The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Competition Central => Topic started by: SadisticMystic on September 06, 2006, 07:05:40 am
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Sometimes it can be fun to guess what you think a "perfect" time for a level can be, possibly to be proven wrong later.
I'll have a go by hazarding guesses at the stages I know best: the 14 treasure-hunting levels across the Adventures.
Wild Canyon: 1.29 (1.22 in a TAS where you can double-tap A a single frame apart)
Pumpkin Hill: 10.87
Aquatic Mine: 6.89
Death Chamber: 9.42
Meteor Herd: 17.69 (all bets are off here if 3+1 can be obtained on the same life, putting the record somewhere in the 14s)
Dry Lagoon: 6.44
Egg Quarters: 7.70
Security Hall: 5.75 (5.69 in a TAS)
Mad Space: 8.95
Speed Highway: 12.33
Casinopolis: random guess of 7.56 based on a strat I've spent 635 lives on with no success (but I know to be possible); it might work out even better and go into the high 6s
Red Mountain: 6.88
Lost World: 14.59
Sky Deck: 7.34
And I'll close by holding out hope that when TAS capabilities finally come, the Pumpkin Hill 5 path I have in development will finally be pulled off, resulting in a time of...oh, say, 17.99. (hint: the splits would be something like 5.52, 12.90, 17.97)
For games that already have a TAS available as a reference for what's believed to be perfection (such as the Advance games), you can make your guesses at what the "human" standard of perfection would be, the one that TSC records will tend to over time.
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Hmm
This is....interesting
Ill have to REALLY think about this, but I reckon Windy Valley-Sonic will go into the 1:1x's eventually :o
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All the Advance 2 times are perfect already *SHOT*
Although for the most part if no major route enhancements are found, I don't think we'll get a lot faster in that game.
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seeing how I played city escape alot I figure 1:38's or lower could be done with TAS, since it maniulate all the luck involved. probably a similiar time could be done on hard mode, maybe a second or two slower. on console maybe 1:44/1:47 (normal/hard) could be done, but it would require a solid run and crazy luck, so they probably won't happen unless F-man starts playing again :p
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Someone claims to have gotten 1'16"-- on City Escape by falling through the floor,
but this hasn't been proven. I don't even know if the stage is laid out in the right way.
Anyway, I'll try to guess at different kinds of perfection in SA: inhumanly and humanly possible.
I'm not sure whether to define "inhumanly possible" as a Tool-Assisted Run or as true perfection.
It seems like they would be close together, but no one knows how good true perfection could be.
Maybe I'll just do TAS-quality. It's easiest to understand. :P
TAS-quality is on the left. Humanly possible is on the right. Oh, and one more thing: I'm mostly going by
what shortcuts are known or at least possible. I'm not going to take off seconds to predict new discoveries.
Sonic
Emerald Coast: 1'03" - 1'07"
Windy Valley: 1'20" - 1'23" (I missed the capsule and hit the ground at 1'25"25. I can definitely cut seconds off even that.)
Casinopolis: 0'06" - 0'10" (6 seconds because there is a place to jump from, even if it's tiny.)
Icecap: 0'10" - 0'11" (There's not much that can be done here so far, although it's not impossible that there's something.)
Twinkle Park: 0'55" - 1'01" (big lack of knowledge about Dreamcast here :( )
Speed Highway: 1'03" - 1'07"
Red Mountain: 0'52" - 0'55"
Sky Deck: 1'12" - 1'15"
Lost World: 1'05" - 1'10"
Final Egg: 0'07" - 0'07"50
Tails
Windy Valley: 0'18" - 0'20"
Casinopolis: 0'10"50 - 0'11"50 (I'd put the human one higher, but I'm only working with half-seconds. :P )
Icecap: 1'27" - 1'30" (maybe even 1'20", probably tool-assisted)
Sky Deck: 0'20"50 - 0'22"
Speed Highway: 0'47" - 0'48" (no, wait... I forgot what everyone has on this stage)
Amy
Twinkle Park: 0'44" - 0'46"
Hot Shelter: 2'18" - 2'24"
Final Egg: 1'23" - 1'24"50
E-102
Final Egg: 6'00" - 5'50"
Emerald Coast: 4'00" - 3'55"
Windy Valley: 11'50" - 11'42"
Red Mountain: 5'03" - 4'55"
Hot Shelter: 99'56" - 99'54"
I'm kind of forgetting what the best times are. If you feel like yelling at me, don't. :(
If you think any of these are crazy, feel free to comment, so I can either correct my mistake
or explain what crazy glitches I'm thinking of.
