Sonic Forces rankings


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Offline TheRealShadnic

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Sonic Forces rankings
« on: July 05, 2018, 06:16:05 PM »
Hey!

I know it's been a year already since the release and I think Forces isn't coming to the site without at least a little reminder.. :) It'd be cool to see, if you guys have any time to add it to the boards. The site is still up, so no reason to not add it.
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 09:07:21 AM »
Would certainly give me new motivation to play the game again, since I have a LOT of CyberScore rankings on Forces, and I've been wondering the same thing for a while now tbh Since Mania charts were up within a month and a half. My guess as to why it wasn't prioritized is because the game didn't do well or because he who creates the charts is too busy, plus competition rules would have to be decided on for Forces competition, which I would love to help with, as I've done a lot of competition with this game already.

Forces has a lot of variables that can influence competition with Avatar and Avatar+Sonic levels, like the different Wispons with different perks and SOS missions, which has played a part in some people's WR times and one of my RAs that would have been impossible otherwise. I mean I would assume anyone wanting to compete in Forces is willing to go through the trouble of collecting all the Wispons for Avatar competition, much like collecting all the Chaos Emeralds for RAs in S3&K and Mania, but the SOS missions are something else entirely, since they are extremely random and waiting to get exactly the right one you need after failing the one attempt you get with it is really annoying.

Also for one Avatar level, there was a glitch that could be used to walk on the water slides and easily max out the score (99,999,999) and rings on infinitely spawning enemies that got patched in the day one update, so it'd be good to see whether or not that is allowed to be used in competition. Also ring cap is 999, even though some levels have MUCH more than 999 rings, but there's no way to tell just from the ring score like in Sonic 06 exactly how many rings you collect.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 09:13:07 AM by hfactor66 »

Offline hfactor66

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To all who wish to see Sonic Forces added to the site
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2018, 12:46:43 PM »
I received a PM from Zeupar this morning about Sonic Forces. In this topic, all players interested in seeing charts for Sonic Forces added to the site can show their support and discuss the game's competition rules if it were to be added to the site.

I never really intended to be the lead guy on this, but here I am.

Now, to quote Zeupar's PM to me, he states that "To add Sonic Forces, we would need a sensible set of rules and at least two people willing to submit to all the charts."

I'd be more than willing to step up and be that first person, as I've done a reasonable amount of competition on all three of the main categories of competition in this game, those being Time Attack, Ring Attack, and Score Attack, so I'd have some stats to submit for all of these categories of competition, (especially RA) but this is where other interested players need to step up and show their support, otherwise this will go nowhere.

With that out of the way, let's move onto the next part;

Creating a "sensible set of rules"

Now I've thought about this before, and can toss up a general set of rules, but there are some things that need to be discussed for all the categories on this game before a set of rules can be agreed upon. General rules for the game should be pretty simple, the first major rule that should seem pretty fair is this;

Use of Super Sonic in all Classic/Modern stages is banned.

For those unaware, Super Sonic in Sonic Forces is a free downloadable DLC that allows you to select Super Sonic before you enter a stage, and when you obtain 50 rings, you automatically transform into Super Sonic, giving you infinite boost and the ability to magnetize rings. It doesn't even record your time anyway, so it would have to be taken from the end of the run right before the results screen. Maybe we can have a Freestyle category where Super Sonic is allowed if anyone is interested in using Super Sonic.

It should be noted that if you have the Shadow DLC, you can play as Shadow in all of Modern Sonic's stages as well, (except boss fights) but since Shadow does not play any differently than Modern Sonic does, I don't see playing as Shadow as an issue for competition in any way. And speaking of the Episode Shadow DLC, this contains three additional levels aside from the main game, and it's possible in the future that more DLC levels could be added to the game, so it should be discussed whether or not to add charts for any DLCs. I would love to see charts for any future DLC stages, but it's understandable if the DLC stages get left out from the charts, since there's over 40 levels to compete on as it stands already.

Anyway, getting back on track, the next logical rule is this;

For all charts, the game's difficulty setting must be set to Hard.

