Mario Center discussion


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Offline yse

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Mario Center discussion
« on: March 22, 2007, 04:17:17 AM »
First things first: This subsite will be strictly PLATFORMERS ONLY. Mario Kart has a well established community, and the sports games are not great candidates for competition.

Off the top of my head, there are 11 games available for competition under a Mario Center:

Super Mario Bros.
Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels (aka SMB2j)
Super Mario Bros. 3
Super Mario Land
Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins
Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3
Super Mario World
SMB:DX Challenge mode (is Beat the Boo competitive?)
Wario Land 3
Wario Land 4
New Super Mario Bros.

Each game is going to have its own rules issues. One common to all is going to be the fact that you can theoretically start any level in any game (except the first level) as any incarnation of Mario you desire. How to handle this (and worse, prove it) should be discussed here.

Another one specific to SMW and NSMB is the ability to carry an additional item between levels (and particularly for NSMB, you can select any item you want prior to entering a level). In both these games it is advantageous to have a certain incarnation of Mario at certain points in a level, which would permit switching of items. Fair game or not?

SMW and NSMB levels also have two exits in some levels. Track both, or just the fastest one?

Any other difficulties to competition which might arise should be discussed in here too before any charts actually go up.

EDIT: Notes on WL3/4:

WL3: Time Attack mode is only unlocked once you collect all 100 treasures. This would make competition comparable to something like, say, SSR, where it takes a lot of time to get to a competitive level. However the game is very convenient in saving your times so I don't think there's much of a case against it, considering the game is also over 7 years old.

WL4: Three divisions per level are necessary, one for Normal, Hard and S-Hard difficulties. Scores can be tracked as well as time from when the switch is hit, counting down a-la Gamma.

EDIT2: PPA informs me that WL1 does have a counter. Eleven now!
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 08:03:38 AM by mike89 »

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Offline Ring Rush

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2007, 12:33:44 PM »
What about CAing for SM64 or SMS? And there are red coin challenges and such like that for SMS that are timed, that can be tracked. Finally, IIRC the Wario games have timers, but I'll need to check on that.

Also, I say don't count exits as seperate worlds.

Edit: I just saw that SMS is on the established community list. Ignore that.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 12:41:39 PM by Ring Rush »
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Offline magnum12

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2007, 01:23:42 PM »
I'm guessing that TMC (Mario Center, I'm using TMMC) should use a time system similar to the SA:DX Gamma stages due to the way the clock works in most Mario games. I'd say we should track both exits in Mario World since getting the normal and secret exits in the fastest time would require different strategies and different routes. I know this sub site is for platformers, but I think Wario Ware has excellent potential for competition in the score division and should be relatively popular. It tracks several levels along with scores for specific micro games, giving it nearly as many divisions as SA:2B.
-Edit: I say allow the player to store any item and use of any form under the character equipment precedent since there's no form that can be regarded as "uber broken competition destroyers" in Mario games. I'll probably join these competitions, mostly for Mario World thanks to the Virtual Console.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 01:37:08 PM by magnum12 »
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Offline yse

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2007, 06:38:41 PM »
The only things that were brought up as breaking levels was stuff like starting with a cape in SMW and flying over the level. I think that might be borderline breaking.

The only Wario game I can think of with a timer is WL4, and then only for the second half of the stage. I'll consider it though.

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Offline magnum12

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2007, 07:41:25 PM »
IIRC, the U.S. version of SMB2 doesn't have a clock. Then again, I haven't played it in years. It was very exploration orientated, especially near the end of the game. Regarding the cape, merely flying through the whole thing might not nessecarily be the best thing in every level since long distance high speed flight lacks a bit of precision control, something that IIRC was needed to reach a lot of the secret exits, not to mention the cape being ineffective in water, fortress, and castle levels. I'd rate the cape as being lower on the broken scale than the red gem with its half strength TBG property that's availible at will with infinite duration, primarily because the advantage gained is situational and is gone if you get hit. On the bright side, I'd say TMC is pretty lucky in terms of broken items. There's some stuff I'll have to deal with that's beyond broken. I'm literately talking about stuff with properties that cause the player to have an "instant win button" ready at any moment with very little cooldown. Anyway, whos the staff for TMC going to be?
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2007, 04:33:31 PM »
What about CAing for SM64 or SMS? And there are red coin challenges and such like that for SMS that are timed, that can be tracked. Finally, IIRC the Wario games have timers, but I'll need to check on that.