I should get back into map-making. It could be very useful for figuring out where a
shortcut is possible. It showed that Sonic could safely land after falling out of Icecap, for example.
(I probably wouldn't have guessed that and tried making a shortcut. It's natural to think that
the mountain isn't going to loop over itself and glitch under without using ceilings.)
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Hmmmmmm. I can only talk about Rush, and the competition's getting a bit out of my league lately (I haven't been playing much either), but I'll add what I can here. Since there's no TAS yet we don't know if there are any specific differences that make it completely different (like with SAdv2), so I'm kinda limited in that respect. However, it's worth noting that TAing with Blaze often involves lots of near pixel-perfect precision for optimum results (Hop Stepping at ground level and getting a massive speed boost), so TAS would probably make a more significant difference with her.
Leaf Storm 1 Sonic can go to maybe around 36.30, I think. Or maybe even lower, who knows? Assuming my route is optimal, of course. My run with Blaze was really flawed, so she can easily go under 40, with TAS probably significantly lower (sub 39 I guess).
I think Altitude Limit 1 Sonic can go to just under 2 minutes.
Bosses might end up being a totally different game with the possibility of luck manipulation.
...damn, that's really all I can add. :( I just haven't been active enough to remember how flawed my own records are. Hopefully Skylights can shine a bit more light on things, and those active in the Time Attack division can offer some suggestions there.
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After getting 1.20 on the first segment in Mad Space, I'm changing my guess there. 8.84 seems possible.
[EDIT] and after seeing the last segment in my 8.94 run, I'm lowering it again, to 8.79
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Falling through the floor in city escape IS possible, but the point at which one generally is able to fall through the floor is usually much past 1:16 during the truck section. It also seems impossible to utilize the glitch becasue there is an invisible "wall" which hurts you when you rech a certain area.
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Rush things:
Water Palace 1 - Neither times are going much lower unless either character can somehow jump on top of the loop that appears at around 0:30, but I don't think it's possible at this point.
Mirage Road 1 - That can stand for improvement still. It just might be possible to go into the sub 2:10 range.
Mirage Road 2 - I don't see the Sonic time going much faster anymore. Maybe by half a second. Can't say much about Blaze at this time though.
Night Carnival 1 - Can probably be improved about two seconds. I did make one or two mistakes in that record, but I don't see any other massive shortcuts happening for that level.
Huge Crisis 1 - You could probably get like, half a second more, but that'd be it. Blaze on the other hand can potentially cut off 7-12 seconds... maybe. I don't know if they put an invisible wall where I'm thinking of yet though. :(
Huge Crisis 2 - Luck oriented for Sonic, which is total crap, so blah. I think a second of improvement is possible off of Crowbar's record due to the nature of the level. Blaze can improve about 3 or 4 seconds though probably.
Altitude Limit 2 - Sonic can probably go faster by a second and a half, but it's been so long since I did the Blaze record that I don't remember much about it... I think it was pretty solid though, but I'm not going to give an estimate just in case.
Dead Line 2 - This is luck-oriented, so I can't say much about what the max time for this level is. :( Blaze can totally go faster though, I'm sure of it.
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In Huge Crisis 1, Blaze can cut a ton of time if she can ever make it over the one wall. Always a few pixels short of making it.
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i've fallen through at the truck, it took probably 30 seconds to finally die.
I also beleive: TAS/Console
Adventure 1: (Sonic)
Emerald Coast- 1:04/1:07
Not sure on windy valley, because I have 1:38 and it seems impossible to get lower, since marth is whoarding strats :p
Icecap: 0:10/0:11, Possibly a very high 0:09 for TAS
Red Mountain: 0:50/ 0:57
Sky deck: 1:06/1:13 I really don't see how a long, complex tough level like this could be anywhere near maxed on console.
Lost world: 1:05/1:11
Final egg: 0:06/0:07
I also think Perfect Chaos could be done in 0:59 if it's possible to do a direct head glitch for all 6 hits, if not then 1:03 or so.