The difficulty menu lied to you. Normal mode is easy, and Hard more is normal. In normal mode, the rings are capped at 100, and you don't lose all of your rings upon getting hit, only 20. In hard mode, it works how you'd expect; one hit costs you all of your rings, and rings are capped at 999. I'm not sure if Normal mode alters the bosses in any way to make them easier, but I think the not losing all your rings part should be reason enough to include this rule. It's just common sense.

So with that, now we get to the toss up stuff that needs to be discussed, the first one being

The Score Multipliers

In Sonic Forces, you receive simple daily missions that, once completed, trigger a score multiplier of up to 3x depending on how many of them you complete in a row that lasts for a half hour of real time to boost your score. This has allowed me to hit over 10 million points on two different stages in the game. The question is though, how should this be handled? Should using score multipliers from daily missions be allowed, or banned? I personally think this should be fair game for the Score Attack category, as it can easily be obtained, and is readily available for 30 minutes every consecutive day you log in to Sonic Forces. The major drawback to this is that it takes five straight days of logins to regain this 3x multiplier if you lose it, and it would limit competition to only those patient enough to keep this daily streak going, so it might be healthier for competition to ban this, or have players submit the score shown on the results screen BEFORE the multiplier is applied, since it would level the playing field and keep things fair for all players looking to do Score Attack but don't have the patience to wait five days.

The next thing that needs to be discussed is

The SOS Missions

In Sonic Forces, you will sometimes see a blue, green or red SOS symbol on a random level, and you have one chance to complete it. Before we get into how this affects competition, let's talk about what each one does first, since each of these SOS missions features a different gimmick.

The blue one spawns an animal capsule somewhere in the level that needs to be opened before you complete the level. If you complete the level without opening it, it will still count as a fail, and your stats won't be displayed.

The red one gives you a randomly generated Avatar character to play as to finish the stage. You fail the mission if you die, pretty straightforward.

The green one also gives you a randomly generated Avatar character to play as to finish the stage, but the major difference is that you can swap to your current selected Avatar character, effectively allowing you to play as two Avatar characters at once. You fail the mission if you die, also pretty straightforward.

So now that you're familiar with how these SOS missions work, let's get into how they affect competition. The only one that affects competition in a noticeable way is the green one. Being able to play as two Avatar characters gives you the chance to do things that would otherwise be impossible, like collecting otherwise out of reach rings, or performing otherwise impossible tricks on bosses. See these examples below if you want to get an idea of what I mean.

Stage 16 Capital City SOS Mission RA - 779 Rings by yours truly compared to Stage 16 Capital City RA - 703 Rings also by yours truly.

Stage 27 VS Infinite SOS Speedrun in 1:45.79 by E-121 DSF compared to Stage 27 VS Infinite Speedrun in 1:49.97 by Supersonic1014.

Just by looking at the stats, you can see that there is a HUGE advantage to having two Avatar characters at your disposal. The problem is how much of a MASSIVE PAIN it is to set up due to the random nature of the SOS missions. You have to wait until you get the right SOS mission on the right level, and it has to be an Avatar that will work with what you are trying to do, and if that's not enough, as discussed earlier, you only get ONE SHOT at trying the level this way, so if you make a mistake, you have to set this up all over again, which could take hours.

With all that said, the question remains; should SOS missions be allowed or banned? I personally am leaning towards banning them, due to the insane amount of RNG that goes into these setups that would otherwise deter A LOT of potential players and make competition less accessible, but some might not consider it fair to ban them from competition because of this, so that's why this needs to be discussed. I think allowing them would only stifle competition, but maybe you can change my mind.

Finally, the last thing we need to discuss is

The Wispons

The Wispons are the key to competitive success in all Avatar missions, since there's some Wispons that have beneficial perks, like earning extra rings from defeating enemies, giving a boost of speed upon stomping, letting you stop on a dime regardless of speed, a short invincibility every 100 rings, and in my opinion the most broken perk of all, DOUBLE POINTS AFTER 100 RINGS, the list goes on. These perks have benefits that affect all categories of competition, so it should be decided whether to allow them or not. I personally think these are similar to collecting all the Chaos and Super Emeralds in S3&K and Mania, in that if you want to compete, something as simple as collecting the right Wispon for the job would be child's play.

