The Sonic Center
Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: PsyBorg on May 04, 2006, 09:21:08 pm
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Well, Sega sounds like it's gonna have something promising, but I'm unsure how it'll work out.
The gameplay supposedly involves the return of the Adventure Field, along with stages which are reported to still be as Sonic-y as usual, though it's been reported that the camera is closer to the ground giving you a sense of speed, and that there will be many noticable paths instead of just one straightforward path. Nice from what we hear, eh?
Along with that, we have a brand new storyline. A rich princess of a royal family, Princess Elise, has found a Chaos Emerald and holds a "deep secret" from what we know. Eggman learns of her, how she has it, and captures her while also stealing her Chaos Emerald. Sonic soon knows of this and once again heroically attacks Eggman's forces. Along with that, we see a cream-colored Sonic-like character, who is supposedly Sonic's rival, look down and say "I've finally found it... the Iblis Trigger." Whatever the hell that means, of course it means that it'll have a good plotline twist as the story goes on. (As a side note, that character will also be supposedly playable along with Sonic.)
Sounds fanboyishly/fangirlishly unofficial, right? I thought so. But that's not true. Sega really is doing this.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/704/704896p1.html
Well? What do you think? Sound off plz.
[More details: http://uk.xbox.gamespy.com/xbox-360/sonic-the-hedgehog/704695p1.html ]
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ANOTHER recoloured rival?
You've got to be kidding me.
Don't like the sound of the whole princes schtick either. However, it does sound like this is either set a distinct amount of time in the future from where we've been so far (if all this talk of Sonic being much taller and older looking isn't just IGN blabbering on), or a different universe altogether. Which is at least interesting.
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Sounds fanboyishly/fangirlishly unofficial, right?
That's actually, exactly why Sonic is so cool.
The new info, regarding the story and the new character, boosts my interest greatly. I /expect/ to be blown away by the look of the new hedgehog. To me, his addition to the game almost guarantees the game's charm. It guarantees that this game isn't going to take Sonic back to the stone age. (archaic anti-fan ideal of a game with only Sonic and little/no story... then again, this game was said to have an emphasis on story to begin with. but still...) Now it's ok even if the game never gets more colorful than the drab ruins or city. Sonic has a rival to throw catch phrases at and vice versa. <3 <3
But I still have worries. This talk of Sonic changing appearance... that's unsettling. Where did they get 5 foot 11 inches from? Besides, that's too tall. Sonic doesn't actually /look/ taller than he does in Sonic Riders, if you ask me. Is this an official change or just IGN's ridiculous speculation (them saying "robotnik" and referencing chili dogs...) .. and what else has Sega changed? And where are the human characters and/or extras? And adventure stages with townsfolk? Are there going to be hedgehog extras? Are they all going to be hedgehog recolors?
Like I said in a certain chat: Judgement day for my fanfare >:D
Oh and btw:: I think we know who the fourth character in Sonic Rivals is.
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Plot is irrelevant. Level design is everything.
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Plot is irrelevant. Level design is everything.
Too right.
And I don't see reason to complain really. At least we're not again in the military + aliens theme.
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5'11"??? That's crazy! Of course, he'd probably be only about 5'3"*, but that's still too much.
This is like that thread at 4Kids: someone somehow got the idea that Sonic is 5 feet tall.
*like Robotnik and Vector, who claim to be about 6 feet, but really aren't even close
Hmm... Adventure Fields? That could be a good thing. SA's were a little rough,
but they weren't terrible, and they were some of the best places for glitches, anyway. :D
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Well, story aside, gameplay sounds cool++. I never minded Adventure Fields myself, and multiple paths = win. Now we can use different routes as opposed to just finding glitches. :D
I believe Sprint said it best. ITT Sprint wins the topic.
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Pertaining to the "Ilbis Trigger"-
In Judiasm and Christianity, the chief of demons is generally known as Satan or the Devil; in Islam he is known as Ilbis.
So apparently, Sonic is being referred to as some kind of devil trigger by this new character. I talked about it with some friends of mine, and they came up with that he could be referring to how Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic.
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coooooooooool
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Pertaining to the "Ilbis Trigger"-
In Judiasm and Christianity, the chief of demons is generally known as Satan or the Devil; in Islam he is known as Ilbis.
So apparently, Sonic is being referred to as some kind of devil trigger by this new character. I talked about it with some friends of mine, and they came up with that he could be referring to how Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic.
Fleetway storyline ftw?
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Haha, so true. Of course, the difference between the games Super Sonic and the Fleetway Super Sonic is that the games Super Sonic is more badass-hero like compared to the evil maniac that is the Fleetway version, but I suppose you can't beat the similarity between the two.
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There isn't really any similarity between the two, given that Super Sonic in the games is just powered up Sonic, but in Fleetway he was a whole seperate character (eventually in the physical sense too).
If they were to take a Fleetway-inspired angle, though, it might just give this some justification for existing in my eyes. :O
Also
Pertaining to the "Ilbis Trigger"-
In Judiasm and Christianity, the chief of demons is generally known as Satan or the Devil; in Islam he is known as Ilbis.
