The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => Beef => Topic started by: P.P.A. on February 26, 2008, 01:29:13 pm
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Continued from http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=3155.0
I know I already made such a thread a while ago with little success, however the recent events in Sonic R competition make another discussion on this topic necessary. After Etch's discovery, there are now 2+ courses that require breaking out of bounds for insanely low lap times to be competitive. Resort Island and Radical City in all modes and Regal Ruin and Radiant Emerald in reverse time attack. Seeing how the game only has 5 courses playable in 4 modes each, HALF THE GAME is already broken.
Some will now say that even though these glitches are pretty crazy, they're still not game-breaking, there's skill required to pull them off and still leave space for competition. Why yes, I cannot deny that. I have a few counter arguments though. For once, playing with those glitches is not fun anymore. It's a chore. Groudon plans on stopping to compete, Kmacc has expressed numerous times how he is totally contra all this stuff and I struggle to get back into the game with such freaky grameplay awaiting me. Of course, fun is, especially at TSC's level of skill, not an argument (even though I am convinced a lot of people still enjoy competing in the games they like). Now another thing is that this way of playing Sonic R is far removed from the intended gameplay. Okay, a lot of players (of all games) here use techniques that the developers would have never thought of, but still, I'd consider this problem here to be a lot more weighty than other glitch exploits. My last point would be how similar glitches in other games are handled: I remember this glitch in SA2 for Rouge's or Tails' highway stages I think, that through some exploit allowed you to get times of a few seconds. This one, to my knowledge is banned - why not these here too then? These cases aren't that different, are they?
Or let's take a look at mariokart64.com, the biggest Mario Kart competition site. Of course, this isn't TSC - but it's about funracers, and I think Sonic R is more similar to Mario Kart in gameplay than to for example Sonic Triple Trouble or Sonic Heroes (well no surprise, it is a racer after all). Anyway, mariokart64.com has split charts for runs using shortcuts and ones without them. Shortcuts being defined as breaking out of bounds (or jumping over them), utilizing Lakitu to carry the player further or skipping entire laps - in short, things the developers didn't implement on purpose/tried to stop the player from doing. While some of said "shortcuts" seem a bit too minor to me to forbid, overall I support this action for the reasons stated further above.
Now, my suggestions for a solution would be:
- Ban of the techniques in question
- Separate charts for hax and non-hax
- Ban of said techniques, but addition of freestyle charts that allow them
- Let them slip, but add freestyle charts where they're disallowed
Your thoughts?
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The sa2 example you mention was applicable only to Route 280's mission 2. One of the techniques specifically banned at TSC is restarting the timer after you have competed a level. This manfiests itself in various ways throughout SA2, and is clearly not an acceptable technique. You can pause and restart after completing the level, on the right frame, and regardless of skill level, you will get a time under a second. The technique you mentioned in sa2 was a version of this. In Route 280, the banned technique was using a speedup you had carried from earlier in the level at the exact same time you got your 100th ring, all while facing into the water. This would kill you and complete the objective at the same time, restarting the clock, and effectively making the entire level irrelevant in the eyes of a 1 second glitch to restart the level.
The trick had nothing to do with an out of bounds glitch, and had almost nothing to do with actually speedrunning the level. What you describe in SR are glitches that allow you to get fast times if pulled off correctly.. but they are still dependent entirely on skill and speed. They really -are- that different from the route 280 example you mentioned, and to me should not be any more banned than the various ridiculous glitches in sonic 1 (which, of course aren't banned).
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Sonic 1 glitches are pro! Marble 1-3 can die in a pit of fire though >_>
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I haven't played Sonic R yet, but I've seen those hax videos of Radical City and it reminds me of Mario Kart 64 as well, mostly Wario Stadium. There, you can hop over a wall on the left of the starting line to reach a section much later on in the level and then hop back to the finish line as a lap. That requires skill (I can't do it consistantly) yet is separate from the normal play. I would go with major glitches (probably only for Resort Island and Radical City) be for freestyle.