As for the Avatar itself, the species you play as should be geared towards whatever is most beneficial to whatever you're doing, so the Avatar species should be free game, since setting up separate charts for every species in the game would just be redundant.

And on that note, there should be four divisions for the charts, those being Modern Sonic, Classic Sonic, Avatar, and Tag Team, since these are the four types of levels in the game. You could lump the Tag Team stages with the Avatar stages though, so that would make things simpler. The only level that would be difficult to categorize is the final boss, since this boss fight features three of these four types of gameplay, those being Classic, Avatar, and Tag Team. You could lump it together with Classic Sonic, since he's the one you initially play as in Phase 1, but I'll leave that up to the one who makes the charts to decide that. Heck, the boss levels are clearly designated throughout the game, (Except Metal Sonic) so it wouldn't be a problem to make a separate category for the bosses.

The last thing I want to discuss is version differences

One major difference I can think of right away deals with a glitch discovered by our very own sitewide champion, DarkspinesSonic. In this video he published back in mid November of 2017, he showcased one of two methods that can be used in stage 14 to walk on the first waterslide and infinitely kill respawning enemies to maximize both score and rings, which are 99,999,999 for score and 999 for rings respectively. The thing is, it's not clarified whether or not this is possible to do on the current version of the game, 1.01, and since some games require the latest version of the game to be used due to difficulty with downgrading to a previous version, it should be discussed whether or not stats should be done on the latest version of the game. If it can be done on the 1.01 version of the game, then the discussion should shift to whether or not to allow this.

There was also a time-stop bug found on stage 24, which is used to freeze the in-game timer throughout the entire level, so it should be discussed whether or not to allow that. This one is CONFIRMED to only work on the 1.0 release of the game and was patched in the 1.01 update. Here's the video in case you want to see it for yourself.

There were other things adjusted and fixed in the 1.01 update, like certain boss fights, certain Wispon abilities, and the player character's reaction when taking damage, so this means that some levels of the game will play differently depending on what version of the game you are playing, making the discussion about this all the more critical. I personally think the 1.01 version should be the one played, and make it so the current version of the game is to be used for competition in the future.

Okay, I'm about done with this mega post, and I've discussed about everything I can think of at this point. This took me all morning to write, and quite a bit of research, so if you think I missed something, let me know, and more importantly, tell me your thoughts for Forces competition down below. I'm excited to be the one to bring news of potential charts for Sonic Forces to TSC, I just hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read all of this, and I'll see you all on the charts!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 03:43:17 AM by Zeupar »

Offline TheRealShadnic

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2018, 05:09:20 AM »
Hey,

Awesome to see, that the charts can/will happen :) I think I'm able to submit to all charts, just need to figure out how to film them.

My take on the rules:

Super Sonic should be banned.
DLC should be added. We have Sonic 06's Very Hards too, no reason not to have.
Hard difficulty should be set, as the game suggests that for the leaderboards too.
I don't think we should allow score multipliers, as it'll take too much time to set the 3x up and you can see your pre-multiplier score even during the bonus is active. It also only lasts 30 minutes per day, so you can't really compete much.
SOS should be imo banned for RNG reasons, but couldn't you just rent an avatar so you could use two and make SOS useless? In that case 2 avatars could be allowed.
Wispons could be used, don't see why not. Banning some would just make things harder. Of course we could have a rule to only use basic versions, which is okay for me too (makes score/etc. more pure).

Imo charts could be like in Sonic 06, so we'd have Classic/Modern/Avatar/Tag/Boss.

Most recent version should also be used, but not the infinite rings/score glitch. I have the most recent PS4 version and did the water-walk glitch last month, I guess it's the 1.01.

Hyped to see the charts :) Thanks hfactor and Zeupar ^_^
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2018, 11:59:02 AM »
I don't think we should allow score multipliers, as it'll take too much time to set the 3x up and you can see your pre-multiplier score even during the bonus is active. It also only lasts 30 minutes per day, so you can't really compete much.
SOS should be imo banned for RNG reasons, but couldn't you just rent an avatar so you could use two and make SOS useless? In that case 2 avatars could be allowed.
Most recent version should also be used, but not the infinite rings/score glitch. I have the most recent PS4 version and did the water-walk glitch last month, I guess it's the 1.01.
Wispons could be used, don't see why not. Banning some would just make things harder. Of course we could have a rule to only use basic versions, which is okay for me too (makes score/etc. more pure).

