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Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: Parax on September 13, 2012, 07:34:50 am

Title: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Parax on September 13, 2012, 07:34:50 am: TSC Race Night is back! This weekend, we'll be racing through the classic Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sound interesting? Read on for details!

The race will be held Saturday, September 15 at 5:00pm EDT. Anyone can participate! You'll need an IRC client. Connect to irc.speeddemosarchive.com and join #speedrunslive at some point before 5, and then wait for us to begin.

But that's not all. SpinDashMaster is introducing a ranking system for TSC races and other live competition that he calls TSC Race Night 24/7.

(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/spindashmaster/trn247-1.png)

Did you do really awesome in a race and you want to brag to everyone about how epic you are? Then this is for you! TRN247 will provide you with signature images to be used on forums to show off your race prowess. Mind this isn't limited to Race Night, you can race with others or even compete over netplay anytime you want; hence the 24/7 part. Race Night will be worth double points, however, so you'll want to join this anyway. Check these threads for more info on 24/7:

Basics of TRN247 (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?board=153.0)
TSC Race Night 1 signups (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5424.0)

Remember: This Saturday at 5PM. Be there. Or else we'll sic the Beast on you.

edit: Race Night is over. Click here for results. (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5427.msg56647#msg56647)
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Luxray on September 13, 2012, 07:36:21 am: ~~5PM what time zone?~~

I'm a fucking tard.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: flying fox on September 13, 2012, 08:10:35 am: That would also be 10pm for the Brits and 7am for the Aussies.

Here are the goals for Sonic 3 and Knuckles. The one that gets the most votes will be the one that gets raced.

1) Beat the game as Sonic
2) Beat the game as Tails (3)
3) Beat the game as Knuckles
4) Beat the game as Sonic glitchless (4)
5) Beat the game as Tails glitchless
6) Beat the game as Knuckles
7) Competition Mode Grand Prix (No Items)

One vote per person please. If anyone else can think of any other goals just post them here.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Strong Bad on September 13, 2012, 09:18:49 am: I will not be able to attend. Not that it matters, as I don't really know the &K part of the game anyway.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: yse on September 13, 2012, 10:12:40 am: That's OK, you don't know the S3 part of the game either. ZING~
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Strong Bad on September 13, 2012, 10:52:30 am: Hey Zeupar, mike89 is bullying me on the forums. Can you ban him for me?
(http://twitchtvfaces.com/images/MVGame.png)
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2012, 12:21:09 pm: I'm tempted to join in even though I'm likely to come last ;)

Vote: (4)
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Luxray on September 13, 2012, 01:13:58 pm: Voting 2, gonna try to do this.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Telnaior on September 13, 2012, 01:18:59 pm: Voting 4, I'll fail miserably at 6 (but then again, I'll probably fail miserably at all of them having not played S3K in a long while), and ff tells me I can't vote for 5 as well.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: flying fox on September 13, 2012, 01:27:52 pm: Quote from: Emerl on September 13, 2012, 01:18:59 pm
Voting 4, I'll fail miserably at 6 (but then again, I'll probably fail miserably at all of them having not played S3K in a long while), and ff tells me I can't vote for 5 as well.

Yeah that's my fault, I thought I mentioned the one vote per person in my earlier post and I didn't. I have now though >_>
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: TimpZ on September 13, 2012, 03:16:21 pm: Obviously I'm going to vote for (2), Tails ;p.

However just in case a glitchless category win you should set the standard for it. There's already a definition on SRL that I think HDL and Werster came up with but I'm still kind of confused whether e.g. the over-the-top tactic as Tails in HC1 would be considered a glitch or not. The definition on SRL doesn't include stuff like skipping the IC1 boss either which I personally would consider a glitch big time.

A more detailed description would be appreciated for an official race.

PS: Are you going to host the races in any way on the TSC twitch channel?
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: flying fox on September 13, 2012, 03:19:38 pm: I forgot about that because I haven't been to SRL for almost a year I think. I shall have a look at it later tonight.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Strong Bad on September 13, 2012, 03:38:36 pm: TimpZ, doesn't IC1 boss skip require, uh, slope glitch? Or is this another method?
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Parax on September 13, 2012, 03:45:17 pm: Quote from: HyperSonic7701 on September 13, 2012, 09:15:33 am
Quote
The race will be held Saturday, August 15 at 5:00pm EST.