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I really think something should be done about all of this. Yeah it takes skill to do these glitches, but it takes more skill to go around the course fully. A big factor though that makes this really annoying is the fact that it isn't even fun. Most people are opposed to it, and they tend to lose interest in the game because of it. I know these shortcuts make me lose interest a bit, and many others feel the same.
PPA is right, half the game is broken basically. For races; All of Resort Island, All of Radical City, Regal Ruin Reverse are hugely broken. Radiant Emerald is broken too where you can fall off the stage and save time in either GP, TA or Reverse, it's just less substantial. Reactive Factory - You can go through the wall near the end (the beginning on reverse) which also saves like half a second.
All in all, the game is very broken. Eventually it will get to the point where all racing times are done with glitches going outside of the actual level, and it will not only be boring a pointless, but extremely tedious. I don't see why it's a huge problem to have two seperate charts, like PPA said - A regular times chart and a freestyle chart for the glitch times.
I'm so tempted to purposely mess this game up to the point where we need split charts lol.
@person above me: And as of now I'd say Regal Ruin reverse should be under there as well, because you can get under 5 second laps on that.
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I'll say it again; ridiculous shortcuts that are relatively unfun, yet skip almost all the level, stay unbanned. See final egg and casinopolis sonic in SADX, about half of the new sonic 1 times, oil ocean 2, eternal engine 1 in sa2b, and various other examples I'm sure I missed. Glitches are not disallowed, and never have been, unless they remove all ability to compete or provide potential for infinite scores/times. SR shortcuts are still incredibly competitive, and take huge amounts of skill as well. I don't see reason to ban, myself.
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I think that right now the most relevant example in this argument is Balloon Park in the S3 Time Attack section:
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_3/freestyle/balloon_park/single_lap
Now, in this circumstance there was a glitch very similar to the one encountered in Sonic R; you could literally go over the top of the level and run across it for the other 4 laps. Not only was this strat ridiculous, it also was entirely not interesting or fun. It was tedious.
Not only was it tedious, but it also went against the original point of the game. Because of this, it was moved to a freestyle division. Note how there is no huge tie for first place: it is still quite a challenge to get a top-tier time on this.
Given the similarities to this chart, I would say move the current charts to freestyle.
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Funny you say that PPA because I am from mariokart64.com
It was Kmacc who recruited me for Sonic R.
I run the mkds site and at least played enough to rank well there and on mk64 but the main problem with non-sc charts is that you have to make sure everyone is following the rules.
It's easy to race a good 3lap if you time the sc's so it looks like a normal run.
If this site is about getting the fastest times, just leave them there or face the complexities of keeping the integrity of two charts. Either way, you got to get the job done right.
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I think the technique should be moved to freestyle charts, as well. After playing excessively one night to get the glitch to work in Regal Ruin a few times, I can say it definitely takes away from the fun factor, and without a doubt discourages people. Since a large portion of the game is affected compared to just one or two levels, but it still requires skill, it seems like something that should be moved to freestyle.
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The thing about this is that it is completely ruining the point of competition. Instead of cutting corners and quickening routes, you are heading for the break as fast as you can. And then, laps are completely pointless because you simply go around in a circle >_> This is why mariokart64.com has separated the glitched charts from the normal ones.
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More often than not the best place to actually facilitate discussion like this is in the IRC channel. My opinion is that the charts stay as they are (for reasons already stated by Stefan) but I can be swayed.
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Just wondering for statistical reasons, what other sonic game has the highest percentage of levels completely ruined to the point where Resort Island and Radical City have gone?
Just an overview for Sonic R:
Resort Island: 6/6 Ruined
Radical City: 6/6 Ruined
Regal Ruin: 2/6 Ruined (Reverse)
Reactive Factory: So far over the past two days, I've semi-ruined 2, and a 3rd can come soon. If I can do this all quick enough, I can do the 3laps and make it 6/6 semi-ruined.