Hyped to see the charts :) Thanks hfactor and Zeupar ^_^
Yeah, in order to compete with the 3x Score Multiplier, you pretty much have to know your route in advance, which is what I did, practiced before the 3x multiplier came into play, then gunned for it all throughout the multiplier. If you want a full hour of 3x, you have to wait until 11:30 PM and have the next day's 3x daily complete. I'm fine with not allowing this for Score Attack competition to keep it more balanced.

Rental Avatar? Ohhh... yeah I totally forgot about this mechanic, I didn't realize that this functioned exactly the same as the green SOS mission, so I suppose the Rental Avatar function would make two Avatar competition much easier to setup and reasonable to allow for competition. I've never used it, I just assumed it would overwrite the Avatar character you were using when I played, so it never occurred to me that it could be useful.

Ah, so it is possible to walk on water in 1.01, nice to finally know that. It'd be kinda boring to see the charts for stage 14 be a bunch of maxed out stats cuz of the walk on water glitch.

Your Avatar HAS to use a Wispon of some kind, and I thought about allowing only the basic Wispons for competition, but I still stand by the notion that getting the right Wispon is child's play. S-ranking all the levels and meeting all the challenge times, with few exceptions, *COUGHSTAGE27* is pretty simple to do.

I'm equally as hyped :3 Zeupar moved my original post here. If he meant this post, he didn't clarify that cuz he said to start this discussion in a thread I started, and I didn't start this thread.

EDIT: After spending many hours yesterday messing around with the Rental Avatar system, and loading it up again today, the Rental Avatar system seems to keep giving me the same options repeatedly, and I don't just mean similar characters, I mean the EXACT SAME CHARACTERS over and over again. Now I'm not sure how the system decides what other players' Avatars to give you, and it's making me reconsider the Rental Avatar option as far as allowing it.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 10:30:45 AM by hfactor66 »

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2019, 12:38:18 PM »
Here are the rules that are planned to go up for Sonic Forces charts:

* Use of Super Sonic in all Classic/Modern missions is banned.
* Difficulty setting must be set to Hard.
* Use of any feature that was removed in the newest version of the game is prohibited.
* Use of a rental avatar is prohibited.
* SOS missions are prohibited.

Rings Division
* Use of walking on the waterslide in Stage 14 Aqua Road to collect additional rings is prohibited.
* Rings must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).

Scores Division
* Submissions shall use the score displayed before the multiplier is applied.
* Use of walking on the waterslide in Stage 14 Aqua Road to destroy additional enemies or collect additional rings is prohibited.
* Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).

The charts will be divided into "Times" "Rings" and "Score" for the main 30 stages with divisions "Avatar" "Classic Sonic" "Modern Sonic" and "Tag Team" except for Stage 30 VS. Death Egg Robot which uses all three characters. This would be its own division, perhaps "Triple Team". The times for Secret, Extra, and Shadow stages will go under "Extra" with ring and score stats put under "Rings" and "Scores" using the same divisions as the main 30 stages, except for Shadow which would be "Shadow".
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 03:22:50 AM »
Man, I hop on TSC to post a Mania time and I see this. So much time has passed since the last post in this thread, I honestly thought this idea ultimately ended up going nowhere. It makes me glad to see that all the analysis I did on this game last summer didn’t go to waste. After reading over everything laid out in Zurg’s post, I’d say it all seems pretty sensible competition wise. Can’t wait to hit the charts with this one, gonna have to dig up my old Avatar RAs where I only used one Avatar though, since both SOS and Rentals will apparently be disallowed. Maybe I’ll finally have a reason to RA the Classic levels…

shudders at the thought

There is one oddity I want to address though, and I’m surprised I didn’t bring this up last summer, and that’s RA on Stage 13, Casino Forest. Like many casino themed zones, it has those slot machines you can play over & over again until you cap out on rings. I felt like this was worth mentioning since Casino Night in Sonic 2 was all but left out of RA competition for this very reason, and years later in Sonic 2 2013 was allowed for competition under the rule that you weren’t allowed to play the slots. I’m wondering if something similar should be done here, considering this also flew under the radar in Studiopolis when Mania was added.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 11:27:15 AM by hfactor66 »

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2019, 11:32:03 AM »
Here is some more information on the planned rules as some points have not been fully addressed and charts should be up soon.