So apparently, Sonic is being referred to as some kind of devil trigger by this new character. I talked about it with some friends of mine, and they came up with that he could be referring to how Sonic can use the Chaos Emeralds to turn into Super Sonic.
Fleetway storyline ftw?
More like Devil May Cry lolol
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Along with that, we see a cream-colored Sonic-like character, who is supposedly Sonic's rival
According to rumour, this character is also going to be the fourth character in Sonic Rivals (PSP).
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...will this come out for the Revolution?
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You mean the Wii?
Probably not.
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So... Sonic and another character will be both playable, and they are opposing forces. Y'know, I'd bet quite a lot on them joining forces at the end. I mean, it's not like Sonic Team haven't done this idea before. No less than four times.
So anyway, I'll buy it. And no matter how good all this stuff is, if the damn levels don't have bloody floors, I won't be happy.
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Another Sonic-set that I'll have to get for the collection if nothing else... hopefully, this one will be a little better...
Why can't we go back to the uber-smiling botnik who made EVIL level designs and actually hated Sonic?
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Eggman hates Sonic..... always has. :|
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(http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3213/834_0003.jpg)
(http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3213/834_0012.jpg)
(http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3213/834_0015.jpg)
Trailer is here. Ignore the text asking what Sonic is doing driving a car. http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/e3/sonic-e3-trailer-172311.php
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;_;
That is so beautiful and righteous.
I said once that from the info we were getting, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference if the game was called Sonic Adventure 3. And in the end it really is. They went all out. To think I was worried they were going to decanonize or change what we knew about Sonic and start over to impress gamers who hate new Sonic, and nongamers who don't know anything outside the Genesis games. But on the contrary, they went /so far/ as to put Shadow in a jeep. Not only did they make a game for me, but they did the most they could to piss off the haters. What a kickass way to debut for the next generation.
The only downside to it is Eggman's new look. However, I can sort of see the need for it. Really, he doesn't look that different except that they merged him with more plausible proportions. I don't agree with it, but in any case, Eggman and Elise still aren't ultra realistic, and have that slight cartoon look, and everything else is also great. I'm really happy with what we're getting at this point.
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Man, Eggman is a sexy beast.
Joking.
Anyway, I like the new character's design. The only thing I dislike is how they keep coming up with hedgehogs. Blaze is the one character I would've liked to be Sonic's rival, since she's actually different. XD But, as for the rest: the new graphic style, the new type of gameplay, I'm really getting psyched up for this. Gonna have to buy a 360 soon.
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Trailer is here. Ignore the text asking what Sonic is doing driving a car.
If your referring to the 2nd picture, thts clearly Shadow driving the car :P
If your referring to something in the trailer, I wouldn't know due to not watched-ness :o
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I was referring to this actually.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9973/referr5tp.png
:P
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Beautiful. Fucking awesome from what I see.
I'm convinced this will be a good game with that new trailer. The new guy is "good enough" as of now, but everything else looks awesome. I'm convinced to BUYBUYBUY a used Xbox360 at some point along with this sooner or later. Even if it turns out to be crap anyway, it's worth a buy.
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I'm hoping this game will explain some things about Sonic's past.
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there are a few things that i do not like about the next gen sonic game, they slimmed down eggman and slimmed him down alot, tooo much i do this the addition of the white hedgehog and that they made sonic grow up making it realistic i mean come on sonic couldn't stay the same height for ever changing his height makes it more realistic, now i am a die hard sonic fan owning and 100% beating every sonic game that ever came out in the us, owning two copies of each game one that i play and one i keep in mint condition saying that some of these changes are good
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Skylights: If the video on that link is the trailer, then the person who wrote that text beneath it is kinda dumb. From what I can gather, Sonic's gameplay is like SA3, Silver's is all psychic powers, and perhaps Shadow's gameplay consists solely of driving. Who knows.
Wavedash: I have said that many a time. And not once was I joking.
SonicTheHedgehog: For a die hard Sonic fan you sure as heck need a better handle (wtf does anyone use the term 'handle' any more?). I don't think the changes of characters' size is really to do with them 'growing up' or making it 'more realistic' (supersonic hedgehog, byebye realism), it's just a slight change in the graphical style. Obviously just by looking at the screenshots you can see the style is similar to the Adventures, but prettier, and much less cartoony than Heroes/Shadow.
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I didn't like the idea of them changing Eggman's look because, the way I saw it, it's basically saying: "Dr. Eggman isn't a character, but merely a faceless staple of the series."
But after a while I got over it. He doesn't look half bad, and he doesn't even look all that different. When I saw a side-by-side comparison on ytmnd that had Eggman from a Shadow cutscene in it, and next to it, the Shadow version looked quite... well silly. I guess I can't argue with that reaction.
But if it's not one thing it's another. There is still one thing I'm fan angsting over:
http://www.sega.com/games/game_temp.php?game=sonicnext
In there it reads:
"In his first adventure set in the human world, Sonic meets..."
