The Sonic Center
Sonic Central => Competition Central => Topic started by: DsSaster on August 06, 2012, 02:32:36 pm
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The speed glitch that is used in Sonic Generations (and Sonic Unleashed) is performed when you tilt your analog very slightly to the point where Sonic's slowest walking speed is achieved, you have enough speed (usually gained through a boost or speed pad), and are in the air.
With that out of the way, here is the dispute. There is the possibility of having a controller with enough wear on the analog stick so that the speed glitch can be executed without having to place and hold the analog stick into position yourself. I need to know if this is TSC legal or not?
In this same regard, a rubber band can be used to keep the analog stick in place for easy execution as well. As with the previous scenario, is that TSC legal or not?
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Regarding to wearing your control stick until it's able to pull off the speed glitch with no effort is about as close to having a "modded controller" as you can possibly get so I'll vote for that being banned. The rubber band trick probably not since that's about the same as using a spoon to mash buttons faster (i.e. Dead Line Boss in Sonic Rush).
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I definitely vote -no- to using a worn controller that gives the player an advantage, because as bertin has pointed out it's pretty much the same as using a modded game controller. Bash me if you will, but I also believe that spoon, pencil and rubber band tricks should also be banned from the competition, as the player is using an external item to again give them a gameplay advantage, items that are not part of the game controller. I know this sounds daft, but a player with a spoon, rubber band or pencil can have the upper hand on a player who doesn't. Using one's fingernail is a debatable issue, but (here goes...) I think this should also be banned as (this sounds stupid but) players with longer fingernails have an advantage over players without. It's not a part of the game controller, and, in my opinion, should thereby be made illegal. As you can see I have quite strong and strict opinions on the issue, but I think the competition should be made as fair to all the competitors as possible, and that means eradicating these sorts of allowances that give players the upper hand on each other. These are just my personal opinions on the matter.
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Like HyperSonic7701 said, it would be essentially impossible to make sure people don't use the tricks, but enforcing these rules would be better than not enforcing them at all, as honest players would (hopefully) stick to them. That is, if the majority of members share the same views as I do.
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I'd rather see the speed glitch banned altogether, but that's just me.
Maybe without that stupid glitch TAing the game would actually be a little bit fun.
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Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.
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Yeah, I agree it's definitely an unfair advantage for anyone who happens to have a controller like that. I would be in favor of banning it if anyone could actually come up with a way to ban it. It doesn't seem reasonable to require everyone to play using a brand new controller. Not to mention actually enforcing the rule.
Similarly speaking I'm against rubber banding the controller.
Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.
uh, I don't understand what exactly you're trying to say here?
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Inuyasha there's nothing stopping you from NOT using the glitch. You can still get decent times so stop whining about it being banned.
Other than this I can see why a worn out controller could be an issue, though as Umbreon said it'd be lame having to get a new controller just to play one game. And the rubber band thing, I ahve no clue
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Generations = yes even im not using none of those two methods.(Im using third one)
Unleashed = no. Its possible to do it without these methods.
uh, I don't understand what exactly you're trying to say here?
banning the generations glitch times will be ok for me but not the Unleashed ones.
Many of my Generations submissions (last three months)were using my broken controler and without touching the stick (for example i made Shadow hard WR on 3rd time) Blast effect and M-speed tricks in my Times and videos are pulled automatically without touching anything.
BTW hypersonic and danieldue made a great point. You cant determine time legitimacy until you see player hands in a video.
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So why did you say you weren't using either method? if this was banned, your times would be banned too, right?
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So why did you say you weren't using either method? if this was banned, your times would be banned too, right?
It was meaned that i was using third method (broken controler).not the two listed.
And yeah. It looks weird but im not against banning my Gens times.
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The broken controller comes under the damaged analog stick method though, so if they were to be banned and you say you got htem with your broken controller, that would make your times banned, too?
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Dss mentioned these
1. enough wear
2. rubber band
3. broken analog stick
4. fair play
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Enough wear is basically a broken analog stick where you have your stick permanently in a certain posisition which is going to help you perform the glitch better. So therefore your times would be invalid. Bad explanation but you get the message.
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A breakdown of my post to clear up any confusion.
The speed glitch that is used in Sonic Generations (and Sonic Unleashed) is performed when you tilt your analog very slightly to the point where Sonic's slowest walking speed is achieved, you have enough speed (usually gained through a boost or speed pad), and are in the air.
^ This is how the glitch is done.
With that out of the way, here is the dispute. There is the possibility of having a controller with enough wear on the analog stick so that the speed glitch can be executed without having to place and hold the analog stick into position yourself. I need to know if this is TSC legal or not?
^ Should having enough wear on your controller to execute the speed glitch automatically (in other words, the analog stick is in the correct position to do the speed glitch without you touching it [yes, this means a broken controller as well]) be banned?
