The Sonic Center

Sonic Central => Leaderboard Disputes => Topic started by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:19:50 pm

Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:19:50 pm
I have a few things to point out:

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Hammer Tank II Cream 0:06:97 1 / 30 12-08-05

Exactly how did you do this when Adv2's 2 Greatest Players by far have this virtually maxed at 8:3x?

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Bomber Tank Cream 0:09:91 1 / 27 12-08-05
Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Totem Cream 0:08:51 1 / 26 12-08-05


Could you also please explain how you got these two?

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Saucer Cream 0:10:08 1 / 26 12-08-05

And with this, given the old record of 13:52 is quite possibly fake, kindly shed some light on what you did?

Thanks and have a nice day.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: SadisticMystic on December 08, 2005, 05:22:23 pm
All of Greham Adelphis's records in Advance 2 have been removed from the charts unless and until he explains himself properly.

Depending on what ensues, the records from other games might go with them.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:23:48 pm
Quote
Depending on what ensues, the records from other games might go with them.
[snapback]8012[/snapback]

So I may have unnecessarilly put extra effort into S3DB? -_- I could've spent that 30 minutes or so doing something constructive like skiving from College work. >_>
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 05:37:39 pm
I apologize for those. A glitch happened in the XX Zone when I was testing that move where I attack with Cheese followed by a jump attack. As a result, the times for the original zones got hit by a glitch where the times froze on that same spot. I can't tell since my copy was a used copy and no info on the original buyer's returning was available. As we speak, I am trying the bosses out again to actually get times that are not glitched (I can't access Boss Attack since my skills at the bonus stages are absolutely nasty so I need to beat the second act of each zone).

This is the only game this happened with. None of the other records are fakes or glitchy. The reason I was able to get the championship on S3DB was because I was good at the game.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:40:16 pm
Quote
I apologize for those. A glitch happened in the XX Zone when I was testing that move where I attack with Cheese followed by a jump attack. As a result, the times for the original zones got hit by a glitch where the times froze on that same spot. I can't tell since my copy was a used copy and no info on the original buyer's returning was available. As we speak, I am trying the bosses out again to actually get times that are not glitched (I can't access Boss Attack since my skills at the bonus stages are absolutely nasty so I need to beat the second act of each zone).
[snapback]8015[/snapback]

Using XX Zone=No.

As the Boss have half health. Also that attack is not a glitch, your times however were. And the freezing timer you described is HIGHLY unlikely.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 05:42:42 pm
Quote
Quote
I apologize for those. A glitch happened in the XX Zone when I was testing that move where I attack with Cheese followed by a jump attack. As a result, the times for the original zones got hit by a glitch where the times froze on that same spot. I can't tell since my copy was a used copy and no info on the original buyer's returning was available. As we speak, I am trying the bosses out again to actually get times that are not glitched (I can't access Boss Attack since my skills at the bonus stages are absolutely nasty so I need to beat the second act of each zone).
[snapback]8015[/snapback]

Using XX Zone=No.

As the Boss have half health. Also that attack is not a glitch, your times however were.
[snapback]8016[/snapback]

I apologize again. Maybe you were right, but there is no rule in the competition rules stating that XX Zone times are not allowed. This wasn't so much a cheating as it was a rule misunderstanding.

I am really sorry.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:46:19 pm
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I apologize again. Maybe you were right, but there is no rule in the competition rules stating that XX Zone times are not allowed. This wasn't so much a cheating as it was a rule misunderstanding.

I am really sorry.
[snapback]8017[/snapback]

I do believe it states "No Easy Mode" in the rules and that "Time Attack Mode" must be used where available. Dont have it? Tough.

Also it amazes me how you could not of realised that the Bosses were taking less hits than usual.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 05:47:47 pm
When I got those times, I was using normal mode and not easy.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: sonicam on December 08, 2005, 05:48:46 pm
Oh, I see. You Boss Attacked the bosses using XX Zone. No, that can't be used. As RPG said, the XX Zone bosses start off with half HP so they get defeated faster. XX Zone-Normal can only be used for XX Zone to Time Attack since XX Zone is unaccessable in Time Attack Mode. When you are going to Boss Attack the bosses, you have to use the Boss Attack Mode and IIRC, Normal Mode end of Act 3 times are applicable. It's a small misconception since I believe he is right, the usage of XX Zone for Boss Attacking isn't allowed isn't in the rules for SAdv2.