Protip guys, if you're going to set a date, at least know what month you're in >_>

Just so we're on the same page, this is the month of September <_<

lol whoops. Fixed.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: TimpZ on September 13, 2012, 04:01:59 pm: Quote from: Strong Bad on September 13, 2012, 03:38:36 pm
TimpZ, doesn't IC1 boss skip require, uh, slope glitch? Or is this another method?

You can just jump over the boss with at least Tails and Knuckles.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Cream147 on September 13, 2012, 04:14:01 pm: Unfortunately I won't be able to participate this weekend. Maybe that's fortunate however, as Sonic 3 & Knuckles is probably the Sonic game I'm weakest at (that I own). Good luck all and make sure that Sonic 1 comes up soon! I won't vote as I won't be participating.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Zeupar on September 13, 2012, 04:49:51 pm: Quote from: Strong Bad on September 13, 2012, 10:52:30 am
Hey Zeupar, mike89 is bullying me on the forums. Can you ban him for me?
(http://twitchtvfaces.com/images/MVGame.png)

Cyberbullying banned players is encouraged.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: SpinDashMaster on September 13, 2012, 08:40:48 pm: (http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/spindashmaster/trn247-1.png)

Umbreon, make sure you copy this post except for this line and paste it into the first post.

It's time for me to go into deep detail about TRN247 and what exactly it entails.

When you sign up in the TRN24/7 forum for the games you'd like to play in, we'll issue you a ratings card, much like this one:
(http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h376/spindashmaster/S3Krankingsample-1.png)

which you can use as a forum signature anywhere on the internet. These images will be hosted on a special FTP server, provided by GerbilSoft, which will automatically update as your rating changes. Pretty neat, huh?

Everyone's rating will start at 1500. You will gain and lose points based on the skill level of your opponents -- eventually causing the metagame to sort the crowd into segregated ranks. The color of your rating number will indicate your "rank" and will change as you cross the thresholds for those ranks.

Racing individual levels or playing over Kaillera will be worth half the normal point value. Low risk, low reward, but you can do a lot of these and very often.

Racing full games (marathons), regardless of the type of marathon, will be worth normal point value.

Any TSC Race Night feature will be worth double point value, so be especially sure you participate every saturday!

To ease the process of integrating this system, we will add ratings cards for each game as we feature them at TSC Race Night. That means for now, we'll only be featuring S3K. On the Next TSC Race Night, I'll unlock that game's ratings card.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Alondite on September 13, 2012, 11:55:34 pm: I wish I knew how to TA S3K, because I love it and would like to be a part of this. However, I don't, so my vote has to go for #4.

As for the 23/7 concept, I think that relying on full runs for significant point swings is a bad idea. A lot of people aren't going to want to sit down and replay games in their entirety a number of times. Unless each game is only going to be played once (which doesn't sound like the case and is a terrible idea anyway) people are going to be replaying games, and it's going to get repetitive and tiresome.

I think that the standard for points should be something like one full zone (all acts), and be able to break it into individual acts, multiple zones, or for a large number of points, the full game.

Also maybe something like posting "challenges"? For example, posting an entire run and allowing people to try to beat the time, or total score or number of rings or whatever. Obviously working out the scoring would be the issue there, and posting challenges of single acts is rather pointless since that's already the purpose of the charts. That way, the competition can more easily by "24/7" by not requiring both parties to participate simultaneously. Maybe integrating the league in such a fashion? Just an idea.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: werster on September 14, 2012, 12:38:15 am: Competition Mode Grand Prix (No Items) is the easiest goal for those who think the game itself is too rough.

Quote from: TimpZ on September 13, 2012, 03:16:21 pm
However just in case a glitchless category win you should set the standard for it. There's already a definition on SRL that I think HDL and Werster came up with but I'm still kind of confused whether e.g. the over-the-top tactic as Tails in HC1 would be considered a glitch or not. The definition on SRL doesn't include stuff like skipping the IC1 boss either which I personally would consider a glitch big time.

HDL and I made those rules in about a minute, with the basis of "if it makes sense based on the skill set you are given, it's not a glitch." IC1 Boss skip isn't considered a glitch under those rules because all you have to do is fly or glide + climb, which is obviously in your skill set. By this definition, going across a roof is also permitted, as there is no boundary you have to cross to get onto the roof in HC1.

