Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute


    Print

Author Topic: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute  (Read 25483 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DsSaster

  • TSC's KevinTurtle
  • Broseidon
  • TSC: DarkspinesSonic
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 305
  • HURRY UP DAMMIT!!!!
    • View Profile
Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« on: August 06, 2012, 02:32:36 PM »
The speed glitch that is used in Sonic Generations (and Sonic Unleashed) is performed when you tilt your analog very slightly to the point where Sonic's slowest walking speed is achieved, you have enough speed (usually gained through a boost or speed pad), and are in the air.

With that out of the way, here is the dispute. There is the possibility of having a controller with enough wear on the analog stick so that the speed glitch can be executed without having to place and hold the analog stick into position yourself. I need to know if this is TSC legal or not?

In this same regard, a rubber band can be used to keep the analog stick in place for easy execution as well. As with the previous scenario, is that TSC legal or not?
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline bertin

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2012, 02:39:30 PM »
Regarding to wearing your control stick until it's able to pull off the speed glitch with no effort is about as close to having a "modded controller" as you can possibly get so I'll vote for that being banned. The rubber band trick probably not since that's about the same as using a spoon to mash buttons faster (i.e. Dead Line Boss in Sonic Rush).

Offline SpanielWare

  • One can dream of a new Sega console, can't they?
  • TSC: danieldude
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 277
  • "Better behave yourselves..."
    • View Profile
    • SoundCloud Nonsense
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2012, 03:14:48 PM »
I definitely vote -no- to using a worn controller that gives the player an advantage, because as bertin has pointed out it's pretty much the same as using a modded game controller. Bash me if you will, but I also believe that spoon, pencil and rubber band tricks should also be banned from the competition, as the player is using an external item to again give them a gameplay advantage, items that are not part of the game controller. I know this sounds daft, but a player with a spoon, rubber band or pencil can have the upper hand on a player who doesn't. Using one's fingernail is a debatable issue, but (here goes...) I think this should also be banned as (this sounds stupid but) players with longer fingernails have an advantage over players without. It's not a part of the game controller, and, in my opinion, should thereby be made illegal. As you can see I have quite strong and strict opinions on the issue, but I think the competition should be made as fair to all the competitors as possible, and that means eradicating these sorts of allowances that give players the upper hand on each other. These are just my personal opinions on the matter.
StH JJ1 Sega++>+++ WkS+ AdS++ Arc++ Sal+++i!^"t Tal+++i^t Ant++ Coc++ Amy++!^"t Pen++!^" P+{++} Dfho{psw}[w] $+++{++++} E17~ Ay98 GM CoUK | Sega Technical Institute... engenders an unfortunate initialism.

<Starlight_Glimmer> i dont make the news I just report it


Offline SpanielWare

  • One can dream of a new Sega console, can't they?
  • TSC: danieldude
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 277
  • "Better behave yourselves..."
    • View Profile
    • SoundCloud Nonsense
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 03:20:16 PM »
Like HyperSonic7701 said, it would be essentially impossible to make sure people don't use the tricks, but enforcing these rules would be better than not enforcing them at all, as honest players would (hopefully) stick to them. That is, if the majority of members share the same views as I do.
StH JJ1 Sega++>+++ WkS+ AdS++ Arc++ Sal+++i!^"t Tal+++i^t Ant++ Coc++ Amy++!^"t Pen++!^" P+{++} Dfho{psw}[w] $+++{++++} E17~ Ay98 GM CoUK | Sega Technical Institute... engenders an unfortunate initialism.

<Starlight_Glimmer> i dont make the news I just report it


Offline Inuyasha

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2012, 03:22:18 PM »
I'd rather see the speed glitch banned altogether, but that's just me.

Maybe without that stupid glitch TAing the game would actually be a little bit fun.

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2012, 03:54:05 PM »
Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 03:57:18 PM »
Yeah, I agree it's definitely an unfair advantage for anyone who happens to have a controller like that. I would be in favor of banning it if anyone could actually come up with a way to ban it. It doesn't seem reasonable to require everyone to play using a brand new controller. Not to mention actually enforcing the rule.

