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Offline Ring Rush

Attention Brian_pso
« on: August 05, 2008, 02:22:29 PM »
http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_adventure_2_b/times/green_forest/mission_1

Would you have an videos or pictures of the time? Or can you explain what you did differently than everyone else?
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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 04:14:31 PM »
if that time is legit, my GOD! 1:28 IS possible with my tricks that the 1:33 run does not use, but 1:28 would be as perfect as 1:35 or maybe 1:36 on CE1, which would be ridiculous on this lame 90% luck level. even my target time for green forest would only be 1:31 or perhaps 1:30 at the craziest.

theres a fair chance he has a crazy new strategy though too, it is quite a big wide open level with loads of possibilities if you play around. hopefully brian can provide us some info or a great video.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 04:24:15 PM by Paragod »

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 02:30:32 PM »
Hi guys, lol I knew you`ll think it`s a crazy time. Ok let`s explain what I did: As Paragod has said, I have a new strategy for this stage, I have the Yoshifan`s video of 1:34:77 of Green Forest, and I`ve studying it for a while, there`s a lot of things that can be improved in this stage, but not to reach 1:28:94. When trying to beat his time I remembered of a shortcut that I`ve found in 2004 when my Dreamcast was alive, but after his death I simply forget it xD, with this shortcut I was able to improve the time of this stage. I have the video of this time but it`s too big(60 mb) and I have a Dial Up connection :(. Be patient dudes, maybe in a month I`ll be uploading the video, because I`ll have a decent connection. Now I can`t have broadband due to money problems ok?
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Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2008, 02:32:56 PM »
maybe do what I used to do with dial-up, upload/download a vid while you  sleep and hope your connection doesn't go out while you sleep >_>
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Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2008, 04:52:12 PM »
Ok, I`ll try to upload the video later, but for now I`ll show some print screens of it ok? Here they are: http://www.mediafire.com/?dnw6jc1gmm7 I`m proud of what I`ve got, I don`t even dreamed of being able to do a speedrun in the level of Paragod, Yoshifan and etc... but I did!!! I was faster than Yoshifan till the first spring of the sequence that makes you go up the tree, where his time is 0.14 sec faster than mine. I know many of you will improve this, `cause I can improve this too. Haha, let`s see how many days this record will remain mine xD. For all of us sucess, sucess, and more sucess!!!
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Offline SadisticMystic

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2008, 05:33:18 PM »
This confirms a trick I've been suspecting for a while.

Back when the SA2 BBS was still up, Japanese rankings had this level possessing a Dreamcast-only shortcut that reportedly yielded 1:22. The reported achiever never came to defend the time afterwards, or provide any details, but as I went through the pages of past discussions I read something that appeared to say that DC can land on an invisible floor somewhere among the glut of invisible walls surrounding the tree climb. Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine more details from that discussion alone, but picture 5 in that archive gave me just the missing piece.

Here's what needs doing:
The climb starts normally, springing up 1, 2, 3 times. Don't continue on to the 4th spring, but instead jump onto the wooden rail and do a spindash (don't jump!) toward the screen. Actually the proper angle is somewhere between "straight into the screen" and "follow the direction of the rail". If it's done right (and remember, part of doing it right means having the Dreamcast) you land in what appears to be midair, and can then launch a spindash jump to cut out the rest of the climb and go straight to the bungee destination.

Given that the alleged 1:22 dates back at least as far as the best Japanese run on GC was in the 1:41s, is there something further that cuts off 6 more seconds, beyond just speed retention? Who knows.

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2008, 06:32:52 PM »
Yep, that`s the method, but with one diference: If you just spindash, you won`t be able to reach the plataform(I tried), it`s far from the spring plataform, so the only way(AFAIK) to land on it is jumping after the spindash. I made no major mistakes on my run, except for the invisible plataform part, where I lost 1.5 sec because of my nervous state, I could be on the way to do 1:34 all over the stage, and I think 1:25 it`s possible, I`ll try it later, but I really think that I`ve made a good run. If someone could look my times in the prints, please tell me if it`s a good run ok? Let`s take this stage to another level!!!
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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2008, 07:14:09 PM »
I had a feeling you really did get that time, I am glad that you did! it is cool seeing new tricks on levels to take the record far beyond what everybody would expect.

for target times.. hitting that one set of springs at 42 seconds is about the best you can hope for. I think your ending may have been slow though cause hitting the last checkpoint at a low 1:12 should end up with 1:27 but I am not totally sure, once you get the video up I can tell you what the level's potential is :P

Offline Combo

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2008, 07:18:33 PM »
This confirms a trick I've been suspecting for a while.

