Integrity of Future Competition


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Offline Magnezone

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Integrity of Future Competition
« on: January 18, 2008, 11:02:33 PM »
I am worried about this. And no; this isn't about about whether or not a future Sonic the Hedgehog game is going to be good or not. This is about whether the competition in a future Sonic the Hedgehog game is going to be good or not.

Now what exactly do I mean by this? Well allow me to share a little bit of my experience with competing in games. When I first came to the site, I was only interested in one game - Sonic Rush. That is the game that had pretty much built me up to be the competitor that I am now, thanks to various tussles with Ben and Crowbar and SDM. However, the thing that was the most exciting about competing in Sonic Rush in general was that every record you were able to gain was important. You could take the Dead Line 1 Time and it'd be just as satisfactory as landing the Water Palace 2 Score.

Now of course, there was a minority within all of those charts - the Boss scores. They are easily maxed out and are pretty much "gimmie" records. They don't serve any purpose competition-wise except to increase your overall percentage. But it didn't matter; everyone was so busy trying to beat each other elsewhere that it didn't matter.

So then a year later I delved into SSR, and I'm going to say that the competition hasn't been as fun as Rush, but it's still in place. The thing that annoys me about competing in the game though is this - nobody is after the missions that matter (Mission 1's). Instead, people concentrate instead on trying to take one of the shorter records or go for maxing out a particular mission. The most fun competition I had was when I was going back-and-forth with Fadeddreams over Night Palace 1, but of course by my luck he gets banned for "testing the system" and then going to gamefaqs and saying that people can essentially cheat the system here and not get caught, but gets caught in the process of attempting trying to see if he could not get caught.

Now, before that, the Sonic 06 charts were put up. Thing is, nobody really cared about the making of them. Bosses, times, and missions were all clumped together, so when it came time to start competing there, the entire weight of the chart was all shifted to the missions. This was at a time when Very Hard mode was non-existant either, so to look at the chart and to think that all of the competition was weighted on the 66% of the chart that was missions, it was pretty depressing to see and try to compete in (20 second loading screens every 2 seconds for some missions hooray!). Then again.. it is Sonic 06.

But now let me talk about Sonic Rush Adventure.

The thing I liked seeing about the way the competition in this game sprung up is that in about 2-3 months, there were more people submitting stats in the game than every other game that came out after Sonic Riders. Now what annoyed the crap out of me even more is that nobody competes where it actually matters - where it's actually fun.

Let me put it this way. This is the history of the first level in the game for me, Plant Kingdom 1.

http://www.soniccenter.org/members/skylights/sonic_rush_adventure/times/plant_kingdom_1/sonic

This is my Hidden Island 1.

http://www.soniccenter.org/members/skylights/sonic_rush_adventure/times/hidden_island_1/sonic

I don't know what this tells you, but it tells me that people want the Hidden Island 1 record a whole lot more than the Plant Kingdom 1 record. Why? Probably because it's on a much easier scale in terms of level design. It's not as significant as one of the actual levels in terms of bragging weight... but it's a record that we allow people to compete for. And there are more of these than actual levels.

Now here's the other thing that annoys me about Sonic Rush Adventure competition. Look at this.

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_rush_adventure/scores

Over 80% of the chart can be maxed out. It's ridiculous. Basically, over time as people max out records, you could essentially gain 80%, possibly 90% of the score division just by doing as good as the game would let you do.

That isn't even touching this part.

http://www.soniccenter.org/rankings/sonic_rush_adventure/extra

There has been absolutely no competition here at all. There's been Thorn and I filling in our charts and a few minor skirmishes and RPG posting weird times that I continue to wonder if he subtracted the time he got at the end from the time that was given at the beginning so that it would seem like time was counting up instead of down, which is not how the charts there happen to work. But seriously, these seemed like a good idea at the start... it's just that nobody seems to care about them at all. Personally, I see it as personal 0-score-division material when I feel like it.

So now with those three points being made about Sonic Rush Adventure competition, it just seems to me like nobody cares about the fun competition anymore. Sure, there's an official site, but it sucks and only updates once a day and sometimes just shows me script instead of what I want, not to mention there's no chance of me knowing who the heck Cloud is if I want to find out how he went sub-30 on PK1. Perhaps the official site itself is also a contributor to the problem this game has, but it is certainly true that there is just too much useless competition going on in our Sonic Rush Adventure. It's like Cyberscore where we basically have divisions for everything the game can calculate for competition without concerns for what kind of competitive integrity it will happen to turn into.