Physical copies of the 1.00 version of the game are available, so banning that version is not reasonable and there are not enough differences to warrant separate boards at this time. The time-stop glitch will be prohibited.

The decision to prohibit the use of the rental avatar was based on the small amount of feedback from the community. I do not play with an internet connection so I have not seen how much of a problem getting the right avatar can be. This is an easy rule to change, should the community want rental avatars included in competition.

There are levels, mostly boss fights, with respawning rings and an unlimited timer. These levels will not have ring or score attacks unless there is support to include them. Stage 13 Casino Forest will have charts with use of the slot machines prohibited.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2019, 11:28:17 AM »
So I did a bunch of boss 999s for nothing! D: well I got to post them on CyberScore I guess. That’s what I figured anyway with the bosses, I mean who in their right mind is gonna have the patience for 30+ minute RAs of most bosses? What I can tell you though, is that I know of 2 boss fights in this game that do have a finite end, (because I actually reached it in testing) and those are Metal Sonic and the third encounter with Infinite. I documented both of these, but I haven’t uploaded the video I have of the one for Metal Sonic. I would be happy to if you’d like evidence of this.

I’d say the decision on rentals is absolutely reasonable, since not everyone (like you yourself said) plays with an internet connection, so why force them online? It is a bit limiting for RA, but it just means you don’t have to monkey around with soft resetting to get an Avatar that has what you’re looking for, which I’d be glad to not have to worry about upon returning to this game. The SOS mission is even less reliable for this, since you really have no control over it, and you only get one chance with it if you do happen to get what you’re looking for.

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2019, 10:56:00 PM »
"A half hour RA... Plz don't allow this TSC if there's RA on the bosses."
Why? Why did I have to find a video with this description?

So there is interest in having these charts, no mention of the score attacks though. A concern I had with these was an assumption that the game did not have a time over and runs for these stats would take several hours or days to achieve. This was a big oversight on my part, there is a time over at one hour. This means some of the ring attacks will max out at 999 with a good amount of endurance while others will take too long to reach 999 rings. The score attacks will certainly fall short of 99999999 and can host actual competition. I do not see a reason to leave these charts out.

Plus, it would bother me knowing that CyberScore is hosting these charts if they were omitted here.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 01:10:49 AM »
"A half hour RA... Plz don't allow this TSC if there's RA on the bosses."
Why? Why did I have to find a video with this description?

I’ll bet anything it’s one of my videos XD probably put that there as a joke. I actually didn’t know there was a time over at one hour. I’ll admit, I’ve done many long grinds for 999s on bosses, but none of them took more than 40 minutes, the longest one was the second encounter with Infinite, which took around 38 minutes.

EDIT: Yep, it’s my Zavok 999 video. The first one that I did. With that in mind, you just gave me an idea for score attack on Infinite second encounter, now I know what I’m doing tonight…

EDIT 2: Something just occurred to me with the ban on Rentals, that would also limit speedruns that utilize this system to drastically speed up levels and bosses, such as Stage 27, the third encounter with Infinite. The combo of Drill and Void works wonders for this level, because you can drill into him when he charges at you, then swap to Void and use it to get rid of all the badniks he summons around him quicker. Rentals really are a delicate issue tbh, because on one hand, I’m fine with limiting them for the sake of people who don’t play online and aren’t able to take advantage of this system to make competition more pure, but at the same time, I’ve experienced firsthand how the Rental system can improve your stats and allow for some really creative and clever strategies in every category, and to some, it would be a tragedy to prevent them from competing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 10:34:58 PM by hfactor66 »

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2019, 02:17:22 PM »
Hey I've done an RA in S3 that took 40 minutes before and I dont see anyone complaining about it...

Y'all whippersnappers should learn the value of patience.

