Why Knuckles/Rouge Speed runs for SA1 (DX) and SA2(Battle) should be removed


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Author Topic: Why Knuckles/Rouge Speed runs for SA1 (DX) and SA2(Battle) should be removed  (Read 10654 times)

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Offline GaryOak

I have to address the issue of how Knuckles/Rouge Time Board's on Sonic Adventure (DX) and Sonic Adventure 2 (Battle) are unneeded and don't show skill in the first place.  I will point out every Issue there are with these boards.

Number 1: The Knuckles levels have the Emerald Shards in random places and it makes getting a good time based on luck. ESPECIALLY in Sonic Adventure 2 due to the level size of Knuckles's/Rouge's levels. Which means most of the times will be based on luck unless you do a glitch which will be addressed in point 2. This would make most times either really long and it would be like that if the glitch was not there.

Number 2: There is a glitch which lets you make your time shorter by making the Emeralds spawn near you. Which shows no skill what so ever and it just there to make you brag about how you beat Pumpkin Hill in 9 seconds or so. To me, speed runs is showing how much skill you have that you can beat a level in a short time. Like darkspines beating City Escape in under 2 minutes. Not doing a glitch based on luck.

Number 3: The levels were not built for speed runners. They were built for exploration. So having Speed Run ranking for a level/set of levels is defeating the original purpose of the level.

I hope TSC sees how having the boards at stupid as I do and remove them. Thanks for reading. Leave your opinion below if you want.

Offline Ring Rush

« Last Edit: August 09, 2010, 05:55:04 PM by Ring Rush »
Current Championships: SSR (5/26/08-Now)
Current Leaderships: SSR Chains [0 Point], SC Rings [0 Point], SSR Scores [0 Point], S3D Rings [0 Point], SSR Times [0 Point], SSR Bosses
Past Leaderships: SA2 Rings, S1GG Rings, SUWii Rings, SBK Times, SBK Chains, SRA Rings, SRA Scores

Offline SadisticMystic

There's no glitch at play, just a list of 32+ items and predetermined knowledge of which of those would be easiest to get to. It's just like knowing, say, that the top path in Aquatic Ruin is better than the bottom path.

Yes there's luck involved. In SA1 the layouts are static once you enter the level and the ideal layout comes with odds 1/216; in SA2 they're regenerated with every life and success requires brute-forcing three generations to their best locations, each of which has odds between 1/32 and 1/45. But just because you have the right location doesn't mean you're automatically good for a record; you still have to convert on the attempt without losing any time. In some locations like the ones in Death Chamber, that can still be quite a task.

And where are you getting a 9-second PH figure? Those locations aren't that close.

You want a fun way to pass the time? Head over to the GoldenEye Elite and try to argue that they should remove their Facility and Frigate rankings, because there's no way to get the best times except by replaying the levels over and over until you get the most favorable results on the explicitly random generations of Dr. Doak's location (Facility) and the hostage escape lines (Frigate). Tell me how long you last there.

And what the hell is "built for speed runners"? Was Super Mario Bros. built for speed runners? I contend that anything in SA2 comes closer to that mystifying ideal than SMB1, and there's no rush to bring down the Mario Center. Besides, then we get into philosophical questions of the "If it was built for speed runners, does that mean it was built not to let you go through the walls? What does that tell you?" variety.

Offline GaryOak

And where are you getting a 9-second PH figure? Those locations aren't that close.

I meant the record times people usually get from using the glitch which is pretty unfair to people who don't know how to use it.


And what the hell is "built for speed runners"? Was Super Mario Bros. built for speed runners? I contend that anything in SA2 comes closer to that mystifying ideal than SMB1, and there's no rush to bring down the Mario Center. Besides, then we get into philosophical questions of the "If it was built for speed runners, does that mean it was built not to let you go through the walls? What does that tell you?" variety.
First why are you mentioning Mario Brothers 1. It has no relevence to what I said. Secondly, when I said built for speed runners. I meant the level was not buit to get a fast time like Sonic's/Shadow's levels. Knuckles's/Rouge's stages were built for exploration to find the emeralds. It's like doing a speed run of something like Halo. The level's were not built for that. Sonic stages are meant to go fast. Not Knuckles and Rouges.

Offline Firstkirbyever

Speed runs are supposed to be challenging to everyone, but not to the point where everyone is fighting over that one hundredth of a second because of a ridicious way to get through a stage. Maybe that's why I didn't care about this site much after getting banned, and probably many others before me. Sure, you can say "don't get on those charts then", but what good will that do? Those are site points I don't have because of some stupid ability to get the emeralds in front of you instead of LOOKING for them.