EDIT: Calm down RPG. It's not that serious.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 05:53:18 pm
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EDIT: Calm down RPG. It's not that serious.
[snapback]8020[/snapback]

I am calm, I am merely taking great length to point out his idiocy because I am in a bad mood :D
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 05:54:50 pm
Also, both easy and normal had that same thing where the bosses have half health from what my game is indicating.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: sonicam on December 08, 2005, 05:57:13 pm
Likewise RPG, as in I'm in a bad mood too, a VERY bad mood. Lay off him, he's not cheating, he's not lying or anything. He just made a mistake, something that I can see pretty much can't be done here. I'm getting a little sick of the insolence, extreme sarcasm and deletion of records/accounts without warning. Don't call him an idiot. Come on, it's just not fair. Agh, this is pissing me off...
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 06:06:39 pm
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I'm getting a little sick of the insolence, extreme sarcasm and deletion of records/accounts without warning. Don't call him an idiot. Come on, it's just not fair.
[snapback]8023[/snapback]

Hey, TSC'd do the same for me :P

And I didnt delete his records, I dont have the authority
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: sonicam on December 08, 2005, 06:11:10 pm
*sigh* Please quote me in my previous post where I said "RPG, I'm tired of your insolence, extreme sarcasm and deletion of records/accounts without warning". Can't can you? Well, that's cuz I never said that... I'm speaking of TSC as a whole.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 06:15:55 pm
Quote
*sigh* Please quote me in my previous post where I said "RPG, I'm tired of your insolence, extreme sarcasm and deletion of records/accounts without warning". Can't can you? Well, that's cuz I never said that... I'm speaking of TSC as a whole.
[snapback]8025[/snapback]

Well, as I'm the only other person posting in this now-farce of a topic, I assumed you were talking to me. And in all fairness, if a record is clearly a fake, just plain made up or achieved via 'illegal' means, I dont see on-the-spot deletion as a problem.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: sonicam on December 08, 2005, 06:21:09 pm
It was deleted without notification. I'm sure SM didn't say, "Hey Graham, I'm going to delete your records if you don't explain yourself." Nope, instead, poof, they're gone. I really don't want to get into my views of TSC's policies since I'll somehow come over as being wrong just for sharing my views, so why bother?
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 08, 2005, 06:24:24 pm
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It was deleted without notification. I'm sure SM didn't say, "Hey Graham, I'm going to delete your records if you don't explain yourself." Nope, instead, poof, they're gone. I really don't want to get into my views of TSC's policies since I'll somehow come over as being wrong just for sharing my views, so why bother?
[snapback]8027[/snapback]

You cant really have 'wrong' views, everyone's entitled to an opinion dude
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 06:50:45 pm
I am not lashing out at you RPG since I really admire your skills, but here is my opinion:

If a rule was written in the "Competition Rules" section, then I follow it. There is only one rule associated with all the SAdv's. This one:

Sonic Advance 1,2,3
On levels which are not available on time attack mode, normal mode - not easy mode - must be used.

Since the rules didn't state that XX Boss times were illegal, I simply did what any other new member would do: submit records based on the rules (my mode was normal) and minded my own business. I even made a guide on how to make fast and swift attacks on the bosses as Cream under the idea that I was doing the right thing. As of this posting, the rule about XX Zone was verbal and not written. I was just following the written rules.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: SadisticMystic on December 08, 2005, 07:06:27 pm
Go ahead and submit your full records, then (you haven't been disabled).  I'm still formulating the full, official wording of the rules.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: magnum12 on December 08, 2005, 08:21:26 pm
Here's a suggestion for the wording of the XX rule (if you like it).
"You may not use boss times (bosses before the last one) taken from XX Zone. Reason: The hit points for bosses in this zone are cut in half, regardless of whether a player uses normal mode." I think some rules (asides from the really obvious ones like no turbo device) should have a reason posted if the reason may not be obvious to new users, like the no two speed power ups in 14 seconds rule existing because of the nasty bug mentioned in one of SM's guide.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 09:53:13 pm
And maybe we can make the rule a Freestyle. It seems quite open for such treatment.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Spinballwizard on December 08, 2005, 10:20:27 pm
Actually, it probably wasn't listed because it was assumed that people wouldn't just use the XX times, as those would technically be counted for TAing XX.

