Tournaments


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Offline yse

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Tournaments
« on: April 30, 2007, 03:53:47 AM »
UPDATE: Ideas will be coming into this topic more coherently and more often. Watch this space!

With subsites being established and more on the way the time is right to start this thing running.

What I bring to the table:
A semi-regular tournament schedule based on fair and equitable single player competition.

What I'll need:
* Volunteers from each existing subsite to run tournaments in their area of expertise (I'm obviously TSC's representative in this regard, but I might also do tournaments on other games at times) EDIT: Currently reconsidering. I say there should be Sonic and Megaman leagues but it might make things interesting down the track if people want to compete in multiple leagues.
* An upload interface where players can upload their runs for me to review and later display (something like microstorage)
* A PayPal account if we decide to go down that road

Tournament Format
Still a few ideas on the table. The cornerstone of it is this: leagues of 16 players (or some other round number) who play against each other every week for bragging rights. Points of contention:
* Whether to play one, or several, matches in a week
* Whether to use one or multiple challenges in the same round
* Whether to use one or multiple categories of challenges in the same round
* Whether to rank players head-to-head or against everyone in the league (ties in with the last two)
* Bonus points for miscellaneous tourneys (such as the Toulouse one we're running now!)

Thoughts would be appreciated on this. I have a vision in my head but it is not translating too well heh.

---

Also administration will be far more competent than Sonic Olympics organisation. >_>
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 10:41:17 AM by mike89 »

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Offline sonicam

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 01:17:06 PM »
For some reason, I don't see this actually going to be implemented, especially if it's Sonic based. Everyone has their areas of expertise and to have a SA2B, S2, STT, SR, etc tournament would always go in the directions of the top competitors of that game, virtually giving no chance to anyone else wanting to have a fair competition. I mean seriously, me vs. SS in SA2B, no chance in hell. me vs. mike, S2, no chance in hell. Or to exclude me, SJ (I guess anyone fits here >_>) vs. Sprint S2GG, no way in hell. Unless you like plan to make it where the standings are pretty identical, like SJ vs. eredani, Heroes.
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Offline X-5

Re: Tournaments
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 02:00:43 PM »
isnt that the point of?  a competition, the best player wins? :s seems fair atleast, if someones good at something obviously they had to work hard to get there so they deseerve it, plus it doesnt mean theyll automatically win, everyone screws up.

I cant see how its unfair that other people dont have a chance, its their fault for not practicing.

but um ill sign up if this is a tournament wherer you go for fast times in the nd/or do certain challenges as long as you include games im familiar with like sonic 1 or SADX/2b

Offline Stefan

Re: Tournaments
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2007, 08:35:18 AM »
Sonicam's just saying there is no point. The tournament winners will probably just be those who are already champs. it's not proving anything, just doubling over on people's championships.

Offline stanski

Re: Tournaments
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 04:23:31 AM »
If we have a sonic 2 single segment tournament and anyone beats me, i'll give them a cookie.


Seriously.

Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 09:22:02 AM »
It appears sonicam has made a couple of assumptions which are not correct and would, indeed, be detrimental to the concept.

Firstly, while I like Rolken's tournament idea and want to steal ideas from it, I will not strictly limit myself to Sonic games. The addition of Megaman is a perfect opportunity to start using those, as well as various other games that have potential.

Second, and I feel this is important, I intend to run competitions exclusively using members outside of TSC. I will run intra-TSC tournaments from time to time if people feel like competing, but the centrepiece of my idea is recruiting outsiders to have a bit of fun on a weekend.

Oh and I promise I will not run tournaments whereupon multiple sites supply a team, with crappy rules and a T-shirt as the prize. >___>

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Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 11:50:15 AM »
...so genus' wasn't successful and this one will be?
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Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 07:20:31 AM »
Okay help me out here.

I'm going to run a test of the current format and just see how well it works. I'm going to need 8 volunteers. Your job will be to take part in all the rounds of the tournament and determine which ones work the best for long-term competitive value.

I'm going to run events in four different ways:

1. Head to head: A category ("Yellow in Yellow", to quote Rolken) will be given to the players in advance. Four challenges within that category will be created and the two players in a head-to-head match will agree on one of them (ideally giving preferences in case everyone wants the same challenge). They contact me (or drop me a PM if I'm not around) and when all eight players have a challenge, the challenge begins. At the end of the week the player with the best submission for each challenge wins an arbitrary amount of points.

2. Head to head: Four categories will be given to the players in advance. The two players in any given head-to-head match will agree on one category, and contact me as to their preferences. Once they have all made their selections, the challenges within those categories are revealed. At the end of the week the player with the best submission for each challenge wins an arbitrary amount of points.