Wait what?? wth Sega >:|
The first time I owned the Sonic games for myself was Sonic Jam. I guess I should consider myself privileged because Saturn was sort of niche at the time, and Sonic Jam was a great 'educational' demo of Sonic. It had plenty of media from the japanese commercials, the WB-style cartoon, and an ad for the anime movie. So one thing I thought was made fairly clear in Sonic Jam was that Sonic lived in the same world humans did and not some mushy furdom. Although I suppose with the localization and the Satam and comic series, I would probably have been branded an elitist just for knowing what I did.
When Sonic Adventure came out I thought it was the greatest thing ever. (perhaps it was) On Dreamcast, the world of Sonic was officialized and empowered to the point of undeniability. And then Sonic Adventure 2 went even farther and rather than just empowering the background premise of Sonic series, it threw it into the forefront.
So besides the entire series supposedly taking place in the same world, and three games (Adventure, Adventure 2, Shadow) making it painfully obvious what kind of world it is, where does Sega marketing get off saying this is the /first/ adventure in the human world?
And I mean, I even considered the grim possibility that this is a prequel in which Sonic first visits the human world from --GOD KNOWS WHERE-- but there would need to be a lot of explaining of why Shadow is in the game.
Though likely and in the best case it's nothing more than drivel in a meaningless marketing writeup, not any more canon than 'Mobius'. Pisses me off though.
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http://news.sonicstadium.org/story/191/
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
-Blaze: Blaze is the surprise character of the story with connections to Silver. Our source suggested that these connections may imply the alternative reality from which she and Eggman Nega originated from is infact a future reality. The Sol Emeralds also feature in the plot; however connections between Soleanna and the Emeralds are yet to be made.
blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah
No longer does it seem like a revival of the past games... it's more like a "take everything that the fans thought were cool that we made and put it in one game" kind of approach.
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Sounds like Sonic Heroes in that respect.
In other words, not good.
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ffsfsfsfsdfdsfs
No idea what to make of that. I mean, I like Blaze a whole lot, and I guess I knew they were going to have her feature again, but I just pray they don't ruin her.
Speculation of another character being Sonic's son for the LOL.
Also, "The Iblis trigger is an event involving the deaths of several characters". Hum, I wonder if it'll end up being like Shadow's "death" in SA2.
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Unless the information directly comes from Sega, I'm not trusting it. As far as I know, this could be bogus.
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No longer does it seem like a revival of the past games... it's more like a "take everything that the fans thought were cool that we made and put it in one game" kind of approach.
Sounds like Sonic Heroes in that respect.
A sketchy parallel at best. o_o;
Also, "The Iblis trigger is an event involving the deaths of several characters". Hum, I wonder if it'll end up being like Shadow's "death" in SA2.
Well it's been my opinion for a while now that the entire point of Shadow was to die and then come back.
Anyway, with the time-travel alternate world craziness implied by all this, Iblis Trigger is possibly an event that happens in another reality, or in the future, or is something Sonic and company are working to keep from happening altogether. The death or faked death of non-Shadow characters is something I'm hoping isn't true.
Of course this is speculating on a possibly fake leak. I've heard this on top of the claim that Iblis Trigger is Shadow. (as well as the initial info that it's Sonic)
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There is significance to that news I posted because it's not your average rumor that someone just randomly makes up; It's coming from the same guy who said exactly who the extra characters in Sonic Riders were to be months before the game was out. I'm pretty sure he hangs out at ghz if you want to get in touch with him.
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yep, the game the topic creator is talking about sounds...ABSOLUTELY ATROCIOUS. Unless your a fan of Shadow the Hedgehog (without the guns). Sonic Wildfire sounds AWESOME. Just another reason to buy the Wii. :)
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btw some new info (and not new info) about Sonic Next Gen
- the producer of this game is the same producer of Shinobi for PS2 (nobody told me!)
- Silver is described as young and immature
- Amy will be in the game
- Sonic will be shopping in town stages, among other activities
- the game will feature remakes of stages from classic Sonic games
Also, if you go to:
http://www.sega.com/sonic/content.php
..then click on Sonic Games, then Sonic The Hedgehog next gen, it says that the game takes place a new planet that Sonic just happened to visit.
http://www.summerofsonic.com/interviews/
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/7328/picture0053gs3qu.jpg
Also here's a pic for reference if anyone wants to guess Sonic's height in this game:
(http://www.sega.com/games/title/sonicnext/ss/ss_sonicnext_10.jpg)
And I still think that selectively favoring Wild Fire over this game is pure madness. But then again, read my custom title.
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"More realistic" = eeeh, realistic is not a word you throw around in this context
"More cinematic" = good
Slightly offtopic: I'm amused by the "World of Sonic" section of the website, specifically the characters section. Why is Fang there? And why are they even calling him Fang? His name was always Nack in the US (not that I mind, Nack is a shit name).
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Eww, I can see the polygons on that car! I counted 12 edges on the wheel.