Similarly speaking I'm against rubber banding the controller.

Quote
Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.

uh, I don't understand what exactly you're trying to say here?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2012, 04:06:23 PM by Umbreon »

Offline Werey

  • TSC TOP 30!
  • TSC Profile
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 610
  • Beep beep Wereycar coming through Beep Beep
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 04:31:08 PM »
Inuyasha there's nothing stopping you from NOT using the glitch. You can still get decent times so stop whining about it being banned.

Other than this I can see why a worn out controller could be an issue, though as Umbreon said it'd be lame having to get a new controller just to play one game. And the rubber band thing, I ahve no clue

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2012, 05:08:15 PM »
Quote
Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.

uh, I don't understand what exactly you're trying to say here?

banning the generations glitch times will be ok for me but not the Unleashed ones.

Many of my Generations submissions (last three months)were using my broken controler and without touching the stick (for example i made Shadow hard WR on 3rd time) Blast effect and M-speed tricks in my Times and videos are pulled automatically without touching anything.

BTW hypersonic and danieldue made a great point. You cant determine time legitimacy until you see player hands in a video.


Offline Werey

  • TSC TOP 30!
  • TSC Profile
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 610
  • Beep beep Wereycar coming through Beep Beep
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 05:11:37 PM »
So why did you say you weren't using either method? if this was banned, your times would be banned too, right?

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 05:19:57 PM »
So why did you say you weren't using either method? if this was banned, your times would be banned too, right?

It was meaned that i was using third method (broken controler).not the two listed.

And yeah. It looks weird but im not against banning my Gens times.

Offline Werey

  • TSC TOP 30!
  • TSC Profile
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 610
  • Beep beep Wereycar coming through Beep Beep
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 05:22:34 PM »
The broken controller comes under the damaged analog stick method though, so if they were to be banned and you say you got htem with your broken controller, that would make your times banned, too?

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 05:27:54 PM »
Dss mentioned these

1. enough wear
2. rubber band

3. broken analog stick

4. fair play

Offline Werey

  • TSC TOP 30!
  • TSC Profile
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 610
  • Beep beep Wereycar coming through Beep Beep
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 05:30:53 PM »
Enough wear is basically a broken analog stick where you have your stick permanently in a certain posisition which is going to help you perform the glitch better. So therefore your times would be invalid. Bad explanation but you get the message.

Championships: Sonic Unleashed DLC.

Offline DsSaster

  • TSC's KevinTurtle
  • Broseidon
  • TSC: DarkspinesSonic
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 305
  • HURRY UP DAMMIT!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 05:35:26 PM »
A breakdown of my post to clear up any confusion.

The speed glitch that is used in Sonic Generations (and Sonic Unleashed) is performed when you tilt your analog very slightly to the point where Sonic's slowest walking speed is achieved, you have enough speed (usually gained through a boost or speed pad), and are in the air.

^ This is how the glitch is done.

With that out of the way, here is the dispute. There is the possibility of having a controller with enough wear on the analog stick so that the speed glitch can be executed without having to place and hold the analog stick into position yourself. I need to know if this is TSC legal or not?

^ Should having enough wear on your controller to execute the speed glitch automatically (in other words, the analog stick is in the correct position to do the speed glitch without you touching it [yes, this means a broken controller as well]) be banned?

In this same regard, a rubber band can be used to keep the analog stick in place for easy execution as well. As with the previous scenario, is that TSC legal or not?

^ Should using a rubber band to hold the analog stick in place to execute the speed glitch automatically be banned?
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 05:36:27 PM »
why not the Unleashed ones? Having a broken controller can help in Unleashed too, can't it?

Haven't done it in Unleashed so I'm not clear on the differences.

Offline Ajavalo

  • I'm rolling around at the speed of sound!
  • TSC: afolita
  • win7 msie10
  • Posts: 28
  • Hahahaha!
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2012, 03:30:55 PM »
The only logical solutions I see are banning the glitch altogether or leaving things how they are now.