Now what I am not saying is to delete half of the Rush Adventure charts. It'd be nice, but the damage is basically done and it just feels like there's nothing that can be done about the competitive integrity of that game. What I am saying is to take greater caution at what charts make up a games "competitive integrity" (if you don't mind me using that label a million times). Gimmie-records are nice but they should not be the basis of a games competition and as a result out-weigh all of the records that have a significant effect on who is the leader of a division. Why? It's not fun. It doesn't create a challenge for anyone except for the person that's trying to tie the record, and when 50% of the game is about tying someone else's record, well, it just doesn't feel like you're doing anything special by competing in it. It's like a bird who's wings are clipped. It's boring.

Offline Waxwings

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2008, 11:05:42 PM »
I agree, really. I've been worried about SRA for a while now.

Offline Rolken

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2008, 11:10:16 PM »
This is very true. It's why we never put up all the characters in Sonic R, why I never put up the mission charts for Riders, and had I been more intent on reviewing SRA I would've cut them there in the end as well.

That said, I don't think it's too late to take them out. We have made decisions to revamp competition in ways that impacted far more people before, and when I raised the notion in chat I don't recall any serious objection from the few people who'd bothered with the SRA missions.

I think the way game additions should proceed in the future is by starting with a set of "core" competition rankings, and if there's a high level of competition there then we can consider moving on to other rankings. It's diluting the competition way too much to open games with hundreds of charts.
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Offline F-Man

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2008, 12:44:04 AM »
I think in the long run those gimmie records could become potentially harder, and in those times you'd thank having more options of what to compete in a game when one is starting to bore you.

Offline Crowbar

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2008, 12:52:56 AM »
Tied Rush boss scores do not get harder, ever. Sure, 10 second long Hidden Islands do, but that's still only up to a point, and they're just plain boring. I'd say you'll get bored of those before you get bored of the main levels.

Besides, he's not actually suggesting cutting them all out, just re-weighting things significantly in favour of the "real" levels (I think).

It's not like I'm able to compete in SRA (sadly) but I fully agree with what SL is saying.

Offline Magnezone

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2008, 01:06:23 AM »
^

Also, to clarify what I am saying in this topic. When the time comes to add a new Sonic game to the rankings, we need to be much more careful than we are right now as to what we have people compete in. For the sake of the game's competition, we need to add charts that will actually be competitive, instead of adding charts just for the sake of having more potential records. Not only does it create false competition that won't mean anything in the long run and affect anyone else, or subvert attention from the records that are worth bragging about to the ones that are much simpler and are maxed out, it's just not fun.

Offline F-Man

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2008, 01:11:47 AM »
But what if you try to force yourself to get the very very best you can in a cheap level. Surely that'd make it more interesting and take longer for someone to beat you! Iono, but for any game I really like, I'd find it very sad not being able to compete everywhere.

As for levels that are just easy ties, it would seem pretty awkward to put some bosses for example, and not others. I don't see why it shouldn't be ok to require those stats for the sake of the points it gives.

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2008, 01:18:43 AM »
I think in SRA's case...its a lot more than just some

still, aren't these findings usually done through competition itself?  so what like, practice charts or just more research before making the charts?  people already complain when a game isn't put up right away and you see how fast people come up with the charts themselves.
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Offline Ring Rush

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2008, 01:22:00 AM »
If you claim ties are so easy to match, (ps, contrary to popular belief, just because there is a tie doesn't mean the level is easy. Also see, SA2 rings, S3&K rings, etc.), then shouldn't everyone have them? This means that in the end, these charts add very little as all the serious competitors have maxed them.

I also agree with F-Man, we should have the freedom to submit to what we want. I know, for instance, SSR ring chains are undercompeted. If they were removed simply because they take weight away from the 'more important things', I would be very annoyed. That is just unfairly taking weight from one person and giving it to the other, for no real good reason as they are both legitimate competitors.