Radiant Emerald: 6/6 Semi-Ruined really, people just need runs where they fall oob. I might be able to get sub-3 second laps here and such, I have to experiment.
So all in all, you can say 22/30, or about 73% of the game is excluding tag and balloons is stupid. It has a definate potential of 26/30. I'm also going to try and ruin Regal Ruin completely to make everything filled with glitches and shortcuts.
If this doesn't make an eventual freestyle chart, then nothing will. I'm sure though that if all of this glitches happen and there's no freestyle chart, then competition will drop to nearly nothing, because nobody wants to go through all of this tedious work. So either there will be freestyle charts, or everybody will completely hate this game.
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I already completely hate this game. It used to be fun, but now it's all about who can get out of bounds faster and take the most broken route possible for the rest of the track. Now, since you're trying to completely break the game, I'll soon have zero interest in anything in the game.
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Now, since you're trying to completely break the game, I'll soon have zero interest in anything in the game.
Kmacc was not the first to submit sc times here.
You can't just let someone climb the ranks out of protest on how a course is done. I really don't mind the sc's and glitches, this is just player preference. If it's allowed on one place then everything else is a go imo.
He can't take all the credit either, we have been finding a lot of cool stuff. ^^
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Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?
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Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?
sdj kept breaking levels, no point to just sit there and let him get them all =P
I made a video demonstrating the strat I came up with. I got much better times now though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WSlnfOfmwaY
Well, there goes RF and RR completely. XD
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Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?
sdj kept breaking levels, no point to just sit there and let him get them all =P
I made a video demonstrating the strat I came up with. I got much better times now though.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WSlnfOfmwaY
Well, there goes RF and RR completely. XD
Could you please upload the video...
I'm So Curious...
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RI: Completely Destroyed.
RC: Completely Destroyed.
RR: Completely Destroyed.
RF: Completely Destroyed.
RE: Semi-Destroyed; for now.
Have we ruined this game enough for all of you now? Good. Lets just all compete in tag and balloons now!
Good job to Etch btw, finding most of the glitches! =]
Well, all the current active submitters for the game are helping to further break the game.
Also, since I got no answer before, how is Amy useful on Resort Island?
I do this only to get some kind of split charts or something here. If we don't get split charts then idk.
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Vids of RR and RF plz (and RE if someone can vid the breakout)
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ok, everyone should now say his opinion of what should be done so we can bug the responsibles about it.
I'm fine with either a ban of OOB or freestyle charts for the glitches. But not as it is now. :(
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Freestyle the majorly glitched charts in my opinion. You could possibly allow glitches that simply create a shortcut in the level but do not allow you to break out and circle the finish line.
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Freestyle the majorly glitched charts in my opinion. You could possibly allow glitches that simply create a shortcut in the level but do not allow you to break out and circle the finish line.
Yeah, that's what I was figuring. Like the old RC and RF reverse shortcuts would be fine imo.
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I'll say it again; ridiculous shortcuts that are relatively unfun, yet skip almost all the level, stay unbanned. See final egg and casinopolis sonic in SADX, about half of the new sonic 1 times, oil ocean 2, eternal engine 1 in sa2b, and various other examples I'm sure I missed. Glitches are not disallowed, and never have been, unless they remove all ability to compete or provide potential for infinite scores/times. SR shortcuts are still incredibly competitive, and take huge amounts of skill as well. I don't see reason to ban, myself.
QFT
There is no need to disallow the faster strats, whether they are fun or annoying is opinion. These are the fastest possible times in the game and since RC was allowed long ago, everything else is fair game.
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Now how about RR, RF, and RE vids?
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QFT
There is no need to disallow the faster strats, whether they are fun or annoying is opinion. These are the fastest possible times in the game and since RC was allowed long ago, everything else is fair game.
When RC was found there were a lot of complaints. However it was the only broken level back then, but now that ALL levels have these glitches I think it's a very different situation.