The other general rule set I've heard of would be something along the lines of "if it looks outrageous to a viewer, ban it" in which case it obviously would be banned, because your Act 2 time is 0:00. Obviously a rule set would need to be made, and it can be whatever it needs to be, but a think those are the two best general guidelines to getting to them in a game as touchy as this.

Vote: (2)
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: SpinDashMaster on September 14, 2012, 04:03:10 am: Don't forget the individual level races are also permitted for half-value.

The whole "vote for the race" thing sorta went over my head before discussing rules. There's no choice but to roll with it now, but for the sake of consistent competiton we need a clear ruleset defining what is allowed and what isn't. A comprehensive rules list will be mocked up for reference (and will be primarily based on the Competition Rules -- but will have fine-tuned additions that will be customized for this system) as soon as the forum gets unbroken.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Combo on September 14, 2012, 04:56:29 am: Voting for 4. HARDMODE
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Cream147 on September 14, 2012, 06:14:37 am: Trying to make rules for a glitchless run I can see being a total nightmare. We pretty much end up being forced into doing one of two things - making a rule for every potential 'glitch', which isn't great because there are so many, and every one will be a debating point, or we say follow your intuition essentially, which is woolly at best, and may lead to different interpretations from different people. I would say that using intuition, it is clear to me that the boss skip IS a glitch.

Perhaps a more possible idea would be something like a 'zipless' run. It's not quite as good as a total glitchless run but I'm sure it eliminates some things (though admittedly I don't really know the S3&K glitches well, I'm pretty sure some of them are zips). I'm not trying to shoot the idea of glitchless racing in the foot, on the contrary, I really like the idea as I do grow weary of the amount of glitches necessary in speedrunning. However, we need to make sure it's actually feasible before we start using it.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Bilan on September 14, 2012, 09:30:53 am: Quote from: SpinDashMaster on September 13, 2012, 08:40:48 pm
Racing individual levels or playing over Kaillera will be worth half the normal point value. Low risk, low reward, but you can do a lot of these and very often.

Does that mean the system can be gamed and you can (albeit slowly) advance to the #1 rank purely by playing a piss easy level like EH1 over and over?
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Telnaior on September 14, 2012, 09:36:04 am: Only if you can find an opponent that you can consistently beat that will also race often enough with you to let you beat them enough to do this.
Also, this practice is universally b& on any rating system ever where it could be a problem, and I would be very surprised if TSC was an exception to that.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: SpinDashMaster on September 14, 2012, 09:45:49 am: ^This. Also if you play over Kaillera, .krec recordings will be REQUIRED. There's no reason not to use them.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Alondite on September 14, 2012, 10:52:02 am: Quote
Does that mean the system can be gamed and you can (albeit slowly) advance to the #1 rank purely by playing a piss easy level like EH1 over and over?

I think adjusting points based on the skill of your opponent prevents that.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: flying fox on September 14, 2012, 04:07:06 pm: Quote from: werster on September 14, 2012, 12:38:15 am
Competition Mode Grand Prix (No Items) is the easiest goal for those who think the game itself is too rough.

Added to the goals list, so if anyone wants to change your vote please say so.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: SpinDashMaster on September 14, 2012, 04:53:42 pm: Remember that players are still able to play individual acts/zones for half the marathon value. Think carefully about that: 2 acts/zones worth of points = 1 marathon worth of points. As illustrated herein, the incentive clearly lies at individual level (IL) competition already.

By the way, part of the reason I keep insisting that leagues are already covered are the fact that for IL competiton, players don't have to necessarily "race". They will have the option to race if they want, but they can also play in a "deadline" mode where you set a deadline for yourselves and submit your best time before that deadline.

Additionally, races don't have to be 1v1 -- my rankings formulae are built to support massively-multiplayer matches, while still being simplistic enough that even a non-judge can verify what he/she would gain/lose from a match.
Title: Re: The Return of TSC Race Night!
Post by: Cream147 on September 16, 2012, 08:54:09 am: Ok, so I think given the layout of TRN247, it would be a good idea to start organised weekly(?) deadline-based racing ala flyby's league but instead of having a league, the results of the races simply count towards your TRN247 rankings. All we'd need is a thread and then someone who will choose different levels/zones/games to do. Each week there should be a healthy mixture of 2D and 3D races (perhaps 2-3 of each, depends on interest), and I was thinking perhaps one marathon-qualifying race of each type. These are just ideas I'm chucking at the wall really though. Who would be up for this, and who would be up for running this?