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 12:57:17 AM »
Hey I've done an RA in S3 that took 40 minutes before and I dont see anyone complaining about it...

Y'all whippersnappers should learn the value of patience.

XD SDM chiming in at the best time as always. Never change, dude.

I may have only been a competitor since 2014, but…

I did two one hour long SAs on Stage 17 two nights ago cuz the first one wasn’t that good, and the close to 9.4 million point run I uploaded still has so much room for improvement. Put that on top of the other half hour to 40 in game minute long RAs I’ve done on this game, I’d say I know a thing or two about patience. I mean if that’s not enough, the ultimate proof is my Rush/Rush Adventure RA stats. Several years of my life went into that. Too many resets cuz of that damn RNG…

I also spent a month on Rush grinding the AL boss cuz I fucked up a breakthrough attack pattern the first time I got it.

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 03:33:49 PM »
Regarding rental avatars, most speedruns use them and they offer more to the strategy in competing for record stats. When I made the post for planed rules, the forum had been inactive and there was overall support for allowing them but also brought up was concern on how the rental avatar system picks avatars. This issue has not been brought up since so I assume it is not going to be a significant problem for competition. It is also safe to assume most competitors will have reasonable access to the online features so there is not much to support limiting the potential that could be achieved with rentals.

I do not mean to tease the idea of ring stats that exceed 999 but the score does go up by 100 each time a ring is collected. This could be very difficult to identify during scenes with a lot of action but the possibility is there. As it is, score attacks still benefit from collecting rings beyond the 999th ring. Too bad they did not do something like SA(DX) where the result screen shows ring totals above 999.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

Zero Point Championships held: Sonic 4: Episode Metal

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 04:51:24 PM »
Maybe Rentals could have Freestyle category or same sort of stats like Sonic Generations "True Time Attack"
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 01:12:11 AM »
I do not mean to tease the idea of ring stats that exceed 999 but the score does go up by 100 each time a ring is collected. This could be very difficult to identify during scenes with a lot of action but the possibility is there. As it is, score attacks still benefit from collecting rings beyond the 999th ring. Too bad they did not do something like SA(DX) where the result screen shows ring totals above 999.

I wish they would have too, it would make levels that have well over 999 rings more fun to reasonably compete on. Stage 7 has so many rings that you can get 999 in less than 90 seconds. I’ve done it multiple times, lol.

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2019, 10:14:42 AM »
Prison Hall, right?

*googles*

Oh, Arsenal Pyramid too, I guess. Prison Hall was the first thing that came to mind for me, as running around with Void makes getting 999 there trivial.

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2019, 05:55:55 PM »
Maybe Rentals could have Freestyle category or same sort of stats like Sonic Generations "True Time Attack"

Does anyone else have an opinion on this idea? Rental avatars also change how competition works for ring and score attacks. Is there interest in competing in any of the categories separate from with rental avatars? Are they too similar to make it worth separating? One of these (Rentals or No Rentals) could be a separate category that may or may not count toward the rankings or they could be separate divisions, like different character choices for the same level.

Looking through the levels, I see very few opportunities for rentals to make a difference in time attack. The fastest times I could find for avatar stages did not make use of the rental in any stage.

Many of the stages have rings that are out of reach, depending on the wispon, and require a second wispon to collect additional rings/points. However, some stages do not really have anything extra to offer with a rental, such as Stage 17 VS. Infinite or some of the secret and extra stages.

I do not see enough reason to separate rental avatars for times stats. I see some reason to separate ring and score charts but only for some stages. For how much trouble it is to avoid separating charts that would overlap and the lack of support for this, I think leaving rentals and no rentals on the same charts is the better option.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 02:33:42 AM »
Looking through the levels, I see very few opportunities for rentals to make a difference in time attack. The fastest times I could find for avatar stages did not make use of the rental in any stage.

Really? Because I can think of three stages off the top of my head from my own experience where having a Rental makes a huge impact on your time, and those are Stage 19 against Metal Sonic, Stage 27 against Infinite, and Stage 29, Final Judgement. Since Stage 19 and 27 are both “endless” runner style boss fights, having two Wispons makes a huge impact, because having certain Wispons at certain times drastically speeds up the fight. Void and Drill, as I’ve mentioned before, works wonders as a Rental combo on Stage 27, because you can speed up two of Infinite’s attacks this way. You can drill him when he charges towards you, and Void the badniks he summons immediately after that, not to mention you can use those same tactics against Metal Sonic.