Also Groudon your opinion plz
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I say Freestyle these strats. As you said, the RC hax was deemed allowable because it was the only one that was so broken. RR later was, but originally just on Reverse. Most of the other games on TSC have some broken levels, but never before has a game on the site been 100% broken (save for 2 modes, but who cares about those?).
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what percent, honestly, of charts are broken in sr times?
s1's percent might come close.
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what percent, honestly, of charts are broken in sr times?
s1's percent might come close.
About 75% (the remaining 25% are the Balloon and Tag charts (that nobody really cares about)).
Well, Radiant Emerald is not fully broken. But also iirc.
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ok, everyone should now say his opinion of what should be done so we can bug the responsibles about it.
I'm fine with either a ban of OOB or freestyle charts for the glitches. But not as it is now. :(
Ha...what in the world happened...I say freestyle it because...its failing....just failing so badly that I HATE IT!!! I only do tag and balloons now because of all the glitches....FREESTYLE IT NAO!!
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Bump.
4 (bertin, Groudon, Kmacc, P.P.A.) are for freestyle charts, 1 (Etch) is for letting everything as it is.
moar people! >:o
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1 is for letting everything as is?
you seem to be disregarding the opinions of mike and me :(.
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1 is for letting everything as is?
you seem to be disregarding the opinions of mike and me :(.
Oh sorry I know if that quote was still up-to-date
And I didn't see mike way back on page 1. :(
OK, for freestyle charts: 4
Against freestyle charts: 3
EDIT: Also Stefan you don't even compete in Sonic R. >_>
EDIT2: Also I can blame faults I make at the moment on my cold because currently I only get half of what's going on! <_<
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OK, for freestyle charts: 4
Against freestyle charts: 4
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OK, for freestyle charts: 5
Against freestyle charts: 4
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OK, for freestyle charts: 6
Against freestyle charts: 4
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BRING ON THE FREESTYLE CHARTS
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Okay.
7 (of which 6 actually play(ed) the game) are for freestyle charts,
4 (of which 2 actually play(ed) the game) are for letting everything as it is.
I'LL KEEP ANNOYING PEOPLE IN THE CHAT WITH THIS
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so erm, where do you get the idea i've never played sr?
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I assume he's going for "has submitted stats to and actively competed in" rather than "has played the game".
Not exactly as intuitive as it should be, but I think that's what he's trying to imply.
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I assume he's going for "has submitted stats to and actively competed in" rather than "has played the game".
Not exactly as intuitive as it should be, but I think that's what he's trying to imply.
Yea that's what I meant. Sorry. :(
(I just clicked on each person's TSC Profile link to see if they ever competed in Sonic R. >_>)
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Never competed, never played, don't own. As an outside observer, I vote to add this to freestyle, mostly because I don't want this broken if I ever DO compete.
OK, for freestyle charts: 8
Against freestyle charts: 4
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Although freestyle would be great, I don't really have a reaosn to care anymore. =]
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I WILL KEEP BUMPING THIS UNTIL THE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE PAY ATTENTION AND GIVE A CONCRETE STATEMENT WHICH THEY SEEM TO AVOID IN THE CHANNEL
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My opinion is that the charts stay as they are
That sounded pretty clear to me.
All this caps lock stuff is annoying too, it won't help.
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So....what about the future competitors? You think they will want to have fun competing in a game that is fully broken?
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So....what about the future competitors? You think they will want to have fun competing in a game that is fully broken?
Whether it is fun or not is opinion, frankly I don't care.
How many games really follow the designers' original intentions? Allowing all sorts of warp glitches and shortcuts in other sonic games is really no different here. These are simply the fastest times possible.
I wonder why RC was allowed in the first place, hypocrites.
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How many games really follow the designers' original intentions? Allowing all sorts of warp glitches and shortcuts in other sonic games is really no different here. These are simply the fastest times possible.
I wonder why RC was allowed in the first place, hypocrites.
How many games are 100% broken? No other games on the site have every level completely broken.
RC was originally allowed because it was the only stage that was broken.
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RC was originally allowed because it was the only stage that was broken.