It should probably be clarified though. Though magnum's ruling seems a little long...

I'd say...
Quote
Sonic Advance 2
Bosses Divisions
When submitting times for individual bosses, the sub-bosses of the XX Zone may not be individually timed. You can only time bosses in the XX Zone when obtaining a time for the XX Zone as a whole.
And I doubt Greham's freestyle rule would be implemented. Most freestyle rules are developed because of a common glitch or strategy in a level/group of levels that can allow for arbitrarily fast times because they take advantage of such glitches. Examples would include S3/Time Attack/Desert Palace (Where it is possible in parts to cross the lap marker while facing left without decrementing the time it seems.), the Sonic Adventure games (where apparently there's a glitch if you get multiple speed shoes too quickly), and a few others.

Actually, weren't we considering making the Team Blast Glitch in SH Freestyle only because it's kinda like that? (And I don't really know how to take advantage of it... >_>)
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 08, 2005, 10:52:29 pm
I can make one comparison between my freestyle suggestion and a previous freestyle rule:

You must play through all five characters on Mission 1 and Mission 5 of Cannon's Core, and you may not enter other levels in the process of obtaining a time. (Freestyle)

This rule is completely similar. Both zones (Cannon's Core and XX) have similar structures (individual sections where the time stops until the next area/boss has been loaded). Since both zones are of the same type, they should both get similar rules.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Rolken on December 09, 2005, 01:53:20 am
sonicam, I designed the database such that "deleted" times don't actually disappear and can be easily re-enabled if found to be valid, so it's more like a challenge limbo state than actual deletion.

But aside from that... I'm not sure to what extent what he said is true, but so far as it is I agree with him. This forum deals with people we generally know little to nothing about; this topic at least is way too accusatory/mocking/triggerhappy. And if somebody's times vanish, they definitely should be notified as to why and how to rectify it.

Greham, that's not actually similar. In Freestyle you may enter other levels, but the final time obtained must still be on the competition level - the rule exists due to a series of bugs that can be exploited for remarkable times. Freestyle XX zone bosses wouldn't add any strategic value.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: yse on December 09, 2005, 03:03:09 am
I question whether Freestyle in general adds any strategic value.

Come on, nobody plays it, it's only there to stop the idiots from posting uberglitched times in the wrong place. And such uberglitches are covered in the rules anyway.

I say it's time to scrap the entire concept of "freestyle." It's an unnecessary space-filler.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 09, 2005, 03:12:52 am
Quote
I question whether Freestyle in general adds any strategic value.

Come on, nobody plays it, it's only there to stop the idiots from posting uberglitched times in the wrong place. And such uberglitches are covered in the rules anyway.

I say it's time to scrap the entire concept of "freestyle." It's an unnecessary space-filler.
[snapback]8041[/snapback]

But what about those 00ber sub 10 seconds CC1 times? D:
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: SadisticMystic on December 09, 2005, 03:32:53 am
Freestyle charts exist for when something completely breaks a level, but when it's still possible for players to compete under the revised mechanics that have become the "best path".  There's a difference between 7, 8, and 15 seconds in Cannon's Core that can be controlled by skill, and the ability to do such things deserves to be worth a mention.