In this same regard, a rubber band can be used to keep the analog stick in place for easy execution as well. As with the previous scenario, is that TSC legal or not?
^ Should using a rubber band to hold the analog stick in place to execute the speed glitch automatically be banned?
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why not the Unleashed ones? Having a broken controller can help in Unleashed too, can't it?
Haven't done it in Unleashed so I'm not clear on the differences.
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The only logical solutions I see are banning the glitch altogether or leaving things how they are now.
Banning certain controller issues sounds incredibly awkward: I can tell you that controller advantages and disadvantages exist in pretty much every game, such as the Wiimote's motion unresponsiveness in SUWii (and lack of a homing attack button), the constant quick stepping glitch experienced by some Sonic Generations PC players, and people who use a keyboard (its layout is different than that of a controller). And about the rubber band thing: as long as you don't use some kind of cheat feature such as autofire, IMO you're free to manage your controller in any way you feel its better; it's no different than finding a way to shake the Wiimote faster.
And about the total ban: have you considered if the speed glitch is worth joining the list of "big glitches that fuck up the entire game" like those in SA2 and Heroes? Probably not in Generations, but in Unleashed is a different thing (BJG!).
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If the speed glitch was banned completely at TSC I would stop competing in Generations at TSC.
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In my opinion, I think that using other objects to execute the speed glitch (or anything, in that matter) should be banned. I don't see anyway we can enforce the rule of a worn controller, because asking people to spend money that they might not even have at the moment to be able to post times with the glitch is wrong. I think that the glitch should be banned altogether, though it pains me to say it. It is impossible to be certain if someone is using a modded controller or not, because for all we know it was a lucky run, and we can't ban/remove a stat for someone who was lucky to get a good time.
Sorry Umbreon, but that's my opinion.
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A lot of discussion here is sounding a lot like the discussion in this topic. (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5276.0)
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GET A LOAD OF THIS!
Okay I need to weigh in my opinion here [#3 yeah boi holla to the high ranker]. People who know me from the irc should be quite (QUITE) aware that I am strictly against any and all forms of the speed glitch (Both Classic/Modern). Part of it is in hopes that maybe people will realise how insanely divided this glitch makes Generations. As I am a PC player, I don't have the convenience of doing it with little to no effort, so hell, if I WOULD do it it probably would be through means like this, with the rubber bands and what not. Because I like to play the game too.
Would a decision like this going negative badly affect the Generations charts? HELL YES. Would it make the competition more accessible instead of Classic records being 1 of the 4 (estimate) out of 111 people on the site who actually use this trick? HELL YES.
I think the biggest question here is do we want records or competition?
That's my say, you guys can work out the rest. As someone who may not even finish the few Extra/Ring charts I have left to go, I am just speaking as someone who was apart of the heat of records flying which-way-but-anywhere when these glitches were getting absolutely understood.
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Uhh, we have a lot more than 4 players who use the glitch. It really doesn't divide the charts at all. The only way you could possibly consider that it does that is through the version difference thing, and:
A. we already have a clear stance on version differences that nobody is debating
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B. it doesn't even apply to the whole game; it's situational, and when it does work - in terms of difficulty, not effectiveness - it's just as hard on console as it is on PC. I just went and did M-speed on Shadow on the PC version on my first try.
As for the biggest question: we want competition. And to have competition you can't arbitrarily ban things because you don't like them. The issue here is broken and modded controllers, not the glitch itself.
edit: not to mention the glitch is totally useless on sky sanctuary, speed highway, and rooftop run, and doesn't significantly break the level in crisis city, seaside hill, or planet wisp... so you really don't even need it to compete in most classic charts anyway
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And to have competition you can't arbitrarily ban things because you don't like them. The issue here is broken and modded controllers, not the glitch itself.
Well, if you DON'T ban it, then you are allowing broken/modded controllers, because you won't be able to moderate it, so I'd say banning the glitch and banning modded controllers are fairly intertwined here. You can't just allow it and instantly know whether a sub is with a broken controller, a modded one, or even just an old one with wear.
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I agree. It isn't possible to know if someone used a modded controller or not. In order to keep the leaderboards fully legitamite, we have to ban it. It will be too hard and too much work to make sure the participants aren't using modded controllers and such. I know this is a little unfair to participants who use the speed glitch legitimately, but its one of our only options.
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We can't enforce half the rules on the site. Hell, we can't even enforce "don't submit stats you didn't get" 100%. Doesn't mean there's no point in having the rule.
In any case, I'd rather allow broken and modded controllers than banning the glitch if it came down to that. Even aside from this glitch, are we really going to start banning stuff just because someone might be able to do it easier than others? If someone had a genesis controller with a sticky C button that caused the input to flicker in and out rapidly, letting them do fast spindashes very easily, are we going to ban spindashing?