Adventure 2:
Metal Harbor 2- Low 0:30/Very high 0:30- I don't think I lost more than a second on my run, and 0:30 could happen but it would pretty much be pure luck.
Green forest 2: 0:35/0:37- I could probably do :37, if everything would ever fall into place.
Iron gate1: 1:04/1:07- it's nearly impossible to get a flawless run on this.
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In Huge Crisis 1, Blaze can cut a ton of time if she can ever make it over the one wall. Always a few pixels short of making it.
Dude I did that already (as did Skylights but I had to tell him :P).
He seems to have found something else, judging by his comment, though! /me goes to look himself
Water Palace 1 - Neither times are going much lower unless either character can somehow jump on top of the loop that appears at around 0:30, but I don't think it's possible at this point.
Actually, you can, as Sonic (assuming it's the loop I'm thinking of). Land on the start of the rail that leads up towards the loop, going slowly, do three trail tricks, then boost up and jump at the highest point of the slope. Having done three tricks makes you go faster so that you can just about make it on-top of the loop.
However, as far as I've been able to tell it's not faster. Given that there's a big drop on the other side of the loop, going over the top doesn't save any time, and the time invested to get over it makes it slower.
I'm not sure what you're referring to about the luck in HC2. If it's the pistons, there's actually no luck involved at all: you can manipulate their sequencing by starting the level at a different point during the opening "silhouette" animation.
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In Huge Crisis 1, Blaze can cut a ton of time if she can ever make it over the one wall. Always a few pixels short of making it.
Dude I did that already (as did Skylights but I had to tell him :P).
Wow, things have really changed since I first found out about the shortcut.
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Actually, you can, as Sonic (assuming it's the loop I'm thinking of). Land on the start of the rail that leads up towards the loop, going slowly, do three trail tricks, then boost up and jump at the highest point of the slope. Having done three tricks makes you go faster so that you can just about make it on-top of the loop.
However, as far as I've been able to tell it's not faster. Given that there's a big drop on the other side of the loop, going over the top doesn't save any time, and the time invested to get over it makes it slower.
Aww :( I was hoping that you could get on top of the other wall so that you could avoid going into the water a second time... Guess that idea wasn't good.
The potential Blaze shortcut I'm thinking of is actually an extension of one of the ones you found originally, Crowbar. Not the second, but the first. See if you can do it 8D
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I've found what you're thinking of, but I don't think it's gonna be useful: even if you launch yourself right to the top of the screen off the significant rail, by the time you get to the wall you're below the level of the top of it. :( Pity, because that would've been a beyond l33t shortcut.
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SA2
MHa1 - 1:14
FR1 - 2:15
FR5 - 2:25
EE1 - 2:25
PC1 - 1:54
WJ1 - 1:33
IG1 - 1:06
PL1 - 1:31
HB1 - 1:46
SH3 - 13.99
MHa3 - 23.75
PL2 - 59.99
LC1 - 2:05
WB1 - 1:24
CW1 - 4:34
GH - 25.99
Total Time - 135:00.00
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Just thought I'd make my guesses on maxed times for Eternal Engine...
EE1[DC]: 2:24.75 (checks: 0:21.00, 1:01.75, 1:15.00, 1:38.75, 2:07.50)
EE1[GC]: 2:36.50 (checks: 0:21.00, 1:01.75, 1:15.00, 1:38.75, 2:08.00)
EE2: 1:22.75
EE3: 0:59.50 (0:57.00 if I can get my strat to work)
EE5[DC]: 2:25.75 (checks: 0:21.75, 1:02.00, 1:39.50, 2:08.50)
EE5[GC]: 2:38:25 (checks: 0:21.75: 1:02.00, 1:39.50, 2:08.50)
...maybe Meteor Herd 5 and Final Rush 3 as well... >_>
MHe5[DC]: 0:37.90
(EDIT) MHe5[GC]: 0:40.70 0:39.90 (I've gotten 40.54, so away with my last guess!)
FR3: 1:55.50
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I wouldn't put the MHe5 advantage that high; maybe 1-1.5 seconds. On a good run you'd hit the rock while still moving at high speed, and remember there's no SU animation where you're not making horizontal movement.
