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61
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 12, 2014, 11:20:27 pm »
Surprised you all actually agree on this. Okay then. :P
Only issue now is where should people host these files? An ideal solution would be uploading straight to TSC, but that functionality doesn't exist, so people will need to either upload to an external site (no idea which one), or they'll have to attach it to a forum post.
I guess we could say you need to post the giz in the random .giz thread, and then link to your post in the stat comment? Or maybe there should be a separate thread for that, especially since this wouldn't be limited to .giz files.
Only issue now is where should people host these files? An ideal solution would be uploading straight to TSC, but that functionality doesn't exist, so people will need to either upload to an external site (no idea which one), or they'll have to attach it to a forum post.
I guess we could say you need to post the giz in the random .giz thread, and then link to your post in the stat comment? Or maybe there should be a separate thread for that, especially since this wouldn't be limited to .giz files.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 12, 2014, 07:48:57 am »
I honestly think just leaving all emulators unbanned and strengthening proof requirements for all emulated runs is the best option. Most of the suggestions in this thread are really messy and weird half-solutions that won't really accomplish anything.
Also, I don't think faking runs by TASing is as big of an issue as some people in this thread seem to think it is. Most competitors submit legitimate stats and the ones that don't usually leave a tell somewhere and get caught, like SonicBoom said. With higher proof requirements it'll be even harder for them to slip something by.
Also, I don't think faking runs by TASing is as big of an issue as some people in this thread seem to think it is. Most competitors submit legitimate stats and the ones that don't usually leave a tell somewhere and get caught, like SonicBoom said. With higher proof requirements it'll be even harder for them to slip something by.
63
News and Updates / Re: Sonic's future goes BOOM and site shenanigans
« on: February 11, 2014, 05:52:36 am »
I get what you're saying, but I just wanna point out that we DO have Video/Guide sections on the site already. It's up to you guys to actually use them. :P
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Beef / Re: SAnic cRaYons
« on: February 11, 2014, 12:12:49 am »
yeah I think there's too many colors actually, maybe we can condense a few of them
65
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 07, 2014, 01:33:05 am »
I dunno, it seems like it'd be incredibly easy to effectively TAS a run with just save states. Disable status messages, savestate wherever you want, and record your run in real time rather than with an emulator recording feature. Then after you finish it's a simple matter of cutting off the video where you save state and joining it back on the first frame after that in your next successful "segment". If we're talking about banning features that make it easy to cheat should we not ban save states?
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News and Updates / Re: Sonic's future goes BOOM and site shenanigans
« on: February 07, 2014, 12:49:43 am »I'm really hoping that significant things do get done this time around, but it is very clear that certain things need to change in order for that to happen; else, in a month or two from now, this will just be a memory, as it has wound up being in the past. :(
I do too. Believe me, Thorn and I both very much want to make some significant things happen soon. I'm not sure how much I should say right now, because we haven't fully fleshed out what we want to do yet, but hopefully you'll be hearing a lot more soon.
Just wanna say for the record though that I think Thorn initially misquoted our conversation in his first post, though - we never talked about bringing Race Night to TSC. I actually think it's fine on SRL; they already handle the race thing very well and it's a great way to pull Sonic runners from SRL over to TSC.
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Hiya Folks / Re: My Introduction, SLICED THINLY (if you please)~
« on: February 06, 2014, 10:12:05 pm »
Oh hey Sol! Welcome to TSC!
68
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 06, 2014, 04:18:05 am »Just like converting a TAS to a non-TAS emulator with replaying features is a bit of work, rewriting the source for one to include such a feature is a lot of work for something as simple as submitting a stat for this site.
You are completely missing the point. The problem isn't that someone might add a new feature. The problem is that the emulators with TAS features are also the most accurate emulators, which means banning them forces players to play on less accurate ones.
Let me ask a question to hopefully make this debate a little more clear. What TAS features, specifically, are we talking about banning? Obviously frame advance is out. What about save states?
Personally, I don't think it's impossible to have a subjective rule in place, but I also don't think it's entirely unreasonable to expect someone to get an official release of the game if they want to compete on it. So eh. With that in mind, here's another question: Who here would be personally bothered if emulators with TAS features were banned? Similarly, what if all emulators were banned?