I see, people just pick and choose what kind of rules to follow around here.
So if one shortcut is found its completely okay but if more are discovered then the game is completely ruined so just throw in the towel. Don't you see the flawed logic here? If people are upset with shortcuts breaking the game then why even allow it in the first place since RC was reduced to such short 3laps and flaps?
Flip flopping on the charts is really dumb.
It's not broken 100% anyway, there are still balloon and tag times.
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Balloon and tag? Oh, you mean the ones that no one gives two shits about.
That doesn't change the fact that R is fubar'd.
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Balloon and tag? Oh, you mean the ones that no one gives two shits about.
That doesn't change the fact that R is fubar'd.
100% means everything
Since none of the scores are weighted higher than the other, good tag and balloon times are just as important as gp, ta or rev times. This is just your opinion.
If this was such a problem then the guy who allowed RC shortcut in the first place should take the blame.
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As I just said, that was when RC was the only broken level. One broken level out of five was nothing. However, now every level is broken.
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yes?
do you think future competitiors will have fun competing in sonic 1?
of course.
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Sonic 1 is different in the fact that it's still point A to point B. This is different in the fact that you're going out of bounds to repeat laps. At least from what I know.
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Laps are point a to point b 3 times.
And that's not bertin's argument. Bertin's argument is a broken game is no fun to compete in.
Except s1 is broken. And will still be competed in.
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All this caps lock stuff is annoying too, it won't help.
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Laps are point a to point b 3 times.
And that's not bertin's argument. Bertin's argument is a broken game is no fun to compete in.
Except s1 is broken. And will still be competed in.
You know what I meant and sonic 1 is irrelevant to the matter at hand.....
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I know exactly what you meant. You meant it is not fun to compete in games with heavy glitches.
I provided the counterexample of sonic 1, which has extremely heavy glitch abuse. The sonic adventure series has many out of bounds glitches as well, and they are two of the most competed in games on the site. Glitchiness to skip large portions of the level is commonplace and is not reason to ban.
What I said is entirely relevant. We are discussing whether or not a technique or even charts get moved to freestyle. Consistency on the part of TSC is a very big issue on this, and how s1 was handled falls into that area of relevance. Glitches are -not- reason for banning. If I bring up counter examples to prove this, you really shouldn't call what I say irrelevant.
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Name one Sonic game where every level is broken due to a glitch. Sonic 1 does not fall into that category. Sonic R does.
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I wasn't talking about Bertin's reason. I'm talking about A reason. When most of the time attacks turn into "whoever goes out of bounds and circles in place fastest wins", it's just not really as competitive in the right way. Besides, I'm sure there's other similar examples that are banned. I just don't know them. Other than Balloon Park.
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please, I invite you to prove that every single chart in this game is broken. I am anxiously awaiting it.
Until then, don't fudge statistics to say that the game is 100% broken or use muddy wording to say "every level is broken".
And where do you draw the arbitrary line of ho w many glitchable levels is acceptable. is it 80%? Is it 60%? is it just 20%? Where are you proposing we draw up a consistent line that, when passed, is ok?
You had no problem with radical city, but you do have a problem with everything else.
Where was the line crossed?
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This topic is lol.
To be honest, I'm more for this being allowed than put in freestyle or banned for one reason. When RC was broken, it was not banned or put in freestyle, it was allowed. Yeah, I think Stefan has a strong point, where do you draw the line? One level glitched is all right, but if the other levels are glitched in the same way it's a problem? In addition to that, you can't neglect the fact that balloons and tag are a part of competition, which I enjoy more than the racing, but that's just me, it's all about personal preference. DarkspinesSonic has spoken!!!!
P.S. Obligatory :D
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One level glitched is all right, but if the other levels are glitched in the same way it's a problem?
Back when RC was all the rage, the people who were pro the glitch actually argumented with "There is only one level broken." to justify it not being banned. (btw, I already was against it when it was new (despite me using it for the first time. Oh how I curse that deed).)