Also, I say don't count exits as seperate worlds.

Edit: I just saw that SMS is on the established community list. Ignore that.

I was gonna suggest Sunshine myself actually. :P
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2007, 08:51:09 AM »
Hey guys! Super Paper Mario FTW :D
I can assist here if you all are interested. This would be a great addition as it works very similar to the original Mario - minus the 3D variations and other features that is.. - but I'm referring to competition material.

Scores and coins. Not sure whether or not there's a timer...
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Offline Spinballwizard

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2007, 02:37:58 AM »
What about CAing for SM64 or SMS? And there are red coin challenges and such like that for SMS that are timed, that can be tracked. Finally, IIRC the Wario games have timers, but I'll need to check on that.

Also, I say don't count exits as seperate worlds.

Edit: I just saw that SMS is on the established community list. Ignore that.

I was gonna suggest Sunshine myself actually. :P
Way to read the post you're quoting. And to contribute.

No sarcasm at all.

As for discussions... I'm not the biggest Mario expert, but I do have some input on NSMB.

In most cases, I don't see carryover being a problem. Only problem I see is that on boss levels you can come in as whatever incarnation you want, but once you get to the boss arena you activate the Mega Mushroom you've been stockpiling, and defeat the boss in one swell foop. Not the biggest advantage (you still have to get through the whole level), but something to think about.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2007, 04:21:15 PM »
I meant that I was going to suggest that before I also realized it's alreayd an established community. What is it with you and always questioning me?

Anyway, I'll help on Super Paper Mario soon as I'm planning on renting it this week, hopefully.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2007, 06:41:29 PM »
I dont see how SPM has any real competitive value
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Offline Rick_242

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2007, 06:59:09 PM »
As for discussions... I'm not the biggest Mario expert, but I do have some input on NSMB.

In most cases, I don't see carryover being a problem. Only problem I see is that on boss levels you can come in as whatever incarnation you want, but once you get to the boss arena you activate the Mega Mushroom you've been stockpiling, and defeat the boss in one swell foop. Not the biggest advantage (you still have to get through the whole level), but something to think about.

Not really. Using the Mega mushroom to 1-hit pwn the boss isn't usually the best idea Considering it takes 3 seconds for it to start falling, 2 for it to reach you, and another 3 to transform when the Fire Flower would have killed the boss already. :/

I can see it useful in other places like World 7-Cstle but, overall it's something that should be left as is (it could be useful in other boss-stages but, I can't think of any right now <_<). In addition there are only 9 boss battles (mini-bosses don't count) which is only a small percent out of all TAable stages.

... Though I feel as if I wasted my time talking about something that is obvious. -.-
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 11:17:51 AM »
I dont see how SPM has any real competitive value

We shall see...
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Offline sonicam

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 12:51:30 PM »
Add Super Mario Bros. DX to that list as there's a Challenge Mode that just screams competition (you'll see Scores up on N64HS website).

As for two exits, use the fastest one.

How would Super Mario Bros. 2 work? Neither games (All Stars, the original, nor SMA) track times nor coins. SMA tracks scores, but it's all cumulative and there are infinite enemies.

Wario Land 3 has a built in Time Attack Mode that you can unlock. You have to obtain all 4 colored keys in the stage and then rush to an exit. Your times are very conveniently shown. :o
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Offline General Throatstomper

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 09:44:10 PM »
I own Super Paper Mario. I hate to state the obvious, but you can't compete in it as scores aren't tracked for each level (it's cumulative), coins aren't tracked for each level (also cumulative), and there isn't a timer. Unless you're up for competing in highest consecutive jump total and stylish moves performed (the only stats you can really compete in for this game) In all honesty I posted just to crush ks8's hopes.

I won't be competing, but I think I can offer some (relatively) informed opinions.