Isn't that as smooth as Amy's skirt in SA for Dreamcast?not that I care any less about the game being ported to Revolution... I STILL WANT IT!
Ohh, and I think I see some edges on Silver's hair... he's about SA2B quality. But yeah, XB360 doesn't impress me.
If the Revolution is at all more powerful than GameCube, it'll probably come pretty close.
That picture makes Silver look like he's a little shorter than the car... that'd be... 4 feet?
I thought Sonic was just gradually getting slimmer, but he must've suddenly grown a foot now!
(But then, Sonic might be shorter than Silver, and those cars could be really small like in SA.)
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Slightly offtopic: I'm amused by the "World of Sonic" section of the website, specifically the characters section. Why is Fang there? And why are they even calling him Fang? His name was always Nack in the US (not that I mind, Nack is a shit name).
Indeed. Many have noticed that and are curious about it.
Although this just crossed my mind, he could be up on there solely because of his appearance in the recently re-released Sonic Fighters and Triple Trouble. Just a thought.
Ohh, and I think I see some edges on Silver's hair... he's about SA2B quality.
YOU LIE
he's a gajillion polygons and is as round as a baby's cheek
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2 things to say here.
lol360
loljpeg
Also how does that tell us Sonic's height!? XP
Yeah too bad it's not going to be on the cheap Wii. (I refuse to get a 360.) I want PS3, but it is grossly overpriced. :(
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I want PS3
ban
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Also how does that tell us Sonic's height!? XP
Yeah too bad it's not going to be on the cheap Wii. (I refuse to get a 360.) I want PS3, but it is grossly overpriced. :(
(http://www.mooglecavern.com/sega/images/Sonic-NextGen-scan0005.jpg) Comparison shot (couldn't find a better quality version at short notice.
Looks to me that Silver is a bit shorter than the other two, which makes sense if he's younger.
And Marth, yes, Sonic got taller.
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You mean Silvers no longer silver and old looking? Gay.
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I want PS3
ban
no u
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What the hell is wrong with 360?
I was gonna get an Xbox 360 for Sonic as opposed to a PS3.
Although I only yesterday realized that playing it on PC is a viable option if it comes out on PC.
But the reason I ultimately decided to stick to 360 is that, even if Sonic comes out on PC, it's iffy if Sonic Riders 2 and future Sonic games will be ported to PC as well. When they are pretty much guaranteed to be on 360 and PS3. That's my current logic anyway.
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StH06 won't be released for the PC. At least not for a couple years until PCs get better, and Sega wants to make some quick cash, which is probably not the case because sales for DX and Heroes for the PC were really bad.
That picture with PC at the bottom is not from an official source, so why do people insist on using it all the time?
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Dammit ignore the PC bit on that image. :( I only used that one because it was all I could find. It was purely for height comparison (that part of it is official).
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ANOTHER recoloured rival?
You've got to be kidding me.
Don't like the sound of the whole princes schtick either. However, it does sound like this is either set a distinct amount of time in the future from where we've been so far (if all this talk of Sonic being much taller and older looking isn't just IGN blabbering on), or a different universe altogether. Which is at least interesting.
no ur wrong, the more the better and this character has mystic powers and i think i saw him in sonic rivals for the psp by the way his name is SILVER the hedgehog
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Dammit ignore the PC bit on that image. :( I only used that one because it was all I could find. It was purely for height comparison (that part of it is official).
Yea I know.
and it wasn't because of you posting that pic that I thought about getting the game for PC. It was from remembering seeing that pic months ago. I never considered PC a viable option until this week, but since it's not really coming on PC, then nevermind.
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no ur wrong, the more the better and this character has mystic powers and i think i saw him in sonic rivals for the psp by the way his name is SILVER the hedgehog
Out.
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YOU LIE
he's a gajillion polygons and is as round as a baby's cheek
Okay, I think you were joking there. If not...
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ROFL Marth, it's normal to see the pixels on the outline of a model. Unless the resolution is like at 2048x1532 or something.
It won't be noticeable on a TV screen (unless you have some good HD display, but people who get those actually WANT to get such good quality image so that they can see every pixel correctly).
Also, nitpicking at that poor car's wheel is really exagerating. :P
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Polygons =/= pixels, man
Normally I'd agree that nitpicking about wheels on pieces of scenery is too much.
But ffs this is, what, the 5th console generation? And Sony and Microsoft (and Sega) can harp on about little other than graphics, and yet they still leave obvious polygon edges about.
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Did you mean pixels or edges? More pixels would make the edges more visible.
Anyway, I'm not saying the graphics are bad. This game looks very good (except for that tire). :P
The reasons I drew attention to the flaws were:
-eggFL said it was perfectly smooth.
-This doesn't look that much better than GameCube, even though it's the next generation.
-Revolution (yes, I still use that name) can't be too far behind in graphics.
-The GCN's power has been underappreciated from when it got the "kiddy" image (2002?)
to now, when so many people are "ooh"ing and "ahh"ing over the XB360.
-Yeah, like Crowbar said, Sony and Microsoft (not sure about SEGA, though) just care about graphics.