Banning certain controller issues sounds incredibly awkward: I can tell you that controller advantages and disadvantages exist in pretty much every game, such as the Wiimote's motion unresponsiveness in SUWii (and lack of a homing attack button), the constant quick stepping glitch experienced by some Sonic Generations PC players, and people who use a keyboard (its layout is different than that of a controller). And about the rubber band thing: as long as you don't use some kind of cheat feature such as autofire, IMO you're free to manage your controller in any way you feel its better; it's no different than finding a way to shake the Wiimote faster.

And about the total ban: have you considered if the speed glitch is worth joining the list of "big glitches that fuck up the entire game" like those in SA2 and Heroes? Probably not in Generations, but in Unleashed is a different thing (BJG!).

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2012, 07:04:50 PM »
If the speed glitch was banned completely at TSC I would stop competing in Generations at TSC.

Offline DarkAura

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2012, 03:29:22 PM »
In my opinion, I think that using other objects to execute the speed glitch (or anything, in that matter) should be banned. I don't see anyway we can enforce the rule of a worn controller, because asking people to spend money that they might not even have at the moment to be able to post times with the glitch is wrong. I think that the glitch should be banned altogether, though it pains me to say it. It is impossible to be certain if someone is using a modded controller or not, because for all we know it was a lucky run, and we can't ban/remove a stat for someone who was lucky to get a good time.

Sorry Umbreon, but that's my opinion.
hi my name is izzy and i dye my hair to look like scarlett johansson

Offline Magnezone

  • Broseidon
  • TSC: SkyLights
  • win7 firefox
  • Posts: 588
  • YOU CAN PROBABLY READ MY POSTS BETTER NOW
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2012, 09:43:37 PM »
A lot of discussion here is sounding a lot like the discussion in this topic.

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 03:41:22 AM »
GET A LOAD OF THIS!

Okay I need to weigh in my opinion here [#3 yeah boi holla to the high ranker]. People who know me from the irc should be quite (QUITE) aware that I am strictly against any and all forms of the speed glitch (Both Classic/Modern). Part of it is in hopes that maybe people will realise how insanely divided this glitch makes Generations. As I am a PC player, I don't have the convenience of doing it with little to no effort, so hell, if I WOULD do it it probably would be through means like this, with the rubber bands and what not. Because I like to play the game too.

Would a decision like this going negative badly affect the Generations charts? HELL YES. Would it make the competition more accessible instead of Classic records being 1 of the 4 (estimate) out of 111 people on the site who actually use this trick? HELL YES.

I think the biggest question here is do we want records or competition?

That's my say, you guys can work out the rest. As someone who may not even finish the few Extra/Ring charts I have left to go, I am just speaking as someone who was apart of the heat of records flying which-way-but-anywhere when these glitches were getting absolutely understood.

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 04:25:17 AM »
Uhh, we have a lot more than 4 players who use the glitch. It really doesn't divide the charts at all. The only way you could possibly consider that it does that is through the version difference thing, and:

A. we already have a clear stance on version differences that nobody is debating

and

B. it doesn't even apply to the whole game; it's situational, and when it does work - in terms of difficulty, not effectiveness - it's just as hard on console as it is on PC. I just went and did M-speed on Shadow on the PC version on my first try.

As for the biggest question: we want competition. And to have competition you can't arbitrarily ban things because you don't like them. The issue here is broken and modded controllers, not the glitch itself.

edit: not to mention the glitch is totally useless on sky sanctuary, speed highway, and rooftop run, and doesn't significantly break the level in crisis city, seaside hill, or planet wisp... so you really don't even need it to compete in most classic charts anyway

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2012, 06:27:03 AM »
Quote
And to have competition you can't arbitrarily ban things because you don't like them. The issue here is broken and modded controllers, not the glitch itself.

Well, if you DON'T ban it, then you are allowing broken/modded controllers, because you won't be able to moderate it, so I'd say banning the glitch and banning modded controllers are fairly intertwined here. You can't just allow it and instantly know whether a sub is with a broken controller, a modded one, or even just an old one with wear.