Also the problem isn't just that all levels are broken, but that all levels are broken in exactly the same way, which extremely alters the overall gameplay.
Which is a difference to Sonic 1, because from what I've heard a lot of stages are glitched, yet require more different tactics than Sonic R's omnipresent going out of bounds. (Could be wrong though, I'm not 100% sure on that matter as I never TAed S1.)
Stefan said that while both S1 and SA1 are totally screwed in the glitch department, both are still very active - however, those two are also some of the most popular Sonic games. Of course the first Sonic game ever and the first real 3D platformer in the series get a lot of attention - Sonic R however is an obscure spin-off only few actually played. And those who have might not really be bothered to compete in it when they see the amount of glitchhax.
:D
>:(
Also those glitches heavily impact the activity - from what I've observed, this seems to be the current situation:
- Etch - Plays a lot, has fun.
- Groudon - Forced himself to play a little if at all, is annoyed.
- Kmacc - Hinted that he'd stop playing a few pages back, recently only submitted a tag or balloon time.
- Bertin, P.P.A. - Don't play currently, probably won't return if there won't be freestyle charts. (Except for some Tag/Balloon)
- NOBODY ELSE
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Hypocrites for the loss.
You forget RR rev and RE rev are unintentional glitches. By doing the normal best strat, you sometimes just fall through walls. The goal is time trials so I don't see why we do not want to complete the courses as fast as possible.
I checked out some of the Sonic Adventure times and they are crazy!!!
Sneaking through doors to complete some levels in just a matter of seconds? Obviously that was not intentional either but did that stuff get banned, no. Too many other examples out there.
You have two choices, just goof around getting crap times or actually try and push things to the absolute limit. "Time trialing is dedicated to the theory and practice of advanced videogaming. This is about man versus machine. This is about taking gaming above and beyond. Faster times. Higher scores. More insane stunts. Stuff you didn't think was humanly possible."
I explained everything I have done so far along with some videos so if that does not help "even" up or improve the competition I don't know what will. I could have just said nothing. Not playing out of protest won't change anything either. These are the fastest times possible, done and done. You just can't go around changing the rules to suit your own needs, that's just greedy. You can never know what strats lie around the corner so thinking that was the only possible shortcut was foolish. RR was added without any issues but as soon as RI was done faster, oh no it's time to abandon ship, I hate this game, throws controller into the wall and cries. Even with freestyle, how will that motivate people anymore than they are now, they will only be farther behind point wise, lol. I don't exactly think this is a popular or fun game to begin with, hence always low activity. The music sucks and there is only 5 levels, wtf? I just had to use some game instincts and sniff out the bugs to see how poorly it was made.
Playing is a choice, beat or be beaten. I cry for no one.
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Also the problem isn't just that all levels are broken, but that all levels are broken in exactly the same way, which extremely alters the overall gameplay.
Unless I missed something, RE isn't as broken as the other levels. From what I've seen and read, you're not going in a small circle once out of bounds. What you're doing is going through a wall to reach another part of the track directly underneath it (so you never actually leave the track's boundaries).
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I don't exactly think this is a popular or fun game to begin with, hence always low activity. The music sucks and there is only 5 levels, wtf? I just had to use some game instincts and sniff out the bugs to see how poorly it was made.
"Poorly made?!" If you don't like it, why are you even playing it? And mind you, this was a 3D game made in 1997 and one of the graphically most advanced Saturn games - a console that was generally not known for its excellence in displaying 3D graphics. You're blaming a 11 year old game for not being entirely glitch-free and not being able to put up with a bunch of internet freaks who spend their days obsessedly trying to improve on their fastest times by a few centiseconds. Sonic Adventure 1 for example had like 100 times the glitches of Sonic R (which to date is still one of the most bug-free 3D Sonic games ever, that one OOB glitch aside). And, does that make SA1 a bad game? Or SA2? Sonic the Hedgehog (MD)? I highly doubt it.