3/4. Free-for-all: A category will be chosen in advance. One challenge within that category will be created, and all eight players compete on this challenge. Much like the SA2B challenges of old, these can be scored two different ways:
* Relative to the other players, or
* Relative to preset targets.
In either case, the scores would scale down such that S = 10, A = 6, B = 4, C = 2, D = 1, E = 0 or something similar.

I'd like to start this next weekend. I'll need someone to help me judge the videos (RPG I'm looking at you), at least until September 2 when I'll get my own computer and be able to do it all myself.

Current competitors: (bold for confirmed)
RPG
SJ
SBW
Thorn
yoshifan
Achlys
Aitamen
genus
Upthorn
(yes, that is nine!)
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 02:08:21 AM by yse »

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Offline Bilan

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2007, 09:24:03 AM »
Note: I wont be here the last week of August, but sure, Im game
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Offline Shadow Jacky

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2007, 12:50:14 AM »
unless I get a job soon, I have nothing to do

so count me in.
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Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2007, 11:11:15 PM »
Okay mike's way wins so I guess I'll volunteer.

I'd probably lose hard because I'd do everything late at night but what the hell.
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Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2007, 02:11:44 AM »
Okay I have a slight problem. I have nine willing players.

Upth, genus and RPG have all been willing to help me out with ideas, but obviously having them provide ideas and also compete is rather detrimental to the concept of being completely transparent.

I'll probably get RPG to help me out as he did say he'd miss a week which, the way the tournament is structured, I just can't allow. However if he's serious on competing genus/Upth will remain on standby.

New topic being created in this forum specifically for discussing this tournament. This will remain open to plan future tourneys.

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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2007, 02:33:45 AM »
Quote from: Mike
Oh and I promise I will not run tournaments whereupon multiple sites supply a team, with crappy rules and a T-shirt as the prize. >___>

I had to reread that for a minute, because I thought it referred to my tournament at first.

Anyways, it could work well if you strive to catch players off guard, outside of their areas of expertise. Like what I tried to do for my tournament. It could be possible to have challengers give ideas for future challenges, and bar them from competing in their own. It could also be possible to, say, have misleading category names (the category for a metroid challenge could be called, say, 'Gun star', suspiciously like 'Gun Star Superheroes).

Don't rule out the potential for disruptive game tactics.

I'll post more tomorrow. Right now, I'm going to bed because I'm tired.


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Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2007, 11:39:51 PM »
Okay this post is going to be fairly epic and involve the future of the tournament structure.

Rolken has already said he'll make a tournament subsite for future tourneys so the functionality of updates and submissions will be easier (and hopefully I won't have to bug everyone for submissions >_>).

However, thanks to the awesome community we are, between all the competitors in the first tournament I've had about 15 ideas submitted to me for improvements.

I'll go through them all in turn.

1. <Upth> maybe people should be partnered based on challenge preference
We had a bit of an issue in the first round because nobody really wanted the first challenge. This was mainly an issue because the challenges were readily available, but we'll have a discussion later over whether categories or challenges should be picked.

2. <Tails> perhaps...have the preliminary challenge "rank" the players, and in order of rank, players can bid a handicap on a given challenge, and whoever bids highest gets it, such as "I'll bid on challenge #3 with enough confidence that I can win with a 7-second handicap"
I really like this idea. Perhaps a bit complicated for the target market; that being other Sonic sites (>_>)... worth consideration though.

3. <Thorn> have four challenges, and the pairings rotate through them
An extension of #1, this would have the advantage of not waiting on people to pick challenges, but the disadvantage that you'd know three challenges in advance.

4. Some sort of screening process. See SM's idea maybe?
This and the next one came up when Aitamen dropped out at the start, that there should be some process for determining who is actually serious about the tournament. Part of it will be assisted by setting up a league system with eight players in each league, and a promotion and relegation system.

5. How to handle dropouts?
More of a problem than someone dropping out at the start of a tournament, is if someone drops out in the middle. In a relegation/promotion system it becomes particularly hard to replace a dropout without seriously affecting the competition, so would we just be able to let the tournament continue with just seven players?

6. Players may compete for free, but if they want to win a prize they have to pay (say, $5)
I'm not giving this up! In the long term money may change hands over this, and I think this is the best way to entice people to part with their money but not be forced into it.

7. <eredani> yse: Emukon have gg/sms recording
Emukon, as I have since found out, is the new name for eSMS which was used during the first Sonic Olympics, so we know it works pretty well. The question is mainly, do we want to extend into Game Gear games? I don't see why not, the more material the better as far as I'm concerned.