Speaking of that, didn't Sony claim (years ago) that the PS2 could do smoother graphics than in this pic?
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nice observation Marth, thanks
It still looks great though. It definitely looks much better than Gamecube in any case.
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http://www.xboxyde.com/news_3273_en.html
30 more new screenshots. Included is Shadow's gameplay looking better than "lol vehicles", and the rumored 4th hedgehog.
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WHOA, are they real? Some of them look really weird.
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If they are real, then Chaos Blast has probably returned based on one of the screens.
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Also, take note that not one screenshot has Shadow holding a gun. They're getting my hopes up. :(
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I'm intrigued by the action in the following images of Shadow: 1 (http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3830/834_0023.jpg) 2 (http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3830/834_0024.jpg) 3 (http://images.xboxyde.com/gallery/public/3830/834_0013.jpg)
The ways he's moving in those shots implies a very combat-oriented playstyle.
Sonic = Running and jumping
Silver = Puzzles???
Shadow = Combat (and driving)???
Maybe????????
Fourth hedgehog looks...funny. Kinda looks like he doesn't even have hands or feet, just those clusters of crystals. Kinda fancharacterish, though. Oh well.
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I'm guessing Shadow's gameplay is a combination of Sonic style speed speed and high intensity combat (just the kind of thing I would enjoy). That 4th hedgehog looks like a twisted, evil Shadow. I can clearly see his hands and feet, they just look like they have dark spikes jutting out, once again suggesting a hedgehog filled with evil power. I don't see him as being crystal like but that's just my take on it.
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To me that fourth hedgehog looks like an 'evil' Shadow... possibly Shadow's main nemesis in the game? I mean after all, it looks like Silver is after Sonic and Sonic is after Eggman... maybe Shadow's story is parallel to theirs but not interlinking.
With Shadow all red and Chaos Blast glowy, the other hedgehog looks very blue glowy, like Shadow with a full Chaos Control gauge. The way those screens look, all those robots would seem to be the fourth hedgehog's minions, with which Shadow is doing battle.
Heck, Silver came from the future, maybe that fourth hedgehog is like... Shadow. From the future.
In which case... maybe Silver is Sonic from the future!
Or maybe not the direct future, but a parallel future! Y'know, all that mumbo jumbo about time travel and alternate universes.
Or maybe Silver and fourthhedgehog are Sonic and Shadow's sons, respectively!
:o :o :o
Controvertial speculation!
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Or possibly something completely different!
<_<
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nice observation Marth, thanks
It still looks great though. It definitely looks much better than Gamecube in any case.
What were you playing, Mario Kart? Really, this does not look that much better than, say,
Star Fox Adventures. (I would say Resident Evil 4. Going by what people say about it, it
might look better than this Sonic game, but because I haven't played it myself, I can't use it as an example.)
Again, I still think the graphics are good. It's just that I've seen models like this on GCN,
and overall, this still doesn't look that much better. (It's a leap over anything Sonic on GCN, though,
but mainly because there are no actual Sonic GCN games, unless you count the multiplatform Sonic Heroes,
which most of the time, looked the same as the upgraded Dreamcast ports, anyway.)
And now, these new pictures are just confirming that this doesn't look next-generation.
Sonic looks very different than he did on GameCube, but it's because of his new look,
not because he has way more polygons (because he doesn't).
The shadows are only about as good as they were in Sonic Adventure 2: Battle,
which was far from having the best shadows on GameCube.
The environments are good, but jagged edges are all over.
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But Star Fox Adventures is a really slow game and the environments are really small. This game has much larger environments, more draw distance, much faster speed, and still looks much better than Star Fox Adventures even in still screenshots.
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Sorry I took so long to reply.
About SFA, it still had some pretty big areas (Walled City). I don't see how speed makes
such a huge difference here. Sonic would just go across the area in less time.
The draw distance was nearly perfect in SFA, and that's more than I can say for Sonic's earlier games.
SA had pop-up just a few feet away (maybe 15 feet for rings, and 200 feet for the worst mountains,
although I didn't actually measure the distance... anyway, it's bad).
SA2 and SH used pop-up in ways that it wasn't so easily visible, but it still happened a lot.
(Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything about this game.)
As for this new game, I haven't seen much of it, but it wouldn't be easy for it to beat SFA in draw distance.
Now, if you really care about size and speed, look at F-Zero GX. Some things faded in,
but the basic course and most of the buildings or mountains usually stayed visible from miles (or tens of miles) away.
The entire Emerald Coast stage could probably fit into the pit areas of the first track.
(Okay, that could be an exaggeration, but it would be interesting to see how true it is. Maybe it's even completely true!)
Even if you still insist that this next-gen Sonic game still looks much better than anything on GCN,
you can't say it's even nearly a full generation ahead of GameCube.
Remember how big of a difference that should be?
At first, there were just a few basic polygon shapes, with flat shading and few textures.
Everything about the graphics was bad (framerate, polygon counts, draw distance, everything).