Back when the SA2 BBS was still up, Japanese rankings had this level possessing a Dreamcast-only shortcut that reportedly yielded 1:22. The reported achiever never came to defend the time afterwards, or provide any details, but as I went through the pages of past discussions I read something that appeared to say that DC can land on an invisible floor somewhere among the glut of invisible walls surrounding the tree climb. Unfortunately I wasn't able to determine more details from that discussion alone, but picture 5 in that archive gave me just the missing piece.

Here's what needs doing:
The climb starts normally, springing up 1, 2, 3 times. Don't continue on to the 4th spring, but instead jump onto the wooden rail and do a spindash (don't jump!) toward the screen. Actually the proper angle is somewhere between "straight into the screen" and "follow the direction of the rail". If it's done right (and remember, part of doing it right means having the Dreamcast) you land in what appears to be midair, and can then launch a spindash jump to cut out the rest of the climb and go straight to the bungee destination.

Given that the alleged 1:22 dates back at least as far as the best Japanese run on GC was in the 1:41s, is there something further that cuts off 6 more seconds, beyond just speed retention? Who knows.
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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 07:51:39 PM »
well, I guess I am the first here besides brian and SM who can say I did it! On DC, I guess it is impossible on GC? it is not working for me there.

from what I can tell it is a waste of time to jump on the rail, I made it to the invisible platform by just spindash jumping from the ground.

if it is DC only I take back what I said about your ending being slower, I forgot the ending on DC is slower cause the last vine puts sonic further back than on GC

now I gotta set a new record, I would of had one (1:15 last check) but I fell out of the loop for no reason at all and wasted time.


Offline Stefan

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 07:59:57 PM »
I can't pull it off on gc either. Oh well.

Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2008, 08:40:13 AM »
well, I guess I am the first here besides brian and SM who can say I did it! On DC, I guess it is impossible on GC? it is not working for me there.

from what I can tell it is a waste of time to jump on the rail, I made it to the invisible platform by just spindash jumping from the ground.

if it is DC only I take back what I said about your ending being slower, I forgot the ending on DC is slower cause the last vine puts sonic further back than on GC

now I gotta set a new record, I would of had one (1:15 last check) but I fell out of the loop for no reason at all and wasted time.


Yep, in DC the end of Green Forest is slower than in the GC, and what you said about the loop, this happens everytime on DC when you try to do the entire loop in ball form. Paragod, if the springs you were saying is that  which stay right after the second checkpoint, I`m sure I can hit them possibly with a high 40 sec or low 41, `cause in this run(I couldn`t figure out) I did a really very fast decend after the check, which made me save a lot of time, and I wasn`t in my best run when I did this, I hope I can do this again.

Edit: Hahahaha, Jawzun kicked me off the 1st position
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 08:51:18 AM by Brian_pso »
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 12:51:51 PM »
oh.. just (another) stupid glitch then if he does fall every time, the game has enough of those as is. I usually just skip the loop by spindash jumping from the checkpoint, which is maybe faster? If you say 40/41 springs are possible I will take your word for it. For me getting 42.6 feels perfect, though it is easily possible that you are better than me.

yeah.. jawzun is very good, a whole lot better than me when he wants to be. (proven by emerald coast & everything else in SA1)

after the first spring of the ascent (at about 56 seconds) do you do a light dash to hit the second spring a lot faster? I learned that from watching jawzun's old 1:33 run, it saves a decent amount of time.

do not be discouraged, you can beat him! he may beat you back... but then you beat him back! and that..is how records (usually) become very strong :P (duh) I will sit this one out, I am not very good at playing with DC controls so I doubt I would sub 1:30 anyway.

edit: what about mission 5, would this not work there as well for an easy new record? I almost forgot about M5
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 12:59:43 PM by Paragod »

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2008, 02:29:22 PM »
oh.. just (another) stupid glitch then if he does fall every time, the game has enough of those as is. I usually just skip the loop by spindash jumping from the checkpoint, which is maybe faster? If you say 40/41 springs are possible I will take your word for it. For me getting 42.6 feels perfect, though it is easily possible that you are better than me.