Speed runs do challenge the player, some glitches are harder to pull off than others, you have the choice of using it or not, I don't see why using a "Glitch" in a run is such a big deal, it would be completely different if someone used a cheating device to set their time to 00'00"00x than it is to use a glitch which even then, requires time after time after time to even MASTER it.
"Don't like sea-food? Well there is GROUND beef!"

Offline Ring Rush

The difference between the 00:00:00 glitches and the casinopolis trick is that the casinopolis trick still leaves room for competition. The 00:00:00 glitch does not: it makes the level instantly degenerative. Plus, the 00:00:00 tricks require a reset of the game timer that does not involve restarting from a checkpoint. No legal trick on TSC does this. There is a pretty clear difference between playing a level slowly and then ending up with a fast time due to a restart sequence and finding an extremely fast, unconventional path through the level.

We determine legality based on what follows the overarching site rules (no cheating devices, hardware modification, etc) and what allows for the fastest competition possible without being degenerative. We avoid being arbitrary whenever we can without contradicting one of the above two, and attempt to have consistant rules across multiple games. If you can think of a better way to determine legality that creates interesting competition without being exceptionally arbitrary, I'd love to hear it.

The website is not too popular, that is true. But that is more because sonic speedrunning is not too popular, not because our rulesets are bad. Furthermore, the site could be advertised better. You can't blame the rules you don't like on all the website's problem.

What is wrong with fighting over a hundredth of a second? It is still competition. The seperation between times doesn't matter, as long as there is some. We don't care if you don't like frame differences between first and second, it is still viable competition and will still be on TSC.
If you really don't like the charts, don't compete in them. End of story.
Current Championships: SSR (5/26/08-Now)
Current Leaderships: SSR Chains [0 Point], SC Rings [0 Point], SSR Scores [0 Point], S3D Rings [0 Point], SSR Times [0 Point], SSR Bosses
Past Leaderships: SA2 Rings, S1GG Rings, SUWii Rings, SBK Times, SBK Chains, SRA Rings, SRA Scores

Offline SadisticMystic

So since "designed for going fast" seems to be the only thing that matters, should we throw out the Tails/Eggman levels too? They're cast as being about making lots of things go BOOM, not about going fast.

People who don't know that the super bounce its the fastest way of gaining lots of height with Sonic (and it gets much more height than ordinary jumps could ever be capable of) will have no chance of keeping up with the record pace in any of those levels. Does that mean we strike those charts too for being unfair? It's just like knowing the closest item locations in the hunting stage: you LEARN THE DAMN GAME if you want to keep competitive.

As for what Super Mario Bros. has to do with anything, it has just as much as the Halo you brought up. Are Halo and Super Mario Bros. built for speedrunning? Certainly less so than even the hunting levels in SA1/2. Yet both of those games have their share of speedrunning. Whether a game is worth running is a decision made independently by each player, not by an overruling designer, and certainly not by one player attempting to channel that designer onto another's will. When even Pumpkin Hill, a notoriously annoying stage to the casual player, sees 112 submissions, those 112 have all made their choice.

Offline GaryOak

So since "designed for going fast" seems to be the only thing that matters, should we throw out the Tails/Eggman levels too? They're cast as being about making lots of things go BOOM, not about going fast.

I used Sonic/Shadow as a example. I said they were built for getting a fast time. But I didn't say that it was the only factor that mattered. I just used that to further explain. But anything Exploration like is not built for speed running. If it's linear. It's better for speed running. But even if it has a little exploration like the Werehog level's in SU can be speed runned because it isn't built around exploration. Plus the locations you have to go in those levels when you do have some exploration to do a simple puzzle doesnt change everytime you play like in the Knuckles/Rouge levels and are not based on luck.

People who don't know that the super bounce its the fastest way of gaining lots of height with Sonic (and it gets much more height than ordinary jumps could ever be capable of) will have no chance of keeping up with the record pace in any of those levels. Does that mean we strike those charts too for being unfair? It's just like knowing the closest item locations in the hunting stage: you LEARN THE DAMN GAME if you want to keep competitive.

The super bounce does not base on luck like the other glitch and can be practiced unlike the other glitch. Plus when you said to learn where the emerald shards are, you didn't even think about when they change. So each time you play it's different and much much more difficult to learn then how to super bounce.