Then, there were huge, fully-textured, 3-D worlds. There were still jagged edges and other flaws,
but it was much, much better than any SNES Super FX stuff.
And now (GCN), we have smooth models that can look almost perfect (except close-up),
crisp textures, high framerates, etc. This new generation should bring in models that
look perfect even close-up, as well as even better textures and all that stuff, but it doesn't.
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Sonic games have the character travel through environments at much faster speed. So the hardware would have to process these environments quickly as well as all the enemies and objects you are zipping past. Plus, since Sonic moves so quickly, the stages also have to be a lot larger than any of the environments than most games, including Star Fox Adventures.
Star Fox Adventures achieves good looking graphics, but it was an easy feat considering the type of game it was. It was like a copout. The environments are generally small and are appropriate for Nintendo 64. Fox moves very slowly in the game, and nothing really dynamic or impressive happens in any of the areas, so it's easy to throw some fur shading in, and random special effects since the hardware power wouldn't really have anywhere else to go.
F-Zero GX is a good example, but in this case it's like the opposite of Star Fox Adventures. The gameplay is very, very fast, but the graphics the game produces are quite simple. The tracks are very flat and repetitive in appearance, and they float in mid air with the track generally winding around simple background objects. The cars are simple models and are no comparison to more elaborate looking character models which actually move like in Star Fox Adventures, or the detailed, rounded car models in Gran Turismo 3.
And speaking of Gran Turismo 3 -- the cars look good in it, but there is no damage modeling, and barely any speed. The backgrounds are extremely static and the bystanders are cardboard cut-outs. Would you compare the cars in Gran Turismo to the cars in Crisis City as a basis for why Sonic Next Gen has poor graphics?
Sonic The Hedgehog doesn't use the hardware of Xbox 360 to create better screenshots, but it does it to create more versatile and consistent graphics. It uses humans, expressive mascot characters, massive levels with a lot of detail and interaction, lots of objects, elaborate physics, and high speed action gameplay. It would have to look pretty terrible for me to mind that it doesn't look better enough in still screenshots compared to certain Gamecube games. The game /is/ taking advantage of new hardware. I'd say it's doing so to much more effective ways than any other game that sticks to just one of the many things the new Sonic game does, even if it does that one thing a little better.
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-That probably would be harder on the CPU, but that's not really anything about graphics.
The environments in previous Sonic games haven't been that big. It's mostly that Sonic zips
through them in seconds, while Fox takes a long time to jog across about any area.
-What does this Sonic game do that is dynamic and impressive?
-F-Zero GX manages to look very good in screenshots and in most videos.
It only looks bad when the camera goes right up against a wall (or any object),
or when the draw distance (for certain objects) starts getting really bad
(Aeropolis and the first Green Plant really fail here.). Of course, this would look
really, really bad if there was a Sonic-style camera, but then, GX, with environments
that are many, many times bigger, is completely different, and so it doesn't really have
any advantage or disadvantage here. (A bug would see Sonic's worlds as being really
ugly, so then a bug game would look much better. But then, it would have even smaller worlds.)
The machine models are simple, but they still use quite a lot of polygons.
(Most of the F-Zero X machines are as blocky as ever, but some AX machines, like the
Cosmic Dolphin, are very smooth... at least where they are supposed to be smooth.)
Oh, and speaking of F-Zero GX, this is a game that almost never slows down.
(It can slow down at the end of a race if you do too many things at once, and for
a few other reasons like this, but in regular gameplay, it's a steady 60 fps.)
We still have to see about the Sonic game. (I'm guessing it'll tie here. It can't exactly win, anyway.)
Again, I'm not saying it looks as good as or better than the next-gen Sonic.
My point was and still is that there's just not a really big difference.
-No, of course not. Wasn't that for PS1, anyway? Games of that era often had one good feature,
but looked bad in other ways. Most GameCube games are much less like this.
I drew attention to the wheel mainly because I was showing that the graphics are simply flawed (not bad).
-Yes, the graphics seem to be consistent, and I can see that the game looks better than GCN.
I should look at the video again, but still I don't think it was really impressive in any way.
It has lots of stuff in the levels, but I don't think the speed has much to do with the graphics.
And again, it doesn't look like a full generation leap. (It's not that Sonic doesn't use the hardware.
It's that the hardware isn't as much of a leap up as it was the last few times.)
I'm trying to think of games I have that look consistent... the Sonic games
(SA2B and SH) were similar to the next-gen Sonic, except with lower quality overall.
If they had been done right (they obviously aren't pushing the hardware to its limits),
they probably could've looked pretty close to this. SA2B, at least, uses about the same
polygon counts on the models (at least for some characters, like Sonic and Shadow).
And then Metroid Prime has speed, framerate, draw distance, detail, and textures,
and it just has a bit of jaggedness. Oh, and it uses multiple light sources.
It still doesn't look as good as the Sonic game, but still again, I say that it's not too far.
Okay, I'm kind of tired of arguing (at least until Sunday or whenever :P).