Tracking alternate exits would be a bad idea. You'll invariably wind up with confusion because one person might think the regular exit to be the alternate exit or the other way around. Aside from that, you're imposing multiple playthroughs of near identical routes on a player (though it's nothing new to Sonic competition...I suppose doing so is fair game).

Importing items doesn't strike me as something to be banned. You're allowed to carry shields from act to act in S3&K, so how is this different?

There are also the minigames that can be tracked in SM64DS/NSMB. While not traditional Mario, they are still there.

Those are my (unintentionally condescending) two cents.


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Offline magnum12

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 10:42:51 PM »
In terms of alternate exits, here's my two cents. This applies to Super Mario World.
-Exits that require the use of the key are classifed as alternate exits.
-The exit for the big ghost house in Donut Plains in which you defeat the boss to enter star road is the alternate exit.
-We might have to manually designate which exit is the alternate exit in the other ghost houses.
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Offline Stefan

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2007, 11:40:50 AM »
I don't think the option to start out as any mario you want is a viable one, and here is why: SMW would end up being nothing but flying through EVERY level. That's rather boring isn't it? I think, instead, one should need to start with small mario, and use powerups only if they appear in the level. This rule, however, adds to the two exits confusion. Some exits, for example, just can't be accessed without a cape and there are none in the level. A perfect example of this is the first ghost house.

I think track one exit per level, the fastest one. Tracking seperate exits is slightly like tracking levels in SA2 with and without warps.


Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2007, 04:20:53 PM »
I own Super Paper Mario. I hate to state the obvious, but you can't compete in it as scores aren't tracked for each level (it's cumulative), coins aren't tracked for each level (also cumulative), and there isn't a timer. Unless you're up for competing in highest consecutive jump total and stylish moves performed (the only stats you can really compete in for this game) In all honesty I posted just to crush ks8's hopes.


I already realized SPM is not possible for scores. That's why I dropped the idea and am possibly adding the mini-games on my sub-site.
And yeah you wanting to crush my hopes was a given...
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Offline yse

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2007, 07:40:01 AM »
Hm.

-Wario Lands 3 and 4 will be added, does 1 have a timer?

-I might change things for SMW such that you must start with small Mario, but on NSMB I intend to let it stand. I think the competition potential is far increased with the rule in play but the cape does destroy competition. Maybe just disallow a starting cape?

-Tracking one or two exits on SMW/NSMB is still under debate.

Also somebody whip up some charts for Mario Center-able games when they have the time plz~

Also first post edited, go check out stuff there~
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:50:03 AM by mike89 »

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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2007, 09:19:16 AM »
For Super Mario World: In Funky, you can eat berries to extend the time, what about that?
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2007, 11:12:35 AM »
Oh guys,  although some might not classify this as platformer, what about Mario VS DK (1 and 2: March of the Minis)? Just a thought..

I can gladly help with charts if you guys need it.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2007, 03:18:28 PM »
Details regarding MVDK:

Stages for Divisions:
-Normal Stages : Worlds 1-6
 *Each has 6 stages, a mini-mario level and a boss stage
-PLUS Stages : Worlds 1-6
 *Each has 6 stages and a boss
-EXPERT Stages: Stages 1-12

CATEGORIES:
1. Times - times for NORMAL Stages, more details see below
2. Scores - scores for all stages
3. Extra - times for PLUS and Expert Stages
4. Bosses - are scored and timed as well (only scores are recorded). Score tabulations indicate a time bonus (how long you take to beat the boss), the amount of lives you have left and one other variable I believe. Up to you guys what you want to track. Personally, I'd say Scores.

RE: ALL TIMES (Normal Plus and Expert)

*Normal Stages (Main Game)
->All boss stages have a timer of 180 EXCEPT the bosses for Worlds 3, 4 and 5, all of which have a 150-second timer.
->All Mini-Mario stages have various timers (example world 1's has a 90-sec timer; World 2's has a 120-second timer). So it's up to you how you want to track these stages.
->Normal Stages all have have two parts to them and they all start on a different timer (first stages have 90 but others have like 120, 150 and I think one stage had 180, I don't remember...) but once you reach the stage's second part, you get an added time bonus to your timer depending on how fast you beat the 1st part of the stage, which can change the timer dramatically (maximum up to the high 200's, never seen 300-second timer ever). If you die in the 2nd part of the stage, though, (just lose on life), all the time bonus will be lost and the timer will reset back to a 150-second timer. It's up to you guys how you want to work this out as it's your center but I just thought I'd share the info.