Also, there is nothing you can do to stop people from competing on the shorter levels (or the first level of a game for that matter). It is always going to happen. People can choose what they want to spend time in, and you shouldn't be able to dictate what is the 'right' way to go.
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Offline GerbilSoft

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2008, 01:26:13 AM »
If you claim ties are so easy to match, (ps, contrary to popular belief, just because there is a tie doesn't mean the level is easy. Also see, SA2 rings, S3&K rings, etc.), then shouldn't everyone have them? This means that in the end, these charts add very little as all the serious competitors have maxed them.
I think this proves that tied records aren't that easy to get. <_<

Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2008, 01:35:28 AM »
also I remember I was the one trying to get more people into the Mission 1's of SSR when I was competing, then when I fell off the wagon...then everyone started doing them >_>

also a conclusion drawn from this...n00bs don't like long levels *shot*
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Offline Magnezone

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2008, 02:31:20 AM »
But what if you try to force yourself to get the very very best you can in a cheap level. Surely that'd make it more interesting and take longer for someone to beat you! Iono, but for any game I really like, I'd find it very sad not being able to compete everywhere.

As for levels that are just easy ties, it would seem pretty awkward to put some bosses for example, and not others. I don't see why it shouldn't be ok to require those stats for the sake of the points it gives.

Well perhaps my thing about time-attacking contributes to my annoyance. I have a tendency to hold back from perfection in order to encourage others to do better and to help make more competition, and possibly learn a thing or two in the process, from Crow/SDM in Rush and Stefan/sonicandamy in SSR for example. Not only that, but if I do try my best on a silly level like Hidden Island 1, there is so going to be that random guy that comes out of nowhere and will not quit until he has beaten your record by like 0:00:01 (ChrisB? phewe? Super_Smasher? I could go on). I have strictly tails-headed luck with these kinds of things. I could also say that I don't like when these developed pro players just smash the records immediately like the case of SDM and Blizzard Peaks 2, but that's another story.

When it comes to competing everywhere, I do understand that people should be able to have as many options as possible and I agree. The thing is, I am endorsing people bludgeoning other people over a record and having the process repeat a bazillion times, and opposing overall competition in which you don't actually compete; you just tie or beat someone else's record once, ever. It will never change. Doing something like that devalues the competitive integrity of a game and raises the Cyberscore-ish essence and in SRA's case, minoritizes the TSC-ish essence in where we compete.

Quote
If you claim ties are so easy to match, (ps, contrary to popular belief, just because there is a tie doesn't mean the level is easy. Also see, SA2 rings, S3&K rings, etc.), then shouldn't everyone have them? This means that in the end, these charts add very little as all the serious competitors have maxed them.

I also agree with F-Man, we should have the freedom to submit to what we want. I know, for instance, SSR ring chains are undercompeted. If they were removed simply because they take weight away from the 'more important things', I would be very annoyed. That is just unfairly taking weight from one person and giving it to the other, for no real good reason as they are both legitimate competitors.

Also, there is nothing you can do to stop people from competing on the shorter levels (or the first level of a game for that matter). It is always going to happen. People can choose what they want to spend time in, and you shouldn't be able to dictate what is the 'right' way to go.
Everyone should indeed have them. Of all people to max out all of them I did not expect it would be you, Ring Rush, seeing as you seem to believe that 2D games are nothing in the face of 3D games. In fact, you getting a full perfect chart just proves my point that everyone can get them. Dimps quite clearly designed the scores in this game so that anyone can max out every score, wheras I think you would find that it is quite different in the original (except for bosses, of course).

Also I would not say that Ring Chains are an unimportant part of competing in Sonic and the Secret Rings as they can actually change somewhat drastically. While it is true that you have a 0-point leadership there, I know you haven't maxed out every record there, which is why I didn't rant about it earlier. Ring Chains don't fall under the category of "people only compete here and nowhere else" or "a drastically large, not-as-fun-as-other-records part of competing in the game" or a combination of the two as it is in SRA. SA2 rings and S3K rings don't fall in there either, which leads me to somewhat believe that you don't completely understand what I'm talking about.

Quote
I think this proves that tied records aren't that easy to get. <_<
I think this tells a different story, one that is about people being too lazy to finish :(

Offline P.P.A.

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2008, 03:48:06 AM »
Ah, now I understand why Rolken never put up character charts for Sonic R.
Also since I have nothing to contribute since I don''t play those games, do I at least get a cookie for reading the whole first post? >_>
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Offline Ben

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2008, 06:29:43 AM »
Ideally, players would be encouraged to submit all of their stats, and not just their best ones. It's a problem which plagues Cyberscore, and is starting to affect TSC quite a bit with the newer games. I've noticed a lot of people who will only submit a stat if it is highly ranked, this really sucks for competition.