As for what Super Mario Bros. has to do with anything, it has just as much as the Halo you brought up. Are Halo and Super Mario Bros. built for speedrunning? Certainly less so than even the hunting levels in SA1/2. Yet both of those games have their share of speedrunning. Whether a game is worth running is a decision made independently by each player, not by an overruling designer, and certainly not by one player attempting to channel that designer onto another. When even Pumpkin Hill, a notoriously annoying stage to the casual player, sees 112 submissions, those 112 have all made their choice.
I only brought up Halo to further explain my example like I said unlike you when you just made like part of your explanation about it. Like you are now with both games. Plus you said it was up to the player. But they have to play by your rules. Also most of those people on there who practice the game alot, use the glitch or just played like a regular player would have.

Offline Firstkirbyever

I only brought up Halo to further explain my example like I said unlike you when you just made like part of your explanation about it. Like you are now with both games. Plus you said it was up to the player. But they have to play by your rules. Also most of those people on there who practice the game alot, use the glitch or just played like a regular player would have.
I assume halo solves everything, amiright?
You're still not getting the point.
"Don't like sea-food? Well there is GROUND beef!"

Offline GaryOak

I assume halo solves everything, amiright?
You're still not getting the point.

What point? I was just addressing some beef I have with the site on the beef board.
Also...HAYLO DOEZ SOLV3Z EVRYDING!!!11!1112111@#!@#!@
Jking

Offline Ring Rush

So where is the line drawn for what glitch is called "freestyle" and what glitch isn't? I'd claim that Final Egg, for instance, is way more glitched than Casinopolis or Icecap. I'd also claim that Twinkle Park is extremely glitched....in fact pretty much every level in SADX is. Should all charts be freestyled? What is the point then? What if a level had a 1 second timesaver, should it be freestyled? What about a 2 second one? A 4 second one? A 30 second one? Where is this magical line for when a glitch is major enough to freestyle it?

We don't care if people want to show off. We care who has the fastest time. If you are not using the glitch, you do not have the fastest time, and you deserve a lower position on the chart. End of story.
Current Championships: SSR (5/26/08-Now)
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Offline GaryOak

So where is the line drawn for what glitch is called "freestyle" and what glitch isn't? I'd claim that Final Egg, for instance, is way more glitched than Casinopolis or Icecap. I'd also claim that Twinkle Park is extremely glitched....in fact pretty much every level in SADX is. Should all charts be freestyled? What is the point then? What if a level had a 1 second timesaver, should it be freestyled? What about a 2 second one? A 4 second one? A 30 second one? Where is this magical line for when a glitch is major enough to freestyle it?
Any glitch which can makes a 2-5 minute level into a 5-10 second level. Which would defeat the purpose of the level.

We don't care if people want to show off. We care who has the fastest time. If you are not using the glitch, you do not have the fastest time, and you deserve a lower position on the chart. End of story.
Oh so if someone can't preform a glitch he deserves to be last. This is a reason why this site isn't popular. If the boards were more fair and balanced. Then people would be here and the best could be up top. No the people who used a glitch.

Offline Parax

I'm just going to say you guys are completely missing the point of the site. We track the best times that have been achieved. Period. We don't care how it was done as long as it doesn't break any rules, we don't care how much skill it took, we don't care how easy it's going to be for people to beat it, we don't care how hard it is to pull off a trick, we don't care if you think it defeats the purpose of the level. We are not banning something because you find it hard to learn to do, that's just ridiculous. Nor are we banning things based on things that are completely opinion-based. I'd just stop trying because you aren't going to convince anyone. I'm surprised anyone's been putting effort into making arguments here really.

Offline Ring Rush

Okay, so a glitch that makes a 2-5 minute level into a 12 second level is okay then, like SM's original version of the trick. Or if you say that is bad, what about the old GC trick that makes a 2-5 minute level into a 30 second level? What happens if you attempt the trick many times and finish with a time of 1:30?

Also, once again people are talking about the purpose of the level. And once again, we don't care about the purpose of the level. If you really want to argue, please stop saying the following words: "purpose", "intention", "developers", "original".

Also, what defines best is who has the fastest time. Any other definition of best is subjective. So if the people who have the fastest time are on top, then yes, the best are on top and the worst are on the bottom. If you can't do the glitch, and get a green time because of it, for the purpose of that chart, you are bad. Learn the glitch, practice, or else simply deal with it.


Edit: Ah well, parax beat me to a post. I'm just going to post this anyways since I already typed it out.
Current Championships: SSR (5/26/08-Now)
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Offline Magnezone

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you LEARN THE DAMN GAME if you want to keep competitive.
The sad truth, the sad, sad truth right there.
...

Really? Wow. Learning something in order to get good at it. That's some terrible, terrible reality there...

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If the boards were more fair and balanced.

...I call troll thread.

Offline SonicAD

aaaaand the thread-creator's been banned twice before. Don't think there's anything useful here.

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