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Well, it usually takes me about 2-3 seconds to destroy the barrier on GC, because Knuckles can't just punch the rock straight into the barrier because there's another object in the way that will break the rock before it gets to its destination. I usually stop and punch from a small distance to push it forward a little and then punch it into the barrier.
Anyway, my original estimation for MHe5[GC] was 40.25; don't really know why I changed it. :/
EDIT: You'll lose some speed after collecting the first emerald, though, because if you try to punch after changing directions, Knuckles will do a SU (or at least that's what always happens to me).
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Cannon's Core 1 and 3, from what I can remember:
T 0:09:20, E 0:41:20, R 0:51:30, K 1:12:80, S 1:18:15
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For Circus Park (Hero), the max time is most likely 1:54-1:55.
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Somewhere along the lines of that. Sometime this week, I'm gonna try to aim for that.
And also I think near 7-8 seconds is max for Lethal Highway (Hero) without using the 0-second trick.
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Riders:
Egg Factory - 2:00, basically
There are a few others I could list but I'm kinda lazy. :P
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New information on Circus Park (Hero) max time!
SJ just got 1:51, and he says 1:48 is as low as it can go. If you've seen his CP partial video, it shows how to get past the first ball robot without using a gun. Using this method, 1:48 can be achieved. But it sure as hell won't be me. I'm retiring from that mission.
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that or either 1:49 without the partial vid help. I regret finding that out, but it helped me beat circus park normal by 1 sec :/
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Cannon's Core can go under 1:15
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Cannon's Core 1 and 3, from what I can remember:
T 0:09:20, E 0:41:20, R 0:51:30, K 1:12:80, S 1:18:15
cut another 1.5 secs off rouge's for catching the early cycle. that's about all I can see done. Your knux section does look about perfect. also with a good somersault jump you can get a 5.25 long sonic section. so that's like .1.
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8.44 Lethal Highway Hero. Plain and simple, this is close to (if not) perfect, and the only possible way any faster can be done is timing beyond belief for the final hit. Even then, it'd only go down to 8.43, which seems insanely unlikely. Unless a way is found to control Shadow from the beginning and be able to skip the dash pads, the strat has been perfected.
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Death Chamber 1 revised prediction: 7.95
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well since I know so much more about SADX and SA2b now I can give some really good maxes that I feel are accurate, TAS/Console style
Sadx:
emerald coast: 0:59/1:03- tons of tricks can be used in a TAS that I cant see being done consistantly otherwise.
windy valley: 1:17/1:19-
Casinopolis: 0:08/0:09, S3k's 9 sec run seemed perfect to me, so im doubting sub 9 can happen on console.
speed highway: 1:02/1:04- A flawless beginning and clean act 3 should easily get 1:04, a TAS would most likely use the same route just perfected.
The rest: dont know dont care!
SA2B:
CityE1- 1:34/1:38- OR 1:25/1:31 Theres a trick I know of that I cant pull off that might be possible in a TAS, which saves around 8-9 seconds, so I put two different set of maxes since I dont know if it actually is possible or not.
CityE2- probably 33.50 or something but who cares about this mission?
CityE5- 1:36/1:40 OR 1:28/1:35- the big time saver trick will work here also as long as it really is possible, otherwise this level is so unmaxed its just crazy, the record on it really sucks but I cant im prove it unless I get better at the level because im not very good at it right now
Metal harbor 1- 1:14/1:15 This level is really short and has almost no room for error, the only reason I cant get 1:15 is because I really suck at getting a perfect rocket and good ending(ill die or hit a wall 70% of the time trying to do the rocket) which is why 1:15 would be a great record if someone could get it.
MH3- 0:22/0:23 again, no one really cares about this mission im sure
MH5- 1:16/1:17- my run wasnt quite flawless, but close. and like Mission1 my pathetic sucess rate with the rocket makes me not want to play it over and over like i can do on some levels
green hill: 0:23/24.96 I just cannot bare to play this level anymore because it hurts my hand..ALOT after 10 minutes, 24 would be a GREAT time that will more than likely never be beaten, and im sure a TAS could just barely break out a 0:23.