8. Multiple submissions per round next time - grade only the latest submission
This was brought up with me multiple times during the tournament. To be fair limiting to a single submission per player was a bad decision on my part, but that can be expected since the idea came from the Sonic Olympics >_>

9. Making head to head challenges comparable to free for all challenges: should a head to head win be worth 6, 8, or 10?
Something I grappled with for a while before posting the first round results. For the moment I made it 6, but it occured to me that with the free for all scoring scheme in place, having wins worth 8 points make the point value of both head to head and free for all challenges exactly 32. Then there's the option of 10 points which seems a bit high, especially when two players can be very close and only one gets the points. There are other schemes in place which will come up in the next few ideas which aim to make things fairer, too.

10. <yoshifan> make a target time/ring count/whatever to beat to at least get, say, 2 points, otherwise people may not try at all after seeing their partner
This one came up after genus refused to compete against Thorn in the third round. I think it's worth implementing, but if someone has reasons against it I'd like to hear them too.

11. Team tournaments? Say with teams of four and only one player has to compete in any given round?
Of course this would need a larger player base, but it ties in more with Rolken's original tournament idea which was the basis for all this. Once there are enough, is this worthwhile?

12. Some bonus (maybe one point) for the first submission in a round?
This obviously only works if multiple submissions per round are allowed, but it should make things fun. It will, however, require that everyone submit the same way (through my email most likely) so that the time of submission can be easily compared.

13. Head to head format: Challenges or categories?
Do we want the challenges to be known to all competitors prior to selection, or leave them as categories?

14. Free for all format: Direct competition, or time targets?
Compete directly against each other for ranks, or achieve ranks based on the achievement of an arbitrary target?

So what do you think of all that? Make your opinions known on any or all points.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 11:59:53 PM by yse »

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Offline Waxwings

Re: Tournaments
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2007, 11:46:27 PM »
EPIC POST :OOO


But where exactly and how will we get some people to join? It's not like this is a center of the fandom (thank god >_>), and advertising on other sites might get a harsh response from moderators.

 

Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2007, 12:05:44 AM »
I'd say that all in all this tournament did not operate smoothly...however, the whole idea was to work out what would prove problematic with a test run. Therefore...success?

I felt like there was something of an issue in the time zone difference. Mike would be ending challenges with a good half-day remaining because in Australialand the deadline had passed. Maybe next time establish some sort of submission window fair to all players.

Another point of note was how drawing several challenges from a single game completely compromises the competition. If you noticed, the rankings follow the player chart of S3K to a point. I'd say this is a pretty clear indication that you drew too heavily from that game for challenges.

As just one more tidbit: offer challenges in which it is possible to accrue massive amounts of points for a good submission. If you do poorly in a challenge and fall behind, you really have no chance to catch up in a 4-challenge event.


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Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 11:52:09 AM »
Okay so here is my plan of attack with regards to recruitment.

Without overgeneralising at all srsly, here are the two potential groups I am reaching out towards:
1. Good players who will be able to make an impact in these tournaments. This limits us to places like Cyberscore and SDA and the Sonic playing population among these communities is quite low. Therefore the actual amount of interest here will be pretty small if any.
2. Sonic players. This means just about any Sonic site out there; TSS, SCD, Sonic Vegemite, you name it. I think only the first two would be a suitable base for which to focus recruitment attempts, but you never know. This plan, however, has the notable disadvantage to reaching out to just the type of people who probably wouldn't fit in too well at TSC to say the least.

So at the moment I am leaning towards #2 but this is subject to change. Opinions plz. (and don't forget the stuffs on the first page >_>)

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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 03:27:04 PM »
I'd say that our potential audience is either small or (mostly) irrelevant. If we go to recruit only 'serious' players, we're not going to find much, and the chances are if someone doesn't play competitively now they probably never will. Of the two, I would say target random (but coherent) somebodies on the internet and hope for a diamond in the rough. If a single player becomes a regular member as a result, then the tournaments have served their purpose. Otherwise we may as well take pictures of various stones we found in the outside world, because interest for the site in general is waning. We need new 'mainstay' members, and some that aren't total dipshits.

As for where to recruit...well, most people here are active in more than TSC, right? Suggesting the site to some of the members who make sense would do wonders for the tournament subsite, especially if we moved away from exclusively Sonic based stuff.

I also think SRA will be an interesting venue for recruitment, or at least a way to stir up some publicity. Tack on 'TSC' to your in-game name, and some players will start asking around, (obviously) awed by the speed and precision exhibited in a given match. And then if they're noobs they'll receive a poor reception and probably leave.


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Offline Combo

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2007, 10:12:40 PM »
What ever happend to that time atking sonic 1,2,3 through the whole game thing?
I still want to participate in it.
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Offline yse

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 10:21:20 PM »
Incidentally, Judgment, did you want to participate in the upcoming tourney? There's still time to sign up.

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Re: Tournaments
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 10:25:13 PM »
Incidentally, Judgment, did you want to participate in the upcoming tourney? There's still time to sign up.

Well I would like to but I would need to get Gens+ and the games(Using my new computer).
And when would it be?
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