Stage 29 I’ve found to have a drastic difference in time with using a Rental, and that’s because of the three tube things you have to destroy after the boring on-rails section. The best combo I’ve found to use to destroy them as quickly as possible is Hover and Cube. (The only useful application I’ve ever found for Hover, lol) Knocking at least two badniks into one of the tubes with Hover will instantly destroy it, and a row of six spawn right next to two of the three tubes immediately at the checkpoint, so that leaves you with just one left, and I’ve found that Cube dispatches that last one the fastest, because you’re able to take it out in one move with a jump attack, something I can’t say for any other Wispon, even the almighty Drill, the speedrunner’s most common choice in this game.

So help me god, if there’s a way for Drill to somehow be faster on Stage 29, I’m gonna flip a table, cuz I’m sick of Drill being the king of speedrunning in this game…

Offline Zurggriff

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2019, 08:41:10 PM »
So help me god, if there’s a way for Drill to somehow be faster on Stage 29, I’m gonna flip a table, cuz I’m sick of Drill being the king of speedrunning in this game…
The Drill strat in this video appears to be 3 seconds faster than the Hover + Cube strat you used https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzQpQ9Cw1S8
Please go easy on me.

Stage 27 is faster with Void + Drill. I missed that. I also missed that this combo works in Stage 19 because skipping the quick time event apparently makes it possible to take out Metal Sonic without dealing with the extra badniks. This game is generating actual discussions now which is great. I am trying to figure out exactly how the community wants the charts set up which is coming with some difficulty. Even if the other stages are all faster without the rental avatar, having a rental (requiring it to be used somewhere in the stage) does change the run. If we want separate charts for rentals and no rentals, we need a solution for chart format. The charts will not go up until this is resolved, along with any other concerns that come up as changes after the charts are up will be difficult.

And, yes, Drill dominating speedrunning is a terrible waste of wispon variety which is why I have been going through stages without Drill to start out.
Championships held: Sonic 2, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Mania, Sonic 4: Episode Metal, Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Forces

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Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2019, 08:44:01 PM »
Here's a thought:

Use divisions for the wispons, and rank all 9(?) separately.

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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2019, 02:04:48 AM »
The Drill strat in this video appears to be 3 seconds faster than the Hover + Cube strat you used https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzQpQ9Cw1S8
Please go easy on me.
Verdamnt! I must be missing something then, back to the drawing board with Final Judgement I guess… *sigh* I’m used to this sort of thing. Also I agree, I think leaving Rentals alone would be best, gives players the leisure to choose whether or not they should use a Rental. It’s much more beneficial for SA and RA, and as you’ve pointed out, doesn’t mean much for speedrunning in most cases, since Drill is fucking god at it, literally built to go fast.

Here's a thought:

Use divisions for the wispons, and rank all 9(?) separately.

* SpinDashMaster shot

Lulz. tbh I thought about that too. I don’t know if it would be worth the effort honestly, cuz I’m not sure how many people would be interested in the idea of having individual charts for every Wispon on the Avatar stages. Even though I hate the fact that Drill is king in just about every Avatar stage, there’s plenty of Wispons that would pretty much just be deadweight in a speedrun. On the other hand, though, Cube is most definitely king when it comes to Ring Attack and Score Attack, (I mean come on, tons of bonus rings, tons of bonus points, AND double points as long as you have 100+ rings? You can’t beat that for RA and SA unless the level barely has any enemies) so it’d be interesting to see some other kinds of competition with different Wispons in these categories. I remember having to put Burst and Void together with a Rental for SA on Stage 20 to beat my Cube score, that is until I found a better strategy with Cube which crushed my Rental combo’s score. XD

Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: Sonic Forces rankings
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2019, 01:57:40 PM »
I'm all for having times with the rental thing, just so charts can be up now. :)
I love to play Mario and Sonic games with a mix of Donkey Kong and Kirby games. Yes I'm a Nintendo nerd.

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