Sonic Rush has a relatively strong competition, but look at SDM who is currently ranked 2nd. He is missing quite a few stats. Is it because he genuinely doesn't have scores for them? I doubt it very much, he just doesn't think they are good enough to submit.

It doesn't really say much for competition, if even 2nd place hasn't bothered submitting all their stats on a game which doesn't have a huge amount of charts. Maybe a points bonus should be awarded to a full set of stats for a catagory, to encourage more competition?

Offline Selphos

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 08:22:44 PM »
I know I'm necromancing the thread, shut the hell up.
However, this is still an issue.

I like to think of myself as the "basis" for being good at something on TSC. I mean, if some guy with three usable fingers and a small attention span can do something on a game, surely some other "normal" guy could too. I use this argument constantly when talking about S3D rings and such, because it's just simple enough. By this same point I find it pathetic when people say "i can never beat sondow :("

So yeah, I think this point may need to be re-met. If I'm just pointlessly necroing a dead topic with no use, sue me. I had good intentions.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2008, 07:59:06 PM »
Ah, now I understand why Rolken never put up character charts for Sonic R.

Now I understand why Rolken never put up mission charts for Sonic Riders.

Funny how noone ever spoke to me about it when I was the most keen on seeing it going up. But that doesn't surprise me anymore.
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Offline Thorn

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2008, 08:05:19 PM »
Funny how noone ever spoke to me about it when I was the most keen on seeing it going up. But that doesn't surprise me anymore.

You'd get talked to more if you'd try communicating with people instead of just leaving snide comments on the forums related to charts that don't exist yet or never will. We have a chatroom: if you want conversation, use it.

Also, you're not the only one who likes seeing charts added to TSC for the sake of more submissions. I think with ~3000 stats submitted, that's really my territory to bitch about. :P
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2008, 08:12:34 PM »
I meant I was the most keen. I really wanted to see Riders go up since eggFL still was champ and I was good at the Missions and I thought it'd definitely help improve my rank.

As for chat, there's only one person who knows this but I was never allowed to go back there again for reasons I can't discuss. That same person is the only one who knows the real reason why I couldn't get SatSR.

Again, it's beyond my control. And I don't recall entering a chatroom being a requirement. Look after everything I've gone through, I'm lucky to even still be allowed to go on TSC anymore, and for that, I'm happy.
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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2008, 07:42:08 AM »
TAILS SKYPATROL, SONIC GAME WORLD AND SONIC PINBALL PARTY CHARTS!
The latter of which I actually support. SPP rocks ok. :(
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Offline EngiNerd

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2008, 08:54:30 AM »
YAY SKY PATROL!!!!
<_<
What?  That was actually a pretty good game, if not too short and not really a Sonic game.  It was pretty cool.
Im in ur TSCz, climin ur chartz!
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2008, 11:31:41 AM »
And once again, ks8 hijacks a serious topic to whine about his failures and ignores Thorn's attempts to show him sense.
I'm beginning to get a bit tired of this.
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Offline DsSaster

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2008, 01:49:53 PM »
I know I'm necromancing the thread, shut the hell up.
However, this is still an issue.

I like to think of myself as the "basis" for being good at something on TSC. I mean, if some guy with three usable fingers and a small attention span can do something on a game, surely some other "normal" guy could too. I use this argument constantly when talking about S3D rings and such, because it's just simple enough. By this same point I find it pathetic when people say "i can never beat sondow :("

So yeah, I think this point may need to be re-met. If I'm just pointlessly necroing a dead topic with no use, sue me. I had good intentions.

itt thread necromancy is a sin. >_______>
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2008, 12:40:31 AM »
You're not funny.

Stef edit:

You're not authoritative.

I'm sorry, pidgey, but I am starting to get somewhat annoyed at your constant putting down of others as if you were the pillar of exceptional judgment.

lay off k? :D
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 09:38:05 AM by Stefan »
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Offline Mo

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2008, 01:04:17 AM »
Will get a new Secret Rings disk in the summer to add some more competition to this site.
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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2008, 06:29:58 AM »
ITT one month later.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2008, 10:44:55 AM »


When I was
Did you not think I had a mind?

Offline F-Man

Re: Integrity of Future Competition
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2008, 01:45:43 PM »
Well how about we all agree that Rolken changed his mind? :)

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