing difficulty. However, the difficulty would not be because of some enemy that players could not possibly react to in time in annoying posistions or from fatal blind jumps (these are the cheap death complaints spouted by critics about 2D games)
Hello Mystic Cave Zone Act 2.
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1. After Sonic spins around in the tornado for a few seconds, the camera changes to show him inside it, and area 2 appears at the exact time that the camera changes.
The short pause might have something to do with setting up some little details, but I'm not sure.
(It comes about 2 seconds late in Speed Highway.)
When Sonic jumps out of the tornado, it does the same camera change and pause as before,
and Sonic lands in area 3 (The Air), which happens to have pretty good music (which is actually from Sonic 3D Blast).
Check out any of the DX videos (Windy Valley for example).
The camera doesn't change to show him inside the tornado, rather I'm pretty sure it's an entirely new area. The fact that it changes music as well makes the level feel even more hyper and broken apart -- the game can't keep a single mood for more than a minute.
Music for The Air is from Sonic 3D Blast?... huh, I saw a 3D Blast video and I thought that song sounded familiar... now I know! Anyway I still think the song is too candy.
Anyway, as I was saying, Shadow does the same thing in the stage Glyphic Canyon but at least in that the loading is like 1 second, and the music does not change, so the game at least pretends to disguise it. (practically the same as if the stage was not broken apart) Also of note is the fact that these parts happen when Shadow gets sucked into a tornado. A sort of pointless throwback to Windy Valley? (plus both of them are stage 2's)
2. Okay, that's a little dumb, but at least it's not super embarrassingly glitchy.
That's just like... uh, what game does that, anyway? (I thought there was something.)
I think it was because the game was incomplete. Seeing the movie on the Sega site showed some eagles carrying Sonic to other places in the same area and it showed much more of Kingdom Valley that could not have been before the end of the demo stage. So it must not be like that in the final game. (I am hoping)
3. I don't mind as long as they're actually running. Amy moved at about a human's walking speed in SA,
and then she was suddenly going fairly fast in Sonic Heroes. (still not fast, but more than fast enough for a game to be fun)
Knuckles's stages would have been great if they had been like Sonic's.
Even the hunting wouldn't have been terrible if they had just set 1 position for each Emerald piece.
And then, as if the randomness wasn't bad enough, SA2 brought in some huge stages.
Huge stages are good. They're -great-. Of course, if you don't like a certain type of stage you would want them to be as small and short as possible, but I think anyone who really appreciated Knuckles stages liked that the stages were larger in SA2. (I didnt even take them seriously until SA2) Plus the complexity increased a little with the switches and all. The only downside imo is that in SA2 the radar was fixed to show you one emerald at a time. To me this was just a crude way to get you to spend more time in them (or maybe to dumb the game down for kiddies or haters? dunno) and really didn't make sense creatively or in terms of gameplay.
I think they could be even bigger and deeper, and more detailed, and have more than 3 things to find maybe. In turn they can increase the radar range to make up for the massive stages. Also maybe a rival to compete against in the same stage who is looking for the same emeralds as well. Behold Knuckles Adventure. ahh yea.
Gamers would think that the stages are excessively slow or hard, but not so much. You're not playing a bad Zelda, you're supposed to actively and briskly scout the stage to pick up a radar reading. Some rats think Chaotix stages are somehow better just because they are in the same areas as Sonic, when it really doesn't make it any better, if the items are harder to find and you have no radar to help you anyway. Knuckles stages are really interesting, they are just different and that is really the main complaint.
4. The time is recorded, but the ranking system rewards scores alone.
The time bonus isn't nearly enough, especially because restarting (which is almost always necessary
for the fastest times) resets the score to 0. I don't like that the game acts as if I'm no good
just because I set a time record instead of a score record,
and it also bugs me that there are so many missions to play for scores.
(A score-based system wouldn't be so bad if there was only 1 mission, although I still say that
my 1-mission system that rewards times, rings, and scores (with times being most important) is the best.
Score in Sonic games is really time + score. Score encompasses both. There's TA'ing and then there's boring completion runs. But scoring in Sonic games pits you against both factors. That's why SA'ing is so great.
The game doesn't imply you're no good just because you got a time record instead of a score record. The ranking is just a replay value thing. It's just a matter of knowing that it's based entirely on your score. (since one would guess that it would be based off /something/, and that something doesn't have to be everything, which is your suggestion)
5. Yeah, I still think of Heroes as a kind of spin-off... like some typical so-so, multiplatform
game with the now-much-too-common gimmick of teamwork.
I'm still waiting for a Sonic Adventure 3, and this new game had better not be it (unless it comes to Revolution later).