Offline DarkAura

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2012, 03:27:30 PM »
I agree. It isn't possible to know if someone used a modded controller or not. In order to keep the leaderboards fully legitamite, we have to ban it. It will be too hard and too much work to make sure the participants aren't using modded controllers and such. I know this is a little unfair to participants who use the speed glitch legitimately, but its one of our only options.
hi my name is izzy and i dye my hair to look like scarlett johansson

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2012, 02:34:35 AM »
We can't enforce half the rules on the site. Hell, we can't even enforce "don't submit stats you didn't get" 100%. Doesn't mean there's no point in having the rule.

In any case, I'd rather allow broken and modded controllers than banning the glitch if it came down to that. Even aside from this glitch, are we really going to start banning stuff just because someone might be able to do it easier than others? If someone had a genesis controller with a sticky C button that caused the input to flicker in and out rapidly, letting them do fast spindashes very easily, are we going to ban spindashing?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 03:02:10 AM by Umbreon »

Offline SB737

  • I make Minecraft videos for a living
  • Broseidon
  • TSC Profile
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 506
  • 6th Sitewide :)
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2012, 03:15:05 AM »
I agree with umbreon, there's no way to monitor whether you cheat or not, so cheating with modded controllers on the blast effect isnt really any different. As umbreon said we're not going to ban spin dashing, people can easily submit fake times - look at the leadeing time and give them a tenth place time - noone will know. Anyone could do the runs on a TAS emulator, or use savestates, but what satisfaction does that give to the person who got the times, that they cheated? To see highly competitive runs the blast effect is really good, as is m-speed etc. Banning it just because some people can cheat with it isn't really a very good solution. Just because you can do the blast effect doesn't mean that you can top the leaderboards - there are loads of added difficult moves to be done on top of them.
If you start banning the blast effect are you going to ban the PC version because the game can run really slow on a computer not powerful enough to run it, giving someone an advantage of playing at slow motion? There are so many aspects that can change how good the times will be - Sonic Speed running is about pushing the games to their limits - how can that be done if we ban everything that can be cheated?..

Honesty is what's needed.
Current Championships: Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles
Former Championships: Sonic Lost World 3DS, Sonic 1 2013, Sonic 2 2013, Sonic 1 GBA, Sonic Generations, Sonic Pocket Adventure

<CodeGirl> [-New Record-] Zeupar got 1:21:25 on SAdva / Times / Egg Rocket 1 (Tails)
<SonicBoom737> I hate you Zeupar
<Zeupar> I love you SonicBoom737, though <3

Offline Inuyasha

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2012, 03:40:28 AM »
If someone had a genesis controller with a sticky C button that caused the input to flicker in and out rapidly, letting them do fast spindashes very easily, are we going to ban spindashing?

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the blast GLITCH was an intentional facet of this game's design.

Hilariously, all such a rule would do is make the divide DEEPER, since PC players need all the damn help they can get to pull off this stupid glitch.

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2012, 03:42:16 AM »
Okay, since when have we ever cared about what was an intentional facet of design or not? It's in the game and that's the only thing that matters.

And no. No it wouldn't.

Offline DarkAura

Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2012, 03:45:29 PM »
I guess we can keep the blast effect glitch, but ban modded controllers. I just have one question though, how can we make sure if someone is using a modded controller or not? Do we make them submit a picture of them using the controller? Do we make someone make a video of their time AND their hands? I just don't know how we can keep the leaderboards clean. One last thing, do we all agree that using items like rubber bands or spoons to mash buttons should be banned?
hi my name is izzy and i dye my hair to look like scarlett johansson

Offline Aitamen

  • TSC Profile
  • win7 firefox
  • Posts: 1130
  • I am a follower of the immortal Dark Falz!
    • View Profile
Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2012, 05:23:58 PM »
Do PC players use controllers?

Further, worn controllers are a ton easier to run with (You think a stiff controller lets you 6-tap easily?), and as long as the input is still human I support it. Spoons/nails, combat sticks, or anything else.


    Print
 

Hits: 3,990 | Hits This Month: 21 | DB Calls: 8 | Mem Usage: 7.13 MB | Time: 0.09s | Printable

The Sonic Center v3.9
Copyright 2003-2011 by The Sonic Center Team.