The music sucks
WHAT
You have two choices, just goof around getting crap times or actually try and push things to the absolute limit. "Time trialing is dedicated to the theory and practice of advanced videogaming. This is about man versus machine. This is about taking gaming above and beyond. Faster times. Higher scores. More insane stunts. Stuff you didn't think was humanly possible."
RR was added without any issues but as soon as RI was done faster, oh no it's time to abandon ship, I hate this game, throws controller into the wall and cries.
Trust me, there were issues with RR and RC. Already back then I whined about how they'd ruin the game. And no, if I hated this game I would still be playing it because I wouldn't mind it being raped from the inside out.
TAing a game means more to me than simply amassing points to go up in some ranking. Time attacking, aside from it often being fun, is my way of expressing appreciation towards what a wonderful piece of software the developers have created (which is also why I could never TA a game I don't like, Sonic Jam aside). But if successfully speedrunning a game requires me to completely break all of its essence, changing the gameplay to something the designers would have never wanted to happen, to ruin that what made me fall in love with it in the first place (in this case, the excellent track layout) then no, this is definitely not a way to show my love to a game. It'd be like breaking the disk in half and spitting in the face of those who made it.
Even with freestyle, how will that motivate people anymore than they are now, they will only be farther behind point wise, lol.
I'm sure I am not the only one who TAs games because I like them. And freestyle charts would fuel competition, as people could finally play the game again the way they liked it. Some might also compete in the Freestyle charts for the points, but others might not give a shit because they're having FUN the normal way and are not only playing a game because of silly point whoring.
I don't care if my persistence on this matter annoys people, and unless Rolken comes in a locks the topic I will also not give up the fight. Seeing one of my favourite Sonic games being torn apart like that hurts me, and I will not stay behind and watch. That's what I did back in the days of the RC discovery, but I will not repeat this mistake.
EDIT: [16:45] <DsRaichu> hey, I still want to get Gems Collection, but probably only is freestyle charts are added to Sonic R
[16:46] <DsRaichu> If I do end up getting it, I won't bother with the glitches
[16:47] <DsRaichu> any Sonic R records of mine will be pure, clean racing (no glitches)
(Unrelated parts cut out.)
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I honestly fail to see how people can find it fun to break a game in half, then break it again, and again, until all you can recognize is tiny shattered pieces of Sonic's face.
I am not exaggerating.
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Freestyle charts are a nonoption. Nobody plays freestyle. If you want a separation of charts, the question at hand is how to get people to actually compete in two sets of rankings. If there's no solution, then one ranking is the only viable answer.
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RC was originally allowed because it was the only stage that was broken.
I see, people just pick and choose what kind of rules to follow around here.
So if one shortcut is found its completely okay but if more are discovered then the game is completely ruined so just throw in the towel. Don't you see the flawed logic here? If people are upset with shortcuts breaking the game then why even allow it in the first place since RC was reduced to such short 3laps and flaps?
Flip flopping on the charts is really dumb.
It's not broken 100% anyway, there are still balloon and tag times.
It's not "flipflopping". A mildly degenerate technique that applies to only one or a handful of charts can be interesting for the purposes of competition as though the technique itself may be easier or less competitive, it adds to the variety of skills required to perform well in a game. If the whole game becomes degenerate, then you have a net loss of competition and the rankings suffer.
The question in that situation is whether it is more important to have the fastest possible times for the game with no holds barred, or to promote a lively and healthy competition between members in optimizing a game.
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It's been 18 days since Sonic R had activity. The SCs really seem to be attracting people to play.
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You say this as if SR would have heavy competition without the glitches.
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Bertin and I would definitely TA it again.
Also yes, Sonic R always had not much competition. But that doesn't justify totally killing it off - if something is already rather unpopular we should at least try to keep the few competition that is there alive, shouldn't we?
The Saturn version reminded me that it really was a great game and how fun to TA it is. In fact I've already beaten some of my old times. But what's the point in submitting them to a chart that's filled with unfunny glitch-hax? :/