CrazyG1: 1:38/1:41- my run was pretty good, though SS101's 1:41 sounds like a perfect insane run, that is more than likely maxed due to the slight toughishness of this level, i dont think I could beat that, ever :(
CrazyG5: 1:48/1:55- yoshifan's run was nothing special, it was good yeah, for such a hard and precisionated level seeing as he didnt use checkpoint abuse, but thats about it, seeing as its FAR from max, but im doubting anyone will care enough about this level to push it to the max(I know I dont, nor have the skill to get a flawless 1:54-1:56)
PyramidC1: 1:49:1/55: this is one of those levels where the TAS's perfected stuff really saves alot of time, theres tons of really cool tricks but theyre just really hard to put them all in 1 run, 1:55 would be semi-flawless on console, my 1:57 is pretty average.
PC5: 1:54/2:04 if there was ever a level that will never be anywhere near max on console its this, theres just WAY to many high precisioned tricks that must be used, THEN on top of that you have that stupid :omgyousuck: second green key that has a 20% chance of being thrown right the first time for reasons im unsure of, all in all making sub 2:05 really hard even though its still "bad"
Radical highway1: 1:40/1:43- I hate trying to max this because on the last loop theres a 50% chance that i will go straight up through the top of it, for no reason whatssoever and it seems to be pure luck.
RH5- 1:43/1:45- kinda guessing here, 1:45 would be possible if you can time the ending right, otherwise 1:48 is about perfect.
RH3- 0:59/1:00 as in M1 the beginning can only be done so fast,(which is why the tas is so "bad" compared to console) I cant get 1:00 though because I suck at jumping to chao which ruins everything.
The rest: id tell you if i knew :P
and I dont wanna hear any thread revival complaints, cause RPG(or maybe it was SM) said its fine if its revalent
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some heroes ness since I too know more about it.
Team Sonic only
Seaside Hill: I've had some odd crap happen when I would play this stage. Not only have I gotten tossed out of loops, but I've also ran THROUGH loops clear to the other side without stopping...only in this place and only on 2 specific loops. I'd say 2:40-2:45 and below is max.
Grand Metropolis: probably a good 2:33, or is there was a way to glitch through doors that would get it lower.
Bingo Highway: 3:20-3:22 probably...I dont see much else to get this lower than that since this place is pretty straightforward, but having you do the bingo slides perfectly would be awesome.
Bullet Station: straight forward place as well, but the cannons can fuck up your run pretty hard due to your partners being a nuisense (sp?). 3:50-3:55.
Hang Castle: 3:05, anything near there would be plausible without any goofups.
Mystic Mansion: I've been meaning to do this over again, but man this can be a chore and I consider this harder to do than with dark since you have to constantly keep going and hope to god one of your partners dont screw you over. 3:52-3:55.
Egg Fleet: there might be some cuts I dont know about or that aren't utilized well, but this place can be super annoying with everything going on and your partners...again :/. 4:40-4:45...maybe.
Final Fortress: well eredani has gotten it down even further than I did, but there's one cut that is really hard for them to do that dark can do easily do to character size. 3:35-3:38 would be my guess.
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I have another Shadow one to announce.
Circus Park (Hero): 1:32. Since I can see several flaws in my 1:35.99 run (and seeing SJ's 1:35.70 time), I can remove the flaws in my mind and narrow everything down to absolute perfection with a time near 1:32. Unfortunately, this level does not look like it will be able to dip below 1:30 unless something huge is discovered, which is highly unlikely. I don't know if the route SJ took was exactly the same as mine, but I can assume he did so.
edit: Forget everything I said before. After replaying some key parts of past runs in my head, I've been able to calculate how much time could be saved compared to what I did in my very high 1:35 run and have determined that sub-1:30 can be done. It'd require an absolutely perfect run though, which, based on the way the level is designed and the strat used, will be extremely difficult.
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I just got around to watching the Casinopolis video. I expected a new shortcut, but
it turned out that this is just a really great run, like about the lowest I thought was possible.
I still wonder if this new shortcut will work. 8 seconds, maybe?
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yeah the two 9 sec runs on casinpolis were just pure awesome, 8 seconds is "possible" for sure, but i dunno about on console, it would require my general "Dont stop until you have what you want" determination and S3k/DarSonic's skills heh, I suck soo much at casinopolis in general its pathetic.
also I know this wont help you now marth since you got a DC and all, but do you know about the new 16 second GC casinopolis strategy? :P
also SJ ive had TONNNNNNNNS of weird stuff happen on seaside hill sonic as well, is anyone crazy enough to max it? XD
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Nonononono, wait.