69
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 02, 2014, 11:20:05 am »
To be honest I'm still not entirely convinced things aren't fine enough the way they are now. I know it's not a perfect solution, particularly because it doesn't inspire confidence from the outside looking in, but we've been able to do a pretty good job identifying TASers by picking out little clues from their videos before. I dunno, allowing people to actually present something as proof and then actually looking at it and evaluating how likely it is to be legitimate instead of just immediately writing it off as inadmissable seems more sensible and fair to me.
Inuyasha also brought up a valid point that no one's responded to about emulators with TAS features also tending to be the most accurate ones because they're open-source. I'm no emulator expert here but if anyone wants to list some highly accurate, closed-source emulators without TAS features, be my guest. Inaccurate emulators are just as bad as emulators that facilitate cheating.
Um, you do realize it's trivial to record a video and then play it back and record the recording on a camera, right? That does absolutely nothing.
By the way guys, just for the record - if a rule change does happen as a result of this thread, anything submitted before the date of this particular rule would be grandfathered in. I'm not interested in scouring the site to find every single stat that was run on an illegal emulator over the last decade, and so far I haven't heard any volunteers. :P Yeah, it's a general rule that new rules render old stats in violation of the new rule void - we can make an exception. Not a big deal.
EDIT: Something similar to what Infersaime brought up on IRC a while ago - maybe what would make more sense is adding tighter restrictions to emulator stats. Like for example, say that all stats done on an emulator are required to have a video/emulator movie file attached. That would still allow people to run on emulators while also making it a bit easier to catch out cheaters.
Inuyasha also brought up a valid point that no one's responded to about emulators with TAS features also tending to be the most accurate ones because they're open-source. I'm no emulator expert here but if anyone wants to list some highly accurate, closed-source emulators without TAS features, be my guest. Inaccurate emulators are just as bad as emulators that facilitate cheating.
Quote
If a proof is needed, there's a simple way to avoid fake videos: not letting them to record with the emulator or screen recorders. To show the proof recorded, use a camera or a cellular phone and play in windowed mode.
Um, you do realize it's trivial to record a video and then play it back and record the recording on a camera, right? That does absolutely nothing.
By the way guys, just for the record - if a rule change does happen as a result of this thread, anything submitted before the date of this particular rule would be grandfathered in. I'm not interested in scouring the site to find every single stat that was run on an illegal emulator over the last decade, and so far I haven't heard any volunteers. :P Yeah, it's a general rule that new rules render old stats in violation of the new rule void - we can make an exception. Not a big deal.
EDIT: Something similar to what Infersaime brought up on IRC a while ago - maybe what would make more sense is adding tighter restrictions to emulator stats. Like for example, say that all stats done on an emulator are required to have a video/emulator movie file attached. That would still allow people to run on emulators while also making it a bit easier to catch out cheaters.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: February 02, 2014, 08:26:16 am »Also if you're going to be ban some emulators wouldn't it be better to ban every emulator? It just seems a bit stupid to only ban some specific ones where the TAS features are easily available.
Banning all emulators is what makes the most sense to me, and if we were starting from scratch that's what I'd vote for, but it seems kinda pointless at this point. Plus there'd be so much backlash.
Even aside from TAS, they introduce tons of legitimacy issues, like whether the emulator is accurate or running at full speed.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 30, 2014, 03:26:45 am »
Then you interpreted my post wrong. What you replied to is not what I said or meant at all.
Yeah, I don't get this. So you're saying we should allow the emulators in competition, but not allow videos made with said emulators as proof?
So say someone gets a good time using Gens, and records their run. This is perfectly allowed. Then someone has doubts about it, and the person gets called out. They've got a recording of the perfectly TSC-legal run they did, but apparently this isn't sufficient proof? What else are they supposed to do then? We won't take the emulator video. Nothing they can do on Gens proves they didn't TAS. They can rerecord it on console or a different emulator, but this wouldn't be considered acceptable proof either because it was done after the BS call was made. There's nothing they can do to prove they got their stat fairly, which by your rules would mean an automatic ban - all this despite the fact that the user didn't actually break a single rule.
Do you see why this is problematic? We can't just say "it's fine to submit stats with Gens, but Gens videos aren't sufficient proof".
Yeah, I don't get this. So you're saying we should allow the emulators in competition, but not allow videos made with said emulators as proof?