If this game is Sonic Adventure 3 then what would be wrong with that?
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When refering to an "Ultimate Sonic game" Marth was discussing here's my thoughts on it, assuming 2D, for the Wii (with remote attached to conventional shell, and some occasional 3D ideas added to the mix.
I don't think there is anything 'ultimate' about Wii. :[ lol!
What 3D ideas added to the mix? If you're going to go 2D, do it all the way. Right?
5. Punishing difficulty. However, the difficulty would not be because of some enemy that players could not possibly react to in time in annoying posistions or from fatal blind jumps (these are the cheap death complaints spouted by critics about 2D games), but from really nasty, unforgiving enemies and boss battles.
More thoughts later.
You know, this is an ancient memory, but a long time ago I remember defending the 2D games against critics who thought they were too cheap. Well, actually... I think the real complaint was that the games were all about holding forward and the occasional jump. (which is even less true...)
Anyway I was thinking lately how 2D no longer suits Sonic all that well. Well, it seemed fine in the originals, but I'm not /entirely/ sure if it was because the screen covered plenty of area... and that the levels had more platforming than full-on speed... or maybe it was just because I have since gotten almost entirely used to the levels.
But in the Advance games and in Rush, I have this feeling that the gameplay is a joke since you practically have no warning or time to react to anything. The gameplay itself is a meaningless guessing game. And doing well literally means memorizing the level layout in your head. I primarily blamed this on the series's over-emphasis on speed (which is often referred to as a signature aspect of the series when in fact the original games were nowhere near that A.D.D.) But lately, like I said, I wonder if it is in some part due to the small screen size, or the fact that the levels are new.
So anyway yea, those are the issues facing 2D Sonic at the moment. It's ironic, since by the looks of Sonic 2006, the game speed is not obsessive, and Sonic looks to move slower than any 3D Sonic to date.
In any case, when I think 'ultimate' I definitely think 3D. Creatively it far surpasses 2D and creates a better experience. Believe it or not. (if you had an ultimate 2D Sonic and an ultimate 3D Sonic, I would definitely expect the 3D one to be much more ultimate)
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The camera doesn't change to show him inside the tornado, rather I'm pretty sure it's an entirely new area. The fact that it changes music as well makes the level feel even more hyper and broken apart -- the game can't keep a single mood for more than a minute.
Huge stages are good. They're -great-. Of course, if you don't like a certain type of stage you would want them to be as small and short as possible, but I think anyone who really appreciated Knuckles stages liked that the stages were larger in SA2.
Gamers would think that the stages are excessively slow or hard, but not so much. You're not playing a bad Zelda, you're supposed to actively and briskly scout the stage to pick up a radar reading. Some rats think Chaotix stages are somehow better just because they are in the same areas as Sonic, when it really doesn't make it any better, if the items are harder to find and you have no radar to help you anyway.
The game doesn't imply you're no good just because you got a time record instead of a score record. The ranking is just a replay value thing. It's just a matter of knowing that it's based entirely on your score. (since one would guess that it would be based off /something/, and that something doesn't have to be everything, which is your suggestion)
If this game is Sonic Adventure 3 then what would be wrong with that?
1. I did say the tornado is a separate area. The music changes, the tornado suddenly gets taller,
and the slowdown just makes it seem more broken apart, like you said, but it's smooth enough to not
seem really bad. It's not like: *spins around in the tornado* *freezes for a few seconds* *appears in area 2*,
like it must have been in the Dreamcast version.
2 and 3. The main problem is the radar (which only shows one emerald at a time), but it's not all.
"Actively and briskly" exploring isn't good enough for SA2's massive space stages.
Random positions make time-attacking or (in SA2 space) even getting an A difficult and annoying.
Chaotix usually is worse, though.
4. Sonic is about speed, and time is the main category for most players.
It seems weird that the games choose score as the one thing to rate a run by.
The system with one mission and 3 grades solves the problems of the ranking systems in SA, SA2, and SH.
5. There's just one little problem: No matter how good a game is, I can't enjoy it much when it's on the wrong consoles.
(I'm not getting XBox 360 or Playstation 3, and I don't know if my friends are. They probably aren't.)
Even if it's released for PC, that'll be annoying. (Everyone in the family always wants to use the PC,
and I'd barely get any time for SA3 if it wasn't on Revolution.)
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I dont care about the fact that the speed is "to much" i think its just better because youll get the feeling ur goin fast and and the best thing is it sharpens ur reflexes
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What a great contribution to the thread.
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Damn straight
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whats with the shadow hating? that game was fun!