First of all, about GC, you mean jumping off the dome thing above the entrance to the
Card and Pinball game, right? I remember that someone suggested that to me long ago.
I got 18 or something, and I barely tried. 15 is probably about max there, as I've said.
About DC, I meant that Sonic3Knuckles already did nearly max. I can't see 8 seconds
being possible at all, unless you mean 8.9 or something like that. But that's with that path.
What if there's another way to get through the level? I experimented with new tricks,
but they didn't work. But there's another one that almost worked by accident!
And it'll be hard to do, but if I can make it work, it might cut down my time even more.
What's that Windy Valley Tails time about? Was that the Chankast joystick glitch problem
I heard about? I can't see 17 seconds being possible. As I said, I thought about 20 was perfect.
Unless DC has some different death lines or something.
Oh, and speaking of those "death lines" or whatever (more like death planes),
I'd considered making a video of WV-Sonic a while ago, but I haven't gotten around to it.
I'm still not sure, though. If I do that, I might as well record Sonic Heroes (Egg Fleet with Rose).
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also SJ ive had TONNNNNNNNS of weird stuff happen on seaside hill sonic as well, is anyone crazy enough to max it? XD
now if only you can get it to work in your favor
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no way id get 1:37 on ce or buy shadow and get 8.43 on lethal highway before I get even sub 2:50 on seaside hill cus its impossible to not have something go wrong
and speaking of that game 1:20 on seaside hill is max for team rose, I didnt know about using big in the very beginning to speed you up when I did 1:22, 1:20 would be insane though and 1:21 would probably stand for long time if ever obtained by someone. SJ why dont you get 1:21(or atleast beat eredani) 1:25 is terrible for someone as good as you and I know you can do much better.
and marth I was saying 8 seconds(8.99 or something) is probably possilble doing what S3K did on his 9.56 run(DarkSonic94 has 9.34) but it would be almost pixel perfect and would require probably 100-200 hours of constant play, aka it more than likely wont happen. Id try, but it took me 100 tries just to get a 13 because i miss the capsule every.single.time. I probably waste 3 seconds just trying to carefully hit the thing and still miss XD
I dont know about that guy windy valley sky deck and speedhighway tails times, but I think he cheated cause I play sky deck WAY better than him but I barely get 24 and he got 22 :/
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I cant stand playing as team rose paragod...I just dont like how they play.
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Adding on to the Cannon's Core predictions made earlier:
From 10.24 start, I had a 41.97 fail on Eggman because I didn't hover-jump high enough, but it definitely seemed possible to clear that. If 9.20 Tails really is possible, then Eggman can be done by 40.94 at worst. I don't think 10.10 is a clear for Rouge, as the block overlaps the near end of the tunnel at the time...based on my pausing, a wait of 5 more frames is necessary, putting Rouge at 51.12. For Knuckles, I can find 1.1 seconds of improvements to make on a run stretching 52.84 to 1:12.60, meaning that an optimal run would reach the end of part 4 at 1:09.79, and then the current best known segment for Sonic is 5.25 meaning a total of 1:15.04, give or take a few frames, unless some new trick is found to break things even more.
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along time ago supersonic101 said:
MHa1 - 1:14
a month or two ago paragod said:
Metal harbor 1: 1:14 TAS/ 1:15 console
a couple days ago paragod got: 1:13
XD
ah the wonder of finding new strategies.......
okay enough of that, to get to my point I got a couple SA2 updates, posted in the same style as always just without so many comments. (TAS/Console) if you forgot
Metal Harbor:
M1- 1:11/1:12 (All I can say on 1:12 is goodluck)
M2- 0:29/30.40
M3- 0:23/0:23
M5- 1:13/1:15
Pyramid Cave:
M1- 1:45/1:52
M2- 0:19/0:20
M3- 1:47/1:55
M5- 1:53/2:02
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Hmmm well I think I found a new strat stat whatever in Egg saucer for Adv 2.
I can say that the fastest it can be is around 16 or even 15 seconds. pm me if you wanna know how or whatever.