yeah.. jawzun is very good, a whole lot better than me when he wants to be. (proven by emerald coast & everything else in SA1)

after the first spring of the ascent (at about 56 seconds) do you do a light dash to hit the second spring a lot faster? I learned that from watching jawzun's old 1:33 run, it saves a decent amount of time.

do not be discouraged, you can beat him! he may beat you back... but then you beat him back! and that..is how records (usually) become very strong :P (duh) I will sit this one out, I am not very good at playing with DC controls so I doubt I would sub 1:30 anyway.

edit: what about mission 5, would this not work there as well for an easy new record? I almost forgot about M5
Hahaha, thanks dude, yep, his time is totally beatable(for now), hey! I could reach the first spring of the sequence in 55 sec today and get to the last check at 1:10:xx(but I was in my last life and died)!!! I'm taping every single try. I didn't noticed the light dash you talked about, great! Another way to save time! Spindashing to the end of the loop save about 0.2-0.3 sec. I'm dreaming with a 1:25 someday, i think it's possible with a very close to perfect run, exploring all time savers of the stage. And I was thinking about M5 too, I'll test it today when I get to home. If I beat his time make sure I'll have a video. Try it too Paragod, I'm only a newcomer, it's my first two months here, if I can, I'm sure you can too. Ok, 1:25 is the target, I'll go for it, or the closest to it. Get ready men!!! Sucess to us all o/
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 05:05:15 PM »
jawzun's already way ahead of us in playing M5 :P

glad to of helped out with the light dash trick, I figure you'd of already known about it but I posted it anyway and turns out you had no idea, so getting your record back is that much easier! 1:25 is good but not quite dreaming, it can happen in reality!

I just got 1:29.7, sub 1:30! I might lose time at the end cause I had a 1:10 last check, and I did not restart at any checkpoints in the stage. a lot lower is possible but I am never expecting so many things to go right, so I am happy with this time. I COULD go lower, but just getting a completion better than my old record was very frustrating cause NOTHING was going right!

but who knows maybe I will end up with something way better, in the past i've many times played something and and settled for an okay time cause I could not stand playing the level at the time only to come back later and do much better.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 05:32:44 PM by Paragod »

Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 06:37:44 PM »
Woa!!! If you haven't said about the light dash I would lose pretty good seconds! This will help me a lot, thanx again. Dude, if you could get a 1:10 last checkpoint, you can easily get a low 1:27, it's serious, depending on your finish of course.

Yeah, xD, Jawzun don't lose time, but if I can be between the top five, it's a victory for a rookie. After max out my time in Green Forest I'll aim for Metal Harbor(my current time is 1:18:49).

Do you have any record videos that aren't here in the TSC? I only have a few from here, but many records don't have videos here, including the yours. o/

Edit: Watch out my mission 3 time, I'll aim for it later. o/
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 06:45:03 PM by Brian_pso »
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

Vote for PHILLIP BANKS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vg7ZAaR7AU

Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2008, 06:09:49 PM »
Woa!!! If you haven't said about the light dash I would lose pretty good seconds! This will help me a lot, thanx again. Dude, if you could get a 1:10 last checkpoint, you can easily get a low 1:27, it's serious, depending on your finish of course.

Yeah, xD, Jawzun don't lose time, but if I can be between the top five, it's a victory for a rookie. After max out my time in Green Forest I'll aim for Metal Harbor(my current time is 1:18:49).

Do you have any record videos that aren't here in the TSC? I only have a few from here, but many records don't have videos here, including the yours. o/

Edit: Watch out my mission 3 time, I'll aim for it later. o/


you are very welcome, but really you should thank jawzun. If not for his video i'd of never thought of doing it, funny how sometimes something so simple and obvious can elude you like that.

I did kinda forget you are quite new here and I am kinda commanding you to take down the great jawzun already, sorry about that :P you are doing very well for a new comer, I hope you enjoy the rest of the levels enough to do well on them, cause I like your potential. Maybe me you and jawzun(and Dss if he still plays?) can dominate all the times! or  at least sonic and shadow ones? hehe

good luck on mission 3, psyknux nearly beat me today! I tried for 52 yesterday and could not even sub 54, I guess I gotta get good at the stage again. good luck with the harbor too, you are already quite good at the stage. gonna aim for some records?

I do have pretty much all my times on video in some form, which would you like to see?

by the way, great job on the green forest tie! I was wondering when you would submit a better time. ties are cool, but I am sure it will be broken in a day or two, since you still seem to want 1:25.

Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2008, 06:27:56 PM »
never mind what I said about the tie... you beat him! for now :P

Offline Azure

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2008, 07:36:27 PM »
Man do I wish I had this game.

Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2008, 11:33:30 PM »
Hehehe,, you`re right, Jawzun helped us a lot, in this run of 1:26 I didn`t used his trick, `cause I forget it xD!!!!! Could be much better. Ha! I did it!!! I beat the m3 time!!! It`s taped! I could hit the set of springs at 41 sec as I said I could do. I`ll upload the video in the next week ok?

I really want to see all of your Sonic & Shadow videos, from all missions, but if you can`t upload them I`ll be pleased if I could see the vids from Pyramid Cave, Radical Highway, Final Rush, and the M2 of Metal Harbor. Thanx for the suport ^_^ see ya o/
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2008, 11:37:22 PM »
Man do I wish I had this game.

Dude, why don`t you try it in an emulator? Of dreamcast, `cause in the gamecube emulator the game FPS is far from perfection. Try to get the ISO and play in the emulator. o/
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

Vote for PHILLIP BANKS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vg7ZAaR7AU

Offline Bilan

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2008, 08:45:54 AM »
Dreamcast emulators are not allowed for competition purposes on this site at the moment.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2008, 12:19:16 PM »
Dreamcast emulators are not allowed for competition purposes on this site at the moment.

According to the rules: "Unofficial emulators that do not replicate correctly the original gameplay are not allowed. This currently spans DS, Dreamcast and any newer non portable consoles, and more." OK, but the "nulldc" (Dreamcast Emulator) emulates the game perfectly, this mean it`s according to the rules. Of course, if the fps is low, this give to the player an advantage, and invalidates any submission, but if the fps is normal, any time of SA2 made in the "nulldc" emulator is completely legit.
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

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Offline Azure

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2008, 12:27:27 PM »
Dreamcast emulators are not allowed for competition purposes on this site at the moment.

According to the rules: "Unofficial emulators that do not replicate correctly the original gameplay are not allowed. This currently spans DS, Dreamcast and any newer non portable consoles, and more." OK, but the "nulldc" (Dreamcast Emulator) emulates the game perfectly, this mean it`s according to the rules. Of course, if the fps is low, this give to the player an advantage, and invalidates any submission, but if the fps is normal, any time of SA2 made in the "nulldc" emulator is completely legit.

If this is true, do you have a link where I can download it from? I don't usually have a lot of time to spend scouring the internet, especially since said internet is dial-up.

But low fps, that would give a disadvantage right? So correct me if I'm wrong, but Brian_pso is right.

Also, in games like SA(DX) for the PC where I have a crappy video card (that's why I do Time Attacks only on GC), the frame rate must be set to the lowest setting for it to function at full speed. I don't have the PC version anymore, and haven't submitted any good stats with it, but they'd be legit if I did, right?

So don't the same principals apply with emulators, except the frame rate problems are for different reasons?

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2008, 12:53:38 PM »
Here`s the link: http://snesorama.us/board/showpost.php?p=218499&postcount=1 there is everything you need to know, it`s a gdi iso, this mean it`s the complete game, not a pirated copy(japanese voices, lol).

I think I`m right about the emulator question, `cause if the gameplay is the same in the emulator I see no reason to forbid his use. Of course if you submit a time made in this emulator, print screens aren`t enought to prove the legitimacy of your submission, `cause the fps question, only videos are enought to do this. Hope to have helped o/
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

Vote for PHILLIP BANKS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vg7ZAaR7AU

Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2008, 05:24:47 PM »
Hehehe,, you`re right, Jawzun helped us a lot, in this run of 1:26 I didn`t used his trick, `cause I forget it xD!!!!! Could be much better. Ha! I did it!!! I beat the m3 time!!! It`s taped! I could hit the set of springs at 41 sec as I said I could do. I`ll upload the video in the next week ok?

I really want to see all of your Sonic & Shadow videos, from all missions, but if you can`t upload them I`ll be pleased if I could see the vids from Pyramid Cave, Radical Highway, Final Rush, and the M2 of Metal Harbor. Thanx for the suport ^_^ see ya o/

sub 1:25 and 52.47 huh?! great job! those have to be close to max. you really dominated your M1 goal and got a great time. For M3 I thought 52 would barely be possible(I wanted 52.80) but you blew that away as well. maybe you have a better way of getting to the chao, I really have no idea what the fastest way is so maybe I do it right and maybe I do not. I will be patiently waiting for some videos! as for mine, well, I will see what I have on tape to upload for you.