There are other mechanics that not only break levels, they put an end to competition when they're used.  Pause-B in the Genesis games, for example, makes it trivial to get 0:00 in any level, so it's disallowed.  Pause-cancellation in SA2 is another good example: if you pause on mission 2 at the exact time when you collect ring #100, then select Restart from the pause menu, you'll be credited with level complete as soon as you restart.  This would be a Freestyle-class trick and might be listed there except for one big problem: the timer just counts up as soon as you restart, with nothing further for you to control, and it saves your record as 0:08.25, every time you pull it off.  There's no factor of "I did it slightly imperfectly so I end up with 0:08.27 or 0:10"; if you pull it off at all, you get exactly 8.25 no matter what.  This leaves nothing to compete over.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: CosmicFalcon on December 09, 2005, 06:07:17 am
Quote
I am not lashing out at you RPG since I really admire your skills, but here is my opinion:

If a rule was written in the "Competition Rules" section, then I follow it. There is only one rule associated with all the SAdv's. This one:

Sonic Advance 1,2,3
On levels which are not available on time attack mode, normal mode - not easy mode - must be used.

Since the rules didn't state that XX Boss times were illegal, I simply did what any other new member would do: submit records based on the rules (my mode was normal) and minded my own business. I even made a guide on how to make fast and swift attacks on the bosses as Cream under the idea that I was doing the right thing. As of this posting, the rule about XX Zone was verbal and not written. I was just following the written rules.
[snapback]8029[/snapback]

All bosses, save the final giant robot, are available in Time Attack mode (once unlocked). Therefore using XX Zone to attain submitted times is a violation of rules that have been clearly stated in the competition rules page for years.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Spinballwizard on December 09, 2005, 12:02:14 pm
Besides Greham, there are SP Ring guides on the site. :o

They're not that hard to follow either. :o
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 09, 2005, 12:21:11 pm
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Besides Greham, there are SP Ring guides on the site. :o

They're not that hard to follow either. :o
[snapback]8046[/snapback]

It really isn't the rings part, it's the robot in the special stages. Since the type is new to me, he keeps attacking me and all I really can do is stand there most of the time. After a little bit, I started playing practice rounds of the first special and was able to proceed. That run was the first and only time one of the characters got all Chaos Emeralds on my copy.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 09, 2005, 01:30:04 pm
Quote
Quote
I question whether Freestyle in general adds any strategic value.

Come on, nobody plays it, it's only there to stop the idiots from posting uberglitched times in the wrong place. And such uberglitches are covered in the rules anyway.

I say it's time to scrap the entire concept of "freestyle." It's an unnecessary space-filler.
[snapback]8041[/snapback]

But what about those 00ber sub 10 seconds CC1 times? D:
[snapback]8042[/snapback]

To put it quite simply, friend, they go *poof* like flour when you hit it with wind.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 09, 2005, 02:00:20 pm
Quote
Quote
Quote
I question whether Freestyle in general adds any strategic value.

Come on, nobody plays it, it's only there to stop the idiots from posting uberglitched times in the wrong place. And such uberglitches are covered in the rules anyway.

I say it's time to scrap the entire concept of "freestyle." It's an unnecessary space-filler.
[snapback]8041[/snapback]

But what about those 00ber sub 10 seconds CC1 times? D:
[snapback]8042[/snapback]

To put it quite simply, friend, they go *poof* like flour when you hit it with wind.
[snapback]8048[/snapback]

D: I put small amounts of effort into a few Freestyle times.

Also your sig needs updating :P
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: sonicam on December 09, 2005, 02:56:20 pm
ZERO should never really be a problem. One thing you should NEVER do in an SP Stage and that's stop. Keep moving. Stopping makes it harder to keep chain ring combos and  increases your chance of getting hit by ZERO. It's not worth it, just keep moving and find chain combos. It does indeed take practice, but if I was able to do it, I'm sure you can.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Rayku on December 09, 2005, 03:02:39 pm
I wish people at my school were like this...not screaming and cussing each other out when they diagree. *sigh*
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: magnum12 on December 09, 2005, 10:32:21 pm
With me, its finding all the stuff needed to enter the special stages thats annoying (Worst....special stage...entry method...ever. Spoof of Comic Book Guy.), not the stage itself which is cool. Oh, BTW, Red Zero>>>>>>>>>>Green Zero. I sort of agree with Mike regarding Freestyle. Why do we have it when we can just cut the division and make the stuff under Freestyle not allowed at all.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 09, 2005, 10:59:54 pm
Quote
Also your sig needs updating :P
[snapback]8050[/snapback]

Updated and checked. Thanks for noticing!