So say someone gets a good time using Gens, and records their run. This is perfectly allowed. Then someone has doubts about it, and the person gets called out. They've got a recording of the perfectly TSC-legal run they did, but apparently this isn't sufficient proof? What else are they supposed to do then? We won't take the emulator video. Nothing they can do on Gens proves they didn't TAS. They can rerecord it on console or a different emulator, but this wouldn't be considered acceptable proof either because it was done after the BS call was made. There's nothing they can do to prove they got their stat fairly, which by your rules would mean an automatic ban - all this despite the fact that the user didn't actually break a single rule.
Do you see why this is problematic? We can't just say "it's fine to submit stats with Gens, but Gens videos aren't sufficient proof".
72
Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 30, 2014, 12:38:40 am »It puts us in the same awkward position of allowing times that couldn't possibly be proven beyond any doubt either way. The recent thread with supersonic917 is a good example of this.
So basically you're saying that just because you could TAS the same way on Gamecube or Wii (although it's a lot more complicated to get it to synch properly) that we shouldn't take precautions for other consoles where a ban on a specific type of emulators would be a big help against BS:ers like the example you just posted? What?
Do you also think that just because you can't stop murders simply by outlawing weapons, that people should be allowed to have handguns with them at all times? Oh wait, bad example, you're from the US :p.
Anyway I don't follow your logic. The only implications of such a rule would be that if you get called out for getting fantasy times, that you can't point to a video made on a TAS emulator, for cases where there's no real reason to such as Genesis.
That's what we call a straw man. I never said that we shouldn't take precautions, and hell, I didn't even mean it as a reason why we shouldn't ban Gens and Bizhawk. I said that if we ban Gens and Bizhawk then we should also ban other emulators on other systems that have TASing features. Good job responding to arguments I never made and making assumptions about my position on completely unrelated issues.
I'm confused what you're arguing for, though. Do you want us to ban those emulators from submissions or do you just want us to not consider runs done on them to be acceptable proof in the event someone gets called out? Because the former makes sense, but I don't understand the point of the latter because there's no hard rules for what qualifies as acceptable proof anyway. We already determine that on a case by case basis. Plus if we allow those stats on the site in the first place, then if someone gets accused there's really nothing they can do to clear their name, and we like to give the accused a fair chance to prove themselves, so that won't work.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 29, 2014, 03:27:08 am »
Could the actual console not be considered a viable alternative? :P It seems weird to say some emulators aren't allowed because you can TAS on them, but others are fine even though they have the same TASing features simply because there's no emulators without those features. It puts us in the same awkward position of allowing times that couldn't possibly be proven beyond any doubt either way. The recent thread with supersonic917 is a good example of this.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 28, 2014, 10:20:34 pm »
Something I brought up on IRC a while ago that might bear repeating here - if we're going to ban Gens/Bizhawk, why stop at that? Why not ban Dolphin, DeSmuME, Visual Boy Advance, and any other emulators that have TASing features for other systems? The Genesis and Gamegear aren't the only systems that you can TAS on.
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Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: supersonic917
« on: January 23, 2014, 09:38:14 am »
Right, so I think that display of idiocy warrants a forumban. On top of that bizarre attempt at trolling the forums with a second account, supersonic917 also decided to delete every single one of his posts. I've restored them all so this thread will make some semblance of sense.
On top of that, I vote for giving him a site ban too, but I'm gonna wait for Thorn on that one since it's his BS call.
On top of that, I vote for giving him a site ban too, but I'm gonna wait for Thorn on that one since it's his BS call.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 20, 2014, 07:35:31 pm »
Honestly though, how far should we go in requesting proof from people? Although we strive to keep the charts as legitimate as possible, ultimately there's so many different ways people can cheat that there's no way we could safeguard against all of them. At some point you just need to accept somebody at their word that they didn't cheat. It's not an ideal solution, but a better one would require pretty much an overhaul of the entire site and all its policies.
The other thing is when people fake proof, they tend to not be very knowledgeable about how a human would actually go about getting a similar stat to what they're claiming. That means there's often little discrepancies in the proof they provide, and when questioned about it they tend to provide explanations that make no sense. We've caught plenty of BSers who faked proof that way before, and probably will again in the future.
In the example you cited, if this guy had a video and nobody could find any reason to doubt it aside from that it was done on an emulator with TAS features? Yes, I'd accept that. Either way if he continued posting videos then there'd be more material to work with down the line as for determining more definitively whether he's a cheater or not, so it makes no sense to ban him.