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2008, 06:13:08 PM »
sub 1:25 and 52.47 huh?! great job! those have to be close to max. you really dominated your M1 goal and got a great time. For M3 I thought 52 would barely be possible(I wanted 52.80) but you blew that away as well. maybe you have a better way of getting to the chao, I really have no idea what the fastest way is so maybe I do it right and maybe I do not. I will be patiently waiting for some videos! as for mine, well, I will see what I have on tape to upload for you.

Thanx dude, I`m basing my run in the yoshifan`s video of 1:34. My m2 time isn`t that good, I don`t know why, maybe if you have the vid of this mission I`ll figure out, but I think the problem is in the minimal details of my run, I`ll try it again later, but I`ll leave the m1 time tilll someone beat it. And about my vids, I`ll try to upload them this week, the m1, m2 and m3 times.

Ha!!! I told you I would do this! In my m3(52.47) I hitted the set of springs at 41.55!!! For now it`s the fastest I could do, but if I hit the springs at this time again make sure I`ll beat this time. Thanks for your effort to upload the vids, see ya o/
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Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2008, 07:07:30 PM »
my best of 42.5 must be pretty accurate after all then, because I think that is what I had for 53.32

for mission 2 and 35.00, what I do is lightdash the first set of rings after you land, then do a spindash jump while collecting the next set of rings and aim my jump to the left and lightdash that huge chain of rings, then spindash into the loop(you must hit atleast 2 boost pads or you will go slower than normal) I jump before hitting the ramp at the end of the loop and aim that jump at the next ramp, hitting the check at 15 I believe I lightdash the set of rings by this check and then spindash to the spring. from here just spindash twice as you do in any other mission, hitting the spring. Spindash down the slope getting most of the rings (I believe you need atlwast 65, maybe 67) then jump out of the loop as you do in M1 to skip the rest of the loop and the ramp.

From here I found a new strategy which got me such a great time(The second-best time was 37.2 when I got 35.00) once you land in the robot area, lightdash the rings and you will kind of zig-zagas you lightdash, and if all goes well you will automatically hit the boost pad, and from there if you time it just right you can instantly jump+homing attack from the boost pads which will let you hit the 2 ring boxes without wasting ANY time, and should easily get you a 35, and maybe a great new record of 34 if you make a nice flawless execution. I got tired of playing and just settled with 35 flat, which is still a great record by my standards.. but it can be beaten!

This does not work every time, but I had fairly good consistency when I did it, maybe 50%.

I DID tape 35.00, but I searched my tapes and could not find it, but this "guide" I just made should be good enough.. if you don not understand it exactly I can always make a slow run showing just the strategies I am talking about.

Offline Brian

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Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2008, 08:39:11 PM »
Oh, thanx, I understood everything, my strategy was the same of the vid of 40 sec, I`ll try it later, if you find some vids and upload them will be great!!! With vids we can use the technique called "sharingan" and improve our time a lot xD.

Paragod, what`s your opinion about the discussion of the emulator? If the nulldc emulator, reproduces perfectly the gameplay, his use have to be allowed? Unless the game runs with low fps, but to prove the legitimacy of some times the player must have a video, or a print screen with the current fps being showed in the image. What do you think?
My SA2 patents: Instant Spindash, Green Forest's invisible floor, Green Forest's spring technique, Radical Highway's flying homing attack, Gravity Control, Flying Scope   <- NEW

Vote for PHILLIP BANKS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vg7ZAaR7AU

Offline X-5

Re: Attention Brian_pso
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2008, 08:54:24 PM »
you got 37 with that old strategy??... something tells me you will smash my time easily. that would be my last green forest record!

video sharing does help everyone out tons, even if someone has a slower time they may do something slightly differently that saves time, I am sure we could learn something off each other in green forest.

For emulators.. well I do know that you are allowed to use an emulator for the 2D sonic games(they emulate perfectly) you are even allowed to use save states to reload a level over and over again, as long as you do not save in the middle of the level(which is obviously cheating)

So.. if SA2 can really emulate perfectly on 60 FPS..going by the rules there should be no reason a time cannot be obtained with an emulator. I doubt you would want to though, you'd never set records cause the controls would be useless compared to the real console, even with a good PC controller.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2008, 09:49:44 PM by Paragod »

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