*Plus Stages
->All stages (1-6) per world have a timer of 150 seconds EXCEPT World 1-6+, 1-2+, and 2-4+ (2-4+ shouldn't be added because it is way too easy; easier than the first stage: beat it in like 6 seconds).

*Expert Stages
->All have a timer of 150 thus far but I've only tried stages 1 through 5 (don't know anything about 6 through 12).
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2007, 02:12:31 PM »
I know this sub site is for platformers, but I think Wario Ware has excellent potential for competition in the score division and should be relatively popular. It tracks several levels along with scores for specific micro games, giving it nearly as many divisions as SA:2B.

I'm thinking of adding it to my Mini-Game Center, 'member? If I do, I'll need to have someone who's familiar with Smooth Moves as I'm only familiar with Twisted and Micro games. I originally compiled large lists of all WarioWare games (one or two are incomplete) in my topic if you're interested.

And IMO, some of the Sports games are (potentially) competitive but then again it is your Center...
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Offline yoshifan

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2007, 02:30:26 PM »
For Mario vs. Donkey Kong, I think the 102 score charts (48 normal, 42 plus, 12 expert) should be sufficient.  The game only tracks scores and not times, and time is a big factor when playing for scores anyway.

One interesting thing I found about this game at Cyberscore: Level 2-4 has some sort of version difference.  In this level, I believe some version(s) of the game are given 30 more seconds on the countdown timer, giving them a clear 3000-point advantage when the time bonus is tallied.  Though I'm not sure what one could do about it; I'm not sure that it's reason enough to remove the chart.

Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2007, 04:56:38 PM »
Thanks for your help! :D

Chart!
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2007, 03:57:00 PM »
What in the world!! DL'd 66 times!! :o Must be a glitch...

edit:
Want me to make any more charts. I can do NSMB if you want. Just tell me all the stages. Is it Worlds 1-8, each with a varying number of stages (?), plus an "A" level (underwater I'm guessing, basing it on IGN's guide here), a "Tower" level and the "Castle" level. How do you guys want me to divide everything up? Are you dubbing castle stages as "bosses"?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 12:37:50 PM by knuckles_sonic8 »
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2007, 01:30:44 PM »
NSMB charts are already drafted on TNSC AFAIK
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2007, 03:14:18 PM »
Oh, okay. No biggie. Guys want me to make any other charts, then?
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Offline P.P.A.

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2007, 06:59:22 AM »
I'm gonna compete in SMW and NSMB.

Okay, the reason for my post:
I thought about the rules for SMW, and these are my suggestions:
-No power-ups/Yoshi allowed to bring in the stages.
-Exits are not always tracked. Rules are made individually. Example: Donut Plains 1: The secret exit is near the normal one. Once the green switch is activated, it becomes more easily accessible than the normal one, so I'd say only one goal is tracked. But in Star Road 5 for example both are tracked.
-Switch Palaces should be allowed to activate.
-A freestyle mode, where you can bring anything you want. Capes, Yoshi, whatever. Exits that are not accessible without bringing an item into the stage are tracked here, unlike in normal.

I'm willing to help specifying the exit rules. Actually, I'd like to help with the site in general.
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Offline KnucklesSonic8

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2007, 03:10:21 PM »
Yeah, I shouldda mentioned it too that I'ld like to assist in the running of this sub-site. What needs to be done to prepare for launch that I could potentially assist with?
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Offline JBertolli

Re: Mario Center discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2007, 10:11:18 PM »
Well, I have SMW but it is broke (it only plays sometimes and sometimes freezes <_<) but I may get a another, working, one. I'd say, in most cases, just track one exit. Start every level as baby mario and collect items as you go along in the level. Freestyle can break this rule. And all (!) switches should be allowed. There is one problem here: it is possible to pass a checkpoint and die to restart the timer but be put at the checkpoint. I don't know what to do about that...

I don't own MvDK but isn't it a 2-D, platformer Mario game? I don't see why it wouldn't go on here.

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