Remember my main point so I don't have to repeat it so much. :P
Now I can finish arguing with F-Man about Sky Deck.
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-What does this Sonic game do that is dynamic and impressive?
It has real time collapsing objects, a relevant physics engine, expressive character models with a toon consistency to them, and high speed gameplay... among anything else I might have forgotten.
Again, I'm not saying it looks as good as or better than the next-gen Sonic.
My point was and still is that there's just not a really big difference.
I think there's a significant difference, because F-Zero GX is simply tracks + cars. Sonic attempts to put one or more moving characters and other moving objects and enemies into elaborate, believable stages.
F-Zero GX cars can look pretty good, but they're still quite simple. The tracks look good, but they're hardly ambitious. F-Zero GX gets away with looking good and being fast, but it was the least it can do considering the approach they took with the game.
-No, of course not. Wasn't that for PS1, anyway? Games of that era often had one good feature,
but looked bad in other ways. Most GameCube games are much less like this.
I drew attention to the wheel mainly because I was showing that the graphics are simply flawed (not bad).
Understood. Although Gran Turismo 3 is for Playstation 2.
-Yes, the graphics seem to be consistent, and I can see that the game looks better than GCN.
I should look at the video again, but still I don't think it was really impressive in any way.
It has lots of stuff in the levels, but I don't think the speed has much to do with the graphics.
And again, it doesn't look like a full generation leap. (It's not that Sonic doesn't use the hardware.
It's that the hardware isn't as much of a leap up as it was the last few times.)
Well isn't that expected? I thought it was with all games, not just Sonic06.
I'm trying to think of games I have that look consistent... the Sonic games
(SA2B and SH) were similar to the next-gen Sonic, except with lower quality overall.
If they had been done right (they obviously aren't pushing the hardware to its limits),
they probably could've looked pretty close to this.
They could have looked better, but I can't believe that they could look almost as good as Sonic06.
And then Metroid Prime has speed, framerate, draw distance, detail, and textures,
and it just has a bit of jaggedness. Oh, and it uses multiple light sources.
It still doesn't look as good as the Sonic game, but still again, I say that it's not too far.
Metroid Prime doesn't have a lot of speed. The game also has the benefit of not having to display a character model 99 percent of the time. Also, most of the environments are tight indoor spaces, with many opportunities to load.
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It has real time collapsing objects, a relevant physics engine, expressive character models with a toon consistency to them, and high speed gameplay... among anything else I might have forgotten.
Most of that is pretty standard (with the exception of the physics engine,
which might be very good, although, knowing Sonic, I'm not expecting much).
Sonic Adventure had all that (especially the expressive characters... too expressive! :P).
There were many places where objects collapsed, one of them being Sky Deck 2,
where about a third of the Egg Carrier's wing broke up and fell.
And SA is 8 years older, plus it's on hardware that was already very
old and outdated even before the XBox 360 was released (and it was a launch game).
Oh, and again, there's a difference between physics and graphics.
F-Zero GX cars can look pretty good, but they're still quite simple. The tracks look good, but they're hardly ambitious. F-Zero GX gets away with looking good and being fast, but it was the least it can do considering the approach they took with the game.
It's not just "fast". You seem to be familiar with it, so you must know that
the machines can move at over 1000-3000 km/h, even when they aren't diving.
(The Space Dive trick would make that 9500+ km/h.)
And there's the size: roads hundreds of feet wide (a good part or
even most of an Action stage), "small" boost plates that are at least
60x25 feet, and pit lanes that could swallow long, narrow action stages whole.
F-Zero and Sonic can't be directly compared in graphic quality
(in detail and polygons) if the size and speed are so different.
Well isn't that expected? I thought it was with all games, not just Sonic06.
Exactly! I doubt that any of the three systems will
go more than half a generation ahead of the current ones.
Rolken blames it mostly on this game. I half-agree.
Sonic hasn't delivered good graphics since 2001, and this one
probably follows those more-recent games. Also, it probably follows
the original Sonic Adventure by relying on a new system to look good.
(SA was said to have good graphics just because it looked better than
what was already out (meaning N64 games, most of them still without
the Expansion Pak). It didn't use the system as efficiently as
some other games (I don't have a DC, so all I know is that SA looks
really bad compared to GCN, and I don't know about other DC games.), though.)
Mainly, I still blame it on this generation of systems just not being as
much of a step up as every other time since the NES or whenever.
Screenshots I've seen of Revolution (Wii) don't look much better.
They could have looked better, but I can't believe that they could look almost as good as Sonic06.
You agree with me at least on that the models in SA2B are
around the same smoothness as the models in Sonic06, right?
And even though SA2B mostly uses Dreamcast graphics (and doesn't
come close to pushing the GCN to its limits), some stages
(mainly non-metal stages) don't look that bad even on GameCube.
(On the other hand, the Kart racing stages and Sky Rail look pretty bad,
and the space stages are unimpressive, all of them partly because of pop-up.)
Metroid Prime doesn't have a lot of speed. The game also has the benefit of not having to display a character model 99 percent of the time. Also, most of the environments are tight indoor spaces, with many opportunities to load.