And I also have to agree with magnum12. The SP Rings were a bit...too much. It almost ruined the spirit of the good ol' Sonic days.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 10, 2005, 06:15:38 am
Random Thought:

He might've claimed using XX Zone but that still does not explian:

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Bomber Tank Cream 0:09:91 1 / 27 12-08-05
Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Totem Cream 0:08:51 1 / 26 12-08-05
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 10, 2005, 11:00:32 am
Quote
Random Thought:

He might've claimed using XX Zone but that still does not explian:

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Bomber Tank Cream 0:09:91 1 / 27 12-08-05
Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Totem Cream 0:08:51 1 / 26 12-08-05

[snapback]8061[/snapback]

Both came out of the same place the other two did. XX Zone times.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: qubit on December 10, 2005, 11:32:41 am
Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I question whether Freestyle in general adds any strategic value.

Come on, nobody plays it, it's only there to stop the idiots from posting uberglitched times in the wrong place. And such uberglitches are covered in the rules anyway.

I say it's time to scrap the entire concept of "freestyle." It's an unnecessary space-filler.
[snapback]8041[/snapback]

But what about those 00ber sub 10 seconds CC1 times? D:
[snapback]8042[/snapback]

To put it quite simply, friend, they go *poof* like flour when you hit it with wind.
[snapback]8048[/snapback]

D: I put small amounts of effort into a few Freestyle times.

Also your sig needs updating :P
[snapback]8050[/snapback]

itt we overquote
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 10, 2005, 12:03:50 pm
Quote
Quote
Random Thought:

He might've claimed using XX Zone but that still does not explian:

Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Bomber Tank Cream 0:09:91 1 / 27 12-08-05
Greham Adelphis SAdva2 Egg Totem Cream 0:08:51 1 / 26 12-08-05

[snapback]8061[/snapback]

Both came out of the same place the other two did. XX Zone times.
[snapback]8063[/snapback]

You did not get those times. using XX Zone or otherwise.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 10, 2005, 12:32:00 pm
What I said was the truth. Those were (rather shocking) times from XX Zone and not from my head. To explain Egg Bomber Tank, I simply alternated between Cheese and the jump attack to take out the cannon and proceeded to dodge the oncoming bombs to do the same with the Tank itself. Egg Totem was taken out in a similar combo, with the exception that only Hit #3 was a jump attack.

I may have misunderstood the rules and submitted false times, but one thing I never do is make up times.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Bilan on December 10, 2005, 12:40:08 pm
Quote
What I said was the truth. Those were (rather shocking) times from XX Zone and not from my head. To explain Egg Bomber Tank, I simply alternated between Cheese and the jump attack to take out the cannon and proceeded to dodge the oncoming bombs to do the same with the Tank itself. Egg Totem was taken out in a similar combo, with the exception that only Hit #3 was a jump attack.

I may have misunderstood the rules and submitted false times, but one thing I never do is make up times.
[snapback]8068[/snapback]

My bad, sorry about that, I didnt take something into account there. You have my sincerest apologies Greham and I hope you can accept them.
Title: Greham Adelphis...
Post by: Aere Alouette on December 10, 2005, 01:24:33 pm
Quote
Quote
What I said was the truth. Those were (rather shocking) times from XX Zone and not from my head. To explain Egg Bomber Tank, I simply alternated between Cheese and the jump attack to take out the cannon and proceeded to dodge the oncoming bombs to do the same with the Tank itself. Egg Totem was taken out in a similar combo, with the exception that only Hit #3 was a jump attack.

I may have misunderstood the rules and submitted false times, but one thing I never do is make up times.
[snapback]8068[/snapback]

My bad, sorry about that, I didnt take something into account there. You have my sincerest apologies Greham and I hope you can accept them.
[snapback]8069[/snapback]

Apologies accepted, friend.