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I agree with umbreon, there's no way to monitor whether you cheat or not, so cheating with modded controllers on the blast effect isnt really any different. As umbreon said we're not going to ban spin dashing, people can easily submit fake times - look at the leadeing time and give them a tenth place time - noone will know. Anyone could do the runs on a TAS emulator, or use savestates, but what satisfaction does that give to the person who got the times, that they cheated? To see highly competitive runs the blast effect is really good, as is m-speed etc. Banning it just because some people can cheat with it isn't really a very good solution. Just because you can do the blast effect doesn't mean that you can top the leaderboards - there are loads of added difficult moves to be done on top of them.
If you start banning the blast effect are you going to ban the PC version because the game can run really slow on a computer not powerful enough to run it, giving someone an advantage of playing at slow motion? There are so many aspects that can change how good the times will be - Sonic Speed running is about pushing the games to their limits - how can that be done if we ban everything that can be cheated?..
Honesty is what's needed.
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If someone had a genesis controller with a sticky C button that caused the input to flicker in and out rapidly, letting them do fast spindashes very easily, are we going to ban spindashing?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize the blast GLITCH was an intentional facet of this game's design.
Hilariously, all such a rule would do is make the divide DEEPER, since PC players need all the damn help they can get to pull off this stupid glitch.
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Okay, since when have we ever cared about what was an intentional facet of design or not? It's in the game and that's the only thing that matters.
And no. No it wouldn't.
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I guess we can keep the blast effect glitch, but ban modded controllers. I just have one question though, how can we make sure if someone is using a modded controller or not? Do we make them submit a picture of them using the controller? Do we make someone make a video of their time AND their hands? I just don't know how we can keep the leaderboards clean. One last thing, do we all agree that using items like rubber bands or spoons to mash buttons should be banned?
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Do PC players use controllers?
Further, worn controllers are a ton easier to run with (You think a stiff controller lets you 6-tap easily?), and as long as the input is still human I support it. Spoons/nails, combat sticks, or anything else.
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Well my controller is worn out as well, but i can still do it with a new controller easily, i dont mind if the glitches get banned altogether.
However i think that banning it will result in killing the competition at all.
Seperate charts could be a solution.
But the online charts are already broken.
Aitamen had a good point as long as the input is human then its OK.
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i dont think there is a way to check if people dont cheat, some people dont have ways to record there hands, it requires honesty,
And rubber bands and anything like that should be banned, because its just as bad as a modded controller in my opinion.
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I think banning worn controllers is as stupid as banning 3rd party controllers or banning widescreen TV's because they don't have the rounding effect in the edges.
I personally even have multiple controllers for different games because that's what I'm comfortable with. Getting used to a new controller takes a while even. As long as it's not as broken as e.g. pressing left+right in AlttP or Zelda 2 where you actually NEED a broken or modded controller I think it should NOT be banned.
Either way there's no conceivable way to control and enforce if someones controller is worn or even modded so the whole argument is kind of redundant.
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I personally think it should be banned.
Why? Well, this story should help.
I was playing Generations with my 2nd cousin... well I was playing by myself in the regular game, online, however, we were competing on City Escape, Act 2, on the 30 second trial; I currently hold the lead. I was on the hub world w/ Classic Sonic trying my damn hardest to execute the glitch over and over and over etc. At one point I managed to do it, but that was it.
The glitch is too hard to execute without a worn or modded controller. I saw a video teaching you how to do it, and I tried to copy it, but that one time was the only time I was able to do it. Personally, this method practically eliminates the competition to gamers who can never execute it.
And that's why it should be banned.
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This is so stupid.
In absolutely no other game would "Ban controllers that are too worn" be a statement taken seriously. The thought of a first-party, 100% legitimate controller suddenly becoming illegitimate because it's worn out "too much" should give you guys a good idea JUST how stupid this glitch really is.
Just ban the damn glitch and get it over with. Then maybe you'll get actual competition on Generations again.
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Ban something that will always happen over time no matter what if you don't buy a new controller? You really couldn't track these things in the first place, unlike turbo controllers. Yeah... No, it's just not realistic. Any more posts on this is rather idiotic, in my opinion
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Man dont know why this had to be brought up agaim, ban the glitch? thats a crazy idea, i dont think anyone wants to go through the charts and pick out when d-speed/m-speed was used, its just not possible same goes for unleashed, to ban it the charts would have to be nuked and everyone would have to start a fresh, which cant happen. Complaints have been that its so hard unless you use a rubber band or something, almost impossible, well first off this is coming from a banned member, so I dont know why they are trying to change the rules (yer i got that alot too when i was banned :P) and second of all its easy to pull off, the upright method i get virtually every time, and the tilt forward i get most of the time too, just practice, you dont ban something just because its very hard, otherwise loads of glitches would have to be banned on tsc cos they're very tough to pull off.
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You guys know this thread is well over a year old, right? Thread necromancy is a sin.