1. It's not that slow, and the Boost Ball is especially fast.
2. But it can display the model at any place in the game.
You can press X repeatedly, and there's also an Action Replay code to
make Samus's model stay in front of the visor and cannon at all times.
3. Almost every game (some exceptions being platformers with wide-open
stages (the Mario games) and any non-racing sport I can think of)
does that, but MP gets off easy by having so many tunnels and corridors.
Other games have to hide the pop-up behind corners.
SA2 and Sonic Heroes obviously do this. I didn't notice anything in Sonic06,
(I only watched the video once), but it must be happening,
even if it's hidden perfectly (which it probably isn't).
It doesn't really count as a huge environment when pieces of it
appear and disappear all the time, and especially when the stages
are broken into areas with load times between them
(didn't you complain about that being in Sonic06 a while ago?).
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You agree with me at least on that the models in SA2B are
around the same smoothness as the models in Sonic06, right?
I don't agree. That's an exaggeration.
Anyway, you make terrific points. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. BUT Sonic06 is still totally rad.
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I don't agree. That's an exaggeration.
Anyway, you make terrific points. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. BUT Sonic06 is still totally rad.
1. You're right. The models in Sonic06 aren't that smooth. :P
Okay, but being serious, they both look near-perfect, except when the camera is super-close.
I would get some pictures of SA2B to remind everyone about the smooth models,
but my webcam probably isn't good enough (unless maybe I focused on a very small part of the TV).
Maybe you're right. I'll check again, and maybe I can get some pictures.
But don't forget:
- I'm not talking about the humans. That would be silly. I'm talking about Sonic and Shadow,
who had some of the best models in SA2B, and who are shown in most of the Sonic06 pictures.
- There are many different levels of quality. The lowest one, used for Action Stages in the Dreamcast version,
is very simple by GCN standards. It sometimes appears in SA2B's versus mode for some reason.
The FMA cutscene model isn't too bad, but edges are easily visible, especially around Sonic's eyes.
It seems that SEGA figured that the SA2 models were good enough and didn't need to be replaced for SA2B.
The model used in Action Stages in the GameCube version is very smooth, and flat edges are
very hard to see at the regular resolution, even when the camera is very close.
The main flaws are that Sonic has no mouth, and that his hands are a bit simple.
Finally, the model used in the intro to SA2B has a mouth and smooth hands, and
Sonic looks smooth all over (around his eyes). I haven't compared it directly to the Action Stage model.
Remember that I'm only talking about Sonic, especially in this case. The other models are probably from Dreamcast.
2. Thanks. And it does have good graphics (just unimpressive, considering that this is a new generation).
About the gameplay... I haven't seen much, and I don't want to look at it too much until it gets ported,
or until I somehow manage to get thousands of dollars of extra money (or until XB360 emulation
gets up to full speed in a few decades, but by then, the system will cost $20).
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Models in SA2 are horrible (in polygon count), please don't compare them to those in Sonic06. Or if you do, do it from all angles considered, not just X and Y like from a screenshot (pictures are 2D). But even then, I don't see how they can be comparable.
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Models in SA2 are horrible (in polygon count), please don't compare them to those in Sonic06. Or if you do, do it from all angles considered, not just X and Y like from a screenshot (pictures are 2D). But even then, I don't see how they can be comparable.
We already talked about this a bit (or a lot) in the Chat, but I'm posting a more-organized reply.
I don't know what you meant there. I said in my last post that I'm talking about the highest-quality models
in Sonic Adventure 2: Battle. That means no Dreamcast or cutscene junk.
The best models are very smooth (pretty good even by GameCube standards),
and they appear to be perfect except in very close or clear pictures.
I put a picture of SA2B and a picture of Sonic06 up on the screen at the same time.
The models looked pretty close in quality, although there was a difference in quality between the screenshots.
Other than the bright blue shine of Sonic's fur in Sonic06 (which, as far as I can see, was
done much more nicely than the ugly white shine in SADX), and Sonic's new look,
the models were about the same. (I counted at least 5 polygons along the edge of
one of Sonic's spikes in SA2B, and 6 along the edge of the spike in Sonic06.
The eyes looked worse than usual in both pictures (bad angle), but they seem to be about the same.
Sonic's shoes are definitely better now, mainly because there isn't just a black bitmap
showing the hole where Sonic's ankle is supposed to go. The hands in Sonic06 are around
the same smoothness as the hands of the highest-quality SA2B models.)
I don't know about that picture taken at Chao World, though. I'd have to see if I can
make Sonic look that bad in my copy. Either he's a little blocky from the back,
or he somehow just looked bad in that picture. But then, I haven't seen Sonic in Sonic06 from the back like that.
Anyway, the SA2B models are definitely not blocky. Flawed, like everything, but not blocky.
And I say they are comparable to Sonic06, even if there might be slight differences in polygon counts.
(Pictures are attached. They're blurry, but you can get your GCN out and try close-ups like this yourself.)