The other thing is when people fake proof, they tend to not be very knowledgeable about how a human would actually go about getting a similar stat to what they're claiming. That means there's often little discrepancies in the proof they provide, and when questioned about it they tend to provide explanations that make no sense. We've caught plenty of BSers who faked proof that way before, and probably will again in the future.
In the example you cited, if this guy had a video and nobody could find any reason to doubt it aside from that it was done on an emulator with TAS features? Yes, I'd accept that. Either way if he continued posting videos then there'd be more material to work with down the line as for determining more definitively whether he's a cheater or not, so it makes no sense to ban him.
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Rules Revisions / Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition
« on: January 20, 2014, 07:06:19 pm »
Yeah my bad, Rules Revisions is the correct board for this. Moved.
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Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: Hypersonic64
« on: January 19, 2014, 10:03:13 pm »
I've suspended all of Hypersonic's stats in Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles.
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Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: Markoszarrate
« on: January 19, 2014, 09:59:58 pm »
There's reason to doubt this stat is legitimate, but there's not a whole ton in the way of proof one way or the other. Since this thread hasn't been posted in for 8 months, and since Markos said he doesn't care what happens to the stat, I've suspended it. If he can come back and prove that it's legitimate he can resubmit it.
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Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: supersonic917
« on: January 17, 2014, 05:44:33 pm »
If you slowed down both the video and the webcam by the same amount then there should be no problem having them sync up correctly.
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Information Kiosk / Re: Delete this account
« on: January 16, 2014, 02:14:00 am »
We don't delete accounts, like Thorn has said, but if you want we can change your TSC username for you.
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General Sonic / Re: A Sonic Game Dream.
« on: January 14, 2014, 01:24:55 pm »
Yeah Thorn, geez. His dreams aren't supernatural, they're just foreseeing the future. I see nothing wrong with that. Stop being a jerk with all your fancy "logic" and "reason".
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General Sonic / Re: A Sonic Game Dream.
« on: January 14, 2014, 01:13:16 pm »Since you are the moderator of lucid game dreams, Thorn, why isn't there a board FOR game dreams?
You know what? This is a very good question. In fact, it's SUCH a good question that I've gone ahead and fixed this. Here you go
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General Sonic / Re: A Sonic Game Dream.
« on: January 13, 2014, 02:59:33 pm »
what the hell is going on in this thread
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Leaderboard Disputes / Re: ATTN: supersonic917
« on: January 04, 2014, 03:05:45 pm »
Did the framerate drop below 60 at some point during any of your runs? If so, those stats are invalid, whether they're TASed or not.
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Leaderboard Disputes / Reminder: The rules of LD
« on: December 31, 2013, 12:31:43 pm »
This seems like a good time to reiterate this, since apparently the other sticky topic about this isn't enough: Don't post in this board without admin permission unless you are the person being called out.
Given the sensitive nature of threads in this board, chances are if you are posting without consulting one of us, then you are very likely to derail the thread if not make it much harder for us to actually determine what's going on. If you feel you have something valid or helpful to post, you can reach Thorn, Zeupar or me through IRC or forum PM.
From now on, violations of this rule will be taken more seriously.
Given the sensitive nature of threads in this board, chances are if you are posting without consulting one of us, then you are very likely to derail the thread if not make it much harder for us to actually determine what's going on. If you feel you have something valid or helpful to post, you can reach Thorn, Zeupar or me through IRC or forum PM.
From now on, violations of this rule will be taken more seriously.
87
Wikkity! / Re: Re: The new way things are going down in LD
« on: December 18, 2013, 11:15:20 am »OK. Since no one really gives a shit about what I say, I may as well give a short summary of what I do.
[snip]
Are you for real? You come onto the site and (allegedly) intentionally act like a complete idiot and expect us to be fine with you about it?
I really don't care whether you review us or not, but if you keep bumping years-old threads and derailing topics with stupidity like this, you're looking at getting a forum ban on top of your site ban.
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Information Kiosk / Re: Delete this account
« on: December 17, 2013, 07:09:44 am »
We generally don't delete accounts. Why do you want to do this?
89
Competition Central / Re: Sonic Generations Speed Glitch Execution Dispute
« on: December 10, 2013, 06:29:11 am »
You guys know this thread is well over a year old, right? Thread necromancy is a sin.
90
News and Updates / Re: TSC Twitch Team!
« on: December 09, 2013, 04:49:59 pm »
Yeah, what DsS said. Don't worry about it if you're streaming non-Sonic games, it's just a team for TSC members.
